Media Yu-Gi-Oh discussion

[Forte.EXE]

Tribute two monsters, then whatever I destroy with it is Banished (which in and of itself is pretty good). But I can also grab One for One, Heavy Storm, Mystical Space Typhoon, Dark Hole, Pot of Duality, Book of Moon, or Mind Control. Pretty much all of those cards can give you a moderately large advantage. I like dealing with most of those cards once in a match and never having to worry about them again coming back and biting me in the ass.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Yes, but you have to realize that you would need to have tribute fodder for DMoC and have a spell in the grave for it to retrieve, which is situational. I suppose it could be useful in a deck that provides reliable tribute fodder, like Frognarchs, but at that point, I would rather use something like Light and Darkness Dragon.

DMoC's effect that banishes anything it destroys has a relatively balanced countereffect. If it is removed from the field in any way (including spinning it with Raiza or bouncing it with Compulsory Evacuation Device), it is removed from play. It's far less disruptive as a monster than BLS or even Dark Armed Dragon.

 

[Cshadow]

DMoC can only be used by Frogs, really (because of the two-tribute thing). In a format without the broken spell staples (Monster Reborn, Heavy Storm, Mind Control) DMoC won't have any broken targets. Being a mini D-Fissure is nothing in a game where the Banished Zone is just as accessible as the Graveyard. There is also no reliable way to retrieve it from the banished zone unless you use Different Dimension Reincarnation.

I don't see why he can't come back.

EDIT: Also, Agents can first turn Trishula against opposing players, so I don't think they have "no defense against hornet". Hyperion also loves a graveyard filled with fairys.

EDIT2: Lol Sinister Serpent is doing shit at 1. Now when it's at 3 we can say that it's busted. Too susceptible to common removal and it's not like you can use a deck revolved around costless discards with it at 1.

 

[Forte.EXE]

EDIT: Also, Agents can first turn Trishula against opposing players, so I don't think they have "no defense against hornet". Hyperion also loves a graveyard filled with fairys.

You do realize that all of the Inzektors are Level 3, right? Level 3 as in Leviair, so who cares about being Banished? If anything, you're setting yourself up to be screwed by an even larger play by Banishing. Second, if they're getting a first turn Trishula, they won't be able to remove Hornet easily because it would have a.) be in the hand, and b.) they would have to magically pick it. Not good odds.

EDIT2: Lol Sinister Serpent is doing shit at 1. Now when it's at 3 we can say that it's busted. Too susceptible to common removal and it's not like you can use a deck revolved around costless discards with it at 1.

Oh shit, common removal. Following the logic that, hey you CAN stop it and at 1 it doesn't do shit, let's bring back Fishborg Blaster and all monsters that are Forbidden because hey, you could just run Bottomless Trap Hole and other monster removal.

Costless discards, at 1 or not, is retarded.

 

[Cshadow]

You caught me with the first one. I meant to say "Agents can sync into Trishula very easily" but you're still correct regardless.

Second one I still disagree. Sinister Serpent is literally doing nothing at one. You have no ways to add it to your hand outside of Foolish Burial and Sangan (who should be gone with Tour Guide at three, but that's more of a personal opinion). You can't even revolve your deck around abusing Sinister Serpent because he's at one (which means you can't add in a billion costless discard cards because you depend on Serpent to make them 'costless'). Not to mention, what can be abused, exactly? A Feather of the Phoenix is like, the only good one.

The only way he could ever be a real issue is at 2 or 3.

 

[Glen]

ok stop, sinister is beyond broken, none of you people have any idea what the fuck you're talking about

 

[Glen]

im not searching anymore because i refuse to spend that much time explaining why sinister is not conducive to a good metagame, come on man

 

[Cshadow]

Why use Sinister Serpent and Pheonix Wing Wind Blast when you can use Treeborn Frog and Raiza the Storm Monarch and have a 2400 beater on the field, too?

Treeborn Frog is at 3 and is better than Serpent at one.

Offering to the Snake Diety is probably better used on another, stronger reptile monster that you can Synchro with later (use Alien Ammonite to get it) or summon Chaos Monster (with Dark/Light Attribute tribute).

Seriously why discard Sinister Serpent in a game where the Graveyard/Banished Zone is everything when you can put in a much more useful monster in it's place.

I'm serious in asking what 1 Sinister Serpent enables to be useful that isn't done better by something else/using something else in it's place that isn't limited or cause you to place cards in your deck dependent on it and only it.

EDIT:
The only deck that comes to mind that would REALLY LOVE Sinister Serpent to come back at 1 would be decks that use Dragon Ravine. Maybe. It depends on their graveyard and hand at the time of using it.

 

[Glen]

Why use Sinister Serpent and Pheonix Wing Wind Blast when you can use Treeborn Frog and Raiza the Storm Monarch and have a 2400 beater on the field, too?

Treeborn Frog is at 3 and is better than Serpent at one.

Offering to the Snake Diety is probably better used on another, stronger reptile monster that you can Synchro with later (use Alien Ammonite to get it) or summon Chaos Monster (with Dark/Light Attribute tribute).

Seriously why discard Sinister Serpent in a game where the Graveyard/Banished Zone is everything when you can put in a much more useful monster in it's place.

I'm serious in asking what 1 Sinister Serpent enables to be useful that isn't done better by something else/using something else in it's place.

sinister is a better card than treeborn because it has no stipulations. if it is in your graveyard, you get it, regardless of game state. treeborn/raiza also takes your summon for the turn.

you have no idea how to play competitive yugioh if you're suggesting that offerings to the snake deity is better used on a fucking alien ammonite than on a monster that gets added to your hand for free every turn

wind blast is a fantastic card that stymies a lot of plays. if someone rabbits for double dino, wind blasting the other kabazauls to the top of the deck is bar none the best one-card response (one-card because sinister is free).
i am not trying to argue that sinister is the most broken thing ever or even that it's more broken than some existing cards/combos but it was created like 8 or 9 years ago when the game was simpler. it's like cold wave in that respect, back then the ramifications for such power were less dire. sinister is nowhere near healthy for the game. you are not making good arguments in favor of it.

treeborn frog is not better than sinister and as loath as i am to say shit like this it really comes down to 'either you get it or you dont'. sinister goes in every deck, frog goes in one.

 

[Glen]

sorry, i dont mean to be such a dick. baddies on dueling network and silly theoryoh in this thread are just reminding me of why i stopped playing.

 

[Cshadow]

sinister is a better card than treeborn because it has no stipulations. if it is in your graveyard, you get it, regardless of game state. treeborn/raiza also takes your summon for the turn.

Treeborn basically is the same way (except when cards that prevent special summonings are on the field - but the only two that really do this that come to mind are Krystia and Vanity's Fiend, and they aren't used outside of two decks at the moment iirc). If it is in your graveyard, you get to Special Summon it and bring out a 2400 beater with a nasty effect for what is essentially free (well, at the cost of your normal summon - as you mentioned). Not that wasting your normal summon to get a 2400 beater with a nasty effect for free is a bad thing. Sounds like a good thing.

Treeborn is at 3 and has many reliable ways of getting into the graveyard. Sinister Serpent is at one (what I'm arguing for) and is dependent on cards that are dead draws until you draw them. These are the cards that will let you get it into your graveyard, then to your hand, unless you plan on wasting your normal summon to stall. Filling your deck with a bunch of discard cost cards for a card that can't be fetched reliably is inconsistent and a bad idea.

you have no idea how to play competitive yugioh if you're suggesting that offerings to the snake deity is better used on a fucking alien ammonite than on a monster that gets added to your hand for free every turn

This is my mistake - I was trying to say that Offering to the Snake Diety is better used on a monster that can later be revived by Alien Ammonite for a Synchro summon.

My example isn't the best though, you're right. But I'm sure decks like Worms or Evol will find Offering to the Snake Deity just as usable with or without Sinister Serpent.

wind blast is a fantastic card that stymies a lot of plays. if someone rabbits for double dino, wind blasting the other kabazauls to the top of the deck is bar none the best one-card response (one-card because sinister is free).

Why not use Compulsory Evacuation Device instead? Sure it doesn't go to the top of the deck - but it can still be used on your opponents turn and does not require a discard cost (or in this case, Sinister Serpent).

i am not trying to argue that sinister is the most broken thing ever or even that it's more broken than some existing cards/combos but it was created like 8 or 9 years ago when the game was simpler. it's like cold wave in that respect, back then the ramifications for such power were less dire. sinister is nowhere near healthy for the game. you are not making good arguments in favor of it.

I know you're not - and you're entitled to your opinion. To be fair, from my perspective you're not really giving me anything game breaking that Serpent can do. I mean, you're two examples require that I use cards that are specifically meant to pitch Serpent and Serpent only to stunt the opponents plays, but there are probably better options or other cards that work just as well (for all intents and purposes).

treeborn frog is not better than sinister and as loath as i am to say shit like this it really comes down to 'either you get it or you dont'. sinister goes in every deck, frog goes in one.

I compared Treeborn to Sinister Serpent in that it's a free ____ card. I find Treeborn better because it's a free monster every turn with a nasty effect that hurts the opponent. Frog is also easier and more consistent to use because I can get it reliably into the graveyard turn one and onto the field every subsequent turn after that, ready to be used to get a free monster on the field.

Sinister Serpent is almost the same thing, but it has no good targets. Phoenix Wing Wind Blast isn't anything special (as an example) and a lot of other cards do very similar things for all intents and purposes: fucking up your opponents play.

I know you probably meant it as a hyperbole, but Sinister would not be used in every deck. Glads, Wind-Ups, Evols, Ninjas, Kaukuri, Heroes, Malefic Skill Drain, Dark World, T.G., Agents (to name a few) already operate wonderfully and without the need of Sinister Serpent, and would probably pass him up in favor of a better tech or staple hand trap like Veiler or Maxx "C".

I'm not trying to imply that Sinister Serpent needs to come back at full force of 3, I'm arguing for it to come back at one for testing purposes. I'm having trouble seeing why EVERY DECK would use a card that turns all other cards you draw that rely on it into dead draws with no reliable way to search it.

It might give Reptile Decks a boost (maybe?) since Snake Rain can dump it into the graveyard very easily.

Sinister Serpent (at more than one) will find use in decks that rely on pitching cards from the hand to the graveyard, but at only one it would be really, really useless (from what I can see). I might be wrong, I dunno!

sorry, i dont mean to be such a dick. baddies on dueling network and silly theoryoh in this thread are just reminding me of why i stopped playing.

It's no big deal.

EDIT: Actually there is one deck I can see it being used in. Dragunity/Dragon Ravine decks.
EDIT2: One thing I don't think I mentioned was that why you would pitch Sinister Serpent to your graveyard when using a card that discards as a cost, when you could pitch something that could be useful later. I know the costless discard is nice, but filling your grave with useful things is better imo.

 

[Yuki [old]]

no reliable way to search it.

One-for-one (notably you can discard him from for it -or- use it to search him from the deck)
Sangan
Foolish Burial
Oshaleon (running this would also make offering live more often)
Skreech (ditto above)
Mother Grizzly (this is where we start to get into more gimmicky territory but it's still worth noting)

and then of course there's always a chance he'll show up via Pot of Duality

 

[Cshadow]

One-for-one (notably you can discard him from for it -or- use it to search him from the deck)
Sangan
Foolish Burial
Oshaleon (running this would also make offering live more often)
Skreech (ditto above)
Mother Grizzly (this is where we start to get into more gimmicky territory but it's still worth noting)

and then of course there's always a chance he'll show up via Pot of Duality

3 of those cards are limited to one (but one of them might as well be at 3 with Tour Guide running about).

Oshaleon and Skreech sound like they belong in reptile decks, meaning they aren't very easily splashed in other decks. Reptiles could use the support though.

EDIT: Even then they aren't super reliable in a format full of one-for-one destruction/banishment.

Mother Grizzly sucks haha, but you've already noted that~

Duality, yeah, I forgot about the generic draw card for a moment~

 

[Glen]

Treeborn is the same way. If it is in your graveyard, you get to Special Summon it and bring out a 2400 beater with a nasty effect for what is essentially free (well, at the cost of your normal summon - as you mentioned). Not that wasting your normal summon to get a 2400 beater with a nasty effect for free is a bad thing. Sounds like a good thing.

treeborn is not the same way. you don't need to have an empty backrow to add sinister to hand. the 'combo' you are suggesting is a deck, it's called frog monarch. i've played hundreds of matches with it and against it. i know what it does.

Treeborn is at 3 and has many reliable ways of getting into the graveyard. Sinister Serpent is at one (what I'm arguing for) and is dependent on cards that are dead draws until you draw them. These are the cards that will let you get it into your graveyard, then to your hand, unless you plan on wasting your normal summon to stall. Filling your deck with a bunch of discard cost cards for a card that can't be fetched reliably is inconsistent and a bad idea.

treeborn being at 3 is largely irrelevant, you shouldnt be siding in crows for frog monarch anyway and you can only use one treeborn at any given time (maybe you already know this but since you didnt seem to understand the no backrow thing maybe you dont). i know you're arguing for sinister at 1, arguing for it at 2 or 3 is so far beyond the realm of the retarded that i would not even bother arguing with you.

treeborn gets into the grave incredibly easily too. genex undine is a ridiculous card. it's a better card than swap frog.

'dependent on cards that are dead draws until you draw them' doesnt make any sense. do you mean theyre dead draws until you draw sinister? phoenix wing is a playable card in and of itself. i will agree that offerings to the snake deity is gimmicky. i'm not advocating filling your deck with cards like lightning vortex and hoping to draw sinister. what i'm saying is that a card that goes back to hand from grave every turn with absolutely zero stipulations is bad for the game.

My example isn't the best though, you're right. But I'm sure decks like Worms or Evol will find Offering to the Snake Deity just as usable with or without Sinister Serpent.

this is not something that helps your argument. why should i respond to this?

Why not use Compulsory Evacuation Device instead? Sure it doesn't go to the top of the deck - but it can still be used on your opponents turn and does not require a discard cost (or in this case, Sinister Serpent).

you answered your own question. it doesn't go to the top of the deck. i am explaining to you why cost-free wind blasts are bad for the game. they were built with a cost in mind. removing that cost upsets it.

I know you're not - and you're entitled to your opinion. To be fair, from my perspective you're not really giving me anything game breaking that Serpent can do. I mean, you're two examples require that I use cards that are specifically meant to pitch Serpent and Serpent only to stunt the opponents plays, but there are probably better options or other cards that work just as well (for all intents and purposes).

there probably are better options, but that in no way makes sinister good for the game. the power creep in yugioh is absurd; inzektors and windups are more ridiculous than serpent. bringing serpent back will not help anything, though. it is a poorly designed card.

I compared Treeborn to Sinister Serpent in that it's a free ____ card. I find Treeborn better because it's a free monster every turn with a nasty effect that hurts the opponent. Frog is also easier and more consistent to use because I can get it reliably into the graveyard turn one and onto the field every subsequent turn after that, ready to be used to get a free monster on the field.

again, treeborn requires a specific decktype to be utilized effectively. you cannot have backrows. sinister has no issues like that. it is myopic to think that t1 swap for treeborn t2-t5 summon monarch is more dangerous for the game than something like sinister. and again, if you want consistent sinister, run undine engine.

Sinister Serpent is almost the same thing, but it has no good targets. Phoenix Wing Wind Blast isn't anything special (as an example) and a lot of other cards do very similar things for all intents and purposes: fucking up your opponents play.

i can't help but feel that a lot of what i'm saying is simply falling on deaf ears. i'm assuming you haven't been playing this game competitively for very long (or competitively at all since youre mentioning aliens) because you don't seem to understand what is good for the game and what isn't.

I know you probably meant it as a hyperbole, but Sinister would not be used in every deck. Glads, Wind-Ups, Evols, Ninjas, Kaukuri, Heroes, Malefic Skill Drain, Dark World, T.G., Agents (to name a few) already operate wonderfully and without the need of Sinister Serpent, and would probably pass him up in favor of a better tech or staple hand trap like Veiler or Maxx "C".

yeah i shouldn't have exaggerated, there are a lot of decks that dont want sinister. the problem i have with sinister is that even though im mentioning card combos, its broken because its not even a combo card. there are so few cards in the game that do what theyre supposed to do by themselves and dont need any outside help.

sinister will always do what it's supposed to do every turn of every game. granted, bringing sinister back wouldn't break the game. it probably wouldn't even make it noticeably more imbalanced. but if you don't see how a card that always does its job (assuming said job is useful, which it is) with no outside help is problematic, then i dont know what to tell you. bls doesnt break the game either, but its not exactly conducive to a reasonable dueling environment.

EDIT: Actually there is one deck I can see it being used in. Dragunity/Dragon Ravine decks.
EDIT2: One thing I don't think I mentioned was that why you would pitch Sinister Serpent to your graveyard when using a card that discards as a cost, when you could pitch something that could be useful later. I know the costless discard is nice, but filling your grave with useful things is better imo.

this argument doesnt hold water because it existed at the same time sinister was unbanned. why fill your grave with sinister when you can fill your grave with goodies? hint: because sinister is a goodie.

 

[lmitchell0012]

I don't really play Yu Gi Oh anymore, but I remember some of the cards my friends and brothers used against me that i found very annoying.

In terms of older cards, I find jinzo to be EXTREMELY cheap. You only need to sacrifice one monster to get him up and all you need is a trap card that blocks damage (negate attack, mirror force, magic cylinder, etc) for one turn. And 2400 isn't bad at all for a 6 star monster.

Also, I'll probably hear less about this but I find ground collapse to be a pretty cheap card as well. For those of you who don't know, what it does is it prevents two monster zones on the field (that don't already have monsters) from being occupied. If I remember correctly there are only 5 monster zones on each side. You could easily prevent your opponent from having any monsters at all.

Oh, and I don't really find him cheap but Great Maju Garzett is AWESOME!!!

 

[Z-rex]

sinister serpent is broken , why would you even want to unban it , a free + 1 every turn , costless discard .. it's not good for the game , not one bit , and it won't leave the banned list anyway so speculations are useless .

 

[Cshadow]

treeborn is not the same way. you don't need to have an empty backrow to add sinister to hand. the 'combo' you are suggesting is a deck, it's called frog monarch. i've played hundreds of matches with it and against it. i know what it does.

I'm comparing Sinister Serpent and Treeborn Frog because of what they achieve/enable. In decks that look to utilize either, the conditions for abusing them will be there, so the minor stipulations they have in the means by which you abuse them is irrelevant because that's not the point I'm trying to make.

Treeborn Frog and Sinister Serpent are both a card that enables something else to be costless. Treeborn Frog allows one free 2400 (roughly, depends on the monster) monster with a nasty effect per turn. Sinister Serpent will allow one free discard per turn.

Both of these monsters are only as good as the cards that abuse them. I don't feel Sinister Serpent has many of those in comparison to Treeborn Frog, who can drop shit like Vanity's Fiend.


treeborn gets into the grave incredibly easily too. genex undine is a ridiculous card. it's a better card than swap frog.

(Did you mean to say Sinister Serpent? If you meant Serpent in the comparison, Frog can't dump him because he's not Aqua-type. But I'll assume you meant Frog.)

How is Genex Undine better than Swap Frog? Genex Undine forces you to run Genex Controller and only works if you Normal Summon it.

Swap Frog can pitch a dead card, special summon itself, and send a card to the graveyard without wasting the normal summon - and it isn't forced to run a crappy level 3 normal tuner.

'dependent on cards that are dead draws until you draw them' doesnt make any sense. do you mean theyre dead draws until you draw sinister? phoenix wing is a playable card in and of itself. i will agree that offerings to the snake deity is gimmicky. i'm not advocating filling your deck with cards like lightning vortex and hoping to draw sinister. what i'm saying is that a card that goes back to hand from grave every turn with absolutely zero stipulations is bad for the game.

Sorry! It was late when I was typing up these responses. I hope they're easier to understand thus far. I meant to say they're dead draws until you draw Sinister Serpent, yeah. Phoenix Wing is a playable card, but it's not run because you need to discard to use it. If you're looking for ways to dump cards in your graveyard, there are other, better means of accomplishing that. Running Sinister Serpent just because you can use a card that requires a discard for a cost when you can easily substitute it with something that does (basically) the same thing is not worth it.

As for the underlined, I would agree with this if it were a better card, but it's not. It's just not that great. Yeah, it's a costless discard, but how many decks would run it? Only the ones that desperately need the help or can properly take advantage of it. At the moment, from what I understand, that's like, 3 (Dragunity/Dragon Ravine, Genex, and Reptiles) all of which are mediocre/terrible, and would only become marginally better. Maybe.

you answered your own question. it doesn't go to the top of the deck. i am explaining to you why cost-free wind blasts are bad for the game. they were built with a cost in mind. removing that cost upsets it.

The effect of making it go to the top of the deck is not a reasonable excuse to run Sinister Serpent + that card over something that's more splashable, like Compulsory Evacuation Device, which doesn't compromise synergy or deck space.

there probably are better options, but that in no way makes sinister good for the game. the power creep in yugioh is absurd; inzektors and windups are more ridiculous than serpent. bringing serpent back will not help anything, though. it is a poorly designed card.

What will Sinister Serpent hurt? What decks can properly utilize one Sinister Serpent? What will Sinister Serpent break?

again, treeborn requires a specific decktype to be utilized effectively. you cannot have backrows. sinister has no issues like that. it is myopic to think that t1 swap for treeborn t2-t5 summon monarch is more dangerous for the game than something like sinister. and again, if you want consistent sinister, run undine engine.

Sinister Serpent will also require a deck built around it to be used effectively. It is not easily splashed in other decks. Genex Undine is a fantastic cards, but it forces me to run Genex Controller. Who sucks. And Genex as an archetype sucks. The only time the Genex Undine Engine saw use was with Genex Synchro Monarch decks.

(This is only from what I remember, though, maybe it saw use elsewhere).


yeah i shouldn't have exaggerated, there are a lot of decks that dont want sinister. the problem i have with sinister is that even though im mentioning card combos, its broken because its not even a combo card. there are so few cards in the game that do what theyre supposed to do by themselves and dont need any outside help.

sinister will always do what it's supposed to do every turn of every game. granted, bringing sinister back wouldn't break the game. it probably wouldn't even make it noticeably more imbalanced. but if you don't see how a card that always does its job (assuming said job is useful, which it is) with no outside help is problematic, then i dont know what to tell you. bls doesnt break the game either, but its not exactly conducive to a reasonable dueling environment.

BLS is a format defining card. He's totally busted. He's one of those cards you can drop very easily and is a game ender as soon as he hits the field. The only reason Chaos is so popular and strong is because of this card.

Sinister Serpent is nothing like this. Sinister Serpent is slow, and only makes other cards like PWWB marginally more useful because you sacrifice synergy in your deck by running him instead of the viable substitutes that are easily splashed, like Compulsory Evacuation Device.

this argument doesnt hold water because it existed at the same time sinister was unbanned. why fill your grave with sinister when you can fill your grave with goodies? hint: because sinister is a goodie.

I actually don't know much about what the format looked like when Sinister was banned to be able to comment.

Lightsworns, Lights, Darks, Dragunity Dux, Grapha, Inzektor Hornet, Wind-Up Hunter, Blackwing Zephyros the Elite (also any other Blackwing), Scrap Beast, Spore, Glow-Up, Dandylion, Plaguespreader Zombie, Mezuki, Any Laval Monster, Treeborn Frog, Any HERO monster, Any Dragon Monster to be readily revived by Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon, Level Eater, Mystic Piper (Kinka-Byo abuse), any of the Djinn's (ritual decks), A Fairy (Krystia/Hyperion), Ojamagic, Infernity Archfiend/Necromancer/The Level 1 Tuner who's name escapes me at this very moment, all sound like better goodies to have in the graveyard.

Good archetypes are so reliant on other cards in the other archetype that it's hard to splash in cards like Sinister Serpent unless the deck already revolved around discarding something.

What targets does Sinister Serpent have to make really good use of, anyways?

Divine Wrath

Not as easily splashed as Effect Veiler and Fiendish Chain, who essentially do this card's job by completely shutting down the opponents play for a turn. Effect Veiler is also a nice pitch for future Chaos monster plays.

Phoenix Wing Wind Blast

Compulsory Evacuation Device is much more easily splashed and does basically the same thing; disrupt/stop plays.

A Feather of the Phoenix

This might be the only target he would break.

Monster Reincarnation

Only run in Lightsworns and will never be used in any other deck other than Lightsworns.

Dragon Ravine

Only used in Dragon Decks, and they can only turn Sinister Serpent into a +1 after they've already loaded their graveyard with everything they need. Still, probably one of the only decks that would actually run him.

Super Polymerization

Only used by HEROes, and they're better off pitching something that can be used for a future Miracle Fusion play.

Snipe Hunter

Only used in Fabled and Ojamas, and they have better pitches, like other Fabled Monsters or Ojamagic.

Brionac, Dragon of the Ice Barrier

I have mixed feelings on whether this card can be considered healthy for the metagame anyways with it being a loop and OTK enabler. But you're not going to be running Sinister Serpent just so you can use Brionac, Dragon of the Ice Barrier. You bring him out when you're pushing for game and that won't change with or without Sinister Serpent.

So, from what I understand, the only decks that would actually make use of Sinister Serpent at one are:

Reptiles (which suck anyways)
Lightsworn (Charge of the Light Brigade and Lumina being bumped up are the only things that will improve the deck)
Dragon Ravine/Dragunity Decks (which aren't amazing anyways)
Decks that use the Undine Engine

Every other deck has better things to do.

 

[Glen]

if this is gonna keep going i'd prefer if you responded with the same formatting i do, it's kinda tricky to have to copy/paste your stuff as well as quote it

I'm comparing Sinister Serpent and Treeborn Frog because of what they achieve/enable. In decks that look to utilize either, the conditions for abusing them will be there, so the minor stipulations they have in the means by which you abuse them is irrelevant because that's not the point I'm trying to make.

i'm regretting saying sinister is better than treeborn because one requires a specific deck to be run effectively and one does not. there is no 'sinister serpent deck'. it's just a card that you can run for free hand presence. it's disingenuous to compare their 'conditions' because sinister does not have any conditions and treeborn does.

Treeborn Frog and Sinister Serpent are both a card that enables something else to be costless. Treeborn Frog allows one free 2400 (roughly, depends on the monster) monster with a nasty effect per turn. Sinister Serpent will allow one free discard per turn.

i don't understand why you think backrow compatibility or lack thereof is unworthy of being remarked upon

Both of these monsters are only as good as the cards that abuse them. I don't feel Sinister Serpent has many of those in comparison to Treeborn Frog, who can drop shit like Vanity's Fiend.

i'm not arguing with this. frog monarch better exploits treeborn than 'sinister deck' abuses sinister, yes. this is not something i am contesting.

(Did you mean to say Sinister Serpent? If you meant Serpent in the comparison, Frog can't dump him because he's not Aqua-type. But I'll assume you meant Frog.)

yeah sorry, i meant sinister. there is a reason water synchro was the best deck last year pre-librarian, and top tier post-librarian. that reason wasn't swap frog. granted a lot of its brokenness stemmed from fishborg but it's shaky business arguing inherent usefulness vs combo usefulness so i won't argue this point too heavily

Swap Frog can pitch a dead card, special summon itself, and send a card to the graveyard without wasting the normal summon - and it isn't forced to run a crappy level 3 normal tuner.

yeah i know what swap frog does

Sorry! It was late when I was typing up these responses. I hope they're easier to understand thus far. I meant to say they're dead draws until you draw Sinister Serpent, yeah. Phoenix Wing is a playable card, but a discard is a heavy cost, and you've have to be pitching a card you need in the graveyard anyways. And more than likely, there are better means by which you can do that.

no, phoenix wing wind blast is an amazing card whether you're dumping sinister or not. it destroys rabbit plays (and rabbit is better than inzek and windup imo), completely destroys your opponent if they open slow, and punishes newly set backrows better than any card in the game. i would much rather wind blast pitching a decent card in my hand to tag a kabazauls than i would compulsory it/compulsory the laggia.

As for the underlined, I would agree with this if it were a better card, but it's not. It's just not that great. Yeah, it's a costless discard, but how many decks would run it? Only the ones that desperately need the help or can properly take advantage of it. At the moment, from what I understand, that's like, 3 (Dragunity/Dragon Ravine, Genex, and Reptiles) all of which are mediocre/terrible, and would only become marginally better. Maybe.

genex and reptile aren't decks. i say with candor that a sinister undine deck could be top tier, monster list like

3 x maxx c
3 x effect veiler
3 x tour guide
3 x genex undine
2 x genex controller
1 x sinister serpent
1 x d.d. crow
1 x sangan
1 x gorz
1-2 caius (mostly just to get sinister back into the grave if/when you leviair it)

maybe put in some guaibas? then choose a few wind blast/divine wrath/potentially lol magic jammer if you really wanna protect laggia or something.

don't get me wrong, i don't think this deck would be 'broken' or anything, but it's something i could see being good. t1 undine for controller serpent is a neat +2 for one card, protect the undine is easy and next turn you either sync brio with serpent for insane pressure every turn (you put them on a 3-turn clock essentially [i know brio x 3 is only 6900 but you can probably do 1100 with another monster in hand over 3 turns], and with seven hand traps and probably lotsa backrows you can make it really hard for them), or xyz leviair or zenmaines or something.

The effect of making it go to the top of the deck is not a reasonable excuse to run Sinister Serpent + that card over something that's more splashable, like Compulsory Evacuation Device, which doesn't compromise synergy or deck space.

for someone hyping frog + raiza you dont seem to like wind blast that much. imo wind blast is a stronger card than compulse even without serpent, i cant totally illustrate it using theoryoh unfortunately so my argument here is kinda weak. i dont think you understand what synergy means though??

What will Sinister Serpent hurt? What decks can properly utilize one Sinister Serpent? What will Sinister Serpent break?

sinister serpent hurts potential future card design and upsets a delicate balance. this game is so far beyond fucked that it wouldn't even come close to breaking the game, as i've said before, but it wouldn't help at all.

it is not a well-designed card. i don't know how to better illustrate this. you've admitted to not having played with it ever and i'm trying my best not to use that as an argument against it but i've played competitively in every format since the game started. im really trying to avoid saying 'you just have to trust me, i know more than you' but i dont know what else i can say here.

Sinister Serpent will also require a deck built around it to be used effectively. It is not easily splashed in other decks. Genex Undine is a fantastic cards, but it forces me to run Genex Controller. Who sucks. And Genex as an archetype sucks. The only time the Genex Undine Engine saw use was with Genex Synchro Monarch decks.

(This is only from what I remember, though, maybe it saw use elsewhere).

again, controller doesnt suck, and undine engine got better with the release of xyz. see my above tentative monster list for explanations.

BLS is a format defining card. He's totally busted. He's one of those cards you can drop very easily and is a game ender as soon as he hits the field. The only reason Chaos is so popular and strong is because of this card.

Sinister Serpent is nothing like this. Sinister Serpent is slow, and only makes other cards like PWWB marginally more useful because you sacrifice synergy in your deck by running him instead of the viable substitutes that are easily splashed, like Compulsory Evacuation Device.

bls is not a format defining card. yeah it's busted but nobody plays it right and if you play your own veilers properly you can survive bls. i have no idea what you mean when you say 'chaos is so popular' because it isnt. you mean running darks and lights in the same deck? triple veiler belongs in every deck and darks are generally good. this has nothing to do with bls. he doesnt centralize the format at all.

perhaps i didnt explain my comparison properly. i dont think sinister is at all like bls in function or design. what i was saying was that a card does not have to directly break the game to be a problem. bls doesnt break the game, but it sure as fuck has no business being here.

you again say that sinister hurts a deck's synergy. what does that even mean?

I actually don't know much about what the format looked like when Sinister was banned to be able to comment.

im assuming you mean unbanned

Lightsworns, Lights, Darks, Dragunity Dux, Grapha, Inzektor Hornet, Wind-Up Hunter, Blackwing Zephyros the Elite (also any other Blackwing), Scrap Beast, Spore, Glow-Up, Dandylion, Plaguespreader Zombie, Mezuki, Any Laval Monster, Treeborn Frog, Any HERO monster, Any Dragon Monster to be readily revived by Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon, Level Eater, Mystic Piper (Kinka-Byo abuse), any of the Djinn's (ritual decks), A Fairy (Krystia/Hyperion), Ojamagic, Infernity Archfiend/Necromancer/The Level 1 Tuner who's name escapes me at this very moment, all sound like better goodies to have in the graveyard.

i'm honestly at a loss for how to respond to this. none of those cards are reusable in the same way that sinister is. it's a free card every turn. you may as well be saying graceful is better than pot because dumping goodies is more useful than free cards.

Good archetypes are so reliant on other cards in the other archetype that it's hard to splash in cards like Sinister Serpent unless the deck already revolved around discarding something.

after thinking a lot about it, i agree that sinister is nowhere near as staple as it would have been years ago. it's still just poor card design. after all this arguing, you still have not told me why you think it would help the game.

so please, explain to me. what good does sinister do for the game? how would it make the game more competitive?

 

[Cshadow]

if this is gonna keep going i'd prefer if you responded with the same formatting i do, it's kinda tricky to have to copy/paste your stuff as well as quote it

Sorry! Will do. Though I don't believe we'll be going on much longer.

no, phoenix wing wind blast is an amazing card whether you're dumping sinister or not. it destroys rabbit plays (and rabbit is better than inzek and windup imo), completely destroys your opponent if they open slow, and punishes newly set backrows better than any card in the game. i would much rather wind blast pitching a decent card in my hand to tag a kabazauls than i would compulsory it/compulsory the laggia.

For arguments sake; after rabbit banishes itself to get the two 1700 beaters, wouldn't Bottomless Trap Hole be a better/best response since it banishes both and leaves the field empty? If PWWB was so amazing, why aren't people running it? But I understand your point.

genex and reptile aren't decks. i say with candor that a sinister undine deck could be top tier, monster list like

3 x maxx c
3 x effect veiler
3 x tour guide
3 x genex undine
2 x genex controller
1 x sinister serpent
1 x d.d. crow
1 x sangan
1 x gorz
1-2 caius (mostly just to get sinister back into the grave if/when you leviair it)

maybe put in some guaibas? then choose a few wind blast/divine wrath/potentially lol magic jammer if you really wanna protect laggia or something.

This looks cool, actually.

don't get me wrong, i don't think this deck would be 'broken' or anything, but it's something i could see being good. t1 undine for controller serpent is a neat +2 for one card, protect the undine is easy and next turn you either sync brio with serpent for insane pressure every turn (you put them on a 3-turn clock essentially [i know brio x 3 is only 6900 but you can probably do 1100 with another monster in hand over 3 turns], and with seven hand traps and probably lotsa backrows you can make it really hard for them), or xyz leviair or zenmaines or something.

That sounds like a lot of fun to play~

for someone hyping frog + raiza you dont seem to like wind blast that much. imo wind blast is a stronger card than compulse even without serpent, i cant totally illustrate it using theoryoh unfortunately so my argument here is kinda weak. i dont think you understand what synergy means though??

I don't know if saying 'hyping' is fair when I was just making a comparison between the two. I just don't like cards that require a discard and have to be set (making them susceptible to mst) when I can use a monster that does the same thing. I'll get to the synergy thing-y in a moment.

sinister serpent hurts potential future card design and upsets a delicate balance. this game is so far beyond fucked that it wouldn't even come close to breaking the game, as i've said before, but it wouldn't help at all.

That's fair.

you again say that sinister hurts a deck's synergy. what does that even mean?

Six Samurai, Kaukuri, Dark World, Laval, Agents, T.G. ____, Malefic Skill Drain, Scraps, Heroes, Tengu Plants, Inzektors, Wind-Ups, Gladiator Beast, Gishki, Gusto, Steelswarm, blahblahblahblahblah you get the idea

Why would these decks sacrifice consistency for Sinister Serpent and cards he can abuse, when they operate wonderfully without him? Adding him in would only hurt how well the decks run.

That's what I mean - Sinster Serpent doesn't add consistency to current meta decks. It only enables you to have a discard outlet for cards that nobody runs because they don't need to. They have substitutes for Divine Wrath in Fiendish Chain and Effect Veiler and a substitute for PWWB with Compulsory Evacuation Device.

If Sinister Serpent is run by any deck (like the one you posted) it'll be decks that can spare the room and actually don't have many better options. But there aren't many decks like that.

Sinister Serpent can only help the lesser/worse decks like Lightsworn/Dragunity/Zombie by giving them a discard outlet for Lumina/Ravine/Zombie Master, and even then it won't be enough to bump them up to brokenness. I don't see how helping these decks out is necessairly bad for the meta, either.

im assuming you mean unbanned

Yeah my bad~

after thinking a lot about it, i agree that sinister is nowhere near as staple as it would have been years ago. it's still just poor card design. after all this arguing, you still have not told me why you think it would help the game.

If it won't hurt the game, it don't see why it can't come off the banlist.

so please, explain to me. what good does sinister do for the game? how would it make the game more competitive?

It doesn't do much good other than giving Lightsworn/Zombies/Dragunity a tech to help them compete a little better. That's it.

And that's really why. I can't see it making an impact or hurting anything, only helping decks that struggle as it is.

However, you made a good point when you said it's not a well-designed card and can affect future card designs in a negative way. That's a fair reason to keep it banned.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I've always wondered how my gimmicky burn deck would fare against other actually human players and so far after downloading the sim it seems to work out pretty well!

Hide

Basically is a reasonably normal burn deck that wears the opponent down, using Bad Reaction to Simochi to turn the Gift Cards into 3000 LP bombs. The Secret Barrels are notable for quick strikes of 1000+ LP and the Lava Golem's are very useful with the stalling techniques. Overall its a really fun deck to use and the reaction whenever I hit the OTK is priceless!

 

[sheep]

zenmaines, PoA, a part of the plantline all need to get hit. As well as piece of shit tour guide.

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

I've always wondered how my gimmicky burn deck would fare against other actually human players and so far after downloading the sim it seems to work out pretty well!

Hide

Basically is a reasonably normal burn deck that wears the opponent down, using Bad Reaction to Simochi to turn the Gift Cards into 3000 LP bombs. The Secret Barrels are notable for quick strikes of 1000+ LP and the Lava Golem's are very useful with the stalling techniques. Overall its a really fun deck to use and the reaction whenever I hit the OTK is priceless!

You might as well run full reverse burn. Use three dualities, three Nurse Reficule the Fallen Ones, Three Upstart Goblins, Three Paths of Destiny.

 

[reyscarface]

dont forget

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

Haha, I was merely adding what he didn't have yet!

 

[reyscarface]

oh didnt see those my bad lol

but really chain burn > reverse burn