A lot of lower tier pokes can be threatening at +2 (Ursaring, Zangoose) but they are still generally outclassed by better pokes, in shiftrys case by the likes of honchkrow and Absol
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XY UU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Limitless
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Before I start, u forgot to add an Adamant nature, the nature increases the damage output significantly.
It is true that Shiftry is outclassed by M-Absol to an extent. M-Absol sports better Attack and Speed, and does hit considerably harder with Sucker Punch. In addition it has pseudo-immunity to status via Magic Bounce. However, I'd like to point out that Shiftry is actually bulkier than M-Absol, naturally and with the extra investment that's provided, making setting up, in my opinion, easier. Shiftry also has a good second stab, taking into consideration that many physically bulky Pokemon tend to be weak to Grass. Although Absol is fast and hits hard, it is somewhat reliant on its only STAB. While Shiftry is in no way fast, it has just enough speed to be a menace to slow walls, and to hit hard against offensive mons. Even more, Mega-Absol does use up your Mega Stone, so there's that. While I do believe that M-Absol is the better option, I think there should always be alternatives, especially when we consider the roles different Mega Pokemon have in teams.
I think Toxicroak is the better Pokemon to compare Shiftry to. First of all, Toxicroak is not bulkier than Shiftry ( (90/60/60) vs. (83/65/65) ), it might actually be a bit frailer overall. Although completely honest, the difference is miniscule and safe to say they are both frail mons, and that extra bulk Shiftry has is there for a reason. The typing difference is a peculiar one, but I don't believe Toxicroak has arguably a better one. The way I see it, Toxicroak and Shiftry excel against different Pokemon. Shiftry can do much better against the likes of SlowBrothers, Hippowdon and Gastrodon, while Toxicroak is the better answer to Suicune, Blastoise, Umbreon, Heracross and Chesnaught. They both can also take on the M-Aggron + Florges duo quite well. The problems you described (eg. inability to come in, reliability on Sucker Punch, absolutely needs the boost) are in my opinion as much Toxicroak's problem as they are Shiftry's. Ofc, Toxicroak has that wonderful Water immunity, but then again, Shiftry is immune to Psychic. They both take heavy hits from even resisted attacks, and need some support in order to pull the SD. Toxicroak has Gunk Shot, which is somewhat strong even without a boost, but really, they are both quite dead weight without an SD boost. I don't see the reliance on Sucker Punch against faster threats that bad, it is just so strong. Ofc there are guessing games against, for example, Substitute Chandelure, but it isn't a problem that only Shiftry has. The reason I brought up Toxicroak extensively is that I believe that Shiftry and Toxicroak essentially share similar weaknesses, risks and need similar support to function. They are only separated by their typing, which bring their own pros and cons, and one can arque which is ultimately better.
Honchkrow is a good comparison to Shiftry as well, although I need to stress, +2 Sucker Punch is just so incredibly strong that Honch really can't compare to that, not without some Moxie-kills under its belt. Honchkrow does hit harder right off the bat, but to be truly scary, it needs to kill stuff, and with smart play, that can be avoided, whereas Shiftry really only needs one window to pull the SD. Also, Honch is generally slower and just as frail as Shiftry, so it is as reliant on Sucker Punch as Shiftry is. The way I've seen it, is that Honch needs to come to play late-game, because it can't afford to lose the boosts it gathers. Shiftry, on the other hand, can in my experience work as a mid-game wallbreaker as well as a late-game sweeper. It is good to back Shiftry up with a strong Scarfer, for example, that can finish the targets Shiftry has softened, or vice versa.
It is true that many lower-tiered Pokemon can be scary after setting up, but none of them has a unbelievably strong priority like Sucker Punch. Ursaring can use Quick Feet, but it can easily be killed with a Scarfed 'mon. Zangoose has Quick Attack, but I don't think it's fair to compare Quick Attack to Sucker Punch.
To be fair, I don't feel that strongly for that specific A- rank, it was mostly to start some discussion. Somewhere in B sound just as good. Although I do have to question, if my comparison with (Toxicroak and Shiftry) is a correct one, I believe they should share a rank, or atleast be at consecutive ranks. If it is deemed that one has a better typing to another, I think separate ranks can be justified, but ultimately, they play very similarly. One thing that troubles me is the part about B-rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through ... significant portions of the metagame. I have to argue that Shiftry is perfectly capable of sweeping a great majority of the UU metagame. If it is deemed B-rank worth, it should be on the grounds of being outclassed to something, for reasons to be discussed.
At the Bulk comparising, I though that Shiftry was base 80 in HP (my bad). Typing of Toxicroak is excellent, Quad resisting bug can prove crutial in a U-turn filled metagame. Shiftry on the otherhand has a terrible defensive typing, being weak to fire, ice, Fairy, Bug (quad), Fighting, poison and Flying. Most of these are common Attacking types (lol not you poison) and therefor does not allow many switch ins.
When it comes to lower tiers this thing is a beast, it is probably the best pokemon in the current PU (Dun deals) metagame, but that does not make it a great UU poke. When looking at it I also saw the support option and guessed I was abit harsh on it. Shiftry should not go higher than B, But I think B- is a solid ranking for it (Mega-abomasnow is B, and that thing breaks walls much easier than shiftry)
To conclude: Shiftry is not bad, but nowhere close to the A- ranking you gave it (some people will say that everything below A is bad, but ignore those)
Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.
I do not see how Hariyama does not fall under this description. EonX the pokemon you listed all have their pros and cons Mienshao as you said is just a killer, Heracross works very well as a late game sweeper with moxie and Machamp has its confusion hax. Now I am in no way disputing Mienshao and Heracross they fill their roles very well, but if you compare Machamp to Hariyama in my opinion it is clear that apart from its confusion niche Machamp is outclassed. Yes Machamp's counters only have a 50% chance of actually beating it that is true, but it is still unreliable and completely luck based. If we look at it from a statistical standpoint Focus blast has a 70% accuarcy so in theory it only has a 30% chance of missing, on paper they are good odds, but in actual practice focus blast is known as one of the most unreliable moves in the game, that being said, I then do not understand how the community can say Machamps niche is so effective when statistically focus blast has more chance than hitting than getting the confusion hax.
As I mentioned earlier I do believe Hariyama outclasses Machamp but the fact of the matter is, Machamp still does have its niche, but from my standpoint saying that its one unreliable niche it is the reason why Hariyama cannot be placed in A- is completely unjustified. Yes while using Hariyama you might miss out on a the confusion chance that you get from Machamp, what you get in return is pokemon that can reliably handle some of the tiers biggest offensive threats while also comfortably being able to handle defensive and support mons as well. EonX you yourself said you can think of a pokemon that can switch into Nidoking Hariyama can, it fears nothing from its coverage moves and at best can is 3HKO with sludge wave while Hari can OHKO with ice punch, Mega houndoom is checked by Hariyama even without thick fact and the same applies to kyruem. Hariyama's only main flaw is that it lacks recovery, which according to the statement for A mons is not something that can prevent it from being in categorised in said rank. Pokemon in A rank ''require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently'' other than appreciating wish support and having low speed (which in some cases is a blessing) I do not see any other reason flaw that prevents Hariyama from being a top tier pokemon.
I do not see how Hariyama does not fall under this description. EonX the pokemon you listed all have their pros and cons Mienshao as you said is just a killer, Heracross works very well as a late game sweeper with moxie and Machamp has its confusion hax. Now I am in no way disputing Mienshao and Heracross they fill their roles very well, but if you compare Machamp to Hariyama in my opinion it is clear that apart from its confusion niche Machamp is outclassed. Yes Machamp's counters only have a 50% chance of actually beating it that is true, but it is still unreliable and completely luck based. If we look at it from a statistical standpoint Focus blast has a 70% accuarcy so in theory it only has a 30% chance of missing, on paper they are good odds, but in actual practice focus blast is known as one of the most unreliable moves in the game, that being said, I then do not understand how the community can say Machamps niche is so effective when statistically focus blast has more chance than hitting than getting the confusion hax.
As I mentioned earlier I do believe Hariyama outclasses Machamp but the fact of the matter is, Machamp still does have its niche, but from my standpoint saying that its one unreliable niche it is the reason why Hariyama cannot be placed in A- is completely unjustified. Yes while using Hariyama you might miss out on a the confusion chance that you get from Machamp, what you get in return is pokemon that can reliably handle some of the tiers biggest offensive threats while also comfortably being able to handle defensive and support mons as well. EonX you yourself said you can think of a pokemon that can switch into Nidoking Hariyama can, it fears nothing from its coverage moves and at best can is 3HKO with sludge wave while Hari can OHKO with ice punch, Mega houndoom is checked by Hariyama even without thick fact and the same applies to kyruem. Hariyama's only main flaw is that it lacks recovery, which according to the statement for A mons is not something that can prevent it from being in categorised in said rank. Pokemon in A rank ''require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently'' other than appreciating wish support and having low speed (which in some cases is a blessing) I do not see any other reason flaw that prevents Hariyama from being a top tier pokemon.
Yeah, Shiftry does have that nasty 4x weakness to Bug, and in a metagame that screams Volt-turn, it does put Shiftry in tight spot when it comes to getting on the field. However, once Shiftry gets to field and manages to boost, U-turn shouldn't be a problem, unless we're talking of a full health Mienshao. When considering the type difference between Toxicroak and Shiftry, I do have to conclude, that Toxicroak is great in a metagame where Suicune is one of the defining forces. Every time Suicune comes to field you can hooray for a free Swords Dance. And yeah, it's not like I'd think Pokemon in B or lower are bad per se, I'm just looking for some consistency and reasoning on why Toxicroak is better than Shiftry.
Well, It beats Florges 1vs1 (252+ Atk Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 342-404 (95 - 112.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO, note that most Florges are Specially defensive) Shiftry does not without a SD boost, Toxicroak gets offensive recovery with drain punch (I know that Shiftry gets giga drain, but that is special) and Fighting stab is always nice.
I think Ditto can be dropped a sub rank from B+ to B, as many of the prominent threats it could copy to revenge kill (Hydreigon, Keldeo, Latias just to name a few) were hit either by bans or were moved to OU in general. However, Ditto can still put a huge stop to Crocune, Chesnaught, and Rotom-H (non-trick+specs variants), it can still copy medics at the level it could before the bans/shifts to heal statuses and stuff, and given the right situations, it can still effectively play clean-up. Overall, it is still a very solid option but not quite as great as it was before.
On the contrary, I think it should stay where it is. Even though the really big threats (Haxo, Salamence, etc.) all left the tier, new threats are coming up. Zygarde is probably the biggest boosting offender, with both Coil and DD both viable, high-powered options that can easily break through teams. Furthermore, Mega Houndoom with Nasty Plot is one of the strongest sweeper-(esque) things running around in UU right now. Throw in a Shell Smash Cloyster (pretty anti-meta rn) and you have a reasonable justification list for using Ditto. I'm not saying Ditto is god-awesome in this meta, but it definitely has its uses and that usefulness still stands as long as Zygarde and Mega-Houndoom are still a thing in this tier (mostly the former).
EDIT: Just read about all the talk about Zygarde. Nominating Cloyster to A+.
- Strongest Zygarde counter by far
- +2 Cloyster with only 224 EVs Jolly outspeeds the entire metagame (224 EVs JOlly beat Scarf Mienshao)
- After one Shell Smash boost, every Pokemon in the tier is 2HKOed
- Massive defensive stat grants it more set up opportunities than other Smashers.
- Breaks subs with Icicle Spear/Rock Blast
- King's Rock Cloyster has 40+% flinch chance, which allows it to straight-up hax its way past its counters
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That is very true, and I guess I may have neglected the fact you mentioned to an extent, although I'm slightly hesitant about sub-Zygardes. In addition, I almost forgot that Sticky Web doesn't stop Ditto from revenge killing, which is another factor that has worked further into Ditto's favor. I suppose Ditto really should stay where it is currently.
eggman62 Here's the difference between focus miss and dynamic punch: When focus blasts misses, you get nothing, nada, zilch, good day to you sir. When D-punch fails to hax, you still get a fairly scary 100 BP stab off of machamps very scary 130 base attack, which is enough to 2hko most mons. Offensive mons are often OHKO'd outright, or are brought to bullet punch range, while defensive mons will rarely be capable of doing enough damage to ohko machamp, due to passable bulk. So the risk/reward often boils down to this: I risk loseing a bit of machamp's health in return if hax fails, but if it doesn't, I'm unscath'd, and regardless, I get to kill a wall, so is all good.
Hariyama is just as scary if not moreso to offensive swap ins, but cannot muscle through defensive checks and counters the same way machamp can.
That being said, Hariyama is by no means unviable.
Hariyama is just as scary if not moreso to offensive swap ins, but cannot muscle through defensive checks and counters the same way machamp can.
That being said, Hariyama is by no means unviable.
Dynamicpunch has 100% flinch chance.
the idea by "fail to hax" is if the opponent doesn't hit himself, which does happen
but 100 bp stab off 130 atk is still nothing to joke about
but 100 bp stab off 130 atk is still nothing to joke about
Nominating Gardevoir to, at the very least B+ or A- rank. While Support sets are outclassed by Florges, It's offensive, Scarf, and possibly Specs sets all hit incredibly hard on half or more pokemon in the A rank and some in S. Gardevoir also deals SE damage to some notable pokemon in the higher ranks with both of its STABs. Trace is a nice touch too. Offensively, Gardevoir is the best Fairy in UU and an amazing special attacker. Although it's Physical Defense is a let down, from what I can see, there isn't much Steel, Poison and Ghost type attackers. While it doesn't wall much, Gardevoir can hit a lot of the threats in the metagame hard.
Warning: I'm running on 4 hours of sleep and it's 11:55 at night as I post this. So I may ramble on and sound like a complete jackass while doing so, but this can happen when I get annoyed at having to explain myself again, and again, and again.
OK, eggman62 , not sure where to start, so here goes. The confusion point on Machamp isn't the only thing. It's the fact that, as an AV user, Machamp doesn't have to lower its defenses to use a strong STAB move. Hariyama does. 50/50 isn't reliable, yes. But if you don't feel comfortable, why not switch to a teammate that already handles the threat at hand? Guess what? It may just get an absolute free switch-in due to confusion. For example, Florges comes in as Machamp uses DynamicPunch. You aren't running Poison Jab, so you switch out to, say, Roserade. Florges can't do much to it anyway, but she may not do anything at all due to confusion. No Wish, no Moonblast, no nothing. It loses a turn and takes minor damage. This only makes Roserade's job of dealing with Florges easier as it can switch in an extra time if need be. You say it can switch into Nidoking. Sure, it can... once. It suffers the same fate as AV Snorlax. No recovery means King only has to hit it with a STAB move once before it's in 2HKO range on the next switch. SpDef Mew is the only defensive counter to Nidoking that can come in repeatedly without help from the team. Vaporeon is the only common Wish user that can actually fight back against Nidoking. Florges and Umbreon are free switch-ins (Florges especially) and it's not easy to get Wishes off with King around.
Now, you've raised versatility points that I've never addressed. I would like to do that now. It's true that Hariyama can fulfill defensive and offensive roles. Yes, it is not the only Pokemon in the tier that can do this. Just off the top of my head, Tornadus-T, Slowbro, Suicune, Entei, and M-Manectric can all do this as well. Want to know what the difference is between them and Hariyama? Simple; they only need one set to do defense and offense. Tornadus-T, Slowbro, and Entei can all run AV and still have nice offensive presence. Slowbro and Suicune can run defensive sets with Calm Mind to give their teams a win-con and solid checks to serious threats early and mid-game. M-Manectric has Intimidate+Volt Switch to allows its team to take on physical attackers much more easily without cutting into its ability to clean up late-game. Now to Hariyama. To safely handle all Fire-types in the tier, it must run solid defensive investment and Thick Fat. However, this means it loses the firepower that you say makes it so dangerous. Sure, its uninvested Attack isn't awful, but it's not going to be like a boosted Slowbro or Suicune, an AV Entei who can fully invest in its Attack and run Adamant, and it won't hit as hard as a fully invested M-Manectric. You could run Sheer Force to raise the damage output by a significant amount, but you then lose out on the ability to handle many threats defensively like Megadoom, a threat that AV Torn-T and Entei can actually deal with. So, what about Guts? Well, Guts is another way to raise the damage output, but this means you're going to die... quickly. To have Guts active, you must be afflicted with a status condition, probably Poison or Burn. That's at least -6.25% or -12.5% of your max HP every turn. Not to mention any passive damage from hazards, Sandstorm, etc. Think you can check many things defensively now? Nope. Meanwhile, all Entei and Slowbro have to do to raise their bulk immediately is run AV and they still don't have to sac their offensive presence a ton. Oh, and both have MUCH better STAB moves to use in Sacred Fire and Scald, both of which can possibly burn the opponent to lower damage from physical attacks. Hariyama? If you don't want Close Combat, you have to resort to Cross Chop (inaccurate) Brick Break (weak) or Force Palm (even weaker)
Now, does this mean Hariyama is unviable? No, of course not. It's still fairly versatile and is capable of doing some solid things for your team. The problem is that it has severe competition in most roles it tries to fulfill and it usually has to pick what it wants to do: play defense, hit really hard, or absorb status to hit hard? It's hard for Hariyama to do all of these at once, whereas stuff like M-Manectric, Tornadus-T, Entei, and Slowbro can do multiple things with their primary sets. Aside from Entei, all of these Pokemon are S or A rank threats. And why is Entei not at least A rank? Competition from Darmanitan, Victini, and Arcanine. Same reason Hariyama shouldn't be A rank. Competition from Mienshao and Heracross as Fighting-types and the other threats I've mentioned as competition for its roles in general.
No comment on Shiftry as I have yet to use it in UU. That said, a mixed set seems like an interesting way to make it stand out from M-Absol and Honchkrow. May playtest and come back with thoughts.
/looooong post
OK, eggman62 , not sure where to start, so here goes. The confusion point on Machamp isn't the only thing. It's the fact that, as an AV user, Machamp doesn't have to lower its defenses to use a strong STAB move. Hariyama does. 50/50 isn't reliable, yes. But if you don't feel comfortable, why not switch to a teammate that already handles the threat at hand? Guess what? It may just get an absolute free switch-in due to confusion. For example, Florges comes in as Machamp uses DynamicPunch. You aren't running Poison Jab, so you switch out to, say, Roserade. Florges can't do much to it anyway, but she may not do anything at all due to confusion. No Wish, no Moonblast, no nothing. It loses a turn and takes minor damage. This only makes Roserade's job of dealing with Florges easier as it can switch in an extra time if need be. You say it can switch into Nidoking. Sure, it can... once. It suffers the same fate as AV Snorlax. No recovery means King only has to hit it with a STAB move once before it's in 2HKO range on the next switch. SpDef Mew is the only defensive counter to Nidoking that can come in repeatedly without help from the team. Vaporeon is the only common Wish user that can actually fight back against Nidoking. Florges and Umbreon are free switch-ins (Florges especially) and it's not easy to get Wishes off with King around.
Now, you've raised versatility points that I've never addressed. I would like to do that now. It's true that Hariyama can fulfill defensive and offensive roles. Yes, it is not the only Pokemon in the tier that can do this. Just off the top of my head, Tornadus-T, Slowbro, Suicune, Entei, and M-Manectric can all do this as well. Want to know what the difference is between them and Hariyama? Simple; they only need one set to do defense and offense. Tornadus-T, Slowbro, and Entei can all run AV and still have nice offensive presence. Slowbro and Suicune can run defensive sets with Calm Mind to give their teams a win-con and solid checks to serious threats early and mid-game. M-Manectric has Intimidate+Volt Switch to allows its team to take on physical attackers much more easily without cutting into its ability to clean up late-game. Now to Hariyama. To safely handle all Fire-types in the tier, it must run solid defensive investment and Thick Fat. However, this means it loses the firepower that you say makes it so dangerous. Sure, its uninvested Attack isn't awful, but it's not going to be like a boosted Slowbro or Suicune, an AV Entei who can fully invest in its Attack and run Adamant, and it won't hit as hard as a fully invested M-Manectric. You could run Sheer Force to raise the damage output by a significant amount, but you then lose out on the ability to handle many threats defensively like Megadoom, a threat that AV Torn-T and Entei can actually deal with. So, what about Guts? Well, Guts is another way to raise the damage output, but this means you're going to die... quickly. To have Guts active, you must be afflicted with a status condition, probably Poison or Burn. That's at least -6.25% or -12.5% of your max HP every turn. Not to mention any passive damage from hazards, Sandstorm, etc. Think you can check many things defensively now? Nope. Meanwhile, all Entei and Slowbro have to do to raise their bulk immediately is run AV and they still don't have to sac their offensive presence a ton. Oh, and both have MUCH better STAB moves to use in Sacred Fire and Scald, both of which can possibly burn the opponent to lower damage from physical attacks. Hariyama? If you don't want Close Combat, you have to resort to Cross Chop (inaccurate) Brick Break (weak) or Force Palm (even weaker)
Now, does this mean Hariyama is unviable? No, of course not. It's still fairly versatile and is capable of doing some solid things for your team. The problem is that it has severe competition in most roles it tries to fulfill and it usually has to pick what it wants to do: play defense, hit really hard, or absorb status to hit hard? It's hard for Hariyama to do all of these at once, whereas stuff like M-Manectric, Tornadus-T, Entei, and Slowbro can do multiple things with their primary sets. Aside from Entei, all of these Pokemon are S or A rank threats. And why is Entei not at least A rank? Competition from Darmanitan, Victini, and Arcanine. Same reason Hariyama shouldn't be A rank. Competition from Mienshao and Heracross as Fighting-types and the other threats I've mentioned as competition for its roles in general.
No comment on Shiftry as I have yet to use it in UU. That said, a mixed set seems like an interesting way to make it stand out from M-Absol and Honchkrow. May playtest and come back with thoughts.
/looooong post
I suggest around 20 changes to the list.
Suggested rank changes (from lower to higher):
Electivire from D to C: There's no better Electric type using physical attacks, his Speed is not that bad for UU standards.
Barbaracle from C to C+: Shell Smash is too powerful and Tough Claws Razor Shell is a serious threat, specially with the speed it gets after +2.
Flygon from C to C+: Has a strong niche, being an offensive mon with Defog (and being one of the best user gives how resistent is to hazards).
Gallade from C to B-: No MMedicham now means no outclassing much. It's still a potent threat with okay Special Defense bulk.
Jolteon from C to B-: Even more if there weren't for MManectric. Very fast, Average coverage, Viable Choice Specs. Remember that manectric requires a Mega Slot and that should count when it's outclassed.
Moltres from C to B: Stealth Rock is not that common to but Moltres makes up for that. Possibly the best special attacker to the tier. Has a viable movepool in Fire Blast/Hurricane/HP Grass/filler.
Spiritomb from C to C+: Having no resistances (and decent defenses) is great, causing a lot of mind games is fine. Has a semiviable TR set. And is a decent tank.
Claydol from C+ to C-: Right now there are more reliable spinners with offensive presence and no 6 weakness.
Meloetta from C+ to B. The Meloetta-P set is bad. I talk about Meloetta-A You don't know how specially bulky it is. And is actually benefited from being a Normal type. Calm Mind//Hyper Voice//Psychic/Psyshock//Focus Blast/Thunderbolt/Shadow Ball is the best set.
Articuno from B- to C+. Having good defense don't patch the terrible typing. Sorry but Moltres has better type.
Braviary from B- to B. For the Bulk Up Tank version, the presence of reliable Sticky Web, and top Intimidate threats (MManectric) mkeans more switch-in to Defiant. Specially when Staraptor is not back to UU.
Aerodactyl from B to B-: Outclassed by his own Mega forme which is viable using as a lead with Stealth Rock.
Quagsire from B to B+ Unaware is great to deal with a lot fo threats. Also a decent typing.
Ynmaega from B to B+: Less SR and not only one, but two excellent abilities gives enough reason to raise a rank.
Drapion from B+ to B. I don't see why Drapion has such a high rank. I think is Toxic Spikes + Knock Off but there are better Knock Off users and Toxic Spikes is the worst hazard.
Rotom-H from B+ to A-: It's basically Rotom-W (both are Rotom formes) with Fire instead of Water: Has a decently typing (specially with HP Grass/Ice), can run the sets of Rotom-W in UU The problem is that Overheat is not spammable.
Vivillon: From B+ to B: Steel type fodder. Predictable as fuck. Weak defensive stats, specially physucal (not boosted by Quiver Dance).
Jirachi: From A- to A: It's that unpredictable even with two more weakness. What set is going to do? And no0t mention how annoying it is. I even go far and raise to A+ rank.
Smeargle: From A- to B+: Too frail (even with Sash) even with his infinite movepool.
Toxicroak: From A- to B+. No rain this time. Dark coverage is not a solution to bulky Psychic types (like the ones in UU).
Reuniclus: From A to A+: Literally anti-metagame with his TR set that can literally troll a lot of threats. Requires suppoirt against Knock off.
And Meinshao from S to A+ rank: A pokemon with that poor bulk and great but not excellent attacking doesn't deservean S rank.
Suggested rank changes (from lower to higher):
Electivire from D to C: There's no better Electric type using physical attacks, his Speed is not that bad for UU standards.
Barbaracle from C to C+: Shell Smash is too powerful and Tough Claws Razor Shell is a serious threat, specially with the speed it gets after +2.
Flygon from C to C+: Has a strong niche, being an offensive mon with Defog (and being one of the best user gives how resistent is to hazards).
Gallade from C to B-: No MMedicham now means no outclassing much. It's still a potent threat with okay Special Defense bulk.
Jolteon from C to B-: Even more if there weren't for MManectric. Very fast, Average coverage, Viable Choice Specs. Remember that manectric requires a Mega Slot and that should count when it's outclassed.
Moltres from C to B: Stealth Rock is not that common to but Moltres makes up for that. Possibly the best special attacker to the tier. Has a viable movepool in Fire Blast/Hurricane/HP Grass/filler.
Spiritomb from C to C+: Having no resistances (and decent defenses) is great, causing a lot of mind games is fine. Has a semiviable TR set. And is a decent tank.
Claydol from C+ to C-: Right now there are more reliable spinners with offensive presence and no 6 weakness.
Meloetta from C+ to B. The Meloetta-P set is bad. I talk about Meloetta-A You don't know how specially bulky it is. And is actually benefited from being a Normal type. Calm Mind//Hyper Voice//Psychic/Psyshock//Focus Blast/Thunderbolt/Shadow Ball is the best set.
Articuno from B- to C+. Having good defense don't patch the terrible typing. Sorry but Moltres has better type.
Braviary from B- to B. For the Bulk Up Tank version, the presence of reliable Sticky Web, and top Intimidate threats (MManectric) mkeans more switch-in to Defiant. Specially when Staraptor is not back to UU.
Aerodactyl from B to B-: Outclassed by his own Mega forme which is viable using as a lead with Stealth Rock.
Quagsire from B to B+ Unaware is great to deal with a lot fo threats. Also a decent typing.
Ynmaega from B to B+: Less SR and not only one, but two excellent abilities gives enough reason to raise a rank.
Drapion from B+ to B. I don't see why Drapion has such a high rank. I think is Toxic Spikes + Knock Off but there are better Knock Off users and Toxic Spikes is the worst hazard.
Rotom-H from B+ to A-: It's basically Rotom-W (both are Rotom formes) with Fire instead of Water: Has a decently typing (specially with HP Grass/Ice), can run the sets of Rotom-W in UU The problem is that Overheat is not spammable.
Vivillon: From B+ to B: Steel type fodder. Predictable as fuck. Weak defensive stats, specially physucal (not boosted by Quiver Dance).
Jirachi: From A- to A: It's that unpredictable even with two more weakness. What set is going to do? And no0t mention how annoying it is. I even go far and raise to A+ rank.
Smeargle: From A- to B+: Too frail (even with Sash) even with his infinite movepool.
Toxicroak: From A- to B+. No rain this time. Dark coverage is not a solution to bulky Psychic types (like the ones in UU).
Reuniclus: From A to A+: Literally anti-metagame with his TR set that can literally troll a lot of threats. Requires suppoirt against Knock off.
And Meinshao from S to A+ rank: A pokemon with that poor bulk and great but not excellent attacking doesn't deservean S rank.
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nitpick: You have a lot TYPOs
I dont agree with Moltres, the other are just really small changes (like from B to B+ or from B- to C+) with UU being so fluctuating atm we really shouldnt discuss really small changes
idk but i don't think one-liners are enough to justify a rank change... are there any calcs/replays whatever to prove your point? i don't really get what's the niche of a physical electric type in uu for example: either way electivire is still fucking balls (also yeah if we go by that electivire would be viable in ou because the last i checked we don't have any physical electrics there either, not really a major point but still)
honestly the only one that i can /probably/ agree with right now is flygon since literally every good defogger(RIP ZAPDOS FUCK YOU OU) atm is missing from the tier (except for like crobat and empoleon) and flygon serves a different role from those two.
Basically uh... one-liner responses to your one-liner suggestions?
barbaracle: shell smash doesn't mean much: gorebyss is pretty much the poster mon for shell smash sweeping since it can also bp, but it still sucks so yeah. also we have like other smashers like helix (he actually packs greater offensive presence due to hydro pump and his speed disadvantage can be fixed through rain dance or weak armor anyway)
gallade: i dont have much to say on this one but gallade still seems kind of shit to me. his speed is meh and yeah he can setup sd... but so can a lot of other things (toxicroak for instance). he doesn't have mienshao's immediate presence, or toxicroak's ability to setup easily on bulky waters)
jolteon: dude this guy really sucks. yeah it's mostly manectric's fault but really he's just kind of meh. he doesn't have the defensive utility that manectric brings to the table, and his offensive potential is nothing because florges exists and jolteon can never beat florges, especially when he can't even cripple florges with trick like how rotom does
moltres: replays pls, also we have like a chock-bunch of fire types to play with and chandelure is a primary source of competition for moltres, due to 2x sr weak compared to 4x
spiritomb: florges shits upon you (also no resistances is a good thing??? what the fuck? if you meant weakness then please stop living a year in the past, spiritomb is now weak to fairy)
claydol: ok yeah i'd be inclined to agree since claydol is fucking bad but his niche of being a spinner with amazing hazards resilience is something that others can't really replicate. he doesn't exactly /suck/ but he's not complete shit like dusclops either
meloetta: uh... ok? because pirouette's strengths are discounted with just 1 sentence alone. and then you dump a cm set there, claim it's the best, without really explaining why? also florges
articuno:
fuck this shit i'm not typing anymore it's clear you haven't read like the last 3 pages of this thread. there's a good post by rotosect there that shows how articuno basically beats up bulky waters due to freeze-dry, heal bell to get rid of toxic, and pressure + god tier spdef.
honestly the only one that i can /probably/ agree with right now is flygon since literally every good defogger
Basically uh... one-liner responses to your one-liner suggestions?
barbaracle: shell smash doesn't mean much: gorebyss is pretty much the poster mon for shell smash sweeping since it can also bp, but it still sucks so yeah. also we have like other smashers like helix (he actually packs greater offensive presence due to hydro pump and his speed disadvantage can be fixed through rain dance or weak armor anyway)
gallade: i dont have much to say on this one but gallade still seems kind of shit to me. his speed is meh and yeah he can setup sd... but so can a lot of other things (toxicroak for instance). he doesn't have mienshao's immediate presence, or toxicroak's ability to setup easily on bulky waters)
jolteon: dude this guy really sucks. yeah it's mostly manectric's fault but really he's just kind of meh. he doesn't have the defensive utility that manectric brings to the table, and his offensive potential is nothing because florges exists and jolteon can never beat florges, especially when he can't even cripple florges with trick like how rotom does
moltres: replays pls, also we have like a chock-bunch of fire types to play with and chandelure is a primary source of competition for moltres, due to 2x sr weak compared to 4x
spiritomb: florges shits upon you (also no resistances is a good thing??? what the fuck? if you meant weakness then please stop living a year in the past, spiritomb is now weak to fairy)
claydol: ok yeah i'd be inclined to agree since claydol is fucking bad but his niche of being a spinner with amazing hazards resilience is something that others can't really replicate. he doesn't exactly /suck/ but he's not complete shit like dusclops either
meloetta: uh... ok? because pirouette's strengths are discounted with just 1 sentence alone. and then you dump a cm set there, claim it's the best, without really explaining why? also florges
articuno:
fuck this shit i'm not typing anymore it's clear you haven't read like the last 3 pages of this thread. there's a good post by rotosect there that shows how articuno basically beats up bulky waters due to freeze-dry, heal bell to get rid of toxic, and pressure + god tier spdef.
Articuno's job in the tier is countering water types with its bulk and Freeze-Dry. Moltres isn't going to do that anytime soon so they're not comparable. Its offensive set pretty much 2HKO's at worst every single water type in the tier while they can't OHKO back, while the defensive set beats them with a combination of Pressure, Roost, Heal Bell, Freeze-Dry and impressive special bulk (and Haze or Roar for Suicune) while supporting the team. I provided calcs and a replay 3 pages back to show that. Considering how dangerous water types are right now, especially Suicune and Mega Blastoise, it's an important niche so its rank is justified. If it wasn't for the SR weakness it would have been even higher.
Also, I'll just leave this here:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Articuno: 190-224 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Articuno Freeze Dry vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Nidoking: 186-218 (61.1 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Moltres: 200-237 (52 - 61.7%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Moltres Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Nidoking: 183-216 (60.1 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
As long as Articuno comes on something other than Fire Blast, it can PP stall Nidoking with Roost, while Moltres can't do the same.
Even if Articuno does come into Fire Blast, it still has a chance to win. That's just how ridiculously specially bulky it is.
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Where is Granbull?
It's not high tier, but it is the best physically defensive Fairy in the tier. Finds it easy to switch into most of the fighting types in the tier and gets a pretty rocking support movepool to back it up.
It's not high tier, but it is the best physically defensive Fairy in the tier. Finds it easy to switch into most of the fighting types in the tier and gets a pretty rocking support movepool to back it up.
eaglehawk Pretty much what ice beam said, yes the opponent gets confused, no it's not guarenteed the opponent hits himself or even stays confused, regardless you still get a 100 BP fighting STAB off of 130 base attack, which is enough to 2hko a decent number of walls regardless, and machamp has enough bulk to take a hit from most walls and hit back.
TM13IceBeam Don't forget mew, who is quite possibly the single best defogger in the tier atm. Also, while OU stole all good defoggers from us, pretty much every OU spinner from yestergen has come down. They were OU for a reason, look em up some time.
Eievui-Nymphia Proposing a ton of small changes to the viability rankings is probably not the way to go (not that I'm a mod or someone who has any authority on this thread what so ever). May I recommend picking one or two pokemon that you know well and feel strongly about and construct an argument for why you think those one or two pokemon are better or worse then their current ranking? I feel like that would create better discussion.
TM13IceBeam Don't forget mew, who is quite possibly the single best defogger in the tier atm. Also, while OU stole all good defoggers from us, pretty much every OU spinner from yestergen has come down. They were OU for a reason, look em up some time.
Eievui-Nymphia Proposing a ton of small changes to the viability rankings is probably not the way to go (not that I'm a mod or someone who has any authority on this thread what so ever). May I recommend picking one or two pokemon that you know well and feel strongly about and construct an argument for why you think those one or two pokemon are better or worse then their current ranking? I feel like that would create better discussion.
Preliminary ranking for Weavile: A or A+? He's a brutal revenge killer and Knock Off makes him damn near impossible to switch in.
Uhhh wait... Weavile is BL is he not? Should we be ranking BL mons? Because Starapter is an easy S-Rank if so.
They're testing Weavile now.
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