252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Trevenant: 226-268 (60.4 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I'm not so sure about that.
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XY UU Viability Ranking Thread
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I'm not so sure about that.
Thanks Genosuke, you understood my point, which I unfortunately did not make clear. For spinners, I generally set the benchmark at beating Sp. Def Trevenant, which while somewhat shaky (due to required prediction), starmie can beat, while forretress does squat (well I suppose it could set more hazards, but I'm thinking in terms of spinning against it).
Forretress certainly requires help in the spinning department, preferably from a pursuit user or just a strong dark attacker in general, would be my point.
Forretress certainly requires help in the spinning department, preferably from a pursuit user or just a strong dark attacker in general, would be my point.
If we're gonna be honest, it's pretty obvious that the offensive spinners (Starmie, Blaster, and Donphan, you could add Lee and Cloy but they come with a big opportunity cost) are gonna have an easier time against spinblockers because they hit harder, that isn't even a question. Last gen the problem was that we absolutely lacked offensive spinners, meaning that offensive teams preferred carrying Xatu or nada before running Top or Blaster—some people used Offensive Blaster, but that is another big opportunity cost.
Forretress can't for the life of it beat spinblockers one on one, but it can outlast them with Wish support due to being able to set up hazards too.
So I think this argument is a bit moot because you're gonna be using Forry on defensive teams and the others on BO/Offense teams because they exchange durability for beating ghosts one on one—Donphan requires hazards and speed creeping to beat Jelli and the Grass Ghosts, but it can actually beat them, unlike Tenta or Forry that need to outlast them with Toxic damage.
Forretress can't for the life of it beat spinblockers one on one, but it can outlast them with Wish support due to being able to set up hazards too.
So I think this argument is a bit moot because you're gonna be using Forry on defensive teams and the others on BO/Offense teams because they exchange durability for beating ghosts one on one—Donphan requires hazards and speed creeping to beat Jelli and the Grass Ghosts, but it can actually beat them, unlike Tenta or Forry that need to outlast them with Toxic damage.
A+ rank for the big hippo.
Hippo is so reliable and being able to tailor him as either a mixed wall to beat stuff like mega houndoom as well as a pure physical wall makes him even better. Yeah he gives some guys opportunities to come in since it's usually just eq + WW (or coverage move in some cases) but being such a good wall should warrant him being A+ I think. He's very easy to fit on a team and he usually does his job very well. Yeah he can be fogged or spun on, but he's still doing his job of checking a bunch of threats even if your opponent has ways to stop him keeping SR up.
A rank for forretress
Forre is a really good hazard setter, possibly the best in the tier, but he needs support to get past dedicated spinblockers and if he wants to get past the defoggers like mew / flygon he's going to have to use toxic somewhere and forre already has 4MSS so ehhh... Plus more scary stuff can set up on foretress since his offenses aren't exactly stellar. So being able to work around / set up on forre imo prevents him from being A+ rank, so that's why my vote goes to A.
Hippo is so reliable and being able to tailor him as either a mixed wall to beat stuff like mega houndoom as well as a pure physical wall makes him even better. Yeah he gives some guys opportunities to come in since it's usually just eq + WW (or coverage move in some cases) but being such a good wall should warrant him being A+ I think. He's very easy to fit on a team and he usually does his job very well. Yeah he can be fogged or spun on, but he's still doing his job of checking a bunch of threats even if your opponent has ways to stop him keeping SR up.
A rank for forretress
Forre is a really good hazard setter, possibly the best in the tier, but he needs support to get past dedicated spinblockers and if he wants to get past the defoggers like mew / flygon he's going to have to use toxic somewhere and forre already has 4MSS so ehhh... Plus more scary stuff can set up on foretress since his offenses aren't exactly stellar. So being able to work around / set up on forre imo prevents him from being A+ rank, so that's why my vote goes to A.
I also want to stress that you shouldn't just be thinking about the characteristics of Pokemon. Especially when we are getting into the sub-categories of ranks, it is less about definitions of ranks and more about comparisons. For example, it's kind of dumb to think that Hippowdon is as potent and useful as Victini. Obviously, they are hard to compare, but it's a little absurd to me to think they should be in the same rank. In my opinion, Hippowdon compares relatively well to Suicune, in A rank. Both are slightly niche Pokemon that fill certain roles, and are still quite deadly/useful in their own right. Keep in mind guys, the rankings before were inflated. We want to spread these rankings out.
I would agree with all of you on forretress here. He's a great SR/Spikes/Toxic Spikes lead, and can negate spore users with overcoat. With sturdy, he can ensure that he sets up hazards as well, and not to mention rapid spin, which allows him to be a 2 in 1 pokemon
I would even go as far as to say that Hippowdon is A- rank. It is almost a liability against Stall, as almost any Stealth Rocker and Spiker can set up on it, and doesn't wall much of note against Offense besides Megaman, as anything else that it does wall, it has to spam Slack Off due to being absurdly close to a 2HKO, giving the opponent free turns. The meta just isn't as kind to Hippowdon anymore, and without perma-sand, it struggles to find synergy with its old team members.
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 175-207 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 172-204 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 173-204 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 238-281 (56.6 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 169-199 (40.2 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
It's cool that it survives all these 2HKOs, but Hippowdon isn't going to turn the tides of the match by countering these threats by the skin of its teeth. Heaven forbid if your opponent gets a crit or has one layer of Spikes up, which isn't that unreasonable as Hippo is one of the biggest Forry baits ever. Also one final thing to note is that it can't run Careful and Impish at the same time, so its hardly as big of a wall as would like to be.
All of this is coming from someone who has been using Hippowdon since the Gen IV days of KG stall.
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 175-207 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 172-204 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 173-204 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 238-281 (56.6 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 169-199 (40.2 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
It's cool that it survives all these 2HKOs, but Hippowdon isn't going to turn the tides of the match by countering these threats by the skin of its teeth. Heaven forbid if your opponent gets a crit or has one layer of Spikes up, which isn't that unreasonable as Hippo is one of the biggest Forry baits ever. Also one final thing to note is that it can't run Careful and Impish at the same time, so its hardly as big of a wall as would like to be.
All of this is coming from someone who has been using Hippowdon since the Gen IV days of KG stall.
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pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
Hippo can be b+ because it can't actually set up rocks that reliably. what you say?!?! isn't it one of the bulkiest rocks users?!?!?! yes but every single spinner and defogger except empoleon i guess (which can actually gets into torrent range by eq so its not /that/ bad) and xatu can switch into Hippowdon and since the spinners are so strong they can spin themselves or in forry's case set up his own hazards all of which hippo incidentally hates. Hippo's defense can also be bypassed by basically every single physical attacker if they shift to more offensive sets (scarfcross-->sd heracross) which of course has a change in utility but that means hippo reliably counters very little amounts of Pokemon.
pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
forry is weak to fire moves and has really high defense. access to toxic spikes is wonderful since many teams are weak to them and stall teams can almost literally just snipe off teams by sitting in a fat Pokemon (cressy, florges, snorlax, you know what I'm talking about) to stall out an entire 5-6 mons very easily if they have no toxic spikes response.
still that's not forry doing all the work though so you can't really credit it that much. a lot of people use volt switch and gyro ball I think which is pretty dumb in my opinion especially for stall since that means you can only get one hazard if you also use rapid spin. stall really is always strapped for spaces and everything must have some tangible utility so condensing a spinner and hazard setter AND a last resort physical wall into one slot is more than useful it is actually incredibly potent and makes many stall teams viable that couldn't be before.
nothing else has forry's utility on a stall team. damage comes from hazards and forry is setting up a good lot of them and getting rid of them at least a third or so of the time.
unfortunately lack of recovery random things sniping hp fire and fire blast (slowbro but honestly its not often wise to try and set up on him anyways) and vulnerability to most common hazards means forry is overworked without wish support and nother physical walls to help ease out the damage. on stall at least wish support is easy to come by since most of the time you will be using a chansey-esque pokemon (florges, umbreon, lolaudino, lollickilicky) so it's not /that/ big of a problem but I find passing wishes much easier said than done personally. I might just be bad at reading my opponent.
from a stall user's viewpoint I wouldn't mind seeing forry in A+ or A
still that's not forry doing all the work though so you can't really credit it that much. a lot of people use volt switch and gyro ball I think which is pretty dumb in my opinion especially for stall since that means you can only get one hazard if you also use rapid spin. stall really is always strapped for spaces and everything must have some tangible utility so condensing a spinner and hazard setter AND a last resort physical wall into one slot is more than useful it is actually incredibly potent and makes many stall teams viable that couldn't be before.
nothing else has forry's utility on a stall team. damage comes from hazards and forry is setting up a good lot of them and getting rid of them at least a third or so of the time.
unfortunately lack of recovery random things sniping hp fire and fire blast (slowbro but honestly its not often wise to try and set up on him anyways) and vulnerability to most common hazards means forry is overworked without wish support and nother physical walls to help ease out the damage. on stall at least wish support is easy to come by since most of the time you will be using a chansey-esque pokemon (florges, umbreon, lolaudino, lollickilicky) so it's not /that/ big of a problem but I find passing wishes much easier said than done personally. I might just be bad at reading my opponent.
from a stall user's viewpoint I wouldn't mind seeing forry in A+ or A
The XY UU tier is a much better home than the weather centric BW OU metagame that Forry was attempting to compete in last generation. Forry finds home on Balance teams that have sweepers good at luring in walls like the aforementioned Hippowdon, as well as Florges, Umbreon, Fire Punch-less Snorlax, and Aromatisse. Forry is able to use these walls all as massive set-up bait, and gives those sweepers the hazard support needed to eventually push through their counters. This hazard support is exacerbated by the fact that all but Hippowdon and Moonlight Umbreon lack one-turn recovery.
People were mentioning that Forry struggles to do both of its jobs in setting hazards and spinning, but I think that's actually inaccurate, as taking out Forry can be difficult for opposing Balance and especially Stall teams, who are forced to switch in their spinblocker in order to preserve hazards (their only source of momentum), which does nothing to stop the cascade of hazards coming out of Forry's ass. Also people mentioning Defoggers, none of them like taking a slow Volt Switch to the face, which lets the Forry user bring in a nuke for free opportunity cost, as the defogger is removing the hazards, and no defogger is slower than Forry.
I didn't want to voice my opinion as I'm not too sure how Forry holds up against Offense, but based on what I mentioned above, I really cannot see a well-played Forry being anything less than A rank worthy. It's a shame though, as most people don't know how to properly teambuild to support a good Forry.
Also people: try using All-out Attacker Mega 'Stoise with Forry. Lures in Florges like no other, and Mega Stoise's coverage shits all over every common Defogger. In return, Mega'Stoise stomachs all of the Flare Blitzes and V Creates looking to exploit Forry's only weakness. Mega Houndoom also has similar synergy with Forry, but leaves you open to Hydreigon(who currently shouldn't be mentioned in UU rankings, but just putting it out there)
People were mentioning that Forry struggles to do both of its jobs in setting hazards and spinning, but I think that's actually inaccurate, as taking out Forry can be difficult for opposing Balance and especially Stall teams, who are forced to switch in their spinblocker in order to preserve hazards (their only source of momentum), which does nothing to stop the cascade of hazards coming out of Forry's ass. Also people mentioning Defoggers, none of them like taking a slow Volt Switch to the face, which lets the Forry user bring in a nuke for free opportunity cost, as the defogger is removing the hazards, and no defogger is slower than Forry.
I didn't want to voice my opinion as I'm not too sure how Forry holds up against Offense, but based on what I mentioned above, I really cannot see a well-played Forry being anything less than A rank worthy. It's a shame though, as most people don't know how to properly teambuild to support a good Forry.
Also people: try using All-out Attacker Mega 'Stoise with Forry. Lures in Florges like no other, and Mega Stoise's coverage shits all over every common Defogger. In return, Mega'Stoise stomachs all of the Flare Blitzes and V Creates looking to exploit Forry's only weakness. Mega Houndoom also has similar synergy with Forry, but leaves you open to Hydreigon
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Follow up from my previous post after seeing some others help me understand Hippo and Forry a little better (hey, I said I didn't have much experience using them, only facing them lol)
So, yeah, I'm not a stall player at all, so I kinda had to air on the side of caution with Hippo because I didn't really know how it played against more defensive teams (if it could outlast Defog users, Spinners, etc.) considering I personally don't use stall teams nor do I really have much experience with using Hippo in general. Lurked around the ladder today and saw some of these type of matchups to give me a better idea of how Hippo does against stall teams, and to put it bluntly, it sucks. That base 112 Attack is nothing uninvested when it comes to trying to actually deter shit like Slowbro, Mew, and even Umbreon from coming in at will to do whatever. WW can keep Bro from setting up CMs at will, but its not like Scald is going to be something Hippo likes taking. Reckless Shao, SD/CB Cross, CB Victini, and LO Honchkrow are just some of the physical attackers that break past it with either just a little prior damage, or none at all. Definitely feel it should be A- rank. It's near a complete liability against stall teams and has a hard time holding up against the most common physical attacking wallbreakers. Hippo's only saving grace is a one-turn recovery move, and access to both Rocks and WW.
Forretress is definitely A rank. The slow Volt Switch is beneficial to virtually any team out there. Forry is tough for balance and stall teams to take down due to the points Meru brought up, while at the same time, being very nice on stall teams due to access to Toxic Spikes. While its performance against many balance and stall teams alongside its ability to fit onto many team archetypes makes it A+ rank, its inability to do much of anything to directly force out the likes of Mega-Houndoom, Slowbro, Mew, and Victini make it drop to A rank imo. As more of an offense/bulky offense player, I generally don't have too many issues forcing out / setting up on Forry. Mega-Houndoom shits all over it between speeding up with Flame Charge if Forry is on more of an offensive team (they love slow Volt Switches) or just cranking up its damage output with NP if Forry is on a stall team. Of course, this is a bit unfair to Forry as Mega-Houndoom is possibly the best Pokemon in the tier right now, and a lot of Pokemon can become setup fodder for Megadoom. However, it also can't really stop the likes of Slowbro, Mew, and Victini from coming in at will unless it has already used the appropriate entry hazard (Rocks for Tini and TSpikes for Bro and Mew) The utility Forretress brings can't be overlooked, but it also can't be overstated. While it brings great utility, it also forces you to be doubly sure you have answers for 4 of the top threats in the metagame right now. All of this makes it A rank imo. Guess I wouldn't be upset with A+, but I feel that would be a tad too high.
So, yeah, I'm not a stall player at all, so I kinda had to air on the side of caution with Hippo because I didn't really know how it played against more defensive teams (if it could outlast Defog users, Spinners, etc.) considering I personally don't use stall teams nor do I really have much experience with using Hippo in general. Lurked around the ladder today and saw some of these type of matchups to give me a better idea of how Hippo does against stall teams, and to put it bluntly, it sucks. That base 112 Attack is nothing uninvested when it comes to trying to actually deter shit like Slowbro, Mew, and even Umbreon from coming in at will to do whatever. WW can keep Bro from setting up CMs at will, but its not like Scald is going to be something Hippo likes taking. Reckless Shao, SD/CB Cross, CB Victini, and LO Honchkrow are just some of the physical attackers that break past it with either just a little prior damage, or none at all. Definitely feel it should be A- rank. It's near a complete liability against stall teams and has a hard time holding up against the most common physical attacking wallbreakers. Hippo's only saving grace is a one-turn recovery move, and access to both Rocks and WW.
Forretress is definitely A rank. The slow Volt Switch is beneficial to virtually any team out there. Forry is tough for balance and stall teams to take down due to the points Meru brought up, while at the same time, being very nice on stall teams due to access to Toxic Spikes. While its performance against many balance and stall teams alongside its ability to fit onto many team archetypes makes it A+ rank, its inability to do much of anything to directly force out the likes of Mega-Houndoom, Slowbro, Mew, and Victini make it drop to A rank imo. As more of an offense/bulky offense player, I generally don't have too many issues forcing out / setting up on Forry. Mega-Houndoom shits all over it between speeding up with Flame Charge if Forry is on more of an offensive team (they love slow Volt Switches) or just cranking up its damage output with NP if Forry is on a stall team. Of course, this is a bit unfair to Forry as Mega-Houndoom is possibly the best Pokemon in the tier right now, and a lot of Pokemon can become setup fodder for Megadoom. However, it also can't really stop the likes of Slowbro, Mew, and Victini from coming in at will unless it has already used the appropriate entry hazard (Rocks for Tini and TSpikes for Bro and Mew) The utility Forretress brings can't be overlooked, but it also can't be overstated. While it brings great utility, it also forces you to be doubly sure you have answers for 4 of the top threats in the metagame right now. All of this makes it A rank imo. Guess I wouldn't be upset with A+, but I feel that would be a tad too high.
Lol Hippo is an excellent mon, it doesn't suck against stall (it's not great either, but it's definitely not a pushover) and can take damage from both sides like a boss. Careful Hippo is the single best Raikou counter (phys def runs out of Slack Off PP before Raikou runs out of Hidden Powers), as well as most Electrics bar Eel. It's also an excellent check to Mega Houndoom and can take on Chandy on a pinch. Hippo can also beat Nidoking if it switches into anything but Ice Beam, so chain switching into it is not out of the question. Sure, now it faces a 2HKO from Honch, but it can win one on one—since Honch is slowly killing itself—even without Stone Edge. It might not counter much, but it's an excellent check to so many mons it's not even funny. It actually saved me once where after some hax I was up against a Specs Yanmega and a Jirachi, being able to beat both by virtue of PP stalling Bug Buzz and surviving the Iron Heads—luckily not getting flinched to death.
Listing the stuff that will be able to break it w/ ridiculously powerful unresisted hits doesn't make it worse, it actually means that it can beat those one on one and makes it look even better, imo. Slowbro's uninvested Scald isn't doing much to many things if it doesn't get burns (yea yea I know, moot because Scald always burns). That doesn't happen to Hippo thanks to having a stronger STAB and higher base Attack. Note that this isn't arguing Slowbro is worse or anything like that, but I think we can all agree that if it weren't for Scald it wouldn't be as great—except against Fire-types, obviously. Hippo, on the other hand, can rely only on its STAB to beat most of the stuff it checks. And that's pretty fucking good, imo.
I swear to god either we play completely different metagames or I'm crazy, but really, I've not once felt Hippo wasn't pulling its weight, not even when it looked like it could do little besides setting up rocks and racking up some hazard/sand damage.
LL you compared it to Suicune, well even though I think Cune is A+ rank Hippo shouldn't go lower than A. But do whatever you want, honestly I dunno why I even bother to argue when it's obvious people have already made up their minds, but at least I'm stating my opinion.
Please do not reply to this.
EDIT: OK so apparently people think that my post was built around sarcasm. Limitless I'm sorry that I left that sensation because that wasn't my point. I shouldn't have started with 'lol' prolly to make it more serious, but people opinions just surprised me which is why I said it. Just to make it clear do not think this is sarcastic. I'm stating my opinion and nothing else, and when I say I don't wanna argue is because we're not gonna convince each other of the opposite. It's not an attempt to seek you out or make you mad, so don't do that to me. Apologies for the misunderstanding. Peace out
Listing the stuff that will be able to break it w/ ridiculously powerful unresisted hits doesn't make it worse, it actually means that it can beat those one on one and makes it look even better, imo. Slowbro's uninvested Scald isn't doing much to many things if it doesn't get burns (yea yea I know, moot because Scald always burns). That doesn't happen to Hippo thanks to having a stronger STAB and higher base Attack. Note that this isn't arguing Slowbro is worse or anything like that, but I think we can all agree that if it weren't for Scald it wouldn't be as great—except against Fire-types, obviously. Hippo, on the other hand, can rely only on its STAB to beat most of the stuff it checks. And that's pretty fucking good, imo.
I swear to god either we play completely different metagames or I'm crazy, but really, I've not once felt Hippo wasn't pulling its weight, not even when it looked like it could do little besides setting up rocks and racking up some hazard/sand damage.
LL you compared it to Suicune, well even though I think Cune is A+ rank Hippo shouldn't go lower than A. But do whatever you want, honestly I dunno why I even bother to argue when it's obvious people have already made up their minds, but at least I'm stating my opinion.
Please do not reply to this.
EDIT: OK so apparently people think that my post was built around sarcasm. Limitless I'm sorry that I left that sensation because that wasn't my point. I shouldn't have started with 'lol' prolly to make it more serious, but people opinions just surprised me which is why I said it. Just to make it clear do not think this is sarcastic. I'm stating my opinion and nothing else, and when I say I don't wanna argue is because we're not gonna convince each other of the opposite. It's not an attempt to seek you out or make you mad, so don't do that to me. Apologies for the misunderstanding. Peace out
pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
Why aren't we allowed to reply to you ernesto...some of your points do not make sense to me and i wanted to clear it up
ignore this post and even delete it if you really didn't want responses for some legitimate reason but um yeah I'm doing a response now
First of all I think it really really does suck against stall because it is complete set up bait and as you have noted a great amount of utility Hippowdon offers is because it can check lots of offensive threats (not quite as many as you think though as I will get to later). That utility is 99% useless against stall which doesn't hire the service of offensive threats. The SR is useful of course and the phazing might be useful too but SR can come in from many many more Pokemon that offers more utility and the phazing thing is only very useful if you need a way to tactically kill Umbreon/Florges trying to Wish (this is rare in my games) or if you use more hazards: which goes to show it's not really hippo that is great but the other hazard users as well. I mean you could say most defensive Pokemon are set up bait which is completely true in my opinion but most of them at least offer more utility against defensive teams (Umbreon can keep a team healthy with wish/heal bell, Mew can defog and try and stall break, etc etc)
Also I never meant to say nor do I think I said Hippo was bad, B+ is still really good I thought just from looking at the definitions of the ranks.
Hippowdon by lots of conventional definitions does check the threats you listed but that's not really good enough. If it wants to do that like switch into Nidoking's earth power or face a +2 Megadoom it is going to be at like maybe 10% at the end of the turn if its lucky. Unless your opponent has a choiced electric Pokemon Hippo is pretty much going to die very very soon and have maybe just a tiny bit of utility left as death fodder and a sand setter.
Also consider you can't run 252/252/252 impish/careful Hippo which I know you sort of noted but I think you underestimate how physically frail Hippo can be without defense evs (personally I like to run 252 hp 252 spdef impish but eh that might not be the best). Without defense it's facing potential OHKOs at 100% health from SD Heracross and guys like Machamp are now almost certainly going to beat you with an easy 3hko buffed by potential freezes and full confusions. You can't even think about countering Victini anymore which can beat you with both special and scarf sets with a 2hko and darm and mienshao and blah blah basically every single decently powered physical attacker. Also spdef hippo can't beat honch as easily as you seem to think 1vs1 since honch can roost off recoil damage, if the hippo user makes constantly bad plays and slacks off on the roost and eqs on a bb then hippo will be losing. Let me repeat, 252/0 careful hippo can counter essentially 0 physical attacker Pokemon (though hippo can still counter some specific sets. they are just really weak sets like scarf flygon). That is not very good for a defensive Pokemon.
Countering though is a tad overrated which is why I still think Hippo is high B or maybeeee low A, more offensive teams don't necessarily need to counter threats they just need some bulk or speed to make sure they aren't swept by Pokemon X.
Also I haven't made up my mind I think this entire project is slightly ridiculous (but still quite helpful) and far too subjective to have any real definitive order, I suspect that if I hadn't read the hippo posts before me I would have put it lower than B+ but something like groupthink is getting to me.
ignore this post and even delete it if you really didn't want responses for some legitimate reason but um yeah I'm doing a response now
First of all I think it really really does suck against stall because it is complete set up bait and as you have noted a great amount of utility Hippowdon offers is because it can check lots of offensive threats (not quite as many as you think though as I will get to later). That utility is 99% useless against stall which doesn't hire the service of offensive threats. The SR is useful of course and the phazing might be useful too but SR can come in from many many more Pokemon that offers more utility and the phazing thing is only very useful if you need a way to tactically kill Umbreon/Florges trying to Wish (this is rare in my games) or if you use more hazards: which goes to show it's not really hippo that is great but the other hazard users as well. I mean you could say most defensive Pokemon are set up bait which is completely true in my opinion but most of them at least offer more utility against defensive teams (Umbreon can keep a team healthy with wish/heal bell, Mew can defog and try and stall break, etc etc)
Also I never meant to say nor do I think I said Hippo was bad, B+ is still really good I thought just from looking at the definitions of the ranks.
Hippowdon by lots of conventional definitions does check the threats you listed but that's not really good enough. If it wants to do that like switch into Nidoking's earth power or face a +2 Megadoom it is going to be at like maybe 10% at the end of the turn if its lucky. Unless your opponent has a choiced electric Pokemon Hippo is pretty much going to die very very soon and have maybe just a tiny bit of utility left as death fodder and a sand setter.
Also consider you can't run 252/252/252 impish/careful Hippo which I know you sort of noted but I think you underestimate how physically frail Hippo can be without defense evs (personally I like to run 252 hp 252 spdef impish but eh that might not be the best). Without defense it's facing potential OHKOs at 100% health from SD Heracross and guys like Machamp are now almost certainly going to beat you with an easy 3hko buffed by potential freezes and full confusions. You can't even think about countering Victini anymore which can beat you with both special and scarf sets with a 2hko and darm and mienshao and blah blah basically every single decently powered physical attacker. Also spdef hippo can't beat honch as easily as you seem to think 1vs1 since honch can roost off recoil damage, if the hippo user makes constantly bad plays and slacks off on the roost and eqs on a bb then hippo will be losing. Let me repeat, 252/0 careful hippo can counter essentially 0 physical attacker Pokemon (though hippo can still counter some specific sets. they are just really weak sets like scarf flygon). That is not very good for a defensive Pokemon.
Countering though is a tad overrated which is why I still think Hippo is high B or maybeeee low A, more offensive teams don't necessarily need to counter threats they just need some bulk or speed to make sure they aren't swept by Pokemon X.
Also I haven't made up my mind I think this entire project is slightly ridiculous (but still quite helpful) and far too subjective to have any real definitive order, I suspect that if I hadn't read the hippo posts before me I would have put it lower than B+ but something like groupthink is getting to me.
while I don't think hippo sucks against stall because of WW interrupting protect (and hence wish moms recovery) I kinda do agree that it's not even A rank worthy.
to me, hippo is kind of a niche mon in the sense that I would pretty much only ever use it on teams that WANT the sand damage and ability to disrupt wish recovery AND need a sturdy SR setter. so pretty much sharpedo teams with suicide spikes lol.
as for forrey idk I don't like it at all and I never use stall cause I don't like playing without momentum so I can't really make a call on it.
to me, hippo is kind of a niche mon in the sense that I would pretty much only ever use it on teams that WANT the sand damage and ability to disrupt wish recovery AND need a sturdy SR setter. so pretty much sharpedo teams with suicide spikes lol.
as for forrey idk I don't like it at all and I never use stall cause I don't like playing without momentum so I can't really make a call on it.
Why are we judging Hippowdon (partially) by how it performs against stall teams? Yes they're common, but that's not its role at all. A wall shouldn't be expected to do great damage to stall, or be considered worse because it can't. Florges doesn't deter most stall Pokemon. Neither does Umbreon. These weren't factors in their rankings, though, and I think it's silly to consider it based on that.
To me, Hippowdon is probably about A, because it can check or counter a huge amount of threats. No, it doesn't wall CB Victini or SD Heracross. I don't think there are any Pokemon in UU that can do that without resisting their STABs. What Hippowdon can do, by virtue of its typing that leaves it with few common physical weaknesses, is counter every physical attacker up to a certain point of power.
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 172-204 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 173-204 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 184-217 (43.8 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 175-207 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
I acknowledge that Hippowdon can be worn down, and that once it is worn down a bit it can't counter any of these threats. However, even after it's worn down, it will check all of these, and anything weaker, and these aren't exactly weak physical attackers. And while of course it can be worn down, you guys make this sound like it's very easy to do, while in reality, Hippowdon's access to recovery and ability to come in on such a wide array of Pokemon means that it rarely switches out below 80% unless it took a hit while KOing something.
The Specially Defensive set is also very good and can serve an entirely different role, but I have less experience with that so I won't talk about it.
To me, Hippowdon is probably about A, because it can check or counter a huge amount of threats. No, it doesn't wall CB Victini or SD Heracross. I don't think there are any Pokemon in UU that can do that without resisting their STABs. What Hippowdon can do, by virtue of its typing that leaves it with few common physical weaknesses, is counter every physical attacker up to a certain point of power.
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 172-204 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 173-204 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 184-217 (43.8 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 175-207 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
I acknowledge that Hippowdon can be worn down, and that once it is worn down a bit it can't counter any of these threats. However, even after it's worn down, it will check all of these, and anything weaker, and these aren't exactly weak physical attackers. And while of course it can be worn down, you guys make this sound like it's very easy to do, while in reality, Hippowdon's access to recovery and ability to come in on such a wide array of Pokemon means that it rarely switches out below 80% unless it took a hit while KOing something.
The Specially Defensive set is also very good and can serve an entirely different role, but I have less experience with that so I won't talk about it.
Hippo can phaze. It's not set-up bait. Arguably only for a hazard setter, but it's not hard to spin/defog against a stall team. CM Slowbro and Stallbreaker Mew are the only stall staples that are really major threats against an opposing defensive team, but Stallbreaker Mew beats almost every defensive pokemon 1v1 and Slowbro can uses a lot of pokemon, even in A rank, as set-up fodder. These are both S-ranked pokemon anyway.
Hippowdon has 108/118/72 bulk. That is titanic defenses. Its physically bulkier than nearly all the good pokemon in UU, not to mention the entire game: only exceptions in UU being Tangrowth, Cresselia, Rhyperior, and Mega Aggron. And it's not too bad on the special side, either, plus 112 attack is absolutely excellent for a wall which is why Hippo is very good at handling many of the fire, electric and steel types in the tier, like Metagross, Darmanitan, Victini, Mega Man and Mega Sheep.
Going back to the wall of calcs posted by Meru earlier:
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 175-207 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 172-204 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 173-204 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 238-281 (56.6 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 169-199 (40.2 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
"Hippowdon should be A- because it can only just avoid 2HKOs from these super powerful attacks"; what sort of logic is this? What other Pokemon can boast beating Honchkrow, non-band Darmanitan, LO Regenerator Mienshao, non-CB Victini, non-band/SD/guts-activated Heracross, Metagross, Mega Aerodactyl, Snorlax, Jirachi, and tons of other common and A ranked threats with one EV spread and moveset? And "Heaven forbid if your opponent gets a crit or has one layer of Spikes up," what, a 6.25% chance of getting 50% more damage should be factored in when assessing how well something can wall other things? Damn, by this logic there are zero good tanks and there are no good counters for anything that hits hard. And Spikes suck but they're a problem for every defensive type, with only Regenerators not minding them too much.
And while a specially defensive spread means you're beaten by some strong physical attackers: well, if you're using a SpD spread, you're not intending for it to be able to handle those attackers. SpD Hippo is a very good counter to Mega Man, Mega Sheep, Raikou, most Hydreigon sets, and some Chandelure sets, and it can reliably check +0 Mega Doom and Nidoking.
Countering is overrated, what? If you're relying on checking, it means you're sacing stuff to stop a sweeper. This is absolutely unacceptable for a stall/defensive team, which is where Hippo performs best.
Anyway, to summarize; Hippowdon should go no lower than A rank, because:
-It can counter or check an enormous portion of the meta
-It avoids being set-up fodder with whirlwind and an above average offensive presence for a wall
-Succumbing to extremely powerful attacks, like CB Reckless Mienshao or CB V-Create, is not a strong argument for lowering it because other ranked, defensive pokemon, namely Florges and Umbreon, are equally susceptible to these powerful attacks.
-It has sneaky pebbles
I'd also like to hear more of the opinions of people who actually use defensive teams. Hippo is a stellar physical wall, and the arguments against it so far are from people who flat out admit they don't use defensive teams or are painfully obvious in that they don't use defensive teams. Sorry if I'm wrong, but I'm just not seeing strong arguments as to why Hippo isn't one of the best physical walls in the tier.
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Sergeant Spooky , I'm not really going to try to sway your opinion here, but more or less just explain my reasoning behind my thoughts on it as a Pokemon. When I think of sturdy Rocks setters, I think of Mega-Aggron, Mew, Nidoqueen, and your's truly, Hippowdon. Now, what do these have over Hippowdon? General lack of competition. Mega-Aggron is one of the best defensive Megas in the tier and can generally fare well against Crobat and Mega-Aerodactyl, two common Defog users, while crippling any Starmie lacking Natural Cure with paralysis to punish it for spinning. Mew needs no explanation while Nidoqueen is more of a bulky attacker capable of filling in as a Rocks setter without losing a ton on coverage. Hippowdon is a bulky Rocks user that also performs as a physical wall.
Now you argue that just because it can go down to CB Reckless Shao and CB Victini shouldn't be a big issue, but the argument is flawed as soon as you compare it to Umbreon and Florges, who are both special walls. They're not supposed to stand up to physical wallbreakers, not to mention both have Protect anyway to help you find a way in on these powerful wallbreakers (or even staying in if they overpredict) Now, Hippowdon is a physical wall. As a physical wall, I feel it's largely outclassed by Suicune and Slowbro, both of which can take on Victini and Mienshao (obviously, Bro does so much better, which is why it's S rank) better than Hippo can.
Hippo isn't terrible, but the metagame just isn't kind to it. Most Defog and Rapid Spin users fare quite well against it and Hippo has no real way to stop them from doing their job against it. Sure, it can phaze them out with WW, but they will have already cleared the field of entry hazards for their team and save for Mega Blaster, all have reliable recovery. Two of the top physical walls in the tier, Slowbro and Suicune, just have a better typing for a physical wall in the current metagame due to resisting Fire, one of the biggest physical offensive types in the tier. I feel it's A- rank mainly due to the fact it kinda gets outclassed as a general physical wall due to its typing not being as good in the meta as other physical walls and the fact that Mew, Queen, and even Mega-Aggron are generally easier to fit onto teams as they synergize better with the likes of Slowbro and Suicune. Much like with Forretress, I just feel Hippowdon is one of those Pokemon with a solid, proven track record that just sits in a metagame that isn't very kind to it. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. That's just how I see it and feel about it.
Now you argue that just because it can go down to CB Reckless Shao and CB Victini shouldn't be a big issue, but the argument is flawed as soon as you compare it to Umbreon and Florges, who are both special walls. They're not supposed to stand up to physical wallbreakers, not to mention both have Protect anyway to help you find a way in on these powerful wallbreakers (or even staying in if they overpredict) Now, Hippowdon is a physical wall. As a physical wall, I feel it's largely outclassed by Suicune and Slowbro, both of which can take on Victini and Mienshao (obviously, Bro does so much better, which is why it's S rank) better than Hippo can.
Hippo isn't terrible, but the metagame just isn't kind to it. Most Defog and Rapid Spin users fare quite well against it and Hippo has no real way to stop them from doing their job against it. Sure, it can phaze them out with WW, but they will have already cleared the field of entry hazards for their team and save for Mega Blaster, all have reliable recovery. Two of the top physical walls in the tier, Slowbro and Suicune, just have a better typing for a physical wall in the current metagame due to resisting Fire, one of the biggest physical offensive types in the tier. I feel it's A- rank mainly due to the fact it kinda gets outclassed as a general physical wall due to its typing not being as good in the meta as other physical walls and the fact that Mew, Queen, and even Mega-Aggron are generally easier to fit onto teams as they synergize better with the likes of Slowbro and Suicune. Much like with Forretress, I just feel Hippowdon is one of those Pokemon with a solid, proven track record that just sits in a metagame that isn't very kind to it. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. That's just how I see it and feel about it.
Hippo can take on electric types which Slowbro and Suicune (sans SpD boosts) can't. It doesn't resist fire but it has the raw bulk to tank all but the most powerful of fire-type attackers (LO/CB Victini and Darmanitan) and hit them hard with STAB Earthquake. It doesn't really have any resistances but neither does it have any weaknesses that can be exploited by physical attackers, meaning it fares better against things like Mega Absol, Honchkrow and Heracross.
Everything about how Hippo can't prevent Defoggers/spinner is irrelevant imo because setting rocks is more of an auxiliary function, and while it can't prevent defog/spin it at the very least has the bulk and recovery to set them up multiple times (Mega Aggron is bulky as hell but it doesn't have recovery, same with Nidoqueen.) It should be ranked for its ability as a physical/mixed wall, which is absolutely stellar and pretty much just Slowbro can handle as many threats as it can. Hippowdon can check or counter a good half of A rank by my count, depending on the set.
At any rate I'm not arguing for to be S-rank so I don't see the point in comparing it to an S-rank, especially when it is, in no way, eclipsed by it, as Slowbro lacks stealth rock, phazing, and is checked by powerful dark/bug/electric types. Hippowdon fits A rank fine.
Mostly an ou player here so sorry if I come off as stupid, but how is it that hippowdon, who is such a pivotal part of stall and walls a multitude of huge ou threats, not able to hold its own as well as suicune and slowbro, who are more niche in the higher tiers, in a higher tier? Sorry for not contributing much, but I'm really new to this meta.
Ground isn't as good a defensive type as water can be and both Suicune and Slowbro are awesome because they can spam scald and burns all day. Also Slowbro has Regenerator for an ability while Hippowdon either gives a sand team their bonuses or needs someone else to start a sand storm for Sand Force to be useful. He still does get some great support moves and has good attack but is just lacking compared to Slowbro.
Well welcome to UU!! The hipster tier we all love because OU is far too mainstream.
Maybe its because it is one of the few syall-viable mons in OU while stall is much more common in UU, and the best pokemon in UU stall are more easily defeated in OU.
Eon-X's post already gives an idea in that Hippo typing does not resist the most important offensive types in UU, namely fire, that leaves him vulnerable to being broken quite easily. Add that with the grass types commonly found in these lower tiers he is also more easily forced out and can lose his momentum.
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