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Zapdos (Done) [Approval 2/2] [GP Checks 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Lockeness, Apr 4, 2012.

  1. Lockeness

    Lockeness (e^(i╥))+1=0

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    Zapdos is done! [GP Check 2/2] [Approval 2/2]

    [Overview]

    <p>It might look like a distant second cousin to Big Bird, but Zapdos is no Sesame Street pushover. Zapdos has a wonderful base 125 Special Attack and base 100 Speed, giving it the power and Speed to hammer many of GSC's top threats. Its STAB Thunder is not only incredibly powerful, but can also neuter opponents with paralysis. Zapdos also has great mixed defensive stats perfectly tailored for a RestTalk set; 90 / 85 / 90 defenses, combined with nifty resistances to Megahorn and Cross Chop, allow it to switch in easily. However, the greatest benefit from Zapdos's brilliant Electric / Flying typing is the immunity it grants to the ubiquitous Earthquake and Spikes; Zapdos's ability to switch in unimpaired by entry hazards is one of its biggest selling points. With its excellent all-around stats, wide coverage, and few weaknesses, Zapdos is an easy fit on many teams.</p>

    [SET]
    name: RestTalk
    move 1: Thunder / Thunderbolt
    move 2: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Water
    move 3: Rest
    move 4: Sleep Talk
    item: Leftovers

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set is what makes Zapdos such a powerful threat. Great Special Attack combined with the ability to perpetually get rid of status and restore health with virtually no drawbacks turns Zapdos into a powerful tank. This set capitalizes on Zapdos's high Special Attack, allowing it to slam the numerous physical threats with its powerful STAB or Hidden Power. The choice between Thunder and Thunderbolt depends on what your team needs more: power or consistency. Defensive teams will often prefer the consistent accuracy and high PP of Thunderbolt, while offensive teams will typically favor Thunder's significantly higher Base Power. Thunder will allow Zapdos to do far more damage, however, specifically 2HKOing Miltank and possibly 3HKOing Snorlax with Spikes support or a critical hit; its 30% chance of paralysis also wards off potential switch-ins such as Raikou and Jolteon. Thunderbolt is less powerful than Thunder, but its perfect accuracy gives it more consistency against threats such as Belly Drum Charizard, Growth Vaporeon, and the occasional Swords Dance Tentacruel. Hidden Power Ice offers wonderful coverage against many of the threats Thunder cannot deal with, such as Rhydon and Exeggutor, as well as opposing Zapdos if you don't want to risk Thunder missing. Together, the two moves have pseudo-BoltBeam coverage, hitting every single Pokemon in OU for neutral damage. Hidden Power Water is a notable option if you want to hit Ground-types such as Rhydon and Steelix harder. However, the extra coverage from Hidden Power Ice, especially against Exeggutor, is generally more useful. The lasts two slots are devoted to Rest and Sleep Talk. With these two moves, Zapdos makes a great status absorber and tank, as well as a more consistent check to Vaporeon and Exeggutor. Sleep Talk eliminates almost all of the downsides of using Rest and gives Zapdos the ability to stay healthy and pose a threat. With its good defenses, RestTalk Zapdos will be difficult to take down without a critical hit or a powerful, super effective attack, such as Rock Slide or Ice Beam.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Running Drill Peck over Hidden Power Ice will give Zapdos a better match-up against threats such as Heracross, Machamp, and Exeggutor, but the loss of coverage is notable. Zapdos can also consider running Hidden Power Grass to deal a lot of damage to Quagsire that switch in expecting to sponge Thunder or Hidden Power Ice.</p>

    <p>Zapdos loves Spikes support because its main counters, namely Quagsire, Exeggutor, and Raikou are all grounded and will be far easier to deal with after Spikes damage. Cloyster makes a great partner in this regard, as it can both lay Spikes and hammer troublesome Ground-types with Surf. Offensive partners such as Gengar and Exeggutor are a great help to Zapdos as well, because they lure in the three major walls that trouble Zapdos—Blissey, Raikou, and Snorlax—and can use a strong Explosion to KO or severely weaken them. Exeggutor can check Quagsire with ease while Gengar acts as an effective lure to it. Zapdos also enjoys support from Snorlax, which can take on problematic opponents such as Raikou, Jolteon, and Blissey, while a Raikou of your own will take on opposing Electric-types with ease. On more defensive teams, Zapdos enjoys support from a good Snorlax check such as Skarmory or Miltank. With Toxic, Spikes, and phazing support, Zapdos can become truly terrifying.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>As a legendary Pokemon, Zapdos has quite a few additional options it can use. It can boost its team's defenses with Light Screen and Reflect, or carry Thunder Wave to cripple opponents, especially Raikou. Zapdos can also use Whirlwind to make use of Spikes previously laid by a teammate and play the role of an offensive phazer. However, keep in mind that using any of these moves will force Zapdos to give up either Sleep Talk or Rest. Without RestTalk, Zapdos will be forced to play more conservatively and cannot fill the role of a tank. The loss in longevity is very noticeable and is not recommended unless your team really needs one of Zapdos's support options. Beyond support options, Zapdos does have a few other offensive choices. It can go mixed by running Drill Peck over Sleep Talk, but again, it will lose longevity, and it will still have problems with Raikou, Blissey, Snorlax, and Quagsire, so this is not recommended.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Raikou is hands down the best counter to Zapdos, as it can take any of Zapdos's moves, including Hidden Power, while either phazing or hammering Zapdos with a powerful STAB Thunder of its own. Blissey will wall Zapdos all day long, as STAB Drill Peck only 4HKOes it at best barring a critical hit; however, Blissey is largely unable to do anything significant to Zapdos. With RestTalk or Heal Bell support, Snorlax will easily take on even Zapdos that pack Thunder; nonetheless, pairing Snorlax with a Ground-type to lure Hidden Power can be extremely useful. Ground-types can also threaten Zapdos with super effective Rock- or Ice-type attacks, forcing it to switch or risk being KOed. Quagsire is a wonderful counter as it doesn't mind taking either Hidden Power Ice or Water and can absorb Thunder. Steelix also works as an effective pivot for teams looking to bring in a check to Zapdos against a relatively weak Hidden Power Ice. Steelix can also set up Curse and threaten Zapdos with a +1 Rock Slide; it can also phaze or use Explosion in an emergency. As it takes little from Zapdos's attacks, Jolteon can use Zapdos as setup bait. After it grabs an Agility or Growth, Jolteon can Baton Pass a deadly Speed or offensive boost to a teammate such as Marowak or Snorlax to help them sweep Zapdos's team. Tyranitar also gets a mention as a check because of its powerful Rock Slide, but it makes a poor switch-in to Thunder.</p>
  2. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    If zapdos uses a sleep talk set, HP ice should be the main option. Drill peck wont 2hko Snorlax or Blissey.
    If zapdos doesnt use sleep talk, then it should use hp water + drill peck.


    Some general things about the counters section:
    I wouldnt say that zapdos has too many problems with tyranitar when a thunder does a lot. HP ice/water (~90% of zapdos use HP) will destroy things like Rhydon.
    You should mention Nidoking and Marowak as checks too (especially if zapdos doesnt have HP).
    Quagsire is the best zapdos counter in the game, and you forgot to mention it.
    You dont mention Blissey or Snorlax, although Lax will be 3HKOed by thunder with spikes or with a crit, and the same with Drill Peck and Blissey. Blissey, Raikou, Snorlax and Quagsire are the best Zapdos counters.
    Steelix fears HP water (which 3HKOes), but its a nice check.
  3. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    I figured the whole point of the update was to make Hidden Power the main attacking option (as opposed to what the current analysis says, which is Drill Peck).
  4. DracoMalfoy

    DracoMalfoy take one look and die
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    This.

    Put Hidden Power Water / Hidden Power Ice over Drill Peck, which means you'll have to rewrite the analysis almost entirely, making the likes of Rhydon and Steelix way less dangerous.
  5. Lockeness

    Lockeness (e^(i╥))+1=0

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    That makes sense, and is fairly simple to do. Just a quick thought, but would it be ok if I left the RestTalking set and just added in one with Hidden Power Water/Ice? Also, what is the exact set that Zapdos runs these days? I can change the overview a little bit and alter the counters section more, but if its ok with you guys I'd like to know what you think of the current analysis? Can the problem be fixed by adding in a new set? Post away!
  6. gene

    gene GENE
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    thunder(bolt) / hp ice / rest / sleep talk is the set everyone uses. hp water is only useful for destroying rhydon and steelix (but hp ice does enough to both already). drill peck was the standard when hp legends were banned, there's really no reason to use it anymore though.

    you should mention why you should use thunderbolt or thunder. thunder can be really devastating with spikes as it will hurt snorlax too hard on the switch for it to be a solid counter. the par chance can also screw over switches like jolteon. thunderbolt is overall more reliable and harder to stall out.

    nidoking and marowak shouldn't be added as counters or checks -- they take way too much damage from hp ice. even before the hp legends ban was lifted, drill peck would wound them too much for them to be real counters. they don't have a reliable regen source, so taking 25-30% each switch is going to add up quickly.
  7. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    95% of zapdos use restalk, thunder(bolt) and HP ice
  8. Lockeness

    Lockeness (e^(i╥))+1=0

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    I changed the analysis to reflect the dominance of hidden power ice over Drill Peck. Suggestions are welcome!
  9. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Not bad. Here's some suggestions:

    Overview
    *That last paragraph seems redundant. You might be able to fit in the fact that Zapdos' two weaknesses are typically unSTABbed in the first paragraph (...STAB combo, and mere two weaknesses that are typically unSTABbed, Zapdos is an...).
    *Speaking of that sentence, get rid of the mention of STAB combo. Drill Peck isn't even the main secondary move.
    *You say it can't counter every threat. Well, actually, Zapdos comes as close to that silly notion as possible. It tanks Snorlax as well as any Special Attacker could hope to and fires off Thunders in its face, it handles miscellaneous threats like Machamp and Heracross well, it even stands a good chance against STAB Ice Beam and Rock Sliders such as Jynx and Tyranitar. You name the offensive threat, and Zapdos can go toe-to-toe with it. With the exception of Quagsire and Thunder Raikou - it tanks Thunderbolt variants fine and can afford to stay in and go for some Thunder paralysis against Thunderbolt Raikou, but Thunder Raikou just does too much with each hit.


    Set
    *Hidden Power Water probably deserves a slash after Ice. Ice is preferred because of Exeggutor, but the extra power against Steelix and Rhydon that HP Water affords is certainly worth a mention.


    Set Comments
    *Poignant is not exactly a word I'd use to describe Zapdos. Or anything Pokemon-related, really, unless Zapdos brings back bittersweet memories of playing Pokemon with your late little brother while he was battling cancer or something.
    *Thunder doesn't just make it harder for Snorlax to set up on Zapdos; it also lets you actually kill the fatso. Thunderbolt actually hits hard enough to keep Snorlax from setting up in its face most of the time, whereas Thunder can miss at crucial moments, so I wouldn't say keeping Snorlax from setting up is the main draw of Thunder. It's definitely the raw KO power.
    *I wouldn't say Thunder's preferred because Zapdos has the bulk to afford the miss; the power is necessary to kill Snorlax, the king of GSC. It's also good for a bunch of other stuff, like having over twice the paralysis rate of Thunderbolt and being able to 2HKO Miltank.
    *In HP Ice's description, Exeggutor should go over Steelix. Steelix isn't exactly threatened by HP Ice; it's just that it generally accomplishes little against Zapdos itself.
    *Hitting almost every Pokemon in OU for neutral damage - change this to EVERY Pokemon in OU. Technically, an HP Ice against Raikou is unresisted, even though it might as well be.

    Additional Comments
    *Gengar is probably the number 1 best teammate Zapdos could ask for. It baits all four major Zapdos walls - Raikou, Snorlax, Blissey, and Quagsire - especially if it's running DynamicPunch to scare off Tyranitar.
    *Slaking? You mean Snorlax, I'm sure. Change that.


    Other Options
    *The main reasons to use Drill Peck are Heracross, Machamp, and ensuring that you always get a decent Sleep Talk against stuff that's neutral to both your STABs. Hitting Snorlax with a Sleep-Talked HP Ice on the switch is groan-worthy; with Drill Peck, you take out a significant chunk. Rhydon and Steelix laugh at you, though, and you don't pressure Marowak as heavily into using Rock Slide, either, making it harder to get your Water-type in.
    *Toxic should not be the second Other Option mentioned. And Drill Peck certainly shouldn't be the first. If anything, I'd first talk about the support moves that usually go over Sleep Talk (and possibly Rest if you opt for two of these support options): Thunder Wave (HP Water preferred to nail Steelix), Reflect/Light Screen, and Roar/Whirlwind. Mention how losing Sleep Talk transforms Zapdos from a general Tank to a more specialized supporter that cannot be played as recklessly. THEN you can mention Drill Peck and Hidden Power Grass as alternative attacking options. Toxic, if it's mentioned at all, should be at the end.
    *Either longevity or Power? Nobody is giving up Zapdos' two attacking moves, so it's always longevity that takes a hit. If anyone is running one of the Other Options, it's over Sleep Talk. If they're running two, the second goes over Rest because Zapdos is not that great at pulling off Rest without Sleep Talk.


    Checks and Counters

    *QUAAAAG. No, seriously.
    *Blissey only takes 29-34% from Drill Peck; coupled with Softboiled, even Drill Peck Zapdos isn't getting by the blob.
    *Snorlax walls Thunder Zapdos too, especially if it runs Sleep Talk. Sure, in the one-on-one, it gets beat by a crit, but it also gets a lot of momentum with a miss. It just gets kind of shaky as a check if it's taking a lot of Thunders on the switch, ESPECIALLY if Spikes are down, which is why it likes Ground-types alongside it to draw weak Hidden Powers for it to switch in on.
    *Tyranitar isn't taking Thunders all day. Thunderbolts, maybe, but even that's a stretch since a lot of Tyrantar don't run Rest.

    *Exeggutor works well against Zapdos that do not run Drill Peck or Hidden Power Ice. It doesn't outright hardwall, but Zapdos isn't going to be able to stay in on Psychics, Stun Spores, and possible Explosions if it can't 2-3HKO Eggy in return.


    I'm not quite ready to approve yet; I'd have to look over the revised version to see how it's changed, since this list of suggestions is admittedly kinda long.
  10. Lockeness

    Lockeness (e^(i╥))+1=0

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    Ok, I edited in Jorgen's suggestions. Ready for more great advice and approval checks!
  11. Earthworm

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    Can you mention specifically immunity to spikes somewhere in one of the lists of Zapdos' qualities? I feel like it's a huge factor in making Zapdos as amazing as it is.

    if it takes a couple of turns of Spikes damage or gets crit

    Water

    I'd say Cloyster is the best partner since Zapdos is undoubtedly one of the top abusers of Spikes pressure. Not only does it force a lot of switches, it is immune to Spikes itself, and all of its counters are grounded. Cloyster also threatens and checks 3/4 of the main ground types that can trouble Zapdos (it's only really bad against coming in against Rhydon). I feel like when playing with and against Spikes, Zapdos is pretty much the best.

    Gengar is good too though and certainly deserves a mention for its ability to threaten everything and make a hole in an opponent's team for Zapdos to abuse.

    The defensive partners section is really general. I think you are over-valuing Misdreavus as a partner a bit. While it does help keep spikes up and can help to take explosions if you predict right, it doesn't really help that much against too many things that are good against Zapdos (e.g. ground types, raikou, ttar kinda). So I think it is more of a good teammate for a good teammate than strictly a good teammate for Zapdos (so I don't think it belongs in this analysis).

    Remove "If using Thunderbolt" since Zapdos will often need help against lax regardless of what moves it uses.

    Slaking should be Snorlax

    The last 2 sentences seem really out of place, I'd drop them or move them somewhere else.

    I wouldn't mention these first since they aren't very common and I personally haven't seen them used effectively. Also you should probably say Roar or Whirlwind instead of and.

    It may be worth mentioning a three attacks Zapdos with Thunder/Drill Peck/HP (water/grass) for the best possible coverage of common Zapdos switches. I consider that set more viable than Thunder(bolt)/Drill Peck/Restalk personally, but that's because I would always use HP Ice if I was using Restalk.

    This should just say "surprise to Quagsire".

    I'd remove this

    16 pp 70 acc

    While Thunder does get low on PP sometimes, people aren't stupid enough to waste all of their PP generally... I would remove this sentence as well.

    This doesn't explain why ground types are good. You should say that they make good pivots and most are capable of forcing Zapdos out with strong rock attacks if they manage to come in safely.

    Exeggutor...?

    Also, you don't explain steelix very well in this section. Since HP Ice is more common than HP Water due to exeggutor, Steelix can often come in at little cost and threaten to explode on or rock slide Zapdos, and can Roar out whatever switches in to get leftovers recovery or potentially rack up spikes damage.

    I guess you could also mention that Zapdos doesn't really like going up against Rock Slide ttar even though ttar makes a poor zapdos switch.



    edit @ below: True, but I still personally wouldn't ever use that set when HP Ice is available. I edited what I wrote about it.
  12. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    There's only one of EW's comments I wouldn't really vouch for: namely, that Drill Peck is only effective on a 3 attacks set. Zapdos was a good Pokemon when Drill Peck was the only option on the Sleep Talk set. It's even better now that Hidden Power makes the Ground-type checks to Drill Peck Zapdos (most notably Rhydon) less common. It isn't the standard, not by a long shot, but it's in OO anyway and has its merits, albeit subtle ones, over Hidden Power: it guarantees that Heracross gets punished; it gives a strong 100% accurate attack to use against Gegnar and Machamp; and it ensures you get a decently strong STAB picked by Sleep Talk when Snorlax switches in.

    I wouldn't worry about putting the contents of this post into the analysis, I'm just giving my reasoning for dissent. It's still probably worth mentioning the 3 Attacks set in OO (I'd put it as one of the last mentions, because imo it's not a great idea to drop RestTalk for something other than Zapdos' enticing support movepool), but you probably shouldn't say that it's the only set where Drill Peck is effective.
  13. Lockeness

    Lockeness (e^(i╥))+1=0

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    I entered in EW's suggestions. This analysis is ready for more suggestions and approval checks!
  14. Pocket

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    Good work, Lockeness! Some few suggestions:

    Overview

    The Overview can be more organized. It may be more effective to highlight its offensive capabilities at the beginning, showing how this is a powerful threat. Then bring its attention to its defensive capabilities, explaining how it is also a challenge to eliminate.

    Offensive Capabilities
    • excellent base 125 SAtk coupled with a useful 100 base Speed
    • powerful STAB Thunder

    Defensive Capbilities
    • Impressive bulk for a special sweeper - 90 / 85 / 90; a pefect defense distribution for the RestTalking set
    • nifty Flying-type resistances - namely resistance to STAB Megahorn and STAB Cross Chop. Immunity to EQ and Spikes is the biggest selling point, though.
    This is so vague... it's like a filler sentence that can be used to describe any Pokemon. Delete this sentence

    Set Comments

    … "if it takes a couple of turns of Spikes damage or gets crit" - Earthworm.
    • You really can't say Thunderbolt is less easily stalled out... the drop in power arguably makes TBolt more prone to being stalled out by the likes of Snorlax and Zapdos (and apparently Miltank :o), whereas Thunder actually has the power to break through them, given that Thunder connects. I would remove this particular phrase and simply state that TB is more consistent.
    • change 'the extra boost in accuracy' to 'its perfect accuracy'
    • quite a few spelling errors :x
    Note that HP Ice can also hit opposing Zapdos for decent damage when you do not want to risk a Thunder miss.

    Additional Comments

    Drill Peck and RestTalk listed in OO should be in AC, since it relates to this RestTalking set. The 3 Atk option can remain in OO. Move all the talk about Drill Peck into AC.

    HP Grass can also be mentioned in AC rather than OO.

    Also mention Exeggutor, which also lures in special sponges, such as Raikou, Snorlax, Blissey, and Zapdos, all of which are Explosion bait. It is also a solid answer to Ground-types.

    Checks and Counters

    . Change this sentence to the following:

    It can force Zapdos out with the threat of Explosion or Rock Slide, and proceed to phaze out the incoming switch-in to rack up Spikes damage while earning a turn of leftovers recovery.
  15. Crystal_

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    Thunder's lower PP has never been a big issue for me. Rather than saying that Zapdos is not as easily stalled out I'd say that thunder's main disadvantage comes from when you are mainly dedicating Zapdos defensively to one of your opponent's threats such as Vaporeon, Machamp or Tentacruel, where thunder zapdos loses reliability. Or if you miss Thunder into a Cloy that is exploding or something.

    Thunder's main advantage is giving you a chance to 4hko Snorlax (making the ko possible if you predict when he's resting), and this chance becomes much higher with spikes. Thunder can also be useful for paralysing Raikou or Jolteon. And also the ko on miltank but I don't consider this very important since miltank doesn't even have enough milk drinks and speed tie can turn 3hko into 2hko.

    In general, I like Thunder in offensive teams and tbolt in more defensive/stall teams.

    Maybe you can say that ice is recommended on zapdos because most steelix can't do anything to zapdos other than exploding.

    Maybe you could specify more with sleep tank and say that defensively it's what allows zapdos to more reliably take on threats such as exeggutor and vaporeon and makes a good status absorber.

    AC should separate between offensive partners and defensive parters. Gengar and offensive cloy are for offensive teams while skarm and suicune are for making a much more defensive team. What you could say though, is that since thunderbolt zapdos will be running out from snorlax, solid snorlax checks such as skarm and miltank are really helpful. Alond with Suicune I'd also mention special walls such as Raikou and Snorlax a good defensive parters, mostly to take on opposing electrics.

    In C&C, unless Steelix is running curse+rs, steelix won't be able to do anyhting to zapdos other than exploding.

    idk about this, slide doesn't even 3hko zapdos. I agree with everything else Pocket said though, especially with mentioning exeggutor.
  16. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Yea I agree with everything Crystal said. Remove Rock Slide from that green phrase :d
  17. gene

    gene GENE
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    i would remove steelix from counters. it literally can't do anything to zapdos except explode (hardly makes it a counter). repeated attacks on the switch + possible spikes means steelix will get worn down. roaring zapdos away essentially does nothing except lets it heal back up with leftovers. very few steelix have rock slide or body slam, and neither move actually does much to zapdos.

    you could also mention jolteon. with thunder you have to be careful, but jolteon can switch in and agility against a thunderbolt zapdos easily. jolteon won't actually 1v1 you most of the time, but the easy pass to something like snorlax/marowak can totally screw you.
  18. Jorgen

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    Steelix is a mediocre counter to Zapdos in its own right. But it's not weak to Ice, so it makes a safer pivot than most other Grounds when it comes to taking the Thunder and getting Snorlax to come in on a Hidden Power. It's not like Steelix has absolutely zero play against Zapdos, either; it's forcing Zapdos to use Hidden Power or considering switching out with the threat of Explosion or Curse-boosted Rock Slide.
  19. Lockeness

    Lockeness (e^(i╥))+1=0

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    I edited in a bunch of changes and tweaks to the analysis. Approval checks and suggestions are still welcome!
  20. Crystal_

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    This seems kinda weird. I mean it's true, mut you make it sound like a resttalk snorlax check is a completely different thing from other Snorlax checks, and resttalk snorlax is the easiest snorlax to check. EDIT: I know what you could mean though, thunder zapdos has especial problems with resttalking snorlaxes, but if we are talking about thunderbolt, zapdos will be running out from every snorlax.

    You could add that curse+rock slide is generally uncommon however (and those that curseslide don't explode).

    I'd rewrite this it's kinda contradictory.

    Not exactly the upper hand imo, against jolteon you are only looking for paras in the swicthin and vs thunder raikou you have to switch out as well. Also, I'd probably say 21% rather than 30%, factoring in accuracy.

    Apart from these minor suggestions, the analysis is ready to get my approval (good job!), but I'd like you to have a look at these points first.
  21. Lockeness

    Lockeness (e^(i╥))+1=0

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    Crystal_'s suggestions have been added in. Thanks for your help!
  22. Crystal_

    Crystal_
    is a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

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    Also, something I didn't realise before, but WW deserves a mention in OO (near reflect, screen and Twave). Sure WW Zapdos has barely anything to offer defensively, but offensively it makes a pretty good spikes shuffler. Offensively, Zapdos is easily the second best phazer after Raikou, but Zapdos' alternative sets are underlooked due to how ridiculously useful ST Zapdos is.
  23. Lockeness

    Lockeness (e^(i╥))+1=0

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    Ok cool! I edited in your additional suggestions. Approval checks are appreciated!
  24. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Zapdos isn't really a sweeper. Its offense is more subtle, and it seems to imply that its defense is secondary, rather than core, to its usefulness.

    I'd take out the word "common", since Jolteon isn't really common

    Superfluous, take this out. It's not wrong, it's just not really adding anything.

    Exeggutor is reason numero uno Ice is preferred, so it's worth reiterating here. Also this wording is weird, the "however" should be at the beginning of the sentence, followed by a comma (However, the extra coverage from...)

    Only not really. Mixed sweeper implies Drill Peck actually lets it break Special Walls, and Snorlax, Blissey, and Raikou, the three main Special Walls, all take it easily. Drill Peck is more for specific matchups (e.g., Machamp, Heracross, Exeggutor) and ensuring that, when you're sleeping, you are attacking for at least somewhat decent damage in matchups where what you're up against (e.g., Snorlax, Vaporeon, Tentacruel) is at least neutral to both your STABs. It also does enough damage to Quagsire to keep it from Drumming in your face even at full health, for what it's worth.

    If its name isn't Quagsire, it's not a Ground-type Zapdos has trouble against. I'd take this sentence out.

    Eliminate this. How exactly does Rhydon help here? He can't switch in on any of those safely. Snorlax makes a better switch-in for all cases.

    Remove this. I don't see Suicune as a particularly good partner. Zapdos usually takes on users of these attacks well enough on its own, anyway. Ttar is the most common Rock Slider, and is both unable to switch in on Thunder and checked by much more than just Suicune, wherease Ice Beam is usually unSTABbed and typically not that threatening to Zapdos.

    No, Steelix and Rhydon get smacked by HP Water, which is what you use alongside STABs on this type of set. Here in OO, it's 3-attacks Zapdos that gets the mention; you already discussed the Drill Peck Sleep Talk set in AC. Just mention how it's still stuck against Raikou/Snorlax/Quag/Blissey and just isn't worth the loss of longevity and constant availability of Sleep Talk.

    Snorlax is always a solid check, which this seems to downplay.

    This sentence seems haphazardly added. It doesn't flow well with the paragraph at all. Consider removing.

    This is all just repeating what has already been said and can also be cut.

    I wouldn't call this set "uncommon", although it certainly isn't Steelix's undisputed standard.

    Steelix using Roar against Zapdos does next to nothing. It's not setting up, which is all that Phazing is really good for stopping.

    "...for set-up bait, being able to take whatever attacks Zapdos throws at it."

    Or Growth!



    Sorry, still below my threshold for approval as is. If I see these changes implemented, I'd be willing to approve.
  25. Lockeness

    Lockeness (e^(i╥))+1=0

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    Implemented! Awesome suggestions Jorgen! Your help is always appreciated!

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