Oh right, yeah...Dang I got it mixed up. I kept thinking of how Silk Scarf P-Z has a slim chance to OHKO Cobalion at +2, and that got kinda glued in my head
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XY UU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Limitless
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Knock Off and Sticky Web are illegal together.
Really? PS lets me use them together.
Yeah, it's in the bug reports thread. Hasn't been addressed yet. Will almost certainly become relevant once RU is a thing though, as knock off is one of leavenny's precious few coverage moves.
Nominating Vullaby for C+ rank. Vullaby is a seriously underrated mon who is unique to UU as a dark type phys wall that's not weak to fighting. With eviolite, it can take a disgusting amount of abuse and roost a lot of it off. Here's some calcs...
252+ Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 121-144 (35.1 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Vullaby Foul Play vs. -1 252 HP / 0 Def Heracross: 157-186 (43.1 - 51%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 156-184 (45.3 - 53.4%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Vullaby Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 265-313 (75.4 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (ohko after recoil)
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 211-250 (61.3 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Vullaby Foul Play vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 390-458 (114.3 - 134.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
3 top tier UU phys threats are checked handily by vullaby, with heracross borderline countered. Roost gives it some serious longevity, and slow u-turns are great for safely bringing in your offensive power houses. For the last slot, you have a huge variety of choices from whirlwind to defog to taunt to toxic, so it can find a spot on a good variety of teams. Overcoat makes it fear hippo a fair bit less and gives it the ever valuable spore / sleep powder immunity (sadly, most sleep powder and spore users are special). Defensive walls have a difficult time forcing out vullaby as well, here.
4 Atk Hippowdon Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 92-110 (26.7 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 76-90 (22 - 26.1%) -- 5.3% chance to 4HKO
4 SpA Amoonguss Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 81-96 (23.5 - 27.9%) -- 81% chance to 4HKO
Now it's not invincible, like all eviolite users, it's defenses are greatly hampered by knock off. It cannot wall cloyster at all, taking about 75% to icicle spear unboosted and easily killed if boosted, so vull's only hope is to foul play on a shell smash. Florges or any super effective special attack also eats vullaby for breakfast, though it can take weaker special hits decently well.
TL;DR Vullaby for C+ rank, discuss.
PS: sorry about double post. Thought more time had passed
252+ Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 121-144 (35.1 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Vullaby Foul Play vs. -1 252 HP / 0 Def Heracross: 157-186 (43.1 - 51%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 156-184 (45.3 - 53.4%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Vullaby Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 265-313 (75.4 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (ohko after recoil)
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 211-250 (61.3 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Vullaby Foul Play vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 390-458 (114.3 - 134.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
3 top tier UU phys threats are checked handily by vullaby, with heracross borderline countered. Roost gives it some serious longevity, and slow u-turns are great for safely bringing in your offensive power houses. For the last slot, you have a huge variety of choices from whirlwind to defog to taunt to toxic, so it can find a spot on a good variety of teams. Overcoat makes it fear hippo a fair bit less and gives it the ever valuable spore / sleep powder immunity (sadly, most sleep powder and spore users are special). Defensive walls have a difficult time forcing out vullaby as well, here.
4 Atk Hippowdon Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 92-110 (26.7 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 76-90 (22 - 26.1%) -- 5.3% chance to 4HKO
4 SpA Amoonguss Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 81-96 (23.5 - 27.9%) -- 81% chance to 4HKO
Now it's not invincible, like all eviolite users, it's defenses are greatly hampered by knock off. It cannot wall cloyster at all, taking about 75% to icicle spear unboosted and easily killed if boosted, so vull's only hope is to foul play on a shell smash. Florges or any super effective special attack also eats vullaby for breakfast, though it can take weaker special hits decently well.
TL;DR Vullaby for C+ rank, discuss.
PS: sorry about double post. Thought more time had passed
vullaby cant switch in with rocks up so it isnt evena semi reliable check, i dont see how it is better than gligar, which isnt even that good this gen with all of the knock off spam. if your physical wall is crippled by one of the most common physical move, then you need to reassess its viability. without eviolite those are all clean 2 hkoes. vullaby shouldn't be raknked.
Heracross usually runs Stone Edge, and Victini Bolt Strike. These calcs don't make any sense.
A neutral V-Create is stronger than an SE Bolt Strike
V-Create: 180*1.5 = 270
Bolt Strike: 130*2=260
Bolt Strike is only used for Water types.
But you are right about the Stone Edge part.
I think Vullaby could be worth being ranked to be honest. It does a fairly decent job at replicating Mandibuzz for this tier, and Gligar can't do much back to a lot of physical attackers, whereas Vullaby can KO or dent a whole heap of stuff thanks to the coveted STAB Foul Play, which is one of the best moves in the game. A C- ranking or thereabouts would fit it nicely, because as the calcs show, it really can take a beating and then dish it back out, and it's as good as (and potentially even better than) some of the other things that are in C rank.
Also, I think Honchkrow should move up to A. It's damn good against both Offense and Stall, and once it gets going with Moxie, it's often game over. Easily one of the scarier sweepers out there, nothing can really take a LO Brave Bird, and it's hard to revenge thanks to boosted Sucker Punches.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-105654762 (Honchkrow sweep)
Also, I think Honchkrow should move up to A. It's damn good against both Offense and Stall, and once it gets going with Moxie, it's often game over. Easily one of the scarier sweepers out there, nothing can really take a LO Brave Bird, and it's hard to revenge thanks to boosted Sucker Punches.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-105654762 (Honchkrow sweep)
Guys... I need someone to give me a very good explanation on why Porygon2 is all the way in B-. Seriously this thing is a monster. First of all it fits so many roles. Bulky attacker? Check. Trick Room sweeper? Check. Physical or special wall depending on Evs? Check. And it's abilities, especially trace and download are all ridiculously good. Bar Knock off and super effective fighting attacks it generally takes jack all from any attack and smash your opponent with either tri attack, bolt beam, Shadow Ball, toxic, thunder wave or just recover off the damage.
There is a really good post in one of the OU forums in which Porygon2 is described as one of the only pokes to exist being able to fulfill the role as a jack of all trades, from checking or countering many top threats to spreading toxic to Sweeping( hint steal sheer force or something like that) porygon2 does all and does it well. I am not nominating P2 yet as I want to see what others think. Agreed the presence of meinshao, heracross and knock off keeps him from being top tier, but I feel porygon2 is deserving of A or A- at least
There is a really good post in one of the OU forums in which Porygon2 is described as one of the only pokes to exist being able to fulfill the role as a jack of all trades, from checking or countering many top threats to spreading toxic to Sweeping( hint steal sheer force or something like that) porygon2 does all and does it well. I am not nominating P2 yet as I want to see what others think. Agreed the presence of meinshao, heracross and knock off keeps him from being top tier, but I feel porygon2 is deserving of A or A- at least
Unlike Umbreon and Florges; Porygon 2 doesn't appreciate a Knock Off. After losing Eviolite it's not much of a threat
Should run Agility over Substitute so you can outpace pretty much every Scarfer who'll stop your Sweep otherwise. If you find Porygon Z a target for status ailment you can slap Lum Berry on it(especially a sleep or para). Although, Life Orb/Silk Scarf's damage boost helps tremendously.
From all the battles I've witnessed, I have yet to see Porygon Z get away with keeping a Substitute up the same turn it was set. While, I've seen it Agility to outpace and ohko Scarfers who come in.
Tri Attack and Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse is the only coverage Porygon Z needs.
Cobalion and Carbink resist Dark Pulse and Tri Attack but Adaptability boosted Tri Attacks hurt them the same as a neutral Shadow Ball, if running Adaptability just run Dark Pulse for crucial flinches when needed(flinch > Special Defence Drop)
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Since when do sun teams need sticky web since all chlorophyl users are at +2 speed thanks to well chlopophyl. It is not like much is gonna outspeed a Victreebell or Shiftry in the sun.
I was using it mostly for Mega Houndoom. He's rather hard to wall and with Sticky Web support, he's difficult to revenge kill as well.
And speaking of Sticky Web, is Galvantula deserving of B+ for the being the best user of it? SW is infinitely better in UU than OU, and offense teams often have to remove it at all costs due to how crippling it can be. Easier said than done too sometimes, since most defoggers are flying or water types, which get fried by Thunder (Blastoise, Empoleon, Crobat, etc). Neutralizing Darm and Victini's Scarves, and making Weavile much more managable, to name a few things, has often been more valuable for me than Stealth Rocks.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-105684088 (abusing Sticky Web with a King's Rock Cinccino)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-105684088 (abusing Sticky Web with a King's Rock Cinccino)
True but before a knock off its easily way scarier than either and while I understand that it's slightly outclassed by Flower Power and Umbreon it does have advantages being more reliable recovery, versatility, better overall bulk depending on investment and it's ability to use an attacker or defenders ability against them
That was me on one of my alts. I think Smeargle is probably the best user of SW because of its utility, and relying on King's Rock isn't a real strategy. The only reason why you won was the two flinches on my physically defensive blastoise. That's like saying Bright Powder Jirachi is really good simply because I got lucky with the misses.
actually, the best user of sticky web is smeargle, because it can use explosion on the foe's rapid spinner/defogger, preventing them from spinning that turn; then, you can simply send something that can outspeed and OHKO the spinner, so they won't have an easy time cleaning the field. if their spinner/defogger is faster than smeargle, you can just put them to sleep with spore (or dark void in some cases)
Right, Smeargle probably is better because of Spore and other hazards. Galvantula has a reasonable offensive ability though, and a better speed tier, which makes sure it isn't outclassed. And hitting the common spinners and defoggers for big damage with Thunder is often doing a similar thing as Exploding with Smeargle then sending in something to KO.
The CC calc is there because many hera's are scarfed, and it's reletively rare for a wall to be able to come in on hara's CC and threaten it out repeatedly. Stone edge is obviously a threat, here's that calc.
252+ Atk Heracross Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 136-160 (39.5 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
For an SE coverage move from one of the top UU threats, that's actually not bad. Obviously if eviolite is gone or if SR is on ur side, vullaby is boned, which is why C-something rank is appropriate for it imo.
Vullaby's niche is it's ability to check physical boosting sweepers, like this one.
+2 252+ Atk Kingdra Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Vullaby in Rain: 202-238 (58.7 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0 Atk Vullaby Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 286-337 (98.2 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
that's +2 and rain, which is enough for kingdra to outright sweep a lot of teams, yet even with SR on vullaby's side, it comfortably checks at +2.
Like I said, vullaby is not the greatest mon ever, but I think it is viable, being able to take strong neutral hits and even some weak SE hits and threaten out phys sweepers who don't really care about toxic or weak STAB moves like uninvested EQ.
WebBowser , the problem is that any RD Kingdra should really be special or special-based. Physical walls far outnumber special walls in XY UU and it isn't like Umbreon is able to do much to Kingdra anyway. Obviously, you could slap Waterfall on a RD set to stick it to Florges since you've got nothing better against it and switching is just wasting a turn of rain. But still, I don't see Vullaby handling a typical RD Kingdra set.
The problem for all Eviolite users is Knock Off. For example, Vullaby should be able to outright counter Krookodile, but it simply can't due to Knock Off. Virtually every Fighting-type (Shao, Cross, and Champ) all run Knock Off, so Vullaby isn't necessarily safe against them. With Eviolite removed, Vullaby can no longer switch-in at will against Cross or Shao due to the extreme BP of their STAB moves. Champ is a little better, but that confusion rate has a 50/50 shot of screwing you over. Basically, unless an Eviolite user can still wall most of or the entire end of a spectrum AFTER being hit with Knock Off, it's very hard to justify using over something like Slowbro, Hippowdon, Umbreon, or Florges who can all still handle many attackers on their end of the spectrum.
The problem for all Eviolite users is Knock Off. For example, Vullaby should be able to outright counter Krookodile, but it simply can't due to Knock Off. Virtually every Fighting-type (Shao, Cross, and Champ) all run Knock Off, so Vullaby isn't necessarily safe against them. With Eviolite removed, Vullaby can no longer switch-in at will against Cross or Shao due to the extreme BP of their STAB moves. Champ is a little better, but that confusion rate has a 50/50 shot of screwing you over. Basically, unless an Eviolite user can still wall most of or the entire end of a spectrum AFTER being hit with Knock Off, it's very hard to justify using over something like Slowbro, Hippowdon, Umbreon, or Florges who can all still handle many attackers on their end of the spectrum.
More of a query then a suggestion but what are the reasons for Virizion's low placement, seems to have a fair amount going for it.
Poor physical bulk, which hinders it considering how many powerful physical attackers are in UU, and many of the bulky waters that Virizion could theoretically check have ways to deal with it: Slowbrow has Psyshock, Suicune can burn physical Virizion, or boost and Pressure stall special Virizion, Blastoise has a very powerful Ice Beam, etc. Then, it's lacking in power. Base 90 doesn't cut it without a LOT of boosts, or, in Victini's case, a STAB base 180 BP move, and Virizion finds it hard to set up multiple boosts thanks to it's poor Defense.
UU is just unkind to it. But fret not, RU is just around the corner, and it might find a home there.
UU is just unkind to it. But fret not, RU is just around the corner, and it might find a home there.
You have a lot of good points, but naming an S rank mon and 3 A+ rank mons as reasons why Vullaby doesn't even deserve a ranking seems a tad unfair imo. Slowbro, Hippo, Florges, and even Umbreon have very different support movepools then Vullaby, so they're kind of hard to compare. For starters, precisely none of them are capable of hazard removal.
*edit*
Forgot about Gligar and Togetic, whom are vullaby's primary competition for phys defensive hazard removers with reliable recovery (as well as mew and Flygon). Gligar has better stats and SR neutrality, but can't really do much to enemies without an SE EQ, which limits the offensive mons it threatens out to pretty much Darm and V. Togetic is a bit better at breaking walls and tanks with S-toss, as well as having the highly coveted fairy typing, but it's health stat is abysmal. Niether gligar nor togetic can phaze, giving vullaby another niche.
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Virizion lacks initial power, but it can get boosts like insanely easily due to its good defensive typing. Swords Dance Virizion only really needs one boost to do work, because what its STABs lack in overall coverage, it allows it to strike down popular walls like Porygon2, Hippowdon, Quagsire, Mega Aggron, Slowbro, and Vaporeon with ease. Scalds from bulky Waters suck, but Lum Berry is not a bad item to equip on SD Virizion anyway, as it allows it to set up much easier on them. Calm Mind Virizion on the other hand can also deal with specially bulky Pokemon like Umbreon, Snorlax, Milotic, and Gastrodon. Calm Mind even lets it set up on the likes of Florges, Mega Ampharos, and Mega Blastoise. Either way, Virizion does the role of 'Grass-type setup sweeper' very admirably. Also, Lord of Bays , I never found its Defense stat to be that much of a bother: high Defense doesn't help against the nukes that are Darmanitan and Victini and it has a 4x Flying weakness anyway (Chesnaught anyone?), and its current Defense is still good enough to take resisted attacks like Sucker Punch, Stone Edge, and Earthquake. If you're gonna harp on its Defense, why not make a note on its good special bulk? MegaStoise, plus offensive Calm Mind Suicune, are not beating Virizion unless they Ice Beam on the switch.
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I've never done this before, so hopefully I'm doing this right, but I'd like to nominate Lickilicky for B-/C+ rank. He's the third biggest Wish passer in the tier behind Alomomola and Wigglytuff, but unlike the two aforementioned Pokes, Lickilicky operates as a bulky mixed wall. However, the real kicker for Lickilicky this gen is the mechanic change to one of his abilities, Oblivious, which now prevents Taunt. With access to moves like Wish and Heal Bell, Lickilicky is the only healer and cleric outside the much less bulky Aromatisse who can't be deterred from supporting his team.
The strong presence of Fighting types in UU, as well as Lickilicky's low speed, work against his ranking, but I think his movepool, bulk, and ability to fit on almost any team outshine these flaws. There are numerous Pokemon Lickilicky could be partnered with (Slowbro/Slowking, Granbull, etc.) to cover the Fighting weakness, anyway.
The strong presence of Fighting types in UU, as well as Lickilicky's low speed, work against his ranking, but I think his movepool, bulk, and ability to fit on almost any team outshine these flaws. There are numerous Pokemon Lickilicky could be partnered with (Slowbro/Slowking, Granbull, etc.) to cover the Fighting weakness, anyway.
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