Official XY Ubers Shadow Tag Suspect Voting

[Miridy]

Shadow Tag: Ban
Before this Suspect Test I wanted Shadow Tag to stay here, but after some matches, I have come to the conclusion that it needs to go.
Of course, Uber's philosophy is that Ubers is the competitive metagame with the least amount of bans, actually it doesn't have banned pokemon, and the remaining bans are the "standard" during Pokemon's history and Moody and Endless Battle Clause.
Now, endless battle clause was simply stupid and uncompetitive to the bone, much more than shadow tag, though it should be added that it had less chances to be effective compared to shadow tag.
Moody, just like the OHKO clause is simply put, pure luck, something that players cannot control, and this is something that should be important here.
Of course, shadow tag is by no means luck based, but what it does is take all the player's control in a match.
Switching has always been an important factor on a game, if not the most important, shadow tag however makes you as mindless as an in-game AI, you cannot switch, you just wait until Gengar kills a member of your team, one who can be crucial in the battle, or that Gothitelle charms/Double Team you and then set ups calm mind, without you capable of doing everything.
It doesn't matter how much good you are, shadow tag cannot be stopped, using an entire team with Shed Shell is something foolish, and should not be considered seriously by any competitive battlers, that's why, the metagame adapts to certain threats, but shadow tag will always remain, it doesn't matter the level of centralization.
And that, is a problem.
Uncompetitive to me means "something that no matter your level of experience you cannot fight it".
Luck things obviously fit this description, but while Shadow Tag isn't luck reliant it's still the same.
For argument sake, let's say that you have Defensive Groudon with Leftovers, earthquake, sr, roar stone edge/fire punch, while your opponent has mega gengar (mega evolved already), the set is the taunt destiny bond.
Now, exactly, what is THE RIGHT choice that differentiate an experienced player from a new one?
You have three options here, use stone edge, in order to weaken Gengar, use roar in order to free yourself from shadow tag, use eq in order to kill him.
Well then, the first option just stalls the thing, actually it's even worse, because if your opponent used taunt and it's still alive he can destiny bond you later, if you use Roar the opponent MIGHT taunt you and the kill you with Destiny Bond, if you use Earthquake the opponent MIGHT kill you with Destiny Bond.
See a pattern? Both the options have a positive and negative outcome, the problem though, is that both choices (for you, and your opponent) are fair play, you pray that you get the "right" move, but in truth there is no "right move" to make here, it just gives someone the illusion to be a great player, while it was just lucky to guess right, guess because both options were fair play, or in other words a coinflip.
THIS situation is toxic to the competitiveness of a Metagame.
While Gengar might seem the major offender of Shadow Tag, Gothitelle, though rare (usage does not equal viability, anyways) still requires a mention:
Gothitelle has a very acceptable bulk, with Shadow tag she can trap many defensive pokemons you can usually find in stall or balanced teams, and then start setting up calm mind, while still able to use charm oi, even worse, Double Team, withouth too much troubles, once again, because you cannot switch out.
At this point, attacking her is even worse than a coinflip, and while almost any pokemon can use Double Team, Gothitelle can trap an easy target and set up without too much problems, heal bell and rest also helps her against status, majority of non-offensive teams are doomed from the get- go.



Ok, I'll finish things here since I believe I'm starting to annoy the Council lol, the Shadow Tag ban here in Uber sets an unprecedented situation, that much is true, but Uber started in RBY as just a Banlist, however things changed, they evolve just like Pokemons for lack of a better word, Uber is no more "just a ban list" it is a Tier, with a competent playerbase, the tier itself should be enjoyable and competitive (as in, fighting the UNcompetitive, not the vague "broken" concept) to the players.

 

[Haunted Diamond]

Shadow tag: Ban

With powerhouses like xerneas and e killer who can sweep a team in a blink of an eye if their dedicated checks are gone, shadow tag plays a very important role in the ubers metagame: it can remove the said check and let your powerhouse have a clean sweep. For example mega gengar removes klefki and then geoxern can pull off a sweep with a little difficulty, or gothitelle removes your arceus rock and then ho oh runs through your defensive team. I believe this is a good enough reason to ban shadow tag because it takes control out of the game.

 

[Spyro Chris]

I am going to vote for: ban

The reason behind this, is that after about 250-300 (maybe more) battles using Gengar-Mega, getting vote requirements with 3 accounts and/or various people using Gengar-Mega against me, I can say that a person who was losing could use shadow tag to "cheaply" come back while being outplayed. My main point is: I hate it when I outplay someone and they win because of Shadow Tag. And it feels so cheap when I win because of it. A notable example is (in the case in which Gengar was already evolved beforehand): Gengar-Mega goes 1vs1 against an Arceus Extremekiller at x4, simply uses Destiny Bond and takes it out. Another example would be the simple case of any fat mon like Lugia, Groudon, etc., in which, all what Gengar-Mega has to do is: trap them, use Taunt, then Destiny Bond. About Gothitelle and Wobbuffet: Gothitelle is a threat because it can trap any mon it can set up on, go on doing so, then wipe out the rest of the team. Very cheap and uncompetitive. Wobbuffet is a little bit of a different story, more like "hit and run". You go in, trap a mon you don't like, use Counter/Mirror Coat/Destiny Bond on it and that's it. Not to mention using Encore on someone who is setting up, while at the same time not letting them get away. The aforementioned examples, in my opinion, feel like cheap wins and require little to no skill to perform. To me, this is not what the metagame is all about. It should be about winning because of skill, not some ability or "trick" that one uses. That's not to say there aren't ways to counter Gengar-Mega and Shadow Tag in general (Gothitelle and Wobbuffet are considerable threats too, but, in my opinion, Gengar is hands-down the most menacing mon), but the whole nature of Shadow Tag feels uncompetitive for the reasons mentioned above.

 

[Jho]

Shadow Tag: Do Not Ban

Shadow Tag isn't over centralising or "OP" and its extremely predictable as 90% of the time, Goth is coming in on your teams support mon. Just bring in an offensive Deo variant, Ogre, Ray or just about anything that isn't a support and both ST users are forced to switch out or die. Whilst it's a great ability to remove something that sweeps / walls your team, it has its draw backs just like everything else that seems "broken" in the game which is why I don't think it should be banned, as their are just too many counter plays and things you can do to prevent getting trapped and swept.

 

[jrp]

After talking a bit with some of the ubers players (shrang, sweep and melee mewtwo) through various mediums, and based off my own personal philosophy, I'm going to vote to ban shadow tag. I strongly dislike things that remove vital mechanics, and the ability to switch pokemon mid-battle is one of the fundamental mechanics of the game. Shadow Tag enables relative ease in trapping defensive pokemon not named giratina, allowing the user to potentially pull off a sweep with little effort, and in general, I view it to be unhealthy to the metagame. Gothitelle in particular is able to pull off things like Calm Mind + Double Team that it would not be able to do otherwise, and while Shrang brings up a good point that evasion might be the issue, Gothitelle is unique in being able to pull the set off. Certainly, we can blame the set on evasion, but all of the other sets it is capable of using (Tickle + pursuit user, trick room + calm mind, etc) all involve a common denominator: a pokemon with shadow tag. Gengar is able to use perish song as well as Taunt + Destiny Bond to force the opposing pokemon to KO it, allowing the user to easily remove a threatening pokemon. Again, these two situations share the common denominator of Shadow Tag.

Being unable to switch out of Shadow Tag to a pokemon that has a favorable matchup is what breaks the ability in my opinion. I've considered the so-called ubers philosophy of allowing everything, but I cannot vote in favor of something that so blatantly unbalances the game.

So without further ado...

Shadow Tag: Ban.

 

[FlyingIsOP]

No Ban

I believe Shadow Tag to be overpowered rather than uncompetitive like many others. What I consider uncompetitive is Moody and Swagger which turns the game in to a luck fest. This is not the same case with Shadow Tag. Yes it hinders team building but that's just the nature of the Uber tier. Same as how Xerneas almost forces you to run priority and a check to it.

 

[M'joe'ra]

Shadow tag: Do Not Ban

My reasoning behind my vote is that although shadow tag is a very powerful threat in the metagame and does force the player to make more aggressive plays, it can still be predicted and played around. What makes shadow tag different from something like swagger is that with swagger the other player could use it and there would be no real way for you to play around it. Plus if the opponent switches in their STAGer on the wrong poke, the poke it switched in on can use that turn to set up and possibly sweep. Along the lines of perish trapping with shadow tag, from my experience I noticed that it was extremely difficult to perish trap an opponent with just 1 poke, it usually took at least 2 pokes to allow the perish trapping to succeed and those are 2 valuable teamslots taken up and basically making it a 4 or 5 v 6 match.

 

[Serpi]

Shadow Tag: Ban

My main reason for this is that stag limits teambuilding and options in an actual battle to an extent where it's not funny anymore. Now while there are other pokemon in Ubers that appear to do the same (kyogre, ekiller, xern), there are always ways to outplay these sweepers by bringing checks and clever switching. This is not possible with stag for very obvious reasons. The only ways to prevent getting screwed over by stag are using full-shed shell/ghost type/HO-teams or win every 50/50 with a stag-mon involved while the opponent only has to win one to get a very important mon on your team out of the way. These solutions are either unviable (besides shitty HO but who wants that?) or require incredible high luck which is why I think that Shadow Tag is uncompetitive.

 

[Hack]

Shadow Tag: Do Not Ban

I will skip all theory bullshit that has deviated from development of many would-be-good players this year and focus on the empirical evidence I have gathered throughout playing.

Now I will talk about how I have seen shadow tag users work against teams and for my own:

Gengar is just as hard to handle as Kyogre, Xerneas, Ekiller, Mewtwo and even Ho-oh. Against offense, Gengar is quite lackluster. Metagame has adapted and removing the competitive element of switching doesn't help much when a HO team hardly needs to do so anyway. Taking into account two both players being high level and teams are good, then at best, Gengar is suiciding on a mon in this match up. Against balance and stall Gengar has more room. The way I see it however, is that stall teams are built with great caution. Just like preventing oneself from being swept by scarf Kyogre, a stall can somewhat prevent Gengar's impact by either using mons that aren't prone to being trapped or by using a pursuit user. Now, the pursuit tech is mildly flawed as Gengar has ways around it- but taking a route to escape pursuit means giving up something else. It is always a trade-off at the building table and I feel a lot of arguments are coming from the fact that the shadow tag user doesn't have to build a good team. Match up has always been a flaw in this game, and it's simply impossible for a team to lack weaknesses. Even teams with Mega Gengar. Don't get me wrong, it is an absoulte beast of a mon that shapes the meta- but I do fail to see how it translates to uncompetitiveness on a larger scale than Xerneas being a good mon, for example. I understand in theory that preventing swiching and trapping mons weak to it without effort is quite stupid. What I don't understand is why stuff, in my experience, always plays out differently in practice. A lot of things can happen during a game and from what I have seen, I and my teams don't lose to Mega Gengar more than Xerneas, Ekiller or Ho-oh. It just feels damn inconsistent to ban something because a buzzword and theory when I have seen differently in practice.

Wob is wob and there isn't much to say about it, it's not uncompetitive in a any sense (unless you really wanna tweak

Gothitelle is arguably a different story, but it all came down to a point when people started preparing. I'm fully aware that Gothitelle can work against many of my teams but at the same time it will be absolute dead weight against others. I'd go as far as saying that Gothitelle is a gamble for the user and that is why I haven't used it much. Simply put, many arguments have again deviated from that the user of the Shadow Tag mon doesn't need to build a good team. It is hard to fit a mon that has absolutely 0 defensive synergy on a team that should be able to check all relevant threats in this meta. Moreso, it became very clear after people started making changes in their builds or new teams that actually limited what Gothitelle could do against them. This means that a Goth user will always gamble with match up. Maybe that is uncompetitive and maybe I will lose a game once in a while because I brought something weak to it- but why is that so different from bringing a team weak to scarf Kyogre and strong vs everything else and just happen to face that very set? I can go on and on about teams that I have seen and built that are actually making Gothitelle a laughing stock, but honestly I just want to say that using Gothitelle is a match up gamble for the user as much as using a Goth weak team is for another. This doesn't prevent it from being uncompetitive, however, but due to my experience in that it has fallen in usage and hype, I feel like I can do with having this in the meta for the sake of preserving Wob and Gengar since I do not consider them uncompetitive.

I reckon discussing ORAS is taboo but I also feel an unban would be needed for the sake of preserving "the least amounts of bans possibly" -policy that Ubers has concerning bans.

Overall I feel like many players aren't looking at teambuilding like the double edged sword it is. Just because your Shadow Tag build will auto-win one match up doesn't mean it's a good team.And good teams are going to be needed to be consistent in the long run. A good player will also be better in the long run. You lose to match up occasionally, but a good player will always be better than a bad one in the long run. And that's how it has always been in this game- anyone can win a singular game and there are many other mindless ways to do it.

I simply conclude that through empirical evidence, I don't feel a Shadow Tag ban will "fix" the meta. I saw the games in the test tours we had, I saw nothing that screamed "oh this meta is so much better now". In fact, I do actually enjoy the meta at the moment and it might seem strange that a good player isn't complaining but that's fair and simple subjective opinion. And that is coming from the guy who never used Goth in a tour game.

 

[Lord Alphose]

Shadow Tag: Do Not Ban

After following the discussion thread, I found that my vote was incredibly split. Both side had really good arguments. When I started laddering, I was leaning more towards banning it. However, my experience on the ladder changed that. The major offenders of Shadow Tag are MGar and Gothitelle. Although I didn't really see them on opposing teams while laddering, I did use both of them in an attempt to understand what they feel like. While it was cool to be able to think something along the lines of: I need to remove that Pokemon to be able to sweep. Remove. Sweep. And that worked really well...in the lower ladder. After I had my "honeymoon phase" of laddering, I faced the problem of actual smart players. And it Shadow Tag just wasn't as effective as it had been initially. Players were smart enough to see my goal. I wanted to sweep with Kyogre, so I needed Palkia out of my way. So, they predicted switches. Their ability to choose, predict, and outplay was in no way impeded by my ability to hold something in.

That's why my vote changed to do not ban. In theory, Shadow Tag probably is too uncompetetive for the tier. However, when it comes down to, it's all just back to the old mind games and predictions. To quote some guy who's argument I really liked, "[Shadow Tag] allows you to remove key threats from your opponents team. However, that is no different than any other Pokemon, except in scope. Using a strategy that revolves around picking off specific Pokemon so other team members can excel is one of the most basic types of strategies."

 

[Asterya]

Shadow Tag: Ban
Seriously shadow tag is waaay restricting teambuilding. I personally think that if we want a balanced metagame (for all guys who will say "olol ubers is a banlist we don't ban anything" i will have to say that NO, UBERS IS A METAGAME AND NEEDS A BANLIST TOO. It's like you said OU is a banlist because it contains all pokemon banned in UU! We already banned swagger because of it's uncompetitiveness and we need to ban STAG too!). STAG is generally used to support a winning condition and to remove threats especially Gothitelle that easily removes defog arceus versions bar Ghostceus. This is really huge for the metagame and it's almost a "hey let's use shadow tag and get free wins" between players. This is why it's uncompetitive, unhealthy and makes the metagame less enjoyable..

 

[NightJackal]

Shadow Tag: Ban

Shadow Tag just gives you way too many options while greatly reducing those of your opponents. With Shadow Tag, you control the flow of the battle before it even starts; anything your opponent does is directed by the fact that one wrong move will result in his EKiller/Xerneas/w/e counter being trapped and eliminated, with the aforementioned monster ready to crush the rest of your team. Meanwhile, you can make more daring plays and exploit other options and openings that your opponent won't or can't consider due to the blade hanging over their heads.
To add to this, there's really no effective way to prepare for Shadow Tag. Let's face it, you can't run a full VoltTurn team in Ubers and Shed Shell has so many flaws that its perk to avoid Shadow Tag is minor. One way or another, if your opponent knows what he's doing, you will spend an entire match trying to avoid getting trapped. If you make one mistake or are forced into a trapping situation, it's more or less decided. The Shadow Tag user forces an 1 on 1 that is almost always favorable to them. They CAN and WILL remove at least one Pokemon in your team, maybe two if your mistake was more severe, and after this happens, you're probably in just the right position to be completely screwed over.
Shadow Tag is uncompetitive, not because it's overcentralizing and limiting teambuilding, but it because it limits the game itself. Pretty much there are two things you can do, bite your nails and cry. Shadow Tag not only forces unfavorable situations, it makes them completely inescapable. Therefore, I vote "Ban" for Shadow Tag.

 

[jas61292]

Shadow Tag: Do Not Ban

To me personally, this is vote is base mostly on the fact that I have seen no evidence whatsoever that Shadow Tag meets any criteria that would be worth banning for. As I'm sure everyone who has been following these test has heard many times by now, this is Ubers, so we should not be banning something for simply being overpowered. Everything in Ubers is broken in that respect. Hell, depending on who you ask, you might be told that that is the entire point of the tier. No, rather, the arguments supposedly brought up as for why Shadow Tag should be banned is because of its supposed uncompetitiveness. While normally that term is used to describe luck based things, from what I have seen from proponents of this ban, the idea here is that Shadow Tag is uncompetitive because it takes away player agency. I would very much have to disagree with this sentiment. While player agency is certainly limited during the turns that Shadow Tag is in play, I do not see anything about this that is the slightest bit uncompetitive. Both players in any given battle know exactly whether or not the opponent has a Pokemon with Shadow Tag, and while it may temporarily reduce player agency, it is not a surprise move that the player it is being used against cannot foresee. The way they play the battle before, during, and after Shadow Tag is in play, determines the effectiveness of the ability. In this regard, Shadow Tag is no different than other abilities. You can argue that it heightens the importance of decisions throughout the battle, but if anything that could be said to make the game as a whole more competitive, not less.

However, even if you agree with the above, some people may still say that the fact that it removes any player agency at all makes it uncompetitive enough for a ban. I again would disagree. It is an indisputable fact that players under the effects of Shadow Tag can still make decisions. Agency is not gone, just limited. And, it is also an indisputable fact that Shadow Tag is far from the only feature in Pokemon that limits player agency to a degree. Obviously there are Arena Trap and Magnet Pull, but there are also partial and full trapping moves, move blocking moves (ie Disable or Imprison), and more. All of these, to one degree or another, limit what players can do. And yet, I have yet to see anyone argue that something like Disable is uncompetitive enough for a ban. So, if Shadow Tag is to be worthy of a ban, but some of these are not, then it must be because Shadow Tag either does the same thing as them, but has a greater extent that pushes it over the top, or because the way it limits agency is different enough that its very nature can be seen as uncompetitive when the others are not, or some combination of the two. I already addressed how I don't think the extent of limiting switching is uncompetitive in the previous paragraph, so I won't repeat that. Furthermore, with regard to it doing something different, the idea that limiting switching is uncompetitive while limiting moves is not is something I find utterly absurd. Moves are the single most important part of Pokemon battles. If limiting your agency with regard to moves is not uncompetitive, than how can limiting anything else be?

Switching, while a critical part of strategy for the competitive game of Pokemon, is not necessary for the game to function. You could very well have a competitive game where neither player switches. That is the key failing, in my opinion, with regard to the pro-ban argument. They fail to show why what is being stopped by Shadow Tag is necessary for the competitive game, instead making claims that I believe are more suited to trying to prove that Shadow Tag is flat out broken or unfun. And while I will not necessarily disagree with either of those things, the former is, once again, arguably the point of the Uber tier, while the latter is subjective opinion, and not something to base tiering policy on.

As an additional note, I personally believe that Ubers should be an environment where all forms of all Pokemon should be available for use. If Shadow Tag were to be banned, this would no longer be the case, and I would be disappointed for that reason. While I would be voting not to ban regardless of whether this was the case or not, philosophically, I could not get behind this ban for this reason, even if I did not believe without a doubt that Shadow Tag does not deserve a ban.

 

[Lemonade]

Abstain

I don't have enough experience with Shadow Tag at a high level to make a decision. Shadow Tag does remove choice from the player, but I haven't experienced it to a degree I would consider it uncompetitive. I see the potential for it to do so though, but once again, it's hard to tell when I haven't experienced it myself hence abstaining.

 

[Lustiger Lega]

Shadow Tag: Do Not Ban

first of all please excuse some language mistakes, i am not a native english speaker.

to decide what to vote i asked myself the following questions:

1st: is shadow tag uncompetitive?
2nd: does shadow tag influence the metagame badly?
3rd: is the banishment of shadow tag accordable with the tier Uber and its function?

1st: this is the most difficult question for me. the word "competitive" is somehow inaccurate defined and gives space for different points of view. moves or abilities which increase the luck factor of the game significantly like swagger, minimize or moody make the game more uncompetitive, because more often the luckier player will win and not the btter. of course pokemon will never be free of luck, but people are trying to make skill more important by those bans. i am not a big fan of additional clauses to the original game, but of course i see, why people want to make the game more competitive by banning this stuff.
shadow tag however is not a luck depending ability. it decreases the opponent's options in his turn, yes. defensive pokemon can be knocked out without any chance to escape. people who are playing stall for example have to find ways to deal with shadow tag. but personally i think this is also a part of pokemon and especially in ubers, that you have to find ways against strategies. on the one hand players can get an extreme disadvantage if an important pokemon becomes trapped by shadow tag, but on the other hand this ability makes these people think more creatively to work against shadow tag. so i cannot clearly answer to the question if shadow tag is uncompetitive (however if i had to, i'd rather say no), but i do not think that it is overpowered as you can find many answers and of course more offensive teams do not have big problems with it.

2nd: my answer to this is definitely no. i am a fan of the faster varied battles which mostly appear if both players are using offensive teams. stall is much more influenced by shadow tag than offense because stall can sometimes easily be breaked if just one pokemon is knocked out which can happen if it is trapped. i think that shadow tag has a nice influence to the uber metagame and i am even happy that it is a part of it. making offense more attractive i hope that shadow tag will stay in uber.

3rd: the answer of this question is the most important reason why i vote as i do. with the ban of shadow tag in ubers we would actually ban a pokemon, mega-gengar. i know gothitelle is a mentionable trapper, too, but at least this whole pokemon would not be banned though it would be absolutely useless in this tier. by banning mega gengar ubers would start a bantier of a bantier. i like to see at least one tier whose rules are not influenced by usage statistics or suspect tests, at least until now. this is why i hope that the majority of the voters votes no ban. although mega gengar wouldn't be banned itself but "just its ability" it would be that one pokemon which changes the purpose of this tier, which i do not want to see.

 

[Focus]

Shadow Tag is an uncompetitive element in the game in the sense that it severely restricts the opposing player's options while the ability is active. I don't believe that trapping abilities are inherently problematic, but the additions of XY have changed things quite a bit. In particular, Shadow Tag has accentuated problems with the metagame like evasion abuse and the importance of team matchup. That being said, I am not basing my vote on the capacity of Shadow Tag to make Ubers uncompetitive. I am basing it on my experience on the ladder during the suspect test, however suboptimal that metagame may be. As it stands, Gothitelle is almost nowhere to be found, and Mega Gengar is a powerful threat that can be prepared for. A ban on Shadow Tag would still be an indirect ban on Mega Gengar, and so I am being even more lenient than usual here; I would be much more willing to get rid of Shadow Tag if Mega Gengar had a different ability option. Disallowing this Pokémon forme entirely from competitive play for reasons only tangentially related to random chance doesn't sit well with me, even more so than letting Shadow Tag roam free in Ubers.

Shadow Tag: Do Not Ban

 

[Geopolitics]

Shadow Tag: Do Not Ban

To me, Shadow Tag does not fall under the definition “uncompetitive”. Looking at precedents (which I think should be weighed very heavily) the stuff banned from Ubers due to uncompetitiveness has been stuff that removes key elements from the player’s control and offers no counter play. Examples of this being Swagger: you can’t outplay the coin flip. Swagger was banned because it removed all skill from the game, but I think that Shadow Tag does the exact opposite. At its essence, I believe that even though Shadow Tag removes a player’s ability to switch, there is plenty of room for counter play. The level of competitiveness “removed” by Shadow Tag is not enough to make the gameplay uncompetitive as it still allows the player a large amount of control of the situation. You can Shed Shell stuff, double, and have the control to switch before Shadow Tag comes into play. I firmly believe that when you compare Shadow Tag to previous Ubers bans, that Shadow Tag has enough counter play and ultimately gives the player enough control that they can win despite the presence of Shadow Tag.

 

[accidental_racist]

Shadow Tag: Do Not Ban
So where do i start, well due to being one of the worse people here, i have a lot of experince with the low ladder, a place where stuff like shadow tag is not abused and people are running blizzard on mega k, now this may sound bad, but i believe that since there are many low skill players they are in the majority and thus they should be considered in the vote, now i realize so far this post doesnt have anything to do with why shadow tag is op or not so let me begin.

Shadow tag in its simplest form is not OP, mega gengar (one of the most used stag users) cant really tray pokes in the begging since it has to mega evolve in one turn, also s tag allows ghost users such as aegilash (a very effective counter) that can force switches, also i really can say much on goth since i think personal experince with mons is important, and that regurgitating what other pros say isnt really gonna help u guys decide on if this should be banned, on the point beacuse of anecdoatal lack of usage i really cant say much on goth. (also idk what happened to the font here) but i would like the conclude that smogon should not ban stag due to the fact that they are counters out there

 

[Sweep]

Shadow Tag: Ban

My biggest issue with Shadow Tag has always been the lack of legitimate checks to many of the top threats in the metagame, such as Refresh EKiller, Choice Scarf Kyogre, and Geomancy Xerneas. For example, the only really solid checks to Kyogre in this metagame are Palkia (particularly the overrated yet common SDef Palkia), Grass Arceus, Blissey, Dialga, Gastrodon, and Water Arceus. Shakier offensive checks like Rayquaza and Zekrom exist but these really dislike switching in and typically only work on offensively-inclined teams. All of these Pokemon can be used as set-up bait by Gothitelle, with the exception of Dialga carrying Roar, and Gengar can simply Destiny Bond to remove a Pokemon from the field of play. Gengar does need a turn to Mega Evolve before its ability kicks in, but Gothitelle does not. Because Shadow Tag prevents the foe from being able to switch out, they cannot save their Kyogre check from the trapper, and many teams (outside of Stall, which needs Pursuit to prevent more than one Pokemon from getting trapped) cannot afford to carry more than one strong Kyogre answer. The same line of thinking applies to Geomancy Xerneas; although checks such as Jirachi and Aegislash are not prone to Gothitelle, the former is beaten by Shadow Ball Gengar, and Bronzong is murdered by both. The inability to switch (one of the key mechanics of the game), coupled with the lack of viable checks to the top threats in the metagame & the ease of which STAG users can remove these checks leads me to vote ban for this suspect test.

 

[steve_man]

Vote: Do Not Ban

Reasoning: I don't believe Shadow Tag deserves the boot for many reasons. The question that everybody seems to be asking: "Is Shadow Tag uncompetitive?" My answer is no. Take Swagger and Evasion for example. Those are defined as uncompetitive because it works the RNG / system and randomizes the game itself. When played correctly, Shadow Tag does remove your opponent's "choice" of Pokemon and probably will take it out or at least turn it into a 50/50, it wasn't the game that did removed my opponent's choice, it was MY decision / educated guess. I also do not deem it uncompetitive because both my opponent and myself have the choice to play it. Because of the reasons listed above, I do not consider Shadow Tag uncompetitive.

 

[Jezebelda]

Shadow Tag: Do Not Ban

As I understand, this vote effectively boils down to the issue of whether shadow tag is uncompetitive in the current (xy) metagame. I don't think so for reasons I'll make clear in the following paragraph. To begin with, one should have an understanding of the word uncompetitive. Having read through both the gengarite and the shadow tag suspect tests I've seen lots of definitions thrown around, some coming from players more experienced than others. Ultimately, I decided not to base myself on a specific definition, because until the tier agrees unanimously or near-unanimously on a definition of the word, my vote (and essentially the entire issue) will remain subjective because it will be based on such or such player's definition or uncompetitive. Instead I choose, as others have done, to examine various other banned game elements which have been banned, I presume, on the basis of their uncompetitiveness. Let's start with one hit KO moves (sheer cold, fissure, etc.). These moves are banned for a specific reason: the fact that a beginner playing his first game could beat a high-level tournament player using a team composed of solely scarf kyogre with sheer cold if luck was in his favour. A metagame with one hit KO moves would thus simply be a luck-based, skill-less metagame. Similarly, sleep with no limit set on the number of mons that can be put to sleep also leads to a skill-less metagame because sleep simply renders a pokemon incapable of functioning and thus leaves the player with the choice of a) Giving the opponent at best one free turn most likely more b) Switching to another pokemon and putting themselves in the same situation again (assuming the opponent re-used a sleep move) with no skilful choice to be made. Finally, a more recent uncompetitive ban, that of swagger also boils down to whether a pokemon hits itself in its confusion or not, once again a situation where the player simply can't choose a "skilful" option.

Now the question remains: can shadow tag be called uncompetitive for the same reasons? In my opinion, no. STag simply provides the player using it with an incredibly broken support option giving them the opportunity to trap a key pokemon from the opponent's team in favorable circumstances. Unlike the other cases examined, it does not remove the skill gap between players; instead the choice of running certain moves on the player running mega Gengar or gothitelle-weak pokemons is left entirely up to them even if it means having giving up better options (ex: punishment on arceus-forms) or even completely giving up on a certain pokemon and restructuring their team to fit that pokemon's roles on other team members that are less mega-gengar weak. Ultimately, even if we are left with a metagame where every team packs a shadow-tag pokemon and we are left with a metagame that boils down to who can trap the other's kyogre/extremekiller/xerneas/any broken sweeper check or counter faster, this remains an argument for centralisation, not uncompetitiveness.

The second part of my reasoning for not banning shadow tag is the pokemon themselves. Mega-Gengar, Gothitelle and Wobbuffet are all pokemon with very real weaknesses and limitations. Mega -Gengar takes up one's mega slot, is very frail and easily worn down and the instance of balanced teams often fails to deliver synergy and a proper switch-in for some of the tier's biggest threats, which means the other five pokemon have to take more hits and thus are more likely to crumble down to an offensive pokemon punching holes in the team. Gothitelle is very nearly useless against hyper-offensive teams (aside from rare instances like sacking your groundon against scarf kyogre to provide gothitelle with a setup opportunity and the occasional heal/trick room to disrupt momentum) although extremely good against stall/some balanced teams. Finally wobbuffet often provides free setups to sweepers but at the cost of becoming fodder for certain pokemons should one choose the wrong move (mirror coat/counter), notably mixed pokemons. For these reasons, I believe shadow tag not to be uncompetitive, and that it should thus not be banned.

 

[Legitimate Username]

Shadow Tag: Ban

I already wrote a paragraph on my thoughts regarding the last suspect test, and not a single thing about my opinion has changed since then, except now it includes stuff about how stupid Gothitelle is too. Shadow Tag prevents opponents from being able to freely switch, severely limiting their options in a game. I don't get how people could see that as anything other than inherently uncompetitive. If the Shadow Tag user manages to trap what it wants, which it will be able to with extreme ease almost all of the time, the opponent will have literally no way of dealing with it other than to sacrifice what has been trapped (usually a key counter to an opposing sweeper), which is especially bad if it sets up to +6 with Calm Mind, something that Gothitelle can do quite easily. Of course it's not hard to get rid of a Shadow Tag user once you've lost the threat that it trapped and you can freely pick a favorable match-up, but by then, what's the point? The Shadow Tag user has already done its job, so it's not like it matters. The fact that Shadow Tag allows certain Pokémon to choose match-ups in a way that they will never be in an unfavourable situation is a really big deal. There exists no counterplay to a Shadow Tag Pokémon trapping something, meaning that a game will often be determined by factors that lie beyond a player's control so that skill level effectively doesn't matter. This is having a very obvious negative effect on the quality of the metagame. There is no way of stopping a Shadow Tag user from completing its job once it has trapped its target, no matter how skilled a player is. That's a massive problem if I've ever heard one. It needs to be banned as soon as possible, plain and simple.

 

[Melodic Dystopia]

Shadow Tag: Do not Ban
It just seems to me that people are still mad over Gengarite and they don't want to admit that they lost in the first suspect test. Shadow Tag only encompasses Gengar-Mega because Wobbuffet isn't used in Ubers and while Gothitelle is used it only beats balance Arceus. I just feel it accomplishes a small niche, but others may see it as something that detriments their game. In my opinion, the only good user is Gengar-Mega, as Goth hasn't caused me any problems. Basically what I said in last suspect test: we don't ban things from Ubers. It's alright that the people who found Gengar annoying pushed a first test, but this second test is just redundant and I have no doubt in my mind that it will again result in a no ban.

 

[Clone]

Shadow Tag: Do Not Ban

I've been following the thread rather closely since my post in it, and honestly, I have seen literally zero convincing arguments as to why STag is uncompetitive. I've seen plenty that try to make it look like so, but only strengthen the argument that it's overpowered. Simply put, STag relies on conscious player choices and has nothing to do with an RNG. You can argue that it takes the choice out of one players hands, which, while true, does not place the outcome on RNG, and instead relies on the opposing players choices. Simply put, unless something is RNG reliant and neither player has control of the situation, it cannot be considered uncompetitive and should not be banned under false claims. I understand that very few people actually enjoy how match up reliant Tag can be, but it shouldn't be banned because people don't like it; it should only be banned for being uncompetitive, which it's simply not.

 

[MMII]

Ban:
Shadow Tag breaks the interactivity of the game through it's inherent lack of counterplay, and therefore breaks the competition between two players.