Official XY Ubers Shadow Tag Suspect Voting

[Inflikted]

Shadow Tag: Ban

I'll c/p the post I made in the discussion thread as my paragraph

Reasoning

First off, laddering was 100 % useless to form an opinion on this matter as I haven't faced a single Gothitelle in 63 games and 70% of games were against Deoxys + Ekiller HO. I was anti-ban during the last suspect test as I thought Shadow Tag only caused mindgames that are inherent to the game we play. But after watching tour matches where shadow tag had a big impact on the outcome of the games, i changed my mind.

The bare presence of a STag user on the opposing team influences the player's move, because he has to win some mindgames in order not to let his only check to a threat get trapped. But the mindgames will almost always be in favor of the Shadow Tag user, because if the opponent loses one 50/50, he most likely loses the game. On the other hand, the player that uses the trapper can often try again later if he loses the 50/50, depending on various factors. And here is where the uncompetitive side of Shadow Tag lies. Furthermore, in a tier where everything is overpowered and the big threats have a limited pool of checks, teambuilding is restricted and having multiple answers to threats can be problematic. So trapping the only check to a threat has a much bigger impact than what happens for example in OU, where the metagame is generally more unkind to most trappers, while in ubers Gengar and Goth can prey upon support Arceus and other defensive mons to open up a sweep (or set up and sweep on their own in goth's case) with incredible ease. I agree with the proposal of the ban.

 

[capefeather]

Shadow Tag: Do Not Ban

In the interest of not repeating myself from the Gengarite vote: I very much entertained the notion that Shadow Tag was "the real problem" and I went in to see what kind of effect it had on a ladder that encouraged its abuse. The main thing I took out of the ladder was that people didn't seem to use any Shadow Tag Pokemon much other than Mega Gengar. My very few encounters with Gothitelle at least showed the variety of effects it could have on a match. As for me, I suppose I found it hard to put Shadow Tag Pokemon into my teams and justify keeping them there. The ladder had a lot of teams that didn't seem to care much about Shadow Tag, including heavily offensive teams and even some Baton Pass teams. Shadow Tag ultimately doesn't stick out to me as a particularly troublesome element in Ubers. At worst it possibly warped the ladder metagame to account for it, but then again the ladder metagame trends could be explained by it being a suspect ladder.

 

[Majickary]

Shadow Tag: Do Not Ban

I've seen no convincing argument for a STag ban. Simple as that. We went through lots of generations of Wobb trapping Scarfers and opening up a team for a sweep, and it wasn't a problem. We even had a generation where Sub Claws Dugtrio trapping choiced Pokemon using electric moves was a thing, and I didn't see anyone arguing for a Dugtrio ban even though getting trapped by Dugtrio is similar to getting trapped by Gothitelle (actually worse since you can crit your way through Gothitelle but no amounts of Thunder will kill Dugtrio). It could be said of Dugtrio that "you can't counter a Pokemon if you can't switch out" too and yet people looked at beating the resulting +6 Dugtrio behind a sub. I fail to see what's different about STag.

Now I suspect if I simply use that as a paragraph it will get rejected, so I'm going to write more.

The fact is that the two main STaggers (Gothitelle and Mega Gengar) are highly offensive Pokemon with generally weak defensive use, especially Gothitelle. This means the team with STag is essentially playing 5v6 until it gets to bring in the STagger. This is unlike other Pokemon such as Ho Oh and Kyogre who can sponge attacks just fine, sometimes even if they don't resist it. For every game in which the STagger works its magic there must also be games in which the STagger fails miserably. One therefore cannot conclude based only on the games in which STag works well. Since the STaggers can only trap certain Pokemon, one cannot just look at the turns in which it has trapped its target but also at the turns when the target is baited in before the STagger switches in safely. This isn't something trivially done, especially since Team preview exists. Finally many targets for both STaggers can be beaten with the correct move. For example Blissey can run Flamethrower to (usually) beat Mega Gengar, while support Arceus can run Roar to not lose to Gothitelle. These aren't super specialized moves that can only beat STag either. Yeah the STaggers can also run different moves to beat their would-be counters, but so what, if you bring Taunt on Goth and your opponent brings Punishment you still can't trap your target and therefore are playing 5v6 with STag.

If we look more specifically at the two main STaggers there are also more weaknesses. Mega Gengar takes a turn to mega evolve, and it's neither bulky nor has reliable recovery, so it can be bashed pretty hard on that turn. It's also the turn when you can switch to something that beats Mega Gengar. Yes, there are plenty of examples about how Mega Gengar can adapt its moveset to beat its "counters", but so what: if your Mega Gengar has moveset Taunt Destiny Bond Shadow Ball HP Fire, you can be pursuit trapped by Tar; if you drop HP Fire for Focus Blast, you can still be trapped by Scizor. Other things can also happen e.g. opponent switches to Kyogre on the turn you bring in Mega Gengar. It could outspeed and OHKO if it's Scarfed, alternatively it can do bad things if it's Specs. You can switch out but it brings your Kyogre counters closer to dying + you have to bring Mega Gengar in one more time on your target, which as mentioned is not easily done. Also worth pointing out is that Mega Gengar uses the mega slot. Maybe EKillers these days run Jolly 252 speed because Mega Gengar exists, but I don't think anyone will accept running no MMY checks because Mega Gengar exists.

The other main STagger is Gothitelle, which doesn't have the mega evolve problem but has plenty of other issues. It's even more useless than Mega Gengar defensively, and while its bulk is decent it is not good. Also 100% counters to Gothitelle exist. Even if you remove something with Gothitelle (after baiting out the target and getting Gothitelle in safely, not trivial) you could still have to deal with a threatening Pokemon like Yveltal running a fully offensive set getting a free switch in.

Finally this is the Ubers tier where broken Pokemon exist and are used. It's not the case that STag is the only way to win; in fact judged this way SR is more of a concern since every team has SR. In another tier there would be more of a case for a ban but not in Ubers. Maybe Gothitelle could be suspected under the endless battle clause because it takes so damn long to actually set up and kill the trapped target, who still has to attack because he could potentially crit his way through Gothitelle, but that's about it. So yeah, Shadow Tag, do not ban.

 

[LeapsFrog]

Shadow Tag: Do not Ban
I think Shadow Tag shouldn't be banned because it has many counters that are decently common such as Aegislash, Arceus-Ghost, and Giratina-Orgin. Ghosts are immune Shadow Tag and are Super effective against all Shadow Tag users which are all Psychic with the exception of Mega Gengar. Mega Gengar's Shadow Tag does not work on it's first turn so you can easily switch to your counter against Mega Gengar. Plus Gothitelle and Wobbuffet are not the best stat wise and can be defeated. Wobbuffet has loads of HP and but he is a has a horrible attack stat is most likely will only be using status moves with the exception of Counter which only works on Physical Attackers and does not work on ghost. Also almost every single team I faced had 1 Ghost on them. A Ghost Type is also really useful on Mega Kanga who is the Mega Uber that is being used the most after Mega Gengar. So pretty much Shadow Tag may feel like restricts you sometimes, but you can easily find ways around it and prevent it from sweeping or getting rid of most of your team easily, without having to use sets like Shed shell Blissey to counter Shadow Tag, and pretty much have a completly dedicated counter to 1 ability.

 

[Fixed]

NO BAN

Recycling my paragraph on Gengarite because it still applies here.

I don't consider Shadow Tag an uncompetitive ability, and as uncompetitiveness is the only reason to ban anything from Ubers, I think Shadow Tag should not be banned. Several arguments have been given during the suspect test to justify a Shadow Tag ban, but they have all been severely lacking. Firstly, there is the argument that Shadow Tag causes many 50-50s. This is undoubtedly true, but 50-50s are a huge part of Pokemon, occur in many situations even when Shadow Tag is not involved, and are in no way uncompetitive. Some might argue that the combination of Taunt and Destiny Bond on Mega Gengar gives rise to "pure 50-50s" where no risk/reward analysis is necessary. This is indeed the case, but such situations are no different than moves with imperfect accuracy, and hence not uncompetitive. A second argument is that the existence of Mega Gengar greatly amplifies team matchup, which would be uncompetitive because it gives weaker players a chance to beat stronger ones with a "lucky matchup". Team matchup is a real issue in gen 6 ubers and it would make some sense to ban the cause of it, but it is in no way clear that a Shadow Tag ban would solve anything in this regard. The changes to Defog have completely changed the offense/balance vs. stall matchup, and all ways of battling stall are significantly matchup reliant in a metagame without hazards. Hence I think it is not justified to ban Shadow Tag for this reason. Finally, there have been arguments that switching is a crucial part of the game and Shadow Tag would be uncompetitive as it prevents switching. I disagree with this, as I think the current metagame is very competitive and interesting with many different viable strategies. There have also been many other metagames that were perfectly fine with Shadow Tag users, like gen 4 Ubers where Wobbuffet is a serious threat. Some people have tried to strengthen this argument by pointing out that all previous bans in Ubers have been game elements that cannot be countered by switching out to the appropriate Pokemon, but I fail to understand why this fact is any relevant. It is very logical that all bans in Ubers share this characteristic as otherwise we would start running the appropriate counters instead of going for a ban, and it does not help to show that any game element which cannot be beaten by switching to a counter is banworthy.

 

[ApplepieFTW]

Shadow Tag: Ban

Because shadow tag limits switching, it removes one of the most fundamental mechanics of pokemon. If I can't switch out my pokemon, I'm significantly hindered in my ability to outplay the opponent, and make my own decisions. Shadow tag also creates 50/50's in which the tag abuse has a signifanct and unfair advantage. If I get the '50/50' wrong, I cannot correct it because my ability to switch is removed. Because I dont want to lose my check to a certain pokemon, I'm more likely to just sack random pokemon, or just play stupidly risky (read: my ability to equally compete gets hindered) to avoid me getting trapped by a stag user. I wrote this a few days ago, it will probably help illustrate my point.
Lets imagine this situation. You are player X. Player X has a team that consist of Pursuit Scizor and Arceus-Grass. Your opponent, player Y, has a team of scarf kyogre and mega gengar. Their kyogre is in against your scizor. Kyogre is a big threat to your team and it is likely to sweep you if it werent for your arceus grass. You also need your scizor to, lets say, check your opponents xerneas. Now in this scizor vs kyogre scenario, switching in arceus grass seems like a good play, but as you realise, your opponent has a mega gengar. This should make you hesitant to switch in your check to his win condition, but at the same time you need your scizor too. A 50/50, you may say. And at first sight it is one too, 1. switch to arceus on a surf, 2. stay in with scizor as player Y switches to gengar (win) 3. switch to arceus and get trapped by gengar 4. stay in with scizor on a surf (lose). The big difference with a regular 50/50 is (lets imaggine mgar didnt have shadow tag, but flower gift instead) that, if you get it wrong, you cannot correct it; your arceus is trapped. If shadow tag wouldnt affect the situation, you could simply switch out your arceus grass and go into a pokemon that can deal with mgar, but alas, you cannot. This is the negative part of the 50/50, you can't correct it, and cant adequately respond to the situation at hand. This is what people mean when they say stag removes autonomy, and takes the game out of the player's hands. And even if you get the 50/50 correct and switch in arceus grass on kyogre, do you realise what happens next turn? Your opponent has a free switch right back to mega gengar, so the same scenario happens again. If you stay in with your scizor, to trap it (which in your words is 'outplaying' the gengar, and by doing that you limit its ability to be an uncompetitive element), its not like you gain much either. Yeah, maybe you can trap it and then you have prevented it from trapping your arceus in the future, but its not like that is at all relevant to shadow tag as an uncompetitive element. Your scizor is still trapped, you can't switch out to save it for later so you can check the xerneas. I would like to, but stag takes away this option.

Because stag removes so much option, takes away a lot of autonomy and also hinders my ability to equally compete (it creates situations I cannot do anything about trough interesting decisions, and if I want to avoid them I have to play stupidly risky to the point where I have a giant disadvantage), shadow tag is uncompetitive to such a degree it deserves to be banned from the competitive tier we all know and love.

 

[Darkdevil]

BAN
I believe that shadow tag makes the game uncompetitive via coinflips and matchup issues, gothitelle and mega gengar can trap majority of stall and balanced pokemons .
Gengar mostly forces coinflips via taunt+destiny bond, and can easily kill a key member of a team without the player having any choice (no matter how good he is) about it.
While Gothitelle has the bulk to set up against many things, and then start using calm mind and double team, once again the opponent cannot do much about it, since he's trapped to begin with.
He gives some problems on bulky offense teams too, since gothitelle has no problem on trapping defog arceus and start setting up, at that point, the team no longer has a defogger, and is pretty much fucked by +6 gothitelle (who can even have double team might I add) and hazards.

 

[Unfaithful]

So yeah, I'm voting Ban because Shadow Tag is uncompetetive as it prohibits you from doing things that makes playing Pokemon competitive which is switching. It restricts teambuilding since if one Mon breaks your team, you have to build around Shadow Tag and avoid it getting trapped. It destroys defensiv cores and allows since one Mon from the core is gone, to sweep with a Mon. Best example Gothitelle and Kyogre you trap things like Arceus Grass or Palkia where Gothitelle can set up pretty well and defeat them 1v1 and make the room free for scarf Kyogre to sweep since their counter is gone. So yeah that was my argument and i hope it's not ''poor reasoning'' lol.

Shadow Tag: Ban

 

[Inspirited]

Shadow Tag: Do Not Ban

Ubers as a tier has always been slightly more uncompetitive than others due to our allowing of the most destructive and broken mons in the game. This is something I, and many others, find fun about the tier that other tiers disallow since it makes team building more of a challenge and amplifies the importance of key plays and Pokemon. This is what Shadow Tag takes advantage of is because of the heavy, but not certain, reliance on key Pokemon. In my eyes, this is a very overpowered and unbalanced form of support, or something that Ubers should preserve rather than ban. Although "preparing" for it will never completely solve the issue, this is a testament to how good Shadow Tag is and believe me when I say that I think Mega Gengar is probably the most broken Pokemon to have ever entered Ubers, besides RBY Mewtwo, purely due to its versatility of what it can support and how well it executes its supportive duties. Gothitelle performs similarly but with far less Pokemon it can support, it makes up for this with much greater sweeping potential than Mega-Gengar has since it will be at +6 SpA and SpD and at full health after it has removed what it has needed too if played correctly. Gothitelle also has a flaw of being stopped cold by Dark-types when it attempts to sweep but these will rarely hinder its ability to support due to Shadow Tag being Shadow Tag. As of right now, I am under the impression that Shadow Tag is purely broken and unbalanced which does make it uncompetitive to an extent, but we will not ban for this form of uncompetitiveness... usually.

The OHKO clause exception

The big exception here is OHKO clause which has its extremities when compared to Shadow Tag. They are similar in that they manipulate switching only Shadow Tag stops it, creating a coin flip when deciding whether to bring in the venerable mon or not, whereas OHKO moves created another game of chance in deciding to safely blast whatever is in front of you with a good STAB or coverage move, or use an OHKO move to attempt to KO the usual switch in (this isn't quite a 50 / 50 imo since an OHKO move can KO an opponent that stays in also). OHKO moves have much less opportunity cost since they allow a Choice Scarf Kyogre, for example, to potentially KO its switching while still being able to sweep later. The detail here is this only takes one team slot where Shadow Tag requires 2 to be effective: the Shadow Tag user for support and the Sweeper being supported. Even though Shadow Tag users essentially choose there match ups initially, they do have solid checks that can come in after the target falls. With OHKO moves, the user of them can also have their own dangerous sweeping potential i.e. Choice Scarf Kyogre mainly. The only downside to OHKO moves is their terrible accuracies, but 30% is only a theoretical value and we all know how drastically different the empirical value for accuracy can be. OHKO moves were definitely more broken than Shadow Tag is, and therefor that much more uncompetitive.

I still believe Shadow Tag is just an broken form of support and it doesn't quite share the brokenness of anything we have banned so far. Because this is Ubers, I can't morally put my support behind any potential ban that has these elements.

 

[Safes]

Shadow Tag: Ban

*I'm borrowing parts from my post in the last voting thread*

"Uncompetitive game aspects (or strategies) are those that take away autonomy (control of the game's events), take it out of the hand's of player's decisions-- and do so to a degree that can be considered uncompetitive."

Under this definition I believe Shadow Tag to be an inherently uncompetitive ability, due to switching being the most crucial part of a singles metagame; in other words, preventing the most interesting choices available to players, it tends to reduce the influence of skill on the outcome of the game, turning it into a series of 50/50s between the tagger's chosen target and the eventual pursuiter on one side and the tagger and the Pokemon that its target is supposed to check, on the other.
The removal of switching also makes it so that every little bit of versatility in the trappers' movepools can be used to the fullest in order to get around the so-called "countermeasures" to S-taggers. In other words, the trappers are always a step ahead of their "counters" and Shadow Tag is a strategy that doesn't have reliable counterplay and exacerbates the impact of team matchup on the outcome of a given battle.
Moreover, I believe that in higher levels of battling a correctly executed trapping strategy is, more often than not, causative of a win.

 

[Mazar]

Shadow Tag: Ban

Shadow Tag should be banned, just because it causes way too much 50:50. "Is he going to bring Gothi against my Blissey or not" for example. Nearly everything cause a 50:50, but the difference is that you can still remain your Blissey if Tyranitar pursuits it. Gothitelle can kill a important glue of the team, so the team is way weaker against specific threats. For example Goth traps your Palkia and you can not switch out. Goth just have to remove it and can die, because it has his work done. Now Ogre can sweep through your HO-Team and you dont have an answer to it. Also Shadow Tag users can trap opposing Defog-Arceus easily and can just lay down hazards and weaken the opponent on a huge amount. In addition to these reasons Doubleteam-Goth is crazy, it can not just trap stall, it can also set up against it, not just Double Team, even Calm Mind with Trick Room, Goth can easily do that and can rip an opposing stall team without Yveltal easily.

All in all Shadow Tag destroys stall, can set up on it and can even set up on a -2 Palkia or trap it just to find holes for Ogre. These are the reasons why I would ban Shadow Tag from XY Ubers, dont know though how it works in ORAS Ubers.

 

[AwesomeGunGuy]

Shadow Tag: Do Not Ban
I play ubers alot and haven't had any trouble regarding Shadow Tag what so ever. My opinion is that you need to have a Shadow-Tag counter in your team just like you need a xerneas or kyogre counter. in order to counter all you need to equip is whirwind or roar, or just some heavily attack based pokemon. In my eyes this is the same as going with defog against hazzards. You need to have Shadow-Tag counters. Its not the abilities fault if you lose, its the bad strategy you have.
I also think that in ubers nothing, unless really game breaking, should be banned, I like the metagame and I also like the twist shadow tag can give to it.
I also think that shadow tag is only good on mega gengar but I think this is fair since it costs a mega stone. Almost every mega makes a kill, and so does destiny bond gengar for example.
I've also used shadow-tag myself and I find it very bad, also because the pokemon whith shadow-tag cannot cover many roles in a team.

 

[Flexxen]

Shadow Tag: Ban

My reasoning:

Shadow Tag removes one of if not the key element of competitive Pokemon, the choice of switching. While this itself may not be uncompetitive, IMO it has several consequences which go against what a competitve metagame should be like.
The two main abusers, Gothitelle but especially Mega Gengar, have an extensive movepool which allows their abuser to pick his/her victims and remove them from the game once they're trapped pretty much every single time. Their movepool also allows them to stay one step ahead of what could potentially deal with them, like Mega Gengar running HP Fire or Focus Blast to deal with Pursuit MegaScizor and Tyranitar or Gothitelle with Charm for physical attackers, which would otherwise break through it. Because of that and their ability to trap their mere presence already gives the ST abuser a significant advantage since the opponent is not only pressured by the threat of getting trapped, they also can't always be 100% sure what the ST abuser may attempt to trap and take out. An example would be intending to sac your support Dialga when Gengar gets a free switch-in before mega-evolving (which is something I did quite a few times myself) because it already got up rocks and you don't really need it for anything else, to force Mega Gar to D-Bond, which however completely backfires if said Mega Gengar is for example a Perish Song variant.

This pressure ST abusers put on its victims doesn't only effect the games itself though, it also heavily restricts teambuilding, more than anything else in this tier including the very strongest Mons of the entire game like Arceus, Kyogre and Xerneas. There are many Mons which may be weak to those three but can still easily be used in this meta by relying on their teammates to handle these threats. ST completely shuts this down once the Mon vulnerable to ST is trapped, which hinders the viability of otherwise potentially decent sets to an extent unlike anything else in Ubers. The only stuff preventing you from being too weak to ST like Shed Shell or Dragon Tail (as an un-tauntable method of phazing) are very sub-par choices in pretty much every other scenario, Shed Shell is completely useless against anything else but ST and Dragon Tail fails to phaze one of the premier targets of a phazer, Geomancy Xerneas.

An other thing is how severe the main consequence of a properly used ST Mon is, loosing whatever could have stopped the ST abuser's main sweeper or in Gothitelle's case being forced to deal with a +6/+6 Mon, has a very good chance of already deciding the entire game.
With all that being said, I'm convinced ST is way easier to properly abuse as it is to properly "counter" or play around and thus limiting the skill as deciding factor of a competitve Pokemon match, which is as far as I'm concerned what competitve Pokemon is or should be all about. Therefore I think it's justified to call Shadow Tag uncompetitive and I'm convinced that banning it is for the best of a desirable and competitive Ubers metagame.

 

[Pottie Scippen.]

Shadow Tag: Do Not Ban, while I feel the ability Shadow Tag is broken, I can't say it's too good for the meta. Everything has a check/counter, it's all plays and how prepared the team is. If you don't prepare your team for Stag than obviously you're gonna have some trouble with it. Despite all the adaptations in the meta to deal with counters I.E hp fire MegaGengar for Pursuit Scizor, people will make a new way to deal with the threat. And even with all the checks/counters it still counts on the user. A player who is aware and informed about shadow tag will undoubtedly be able to beat the strategy, as the opponent only has a certain window of opportunity to use it to it's fullest, and until then they are playing in a 5 v 6 scenario.

 

[CP3MVP]

Shadow Tag: Do Not ban

Speaking for everyone, yes shadow tag is an amazing utility ability. But I've had no problems with it. It's amazing, yes, but not broken. A simple way of dealing with it is to just come prepared. When team building, just get a s-tag counter/check. Otherwise there's no problems with facing the ability. It's the same as preparing for common threats(ex. ekiller arceus, geoxern etc.) when teambuilding, shadow tag is another thing to take into account for that matter. Being unprepared for stag is fatal, since its obviously will be used alot since its utility is just great. One of the reasons why it doesn't deserve the ban. Just be prepared for it and it wont bother you. You can also use this to your advantage. Just brnig the check on the s-tag user, force it out, deal with it some other time. Like I said, not preparing for s-tag is very stupid, since the ratio is up above like the e-killers and geoxern, which everyone prepares for. S-tag is another thing to watch out for.

 

[Mega-Swampert]

Shadow Tag: Abstain

While last time, I could make a kinda firm decision about gengarite, I'm finding it too difficult to decide on shadow tags uncompetitiveness. So, I'm not gonna vote.

 

[GiraGoomy]

Shadow Tag: Do Not Ban

Although I am particularly new to the Ubers Tier itself, throughout the time I have taken to learn the tier and ladder in order to vote in this suspect test, I have gained valuable knowledge about the use of Shadow Tag and have also experienced mixed emotions about the ability as a whole. As I see it, Shadow Tag is able to create certain situations in which a Pokemon can setup and sweep, come in and easily revenge kill something, or put the battle into a 50/50 situation. The main problem with this is that this means that Shadow Tag then has the power to possibly let less experienced players gain a major advantage over highly experienced players in a match just due to the fact of how it can eliminate a Pokemon when unprepared. However, I believe that this is false and that people are making too much of a fuss over Shadow Tag just based on this one fact. The way I see it, if a 50/50 situation comes into play with Shadow Tag where a less experienced player is playing a highly experienced player, the experienced player should still have the advantage since they should have a greater understanding of what the opponent will do. This could be established due to the plays the less experienced player has made, the team he is using (Hyper Offence, Stall, etc), or other aspects. Practically, the more experienced player should still have a decently good chance of getting a correct prediction when it comes to Shadow Tag in this situation rendering the 'Bad VS Good Player' point incorrect. Another reason people don't like Shadow Tag is the fact that it practically forces you to have ways to beat it when teambuilding which can 'limit options'. I however like this as it brings the strategy of Pokemon and instead of limiting options, can let people be original and think of a wacky idea to beat it which I think would be cool. All in all, I think it's easy to not let Shadow Tag effect you so greatly it makes you lose a match. For Mega-Gengar as an example, you can easily play around Taunt + Destiny Bond if you are prepared enough and/or have a Specially Defensive Pokemon to take it on. These are the little things I see in Shadow Tag that just make me feel people are definitely making out the ability a lot harder to deal with than I believe it actually is. Nevertheless, Ubers is also the tier where the 'strongest Pokemon created battle it out against the strongest Pokemon created', so I believe that it would just not be the right option to actually ban an ability from Ubers not only for this reason, but mostly for the variety of other reasons I have explained to my best ability. All in all, I finally conclude with stating for sure and certain, that I do not want to ban Shadow Tag for the reasons listed in this statement and due to the main fact I think it is a good thing that has helped to establish the current healthy metagame we have in Ubers.

 

[Cynara]

Shadow tag: Ban

Honestly the ladder is an awful representation of the ubers metagame to begin with, especially when it comes down to shadow tag, so I'm going to write this based on the higher up ladder and the tournament experience I've had. I feel shadow tag is unhealthy for the metagame and needs to go. Due to it's unhealthy nature, it makes pokemon like gengar/gothitelle a top tier threat, due to it's ability to trap pokemon such as chansey/ferrothorn (chansey isn't viable at all, but it's seen on the ladder) and even support arceus.

Gothitelle especially is a great abuser of shadow tag and in my opinion the best shadow tagger in the metagame.it's niche over gengar is that it doesn't have to mega evolve to trap pokemon so this gives the opponent to switch into a relevant check for gengar, however gengar is still able to really ruin games if you aren't prepared.Able to set up calm minds to +6 while keeping something trapped and rest off any damage, Support arceus has to rely on getting a crit with judgement before gothitelle exhausts it out of Judgment PP after which gothitelle is free to do whatever it pleases in some situations after +6 calm minds it can pull a late game sweep and the opponent making the wrong play allowing gothitelle to come in the right moment can most likely throw the game completely in the users favour.

Gengar the other lnown abuser of shadow tag, unlike gothitelle doesn't start off with shadow tag, however has to mega evolve. but gengar unlike gothitelle is able to trap much more relevant threats in the metagame as it doesn't have to set up with calm minds to deal damage and is probably the best revenge killer in the game, if it has mega evolved beforehand, it's capable of revenge killing the opponents pokemon if its able to do so, allowing to it come in and kill it off as they can't escape. Gengar also has access to moves such as Destiny bond and Perish song which ensures at least one pokemon will be taken out in a game, destiny bond can also cause mind games sometimes causing 50/50s when trying to take out mega gengar.

Finally, shadow tag limits team building in the ubers metagame, especially in tournament play where shadow tag is abused the most, I'm not a experienced tournament player. but however currently at least 1 check to shadow tag pokemon is required, such as a ghost type, Aegislash/Ghost arceus being the most effective checks to shadow tag, however items such as shed shell or phazing works, however situational and only really seen on specific teams.

 

[daboss0123]

Shadow tag:Do Not Ban

Shadow tag and abilities like it (arena trap as an example) have been around for a long time and nobody has talked about banning it. People have only recently started talking about it as Mgar and goth were both quite good in the ubers tier this gen. I personally did not use gothitelle or wobba on my team before the suspect or during it but I did have alot of experience with Mgar, it is very frail and most pokemon that it counters may have a move to hit it hard before it has a chance to do anything. If you can predict the switch in to the stag pokemon which in alot of cases is not very hard to predict. Then you can predict the switch and ko with a effective move. All things considered I do not believe that the ability shadow tag is overpowered as you can see in the team preview which pokemon they have and mgar will take a turn to mega evolve anyway.
No Ban

 

[scene]

Shadow Tag: Abstain

Shadow Tag is without question a great ability, and certainly forces players to play differently and to stay on their toes if they want to win. Gothitelle and Mega Gengar can both take full advantage of their opponents being unable to switch, whether it's through setting up to punch a hole through the opponent's team or merely knocking out a trapped Pokemon with a poor matchup. I voted to ban Gengarite because I believed it was unhealthy for the tier, but I don't feel comfortable making a call one way or the other this time. Well-reasoned arguments were put forward by both sides and I haven't been swayed enough either way to vote with certainty.

 

[steelskitty]

Abstain

I'm unable to form a valid opinion on this suspect. My biggest thought about the idea of banning shadow tag is that it really doesn't matter whether it happens now or not, since XY Ubers will only be played for a week and some odd days more before ORAS. Therefore I would prefer to not have it banned in the new meta. I recognize that this is not a valid stance, but it is the only one that I think accurately sums up how I feel. Any other reason I'd have for voting ban or no ban is primarily selfish; I do want Gothitelle and Gengar banned because of how much they limit team building, but I don't want them banned because that prevents me from building with them at all, limiting building in an entirely different way. I want Gothitelle banned, but I think Gengar and Wobbufett should stay. I hate how shadow tag removes choice, but I also like to remove my opponent's choice. Since I can't formulate an opinion that the community accepts for the life of me but I got reqs anyway, I'll simply abstain.

 

[PISTOLERO]

Shadow Tag: Ban

I believe that Shadow Tag should be banned as the ability to selectively trap and kill a Pokemon on your opponent's team is in my opinion uncompetitive. Gengar can customise its moveset to remove whatever it wants, with Taunt and Destiny Bond allowing it to force unhealthy 50/50s with its targets, with a wrong move from the trapped Pokemon ending in it falling. Due to being trapped, the element of choice is removed as the Gengar user can force you into making either of those two plays - you can Spacial Rend as it Destiny Bonds or attempt to Thunder Wave it as it Taunts, for example. The ability to eliminate a key piece of your opponent's team so easily is in my opinion uncompetitive as it takes a minimal amount of skill and knowledge of the tier to execute this formulaic strategy, e.g. trap Arceus-Grass with Gengar, kill it with Sludge Wave, then win with Scarf Kyogre. This also piles a hideous amount of pressure on the opponent as every single play they make is extremely risky and can lose them the game, unlike the Shadow Tag user, meaning that the opponent's ability to equally compete is gone. It is impossible to avoid 50/50 plays as the autonomy of switching is removed, and to avoid Pokemon getting trapped the opponent has to resort to insanely risky and random double switching and sacrificing of other teammembers to prevent their cornerstone teammember from being removed. Gengar's ability to instantly snipe something that is causing its team issues, say Extremekiller Arceus or Calm Mind Arceus-whatever, is also hideously unfair, as it means that the Gengar user can easily remove something that they did not prepare for and would otherwise get wiped by, because the Extremekiller / Calm Mind Arceus / whatever user does not have the option of preserving their Extremekiller / Calm Mind Arceus / whatever. It can do this easily with a combination of Taunt and Destiny Bond.

Gengar and Gothitelle can both escape from Pursuit trappers, Gengar using HP Fire vs Scizor, Shadow Ball vs Aegislash and Focus Blast vs Tyranitar, and Gothitelle using either Reflect or Charm to escape Pursuit. The amount of defensive Pokemon that both Gengar and Gothitelle can trap is huge, with the majority of support Arceus easily faliing to both. Any countermeasures against Shadow Tag are easily circumvented by the Shadow Tag users, meaning that it is not even possible to prepare for it, as you are reduced to hoping that you get lucky in team preview, which further pronounces team matchup issues.

 

[duck]

Shadow Tag: Ban

I started playing Ubers like 2 months ago, and my first thought was "Wow! I don't have a counter for that!". Ubers is a meta where almost everyhing is broken, almost everything is really really powerful. Because of this, when you build a team, you won't probably have more than one counter for each standard pokemon set (Like Scarf/specs Kyogre, Extremekiller and so on). The ability shadow tag gives you an hard time when dealing with a powerful pokemon your opponent has, because when you put your probably only "counter" your opponent could double switch into another pokemon with shadow tag, trap it and kill/dent it. Gengar hasn't good defences and has to megaevolve first but hits hard, is very fast and has Destiny Bond in its viable movepool. Gothitelle on the other hand it's not really good in Ubers, but it can set up on some defensive pokemons, then use rest, and then sweep (it can use trickroom too). Although I don't find shadow tag really poweful, I think it's pretty unfair you can lose your only check for some pokemon in some situation so I vote ban.

 

[Darnell]

Shadow Tag: Ban

Shadow Tag is something that people think they can prepare for in the team-builder before actually battling, but honestly, it doesn't work out that way. It forces the opponent to limit their choices on what they can do when a Shadow Tag user is on the opposing side. The fact that people are running an item(Shed Bell) just to avoid the ability alone is ridiculous in my opinion but I guess that is what needs to be done to avoid having to stay in. The argument that both people have access to Shadow Tag is irrelevant too. It may not be necessarily be that one player is better than the other at times for example someone could be playing well the whole match, ready for their cores/win condition to finish it up. All it takes is one misplay to lose a well needed Pokemon to turn the whole game around. I do have to admit, its seen that people do comeback from a successful Shadow Tag trap but its extremely rare.

Let me use an example. If someone has been playing well for most of the battle and they bring in Blissey without a Shed Bell and don't switch that turn because they wanted to heal their teammates or get a Toxic on against something, what stops the opponent form bringing in Gothitelle to then set up with Calm Mind for the next 10 turns or so with Rest and Sleep Talk. It then relies on critical hit to bring it back. The outcome of that one play has pretty much turned the whole match around. To my conclusion I think Shadow Tag is over centralizing, limits options when team-building, and honestly needs to go.

 

[bibooo magic]

Shadow Tag: Do Not Ban
Part 1: shadow tag played in-meta in general:

So far i've been in the ubers metagame for laddering in suspecttest and having some fun (I can't hide that enjoyment :p), shadow tag has been a problem in terms of predictions considering the fact that pokemons that have been trapped (I'm refering notably to walls with no attacks or just weak moves, but also pokemons that aen't strong or fast enough to pick off the shadow tag user) are forced to take some damages despite u initially want it to save because it serve late game sweeping purpose or support for crippling or cure your teammates, unless they are carrying a shed shell or being a ghost type... And also the fact that shadow tag pokemons can abuse their trolly-like moveset and pretty good stats to hinder opposite options in addition of remove the ability of switch out. Like it wasn't enough to prevent switches, shadow tag users can rely on annoying moves such as encore used by wobuffet, trick used by gothitelle or the nasty taunt-destiny bond combo on mega gengar. Anyway what I mean is these annoying support moves combined with the right stats to use them and attacking options besides that (except for that punchin bag called wobuffet which use that countering shenanigans) can really make the opponent lose his/her momentum and gameplan to win because a key pokemon has been neutralized or removed.

Part 2: shadow tag users in details:

I) Mega gengar:

HP:60
Attack:65
Defense:80
SpAtk:170
Spdef:95
Speed:130
Mega gengar is probaly one of the most dangerous pokemon in the metagame, it has stats and the movepool for being a great special sweeper with amazing support, keep in mind that it speedties with mewtwo one of the fastest pokemon in the game, that means it can played around opposite mons by taunting them to prevent any form of crippling or act like a bomb and destiny bond on a strong enough attack to take it out, and if any scarfers can't take it out it's even worse because you are dead next turn after the safely played destiny bond. using will-o-wisp is also a thing to consider, because if a well-trained physical attacker which can be potentially the mvp of the game later on is burned, then guess who is screwed at the end... Rather than its support movepool, its offensive movepool is also as awesome as its supporting one, has access to the most perfect neutral coverage in the game with two 120 base power moves named as shadow ball (after STAB boost) and focus blast, also have a great secondary STAB (sludge wave or bomb, it's a matter of tastes imo) that became more useful since the introduction of fairies. with an addition of a certain hidden power or other coverage move u pretty much become unstoppable, even the dedicated special walls chansey and blissey can't do anything if u choose to run taunt + 3 attacks (especially if u prefer to have specific coverage instead of a powerful poison STAB move), the only remaining move to use for those pink blobs will be then seismic toss most of the time and no need to tell that gengar laugh at it all day every day...

Insatiably using these assets allows mega gengar to make stall teams cries, the incapacity of switching out while taunted is huge and the possibility to cripple stallers with status and deals decent to huge damages reach a step above the acceptance in competitive play. Fortunalety it can't sweep a whole stall team as long the members are carrying an attacking move ensuring to wear down the threat bit by bit if not 2hkos or ohkos depending on the moveset. In fact gengar doesn't have a setup move and stated with kinda frail defensive stats, so that it can't pull off a sweep and cumulate the status of stallbreaker and wallbreaker especially because its physical attack prevents also mega gengar to be a mixed sweeper. in a nutshell mega gengar is a great force to be reckoned with, great offensive stats and movepool allows it to deal a good chunk to everyone and it relatively screw up stall teams by removing a key resistance to a specific sweeper in a team if needed, but the fact that its moves can't ohkos offensive threats that then can retaliate back and merely ohko it more likely with strong physical attack and the lack of a setup move to break through a team make it only reliable on weakens teams more than completely overpowered them and hinder their possibilities to move to death.
II)Wobuffet:

(I live in the shadow of my fame...)
HP:190
Atk:33
Def:58
SpAtk:33
SpDef:58
Speed:33
Now wobuffet is an interesting pokemon, it looks bad at first glance its existence amounting to only 7 moves once and for all!!! (I do not count spalsh tho because I think it's the newly arrived move with ORAS movetutor, I'm not sure.) But by looking like such an awful pokemon with just only 7 moves which are non-attacking and non-directly attacking moves it has the perfect ability to match with these moves. the relatively reliable Shadow tag ability allows wobuffet to "force" its movepool to do some work that means wobuffet can actually put the trapped pokemon in a position where then the player has to pick between 3 types of choices here:

-Due to its huge base hp wobuffet can tank a variety of hits and send it back twice as strong as the original damage output with either
counter or mirror coat so the opponent might risk an ohko back doing so and then switch in something to finish the wobuffet if possible.

-The opponent could not try to attack and click a status move but then wobuffet can use the move encore to stuck the trapped pokemon into this move and allows a switch in initiative.

-The opponent try to play around between those alternatives and eventually win by 2hko the wobuffet under the encore or by taunting the wobuffet and then not attack or lose because failing to get all the predictions right.

All these choices are making the opponent to be extremely lucky or skilled to beat the one carrying wobuffet at its own game and avoid losing an important member or losing crucial initiative for the battle. Beside that and as a conclusion wobuffet hasn't any offensive presence making it less of a big deal, its goal being to support the team by forcing mind games and eventually removed one pokemon or hinder its abilty to put some work.

III)Gothitelle:

HP:70
Atk:55
Def:95
SpAtk:95
Spdef:110
Speed:65
Gothitelle seems like a bigger threat than the previous ones aforementioned considering the fact that she can learn calm mind and potentially become a wallbreaker/sweeper especially with access to psyshock to take down special walls but regarding her actual movepool she's not designed to do so. In a few words she struggles to pick off opposing steel types and dark types in a lesser extent, she just hasn't got the necessary coverage to manage the exploit forcing her to rely on a proper hidden power, but even combling these flaws doesn't allow her to sweep because of her lack luster speed given. she is outsped by the most part of the tier as a sweeper and is one of the pokemons that suffers a lot from the knock off boost since that's a viable option for both mixed or physical sweepers sets and can potentially ohko her.

However even if she struggles against offensive mons and tend to be wear down quickly or ohko by mostly strong physical attacks, she can do great against stall by abusing some trick called trick...
in a more serious note the access to the move trick allows her to crippled a defensive mon like chansey, skarmory,etc... by giving it a choice item and then set up on their faces and later starting wrecks the whole stall team with proper coverage. The thing is the opponent might expect that attempt and so react in consequence by locked his pokemon into an attacking move or using a crippling status move such as toxic and so force eventually gothitelle not being able to set up at +6/+6 with calm mind and switch out. To solve that most of the time we use rest in the set to take on but it misses the opportunity to have coverage and being able to KO the whole team if it is well-synergized.
So not really the best option to have on a team for abusing shadow tag, trick doesn't help vs offensive teams in general and she will more likely forced to switch out on stall teams if crippled enough or encounter an obstacle that can take on her only attacking move if rest is used in the trick/calm mind set.

Part 3: Conclusion on the statement:

To sum up you can more likely lose the game if the matchup is too relevant nothing new here, but the impact will be different on each playstyle used. A stall team is only-reliant on the matchup, (there are mons strong enough to break through these kind of teams but whatever) it's a system based on a very adjusted synergize trying to counter/crippled as many mons as possible with only 6 slots facing 17 possible types of attacks with possible good reliant coverage, so if you manage to block the ability to switch into a counter you'll probably have better chances of winning the match by wearing down/removed an obstacle. Then we come on balance/offensive teams, there aren't as much pressure to be prevented from switch in, I guess balanced teams wouldn't like to lose their defensive members but when you are bringed to build these kind of teams you'll find interesting powerful enough offensive options to make your defensive mons bulky and agressive at the same time, whereas really more offensive based teams aren't really of shadow tag since there are actually a pretty good number of offensive threats that can take some hits considering the tier attributed to the different shadow tag users.
Voting conclusion:
So as I would like I'll vote the non-ban of shadow tag despite it fragilizing an entire playstyle, there are still viable offensive options to put into a stally moveset and so actually playing a faster way to wear down the opposing team while tanking their hits (at least one attack and the rest is standard support). And offensive playstyle users may have to keep a good offensive pressure as usual, shadow tag being only here to lose momentum one time, the key is to prevent your win condition for late game clean or setup and ohko the ST user if u have the opportunity to do so and then u can also use priority moves to prepare the field for your win condition which generally outspeed and will finish the shadow tag if you played correctly before, doing that ensure you to easily avoid painful penalties and will maximize your initiative leading you a road to victory. So yeah, when you faced a team with shadow tag just adapt your play style in a more agressive way just a bit more since shadow tag might affect the gameplay in the slightest and not limit to an extreme degree your options.
PS: Excuse me if I did some grammatical mistakes, english isn't my native language ^^.