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Gen 1 Yo, when did we change RBY tiers?

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Mr.E, Apr 20, 2012.

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  1. Crystal_

    Crystal_
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    Cloyster's usage in SPL proves he deserves a place in OU.

    Cloyster explodes, something Lapras can't do. And Explosion is a great move, even a bigger advantage than Clamp overall. I am not saying Cloy's better than Lapras though, in case anyone thought so.

    Of course, Closyer is not sweeping with Clamp as Dragonite is with Wrap. First, Cloyster is never sweeping if there is an unparalyzed Starmie/Alakazam switching into you everytime, and has problems against Chansey and Lapras as well. And with the low PP, the opponent can also play around clamp cloy with swictches. Overall, I find Clamp's ability to force plays I can capitalize on to be more useful, and Clamp can help wearing down things, although Cloyster also has the potential to sweep in some scenarios.

    Rest in Cloyster is ueful for one thing and just one thing: walling Snorlax, the second biggest threat in RBY. The problem comes when your opponent predicts you and capitalizes with Tauros. But if Tauros switches in in the next turn you wake up, it is a good position for Cloy since it can wake up at +75% health. Although another problem when using Rest are electric-types if you dont have Golem/Rhydon to wall them.

    Zapdos is imo significantly better than Jolteon. Jolteon's higher speed may make switching out against him more difficult when your mons are weakened and can outspeed Tauros/Zam/Starmie, but overall it's imo not generally very difficult to play around it with any combination of paralysis/EQ/Exeggutor/Alakazam/Chansey and some switches.

    That alone is still not that bad.
  2. 133tSneasel

    133tSneasel

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    It doesn't normally have Growl, it's just a suggestion in moveset. But if we are not talking about one on one situations. The standard has Bolt/Beam/CRay/BSlam, right?

    I'm just saying that Growl can lower Explosions power. or Growl can lower Hyper Beams power. I'm not saying it's the best counter. I'm just saying it's can be done.
  3. Crystal_

    Crystal_
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    The only gen where Growl doesn't suck is GSC. And if there is one Pokemon that ever might find Growl useful in RBY, that's not Lapras for sure.
  4. Omanyte

    Omanyte

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    Chansey Growl could work. Then again Reflect does the job better generally.
    And standard Lapras is: Blizzard/TBolt/B-Slam/CRay, although I think Sing is at least as good as CRay.
    Well there's plenty of pokemon with Reflect that can use it (Hypno and Snorlax are probably most popular). Rest Cloyster works reasonably well as long as you have something that can absorb the incoming Thunderbolts. It also makes the Explosion less predictable. Oh, and can still easily come in on Blizzards when asleep, which can come in handy too.
  5. Clefairy{m}

    Clefairy{m}

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    When are you guys going to hurry up and ban Rhydon and Golem? They obviously centralize the metagame. Soo many pokemon are worth using but get shut down because of those Ground/Rock pokes.

    I actually think RBY is the most balanced gen out of all 5, if they were removed.

    Please don't respond with "hahah this guy can't beat Rhydon and Golem haha." As that isn't the case.
  6. Perfect Cell

    Perfect Cell

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    Well, they are 4x weak to some common types. But I do see your point, they can very annoying.
  7. Clefairy{m}

    Clefairy{m}

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    Teams tend to have 1 water attack. Either Starmie or Slowbro. And even then Standard Starmie carries Blizzard over Surf.

    But the point I was making isn't that Rhydon and Golem are hard to kill by other OU pokes. It's the fact they shut down soo many UU pokes. Which in turn "centralizes" the RBY metagame. Their like the "Skarmory Of Rby".

    If Golem and Rhydon was banned I don't think most people will miss them much. Especially as it'll allow a larger pool of pokemon to be viable.
  8. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    That's not quite how bans work. If you want to use UU Pokemon, play UU.
  9. Clefairy{m}

    Clefairy{m}

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    Maybe it's time for change? Rby has been held back for way to long, needs a shake up.
    A revamp.

    I don't think Rby needs separate tier lists. If those two pokes where gone maybe 80% of fully evolved pokes would be OU viable. To me anyway.
  10. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    "Held back" by what, exactly? RBY's OU tier is plenty balanced enough. A tier only needs to be balanced to the point of being reasonably competitive and skill-based (and, of course, simply "fun"). Any other bans are unnecessary disturbances of stability, and should just be used as gimmicks or for establishing a whole new tier of play.

    If RBY does need a shake-up, it's through banning the Normals more than through anything else. The Rocks don't really dictate anything about the metagame, except by strengthening Eggy (who's godlike even without the Rocks) to nigh-mandatory status. Most of the time, rocks are used in reaction to other major players, most notably Snorlax and Zapdos.
  11. Clefairy{m}

    Clefairy{m}

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    You make good points. Very solid. Which I think would hold true for recent Gens. But Rby is the original, and sadly isn't fun any more.

    There's a good amount of UU pokes that counter wrap also. I would love to see more Jolteons, more Zapdos, Arcanines, more Charizard.

    I guess I'll just keep using my Wrap team abusing people who rely on Slow pokes. Slowbro, Rhydon, Golem, Snorlax, Exeggutor, lapras, Chansey, Hypno.

    I die inside when I encounter teams slower than both my wrappers.

    Even when Wrap was banned, the Rby scene was still stale.
  12. evan

    evan I did my best -- I have no regrets
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    Rhydon/Golem are plenty easy to play around saying this as someone who thinks Zapdos is the (second) best RBY mon. There is absolutely no reason to think about banning them.
  13. Destiny Warrior

    Destiny Warrior also known as Darkwing_Duck
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    We don't unban Pokemon in order to make other Pokemon viable. We ban things that break the metagame(Mewtwo and Mew). Rhydon and Golem in no way break the metagame, and hence shouldn't be banned.

    RBY is what, 16 years old? Of course it'll be stale. Gimmicks like banning Rhydon/Golem to make the metagame more "versatile" aren't received well by the larger competitive community(who the rules cater to), especially when people have been playing with a standard for all these years.
  14. Clefairy{m}

    Clefairy{m}

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    I dunno about that Zapdos statement. Even if you predict a Rhydon switch in and catch it with Chanseys Blizzard for example. Even with Rhydon at Around 30% Zapdos is still stopped cold.

    If I were to run Zapdos it'll probably only be if I knew who I was battling. Like in a tournament and I knew that opponent didn't run Rhydon or Golem.


    Destiny warrior I like that explanation. I guess I remember Jumpman saying once that Garchomp centralized the metagame and thus deserved to be banned.

    Was hoping the same logic could be added to this situation also. As I agree with his thought process.
  15. Conflict

    Conflict And who are you, the proud lord said That I must bow so low?
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    clefairy{m} one of the most respected rby players has spoken - we better agree with him.

    Man these rockmons definitely centralize the metagame way more than Tauros, Eggy, Chansey, Snorlax and Zapdos do. I mean even Chansey and Tauros loses to them if they explode on her if they have more than 60% HP.


    Regarding the topic: Cloyster is good if wrap is allowed otherwise he just doesnt cut it imo. I have seen quite a few Cloysters using Rest in SPL and thats nice and dandy because Cloy can now restloop Snorlax (and Tauros without CH's) but i dont see it as particularly effective because 1) your opponent can abuse these Rest-turns and 2) even Snorlax is bound to crit sometime and then thats it for poor Cloyster.
    But Gengar, Jolteon (and Perisan) are definitely up to par with Cloyster they just require the right team + play to be effective as does Cloyster.
  16. Yai-Inn

    Yai-Inn

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    I would love to hear more about how you think 80% would be viable, feel free to pm if you'd like.

    I feel like I'm missing something on the Cloyster Rest discussion. Doesn't Cloyster effectively "wall" anything slower than it with Clamp trap. What's the use of Rest exactly?
  17. Clefairy{m}

    Clefairy{m}

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    Was that really needed? If you really want to get into it, I was most likely playing RBY competitively before you even knew about online pokemon. But that's not the point.

    Yeah they do actually. The pokemon you mention wouldn't stop me using most of the UU pokes on smogons UU List. I'd actually use a full team of UU if Golem/Rhydon were banned.
  18. Clefairy{m}

    Clefairy{m}

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    Well I just had another look at the UU tier. And I count only 16 pokes that I wouldn't use from the 63 in the list.
    I don't mean to cause any conflict. It was just an opinion and previous posters have explain why banning them isn't viable.
  19. Crystal_

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    Man, if you'd like to use Fire-types, better suggest banning Starmie, Chansey and Alakazam instead.

    Look, Rhydon/Golem wall Zapdos and Jolteon. And Dodrio. They are the reason why some Snorlaxes carry Surf as well. That's about them.
    Chansey can wall Starmie, Lapras, Alakazam, Exeggutor, Jynx, Gengar, Cloyster, Articuno etc, as well as a lot of underused mons. Lets ban Chansey then? No, that'd just be stupid.

    Anyway, what you said is not true. Rhydon/Golem are not the mons that make the UUs less viable. In fact, they are good matchups for a lot of UUs such as Razor Leafers, Gyarados, Kingler, Tangela, Poliwrath, Machamp etc. Well, maybe you were talking about Magneton/Electrode but I don't think so. In any case, Rhydon/Golem are not the problem. It's not just one, two or three top Pokemon, UUs are worse because there are 15-25 mons clearly better than them.

    Jorgen said it before, if you want to play with UUs, play UU (although, on the other hand, nobody plays RBY UU nowadays). Bans have probably gone too far in new gens. Just because one Pokemon is more impactful than the others, it doesn't automatically mean that banning it will be good for the metagame, or necessary for that matter.


    Regarding Cloy, restlooping an unparalyzed Snorlax, albeit possible, is very risky because a FP in the turn you wake up or a CH will let Snorlax KO you. If lax's paralyzed it becomes a lot more reliable because even if Slam paras cloy, you are still faster, and of course, the chances of FP could let you wake up at good health sometimes or negate a CH in the same restloop. However, Cloyster completely needs Tauros to be paralyzed to stand a chance if Cloy rests. Even if it takes some turns for Tauros to score a CH, it will end up coming and Cloy wouldn't be able to do anything since it has to Rest the same turn it wakes up, until CH happens. Tauros is the main reson why Rest isn't generally a useful/reliable move in RBY.
  20. Clefairy{m}

    Clefairy{m}

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    Are you serious? How do Fire types not beat Starmie, Chansey? "Alakazam.. seriously"? not sure if serious.

    Fire types only loose to Starmie if it carries Surf. And even then Fire types have a chance at beating Starmie. Where as with Rhydon they can't do nothing.

    Why are we talking about Snorlax? Chansey is a good option against special attackers but it doesn't stop them cold.

    And the fact that you think Lapras is walled by Chansey is unbelievable. You do realise the main reason Lapras is used over Starmie and Slowbro is because Chansey has difficulty against it?
  21. Conflict

    Conflict And who are you, the proud lord said That I must bow so low?
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    Uh you know Crystal is like one of the best RBY players around maybe you should trust his word?

    Well in case you dont let me break something down for you: Firetypes cant get past Starmie for several reasons. First off they cant hit Starmie SE in most cases so they have to rely on Body Slam, D-Edge or HBeam to deal SOME damage to Starmie. Secondly Starmie has recovery which fire-types dont have (bar Rest which sucks) so it should win in the long run bar crazy paralysis hax. Some Starmie carry Surf or Psychic by the way which makes it really easy to defeat fire-mons.
    Same goes for Alakazam who has better Special but no resistance but i guess you can figure out on your own how he would fare.

    And yes Chansey walls Lapras because Lapras can only deal around ~25% damage per turn and Chanseys Tbolt 3hkoes. Not to mention that Chansey has Recovery and Lapras doesnt. What makes Lapras able to get by Chansey are FP's (+confuse ray) or Sing - both isnt reliable but Lapras has at least a method to hurt Chansey unlike Starmie. In the same vein Chansesy walls most Fire-pokes if they dont use Submission which still doesnt guarantee a win vs her.

    So did that bring the point accross?
  22. evan

    evan I did my best -- I have no regrets
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    Fire-Types also handle Golem/Rhydon a lot better than Zapdos/Jolteon. Even though they resist, too many switchins to Fire Blast risks burning and effectively neutralising Golem/Rhydon's offense. That plus the residual burn damage helps wear them down over time.

    Obviously not ideal, but.
  23. Clefairy{m}

    Clefairy{m}

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    "Wall" is a very strong word Conflict. Especially in RBY.

    Everyone of you guys speak truth and sense to some agree. But you can't compare how Rhydon stops alot of pokemon cold, to how Chansey is used to absorb special attacks.

    I don't get why you trying so hard to make out Chansey is a solid counter against Lapras?
    Conflict. Are you honestly saying if you had a paralyzed Chansey you'd leave it in against Lapras? Personally I'd only try to get a Thunder wave off and that's it, if I was really desperate.

    So Thunderbolt 3ohko's Lapras but in turn Chansey is 4ohkoed by Lapras. And you consider that a wall? Do you realise how silly that sounds?


    Evan Yeah Rhydon may get burnt. I don't think I've ever burnt anyone in the history of RBY =/. Yet Body Slam seems to Para 70% of the time lolz.


    I'm not upset that Rhydon/Golem isn't going to be banned. But please guys don't make out that these other pokes are Gods.
    Honestly Alakazam? That Fragile peace of ****.
  24. Crystal_

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    @Clefairy{m}: Your post was hilarious. You have no idea of what you are talking about yet you act as if you did.

    "Walling" is a tricky word in RBY. My bad for using this word regarding Chansey before. (although I said "CAN wall" for that reason). In RBY it's difficult to find "hard wall" macthups unlike in GSC. Zapdos vs Golem/Rhydon is an exception though, now that we are talking about them. Starmie doesn't hard wall Fire-types; a para in the switch-in followed by consecutive CHs and/or FPs might let the fire-type win. And against Chansey/Alakazam it's a similar thing although they may be able to get away with a CH/FP less.

    Rhydon/Golem are great counters. Sure. But not better than the recoverers. Fire Blast does +25%, +50% with a CH, plus the 30% chance of burning, which will make them pretty worthless. 30% is also Body Slam's para chance btw, and there is no way fire-types are getting past Starm/Chan/Zam without paralysis. But you are right, banning Golem/Rhydon will help fire-types, but honestly, take out any other OU that's not Egg/Jynx and they suddenly become better too.

    The whole point of mentioning Lax was explaining Golem/Rhydon's impact on the meta to determine if they should be banned. I don't get it. Mentioning Snorlax could only be supporting your opinion.

    I do, well, at least if you exclude Slowbro, because that part is wrong. Anyway, used the word "wall" wrong. My bad and only my bad. However, this:

    And Chansey Twaves as well. Although Lapras can also HBeam

    Chansey is the best Lapras CHECK.
  25. Clefairy{m}

    Clefairy{m}

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    Ouch low blow. You getting upset because someone is challenging your view?

    "No pokes are getting past Starm/Chan/Zam without paralysis". Lolz, don't twist my words I never said that. The whole of RBY revolves around Paralyzes.
    Lets face it though, I'm not saying that someone is going to repeatedly throw Rhydon into Fire Blasts. However when Rhydon does come in it not only counters The Fire type but can also earthquake it for the kill.

    The Difference with Chansey and others is, when they counter a pokemon its either a 3-4 turn ohko. Without Rhydon/Golem UU pokes get a fighting chance.

    And lets get away from just mentioning Fire types. You and I both know there's alot of good pokes that are disregarded due to those Rock Types.


    The reason why I don't agree with you mentioning Snorlax, is because I'm not arguing how Rhydon/Golem impact the pokes that are currently in the OU metagame.
    I'm arguing that "RBY as Whole" would be alot more balanced without them in it at all. Do you get that Crystal?
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