OU GSC OU Discussion Thread

[coco]

It’s been almost a year since my first approach to this Tier and in this year (approximately) I’ve managed to accumulate a good knowledge of the Tier, playing, but above all listening a lot.
In my constant and continuous “desire to experiment with new concepts”, driven by a strong curiosity (a prominent characteristic of my personality), I have tried (and still try) to innovate and improve myself. Let’s be clear: it’s not easy to “innovate” and at the same time be “effective”, especially because straying too far from what makes a Pokemon effective can make it ineffective.
I specify that what I have chosen to explore I did not discover, but I firmly believe that in the past more experienced players have been able to discuss and test its effect.
My “merit”, if we really want to define it as such, has been to appreciate its effectiveness, bring it back to light and deepen its use, trying to apply it effectively to a tier that is much more dynamic than in the past.

So, after this short premise, I am here to talk about Sandstorm​

Thinking is essential for winning in Pokemon, especially in GSC, or at least for maintaining a consistent score of victories, and this is where the importance of “mindgaming” rather than simply “making predictions” comes from. The purpose of a mindgame is clearly to win the match, and this can be achieved by “shortening” the number of turns that separate us from victory, so as to leave less space for the opponent for their own strategies / mindgame / predict. When I mention “leaving less space for the opponent” it was precisely this aspect that struck me most about Sandstorm.
Having control of the game and managing its pace becomes a condition that very often leads to victory, without having to make unnecessary predictions or dangerous switchbacks.
But before we can talk about its effectiveness and how in my view it can be a determining factor, it is necessary to introduce its characteristics and effects:

- 16PP
- all active Pokemon lose 1/8 of their maximum HP unless they are a Ground, Rock, or Steel type. Fails if the current weather is Sandstorm. This means that you will not be able to reset the Sand as for Rain and Sun​

Entering into the more competitive aspect of the game and especially considering the importance of passive damage, Sand becomes therefore a factor that cannot, in my view, not be considered.
Inhibiting the opponent's Leftovers turns is a considerable advantage that leads the user to manage the pace, favoring victory without having to take risks, and forcing the opponent to have to take damage that in the long term can prove decisive forcing their plays.
Sandstorm has definitely been used in GSC stall(Omastar capitalizes on this best) before with good results but attempting Sandstorm on offense is a mostly untouched concept in the gen.
In theory, you used could use it to help put things in KO range along with spikes support. For example, one of the pokemon that I think is exceptional in its use is Nidoking because it exerts a lot of pressure on its most common checks (Snorlax -3HKed with sand and spikes)

There are several offensive and defensive strategies that make the most of Sandstorm.
Pokemon like Tyranitar or the Nidoking mentioned above are able to exert considerable pressure, thanks to their wide movepool and their offensive statistics.
Again, in a more defensive approach the Spam of Toxic, with Sand and Spikes turns into a real nightmare for the opponent who helpless will try to switch/force plays/consume pp. Not to be underestimated.

To make easier the understanding I share some replays:

- Vs Mashing
-Vs Voyager
​

It’s definitely not easy to use; it needs to be contextualized. I use "x" to favor "y" (as in my case above > I want to kill the electric / damage Snorlax with Sandstorm/Counter) to favor Vaporeon.
With this, I hope I have been able to give an input on its use and how effective this move can be in certain circumstances.
Maybe it can be a starting point for discussion, to hear the opinion of those who are more experienced.
I conclude by saying that in my personal opinion there is still room for improvement in this game and in this tier, and that player growth can still continue for a long time, perhaps improving the current state of the tier.

Thanks for reading!

 

[melancholy0]

Just thought I'd post a couple calcs/mechanics I reference fairly often:

Pursuit + Dbond: if the destiny bond user is faster and is KOd by pursuit while switching out, the pursuiter will not faint. replay
if the destiny bond user is slower and is KOd by pursuit while switching out, the pursuiter will faint. replay

HP type: hp fire and hp water really screw with your DVs so if they are in a certain range you can tell from damage rolls. Generally if it looks like it does too much, calc it (showdown rounds normally).

hp fire on forre: lax eq: <=18% not hp fire, >=21% hp fire
hp fire on egg: lax d-e: <=42% not hp fire, >=47% hp fire
hp water on kou: For zap thunder: <=20% not hp water, >=24% hp water.
hp water on zap: lax d-e: <=41% not hp water, >=49% hp water

note the hp water elecs are somewhat unlikely to detect.

 

[Chiles Habaneros]

Yesterday I thought about making a post to talk about 2023 GSC meta. I wanna point some trends that I've notice lately playing and watching GSC and hopefully start a discussion on how has usage and effectiveness of some pokemon changed. These are my thoughts and of course everyone can share theirs. So:


Since Fear, one of the greatest to ever touch the meta, used sleep talk Jynx in the latest SPL, it has become a real jynx set and some players have started to add it to their toolbox. RT Jynx sacrifices the ability jynx had to cripple pokemon (Lovely kiss, Thief) in exchange for the ability to switch for free into non hp fire exeggutor and non fire punch gengar, this set can be a little bit fishy, but it can put in a lot of work getting free chanes to do chip damage. Rest is also useful against stall, where you can rest up against toxic and switch in for free against pokemon such as Skarmory, Jynx being able to take toxic makes it a great partner for Whirwind zapdos, because they can work together breaking every defensive backbone. Even against bad matchups, Jynx sometimes can absorb sleep with correct play, allowing you to keep pokemon such as zapdos and snorlax awake, which are not bad taking sleep, but usually can put in a lot more work when they are not limited to click sleep talk for an unknown amount of turns.


The zammer is real good. It has encore, which is an amazing tool that turns the tables in a lot of matchups and the move is broken in gen 2. Alakazam in lategame is an authentic nightmare to some "old school offensive teams", it punishes vaporeon heavily, destroys nidogar/nidochamp builds, and sweeps while staying healthy. Toughest part is breaking through lax, but this is definitely a possible task. Fire punch is the strongest set in my opinion, but toxic is something to watch out for. Very useful pokemon that has been earning a place in the metagame at all levels, and should hava a sample team dedicated imo. Jynx and gengar are great partners, specially destiny bond sets which can trade with snorlax or crunch tyranitar. I'd like to point out a cool synergy I saw with counter jynx + encore zam, zam revealed might bait the snorlax player to not click curse in endgames, and makes lax very easy to take down with jynx if you manage to stay alive. Just something I wanted to say '-'


Our favorite purple dinosaur has been suffering lately. In this year's viability rankings it was already ranked pretty low, and the rise of the two mentioned pokemon and some more that I'll probably mention is relegating it to a sussy place in the metagame. It also hates the fact that Edge, Eq, RT lax has become the number one set by far, 3/3 punish nido, and this of course bad news. Stall, while being usable, has also reduced its usage at the highest level in my eyes, all of this combined is hurting nidoking's viability. Starmie is also everywhere and snorlax is not Kiss talkless anymore like some years ago.


King lebron has evolved to adapt to this highly offensive metagame. Double Edge, Earthquake, Rest and Sleep talk are the most common 4 moves by far on lax now. This set has everything. Coverage, great glue against stall and electrics, opportunities to punish it's checks and a lot of defensive role compression to fit a lot of different sets in offense. Of course it lacks the firepower of curse, but it has proven to be the very best. Curse monolax and curse EQ are still powerful like they have always been, but seeing so many rest talk has changed how GSC is player for sure. Flame variants are rarer every day and Drumlax is slowly getting forgotten.


Jolt is a pokemon that I've never liked. Because it is frail and needs to spend a turn using growth to become threatening, and then it has to hit one or two thunders against several pokemon to end up sweeping which gives it sussy odds. Still, jolt has proven to be amazing and, a bit like alakazam, Destroys offense once Lax is low. It has the big advantage of being able to set up against zapdos frequently (you might get paralyzed but most of the time you will want to take those odds) and being the fastest thing in GSC, at least among the common viable stuff. It's also good into nidoking and boomspam teams.


Mi dear and beloved hera is crying in a corner right now. With nidoking and machamp being a bit rarer (machamp is as good as it has always been in my eyes but yeah) it has less matchups where it sits, boosts and wins. getting rid of zapdos is becoming a bit more difficult and steelix is also omniprescent which of course, is a terrible matchup for heracross. So, with the things it checks, such as nidoking, machamp or marowak becoming rarer, the defensive utility of heracross is limited and it's less useful overall because it has a harder time trying to progress aswell.


with mean pass gone, skarmory has opted to drop Phazing more frequently. Drill peck + toxic is a magnific set. It doesn't allow anything for free (well, it does, but it's passive bird after all) It gets the work done better than the other sets. Also, the playerbase has started to think curse + toxic is a bit awkward, and this set has been taken less in consideration I think. Drill peck + whirlwind is the second best I'd say. it is a valuable win condition in long game scenarios and preserves whirlwind which is of course, ideal.


last but not least. I wanted to talk about blissey stall. I think stall overall is in a weird spot. A lot of stall vs offense games end up with stall getting haxed, and also stall tends to have a bad time since it always needs to keep the advantage in order to win, and offense has lots of tools to come back, which include, but are not limited to Double switching, spikes, and well timed explosions and crits. I've seen Conflict, which is the best GSC player right now in my eyes, use cool volt beam blissey sets in stall, and I think blissey stall should see a bit more usage. It allows builds that are not extremely passive, fitting pokemon like rhydon, curse kiss lax and more. Typical raikou + tyranitar is great and even raikou umbreon, but those suffer terribly in modern metagame and every game against a good opponent is a torture unless you get a dream matchup, which frequently means your opponent loading a doubtful build.

This got long. There's of course a lot more things to point out but I would like to see what everyone thinks about current state of the metagame and what has been popular, why, and if you don't agree with me, since I think GSC teambuilding is in a pretty cool moment especially at the highest level. Share your thoughts '-'

 

[Jorgen]

Hey, so I know we have the sample teams thread and all, which currently sorts things into "Offense", "Spikesless offense", and "Stall". But I'm a curmudgeon who's not totally happy with those three buckets. What buckets would y'all say capture the variety of teams out there? If I were to start sorting, they'd probably fall in the following six buckets, sorted in a rough tier list to boot:

Default playstyle tier

Spikes-based Explosion offense

Stall tier

Spikes-based PP stall

Stall with stallbreakers

Wackass unhinged offensive playstyle that will still kill you if you don't respect it tier

All-out Explosion offense

GrowthPass

AgiPass

What do y'all think?

• Anything I'm missing?
• Is my playstyle tier list wack?
• Is BP an unbucket on par with the likes of Sand and Sun?
• Is Thief a bucket?
• Would you further break things into subbuckets?

 

[gorgie]

It depends.

Is it being done to better accommodate new players, or just for fun? If the former, I'd keep broader buckets.

For instance I'd group your (agi/growth)pass into a single "BP bucket". I wouldn't differentiate all-out Explosion teams from regular spikes-based ones because...bad idea to sell to noobs.

If this is strictly experimental however, then it can start to get fun with subbuckets like you hinted.

Depends on the goal.

 

[Jorgen]

Well, if we’re gonna get meta, the goal is definitely not to make a set of recommendations for newbie teambuilders. It’s more for folks to quibble about what actually counts as a different yet *viable* playstyle and what is ultimately just a substitution of ingredients.

I think my thinking boils down to: have you ever ended up with a big folder of teams where half of them clearly play very similarly? Spring cleaning season is coming up and it’d be nice to at least know how many subfolders to make.

 

[Jirachee]

Hey, so I know we have the sample teams thread and all, which currently sorts things into "Offense", "Spikesless offense", and "Stall". But I'm a curmudgeon who's not totally happy with those three buckets. What buckets would y'all say capture the variety of teams out there? If I were to start sorting, they'd probably fall in the following six buckets, sorted in a rough tier list to boot:

Default playstyle tier

Spikes-based Explosion offense

Stall tier

Spikes-based PP stall

Stall with stallbreakers

Wackass unhinged offensive playstyle that will still kill you if you don't respect it tier

All-out Explosion offense

GrowthPass

AgiPass

What do y'all think?

• Anything I'm missing?
• Is my playstyle tier list wack?
• Is BP an unbucket on par with the likes of Sand and Sun?
• Is Thief a bucket?
• Would you further break things into subbuckets?

I think it's an interesting question, because GSC teams can usually differ playstyles based on sets alone. Either way, I think you may be missing a few categories so here are a couple of examples to discuss:

Is this a Boom offense? I wouldn't call it that personally. Yes, it's got 3 exploders, but the booms don't have specific targets to take down in order to set up a late game mon's sweep in the way Borat's team works. It can win in a lot of different ways, like a Lax sweep or just having more booms than the opponent has mons; but also simply through walling the opponent's remaining mons. I think a team like this would simply be a balance because it can tailor its win path to the opponent's team. Obviously it also depends on the sets you'd use, but the versatility is also an incentive for me to call it a balance.

Classic Nido Tar Gar. Again, I'm uncomfortable calling this a Boom offense. It's only got 2 boomers, and both are there primarily due to other factors. This is a reasonably offensive team that wins by distilling every last bit of value out of Spikes. Gengar and Nidoking can run Thief, but they don't have to. There are similar builds that run Jynx or Starmie as a late game sweeper, so I'd categorize those under the same bucket. It's tough to come up with a name but these all run mixed or special attackers. Maybe you could call it special offense since its goal will always be to beat down the special walls (Lax / Kou / Zap.)

 

[Jorgen]

I think it's an interesting question, because GSC teams can usually differ playstyles based on sets alone. Either way, I think you may be missing a few categories so here are a couple of examples to discuss:

Is this a Boom offense? I wouldn't call it that personally. Yes, it's got 3 exploders, but the booms don't have specific targets to take down in order to set up a late game mon's sweep in the way Borat's team works. It can win in a lot of different ways, like a Lax sweep or just having more booms than the opponent has mons; but also simply through walling the opponent's remaining mons. I think a team like this would simply be a balance because it can tailor its win path to the opponent's team. Obviously it also depends on the sets you'd use, but the versatility is also an incentive for me to call it a balance.

Classic Nido Tar Gar. Again, I'm uncomfortable calling this a Boom offense. It's only got 2 boomers, and both are there primarily due to other factors. This is a reasonably offensive team that wins by distilling every last bit of value out of Spikes. Gengar and Nidoking can run Thief, but they don't have to. There are similar builds that run Jynx or Starmie as a late game sweeper, so I'd categorize those under the same bucket. It's tough to come up with a name but these all run mixed or special attackers. Maybe you could call it special offense since its goal will always be to beat down the special walls (Lax / Kou / Zap.)

You're right. The "main" playstyle is probably better called "Spikes offense" than anything to do with Explosion. One might even call it "Balance" to keep things even more general. It's just that most teams in this mold have at least two Explosions that they use to punctuate the match, but the defining characteristic is definitely combining Spikes + a move like Zapdos Thunder to apply pressure on Snorlax.

Beyond that naming quibble, I'd happily put both of those teams in the same Spikes Offense bucket. Granted, this is by far the largest bucket, with double electric + golem spinner being on the conservative end of the spectrum, and nidogartar being on the aggressive end. I'm not sure I'd draw a categorical line between the two for any other reason than the arbitrary "I think this playstyle encompasses too many teams", though.

I personally find the various "stalls" in the sample teams thread to be more interesting edge cases. Let's consider the Double Dog stall credited to ABR & BKC as an example:

It's clearly got Skarmory and Suicune, two do-nothing dandies as far as offense is concerned. Is that enough to call this a stall? The actual playstyle is still awfully close to Spikes Offense in my book, with a combination of Spikes + Roar Raikou & Mixed Snorlax being the main gameplan (albeit without heal bell support, which I personally don't like very much). Plus two Explosions to punctuate things. It's just that Skarm and Suicune clearly don't contribute to this plan or to any other "side hustle" the team might have, instead shoring up some of the typical defensive shortcomings of this playstyle. Still, I'd be willing to admit a different bucket for teams that play like this one. "Semistall", maybe?

As for the Growth vs. Agipass point that I left unaddressed, I think they play differently enough to be considered separate. Agipass is completely unhinged and swings for the fences from turn 1. Growthpass is just a *little* unhinged and maintains something resembling a defensive structure, so it plays closer to a conventional playstyle.

 

[Envy]

im started to play gsc last month for a teamtournament and this week i ran a team with 4 booms https://pokepast.es/56f874b74c688b3f

how good is this playstyle? it was indeed more fun to play than the other teams i used in other weeks

 

[phosphor]

last edited mar 07 2025

https://pastebin.com/TzmqxzfK

 

[cherryb0ng]

I think that HP Ghost forry is really cool and I'd have liked to explore it more myself before becoming inactive. There might be a good possibility that if you run into Umbreon stall you could easily just bring in your own Forretress again,. It seems like you have it figured out though, especially with the Hypno into lax sequence.

Speaking of stall and the benefits of fruits and vegetables, this quora post states that the Jackfruit can assist in forestalling cancer growth https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-good-impacts-of-eating-jackfruit

I don't know how to close out this post so I just want to remind people that vegetables are good for you.

 

[vikingsfan346]

I just want say that Typhlosion can do things. I've been having some fun on ladder running an all-out offense team with a Typhlosion/Dragonite core, and it's been a lot of fun. Typhlosion has very few truly safe switch-ins, especially with Spikes down, and it seems to be especially threatening to stall teams. I feel like it may be an underexplored threat.

The set is:
-Fire Blast
-Dynamic Punch
-Earthquake
-Thunder Punch/Hidden Power Grass

Speed ties Zapdos and is usually not 2hko'd by Thunder, while Fire Blast 3hko's in return. Earthquake is a clean 3hko on Raikou.

With Spikes down, even Snorlax is not a great switch-in; Snorlax takes ~27% from Fire Blast on the switch, and then is in huge trouble if the follow-up DynamicPunch hits. Snorlax can be 3hko'd by Fire Blast - Dpunch -Dpunch, or even Fire Blast - Dpunch - Fire Blast if it hits itself in confusion.

Skarm and Forry are Ohko'd by Fire Blast, Eggy can be.

Even Starmie takes ~44% from Thunder punch, could get hit by Dpunch on the switch-in, etc. Suicune is probably the most solid switch-in, but even that is never completely safe with the threat of Dynamic Punch confusions. Plus, Suicune seems to have fallen out of the meta at the moment.

Typhlosion is frail, but it usually has just enough bulk to live one hit. It can live one Starmie/Suicune Surf, one Snorlax Earthquake, etc., and with its nice speed and power, that's often all it really needs.

 

[bdt2002]

Hello again, GSC community. I've been trying to brainstorm more team ideas to try out on low ladder recently whenever I have the chance to find some games on Showdown, and I wanted your guys's more educated input on some things. Mainly, what's your take on Sunny Day teams in the current metagame? To me they seem very specific, but I've heard a couple sources say it's, and I quote, "the best of the three weathers" in this metagame. I'm not sure if I'd go that far- in fact, I think Sandstorm stall has an argument to be made that it's underrated- but I feel like there could be some exploration to be had on certain offenses and balances. Here's a few sample sets I cooked up that exist as proof that I should not be allowed in the kitchen:


Typhlosion @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 6 HP / 28 Atk / 28 Def
- Sunny Day
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Dynamic Punch / Thunder Punch

Unfortunately Typhlosion can't learn SolarBeam, but even if it could I feel like HP Grass might still be better in most situations where you want to click it against a defensive check. Sunny Day Typhlosion interests me compared to other Sunny Day users because of its typing and stats. On the surface, this set takes Entei's pure Fire typing and combines it with the special attacking focus of Charizard, Moltres, and Houndoom. I like this more because Entei just doesn't hit hard enough most of the time, but I also like only having a 2x Rock weakness and neutralities to Electric and Fighting, as well as an Ice resist for good measure. Maybe this could be some kind of cleaner on a Spikes Offense team paired with something like Thief Nidoking/Gengar + a Water resist, since most of the Ground and Rock Pokémon aren't going to want to be on the receiving end of either of Typhloison's coverage moves with Spikes down. This definitely wouldn't be a set for every kind of team, though, as it's still defensively checked by the Legendary Electrics (particularly Raikou) pretty nicely especially if Sun isn't up as well as other naturally specially bulky Pokémon fairly easily.


Donphan @ Leftovers / Miracle Berry
Ability: No Ability
- Sunny Day
- Earthquake
- Rapid Spin / Rest
- Rest / Sleep Talk (edit: Roar could be used in this slot too maybe)

Here's a neat piece of role compression that might be able to fill a utility role for a bulkier Sunny Day core. Donphan's always had some slight advantages and disadvantages over fellow Ground-Type Rapid Spin user Golem, but Donphan's pure Ground typing gives me intrigue as a possible support-based Sunny Day user. Other Sunny Day Pokémon tend to have more offensive threat without needing as much support as this, but here's the catch. What looks like a seemingly random selection of moves is actually an attempt to create a rare instance of a weather setting RestTalk pivot that would rather be able to set Sunny Day multiple times during a game as opposed to the usual plan of "I'm going to set up Sun for myself to attack but be at the mercy of my limited defensive advantages". Like I said, this is the kind of thing why I wouldn't let me cook in the kitchen. Maybe it could be used alongside specific teammates like Growth + Morning Sun Espeon or Light Screen + Soft-Boiled Blissey...? Yeah, who am I kidding, there's no way this is going to work.

 

[Sunlight Laughs]

Gscpl is over

Sample teams from me . Both have been thoroughly ladder and tour tested

Enjoy! Remember you can offer ties with /offertie in case

https://pokepast.es/2710f81339178f79

https://pokepast.es/3ca9253f94362f1a

 

[aminita]

Can we have another look at swagger and cray in this tier please?

Both are moves that have 0 functionality outside of confusion. They only exist to mess with the RNG that confusion creates.

Do they have healthy applications? Not that I've seen. Cray trap missy is not a positive part of the tier and swagger's only usage seems to be making the ladder experience worse by making you flip coin after coin to see if zapdos will cheese through a supposed check.

While these moves can sometimes be potent, I would not call either move good or viable. However I do not believe that viability should be strongly considered when the argument against the strategy is focused purely on RNG. and yes. this means i'd want to ban supersonic too.

These moves fundamentally are 100% luck based. I see no value they add to the tier, only serving to take the game out of the players hands as much as possible in the cases that they do show up.

As they have no functionality outside of confusion, there is no collateral damage from removing these moves from our tier. I can only see upsides from these moves being banned. It will make the ladder healthier and improve the new player experience.

 

[xFactorymade]

I second Aminita's post. There seem to be very few who consider cray or swagger to be respectable strategies. These strategies almost solely exist for people to troll or attempt to cheese wins from opponents above their skill level. The only notable things these strategies appear to be achieving are making people miserable and turning players away from an already struggling ladder scene (which we heavily depend on to bring in and train up new competitors btw). Bring in a public poll or voting system so that this issue can be put to bed, be it by outing a vocal minority, or making the voice of the majority heard.

Let's not muddy the waters on this issue and split community opinions in the process though. If we are going to address multiple issues at the same time, they should be polled/voted on seperately.

 

[Tricknology]

As a new GSC OU player, Swagger and Confuse Ray made the game frustrating to play. Losing to confusion RNG feels awful—it’s just coin flips deciding games. These moves add nothing of value and only take control away from the player.

Because of this, I’ve stopped laddering and now only play friendlies, where the game feels much more competitive and enjoyable. Since these moves serve no purpose outside of confusion, banning them would only improve the meta.

 

[sableorderly]

I agree with Aminita's post; particularly the part that banning of moves like swagger, cray, etc, will make ladder healthier and improve the new player experience. GSC already struggles to bring in new players because of the slower pace, and slot machine moves like these being legal is equivalent to brand suicide. It will only serve to alienate potential new players who want to give GSC a try by hopping on ladder and playing some low ranked matches. Frankly speaking, the logic that confusion strategies need to see success in high level play to warrant a ban is a complete joke, and is coincidentally a sentiment shared by many top players who don't even bother with ladder in the first place. Like I'm sorry, but you don't get to complain about ladder quality being dogshit and also be anti swagger ban

 

[melancholy0]

I know this discussion has been had before on discord, but I think it mostly comes down to a difference in philosophy: i.e. something should be banned if it is actively broken and warping the tier (which confusion is not) vs something is ok to be banned if it adds nothing to the tier.

I don't really expect to change anyones mind if they have a difference in philosophy - I personally prefer a minimal banlist of things that are broken, but I can see where others are coming from. However I think there are a couple arguments about laddering specifically that might have some impact:
1. Swagger/cray is not the only cheese on ladder that is unfun to play for a new player - borderline stuff like the charizard guy or the screens + flash + drumpass to dugtrio are all annoying to play against and I think the cheese players would just adapt to a new, legal cheese.

Additionally "fair" teams like bpass, tenta/laxless stall, and mlook all have little to no chance of being banned and are annoying for new players to queue into. So I'm not sure how much banning confusion moves would move the needle, they would just be replaced with something new.

2. For swagger specifically, based on usage stats it seems to be on the decline - in Jan and Feb 2025 its stuck in other moves at <5% usage om Zapdos. That said in Dec 2024 confusion moves are both present (pictured below). If anyone wants to dig into it more, that would be appreciated, but if the worst offenders ladders less (cuzman) surely it doesnt need to be banned as it nears 0 usage?


I think based on the above and the mixed reviews in the survey a wait and see approach should be taken (like lets wait for may or july usage stats to see if its still as prevalent).

 

[xFactorymade]

1. Swagger/cray is not the only cheese on ladder that is unfun to play for a new player - borderline stuff like the charizard guy or the screens + flash + drumpass to dugtrio are all annoying to play against and I think the cheese players would just adapt to a new, legal cheese.

Additionally "fair" teams like bpass, tenta/laxless stall, and mlook all have little to no chance of being banned and are annoying for new players to queue into. So I'm not sure how much banning confusion moves would move the needle, they would just be replaced with something new.

2. For swagger specifically, based on usage stats it seems to be on the decline - in Jan and Feb 2025 its stuck in other moves at <5% usage om Zapdos. That said in Dec 2024 confusion moves are both present (pictured below). If anyone wants to dig into it more, that would be appreciated, but if the worst offenders ladders less (cuzman) surely it doesnt need to be banned as it nears 0 usage?


I think based on the above and the mixed reviews in the survey a wait and see approach should be taken (like lets wait for may or july usage stats to see if its still as prevalent).

So to address the first point, part of the issue with swagger specifically is that, unlike many other forms of cheese, it is almost impossible to develop a clear gameplan, or bring an appropriate team, to reliably nullify the strategy. By virtue of the move being so widespread, the majority of the tier's speedsters have access to this move, often in tandem with substitute. This effectively means that swagger users can almost always guarantee that you will have to engage with the strategy, effectively leaving the results of the match in the hands of chance. This can also be done with minimal investment, as it only requires one moveslot on pokemon you are fairly likely to commonly run rather than requiring you to commit an entire moveset and/or teamslot.

As for the second point, the usage rate shouldn't be an enormous factor in determining if something is healthy for the tier or not. If we had 50 unhealthy strategies that each had a 1% usage rate, the tier would be a complete joke. A strategy is as unhealthy at 1% usage as it is at 20% usage and leaving such strategies around to pile up and make the tier less enjoyable isn't ideal.

I pretty strongly believe that the ruleset and banlist should morph to fit the desired experience of those actively engaging with the tier. There's definitely some nuance to this, as sometimes players don't consider or appreciate the full ramifications of certain changes (e.g. the ban Snorlax argument). However, in this case, I think you'd be hard pressed to show that the tier would be taking a significant loss here. With that being said, I can't see any harm in collecting information on how people feel about certain controversial elements of the tier, especially those that are not foundational to the metagame as a whole.

 

[aminita]

I know this discussion has been had before on discord, but I think it mostly comes down to a difference in philosophy: i.e. something should be banned if it is actively broken and warping the tier (which confusion is not) vs something is ok to be banned if it adds nothing to the tier.

I don't really expect to change anyones mind if they have a difference in philosophy - I personally prefer a minimal banlist of things that are broken, but I can see where others are coming from. However I think there are a couple arguments about laddering specifically that might have some impact:
1. Swagger/cray is not the only cheese on ladder that is unfun to play for a new player - borderline stuff like the charizard guy or the screens + flash + drumpass to dugtrio are all annoying to play against and I think the cheese players would just adapt to a new, legal cheese.

Additionally "fair" teams like bpass, tenta/laxless stall, and mlook all have little to no chance of being banned and are annoying for new players to queue into. So I'm not sure how much banning confusion moves would move the needle, they would just be replaced with something new.

2. For swagger specifically, based on usage stats it seems to be on the decline - in Jan and Feb 2025 its stuck in other moves at <5% usage om Zapdos. That said in Dec 2024 confusion moves are both present (pictured below). If anyone wants to dig into it more, that would be appreciated, but if the worst offenders ladders less (cuzman) surely it doesnt need to be banned as it nears 0 usage?


I think based on the above and the mixed reviews in the survey a wait and see approach should be taken (like lets wait for may or july usage stats to see if its still as prevalent).

I appreciate someone with a differing view chipping in.
You make some valid points, but I'd like to quickly clarify 2 things.

1. The argument I was trying to make is not that swagger/cray should be axed because they do nothing. It is that confusion moves do nothing positive or meaningful- just the flip, while also actively lowering the skill expression of the games where they do show up through their ability to add high amounts RNG.
   
   
2. I agree that banning these elements is not going to magicially solve the ladder problems we have, but that is not the point. It is moreso a QOL change that will improve the ladder, and I still think that's a worthy goal to seek. As for other issues such as flash, sand attack or mlook, I hope we can have a discussion on their place in the tier too. I think for a new player or anyone trying to ladder, there is a clear distinction between running into laxless stall in which they can attempt to outplay and running into swagger which has no real counterplay and is just coinflipping.

Edit: I think the issue is moreso does policy framework support removing this toxic but still not prolific (tour wise) element. I sure hope so!

 

[bdt2002]

It’s been roughly nine months since my last post here where I foolishly tried to build some Sun sets and act like I knew what I was talking about. All jokes aside, there’s been a certain Pokémon in this metagame on my mind and I’m very interested to hear what the more experienced player base thinks of its role in the current metagame.



For quite some time now, Gengar has been one of, if not the face of modern “Explosion Offense” teams in GSC OU. Generally seen by most players as the premier archetype in the format at this time, offensive teams have consistently demonstrated matchup flexibility and positive results on the ladder and in high-level tournament play over the past couple of years. As GSC has struggled to bring in new players, though, I recently found myself thinking about the state of the metagame and I slowly started to realize something. Is… is Gengar actually kind of insane? Dare I say, is Gengar holding the metagame back more than it’s helping?

At first glance, Gengar does not seem to be problematic, let alone broken. It’s pretty frail, all things considered, relying a lot on its immunities to Normal and Fighting to compensate for its low physical bulk and not having too much in the way of relevant resistances either. Base 130 Special Attack and base 110 Speed are solid, especially by GSC standards, but it famously doesn’t have specially attacking STAB and can sometimes struggle to do as much damage on its own as it would like to against a metagame influenced by the older stat experience mechanics and the near-omnipresence of Leftovers, meaning everything is a lot more bulky than in later generations with EV limits and natures. That base 110 Speed in tandem with GSC mechanics means it’s still consistently out-sped and can be forced out by faster OU Pokémon, namely Raikou, Starmie, Jolteon, and Alakazam. Finally, unlike its ADV iteration, it is still vulnerable to Spikes in this generation, and starting in GSC Gengar’s whole evolution line gained a significant, albeit indirect nerf with the introduction of the Dark-Type and specifically the move Pursuit, a move commonly wielded by one of Gengar’s more consistent answers in Tyranitar and has influenced some Gengar players to replace the more standardized Hypnosis with the famously strong but unreliable DynamicPunch on common offensive sets.

With all of these points going against Gengar in addition to some of the indirect nerfs it received during the generational transition from RBY, it makes sense that it took some time for Gengar to be as acknowledged and appreciated in GSC as it has become. Over time, however, the GSC OU metagame would shift many times, favoring different team archetypes and generally taking on a more offensive style as opposed to the “All Stall”, Snorlax-centric reputation GSC is sometimes criticized by lesser experienced players for having. The Snorlax part of that distinction remains true, but the adjusting metagame would only favor Gengar more and more over time. The move Spikes, and by extension the only way of removing them being the weak, Normal-Type Rapid Spin, would both rise significantly in usage as Spikes were able to assist in the ongoing effort of wearing down offensive teams’ most reliable answers. Not only was Gengar an excellent abuser of Spikes as a special sweeper with strong type coverage, but as one of only two fully evolved Ghost-Types in GSC alongside fellow OU Ghost-Type Misdreavus, the two of them could utilize their Normal-Type immunity to function as the first “spinblockers” in standard play, allowing their team to more easily preserve their Spikes after they had been set up. That Normal-Type immunity also gave them an incredibly valuable role as being the best answers to another one of GSC’s most prominent moves, Explosion (and by extension, Snorlax’s STAB Self-Destruct), and since Gengar itself also learned Explosion and could use it to great success against special walls and even certain offensive threats like the oppressive Spikes-immune Zapdos, which it conveniently out-sped, Gengar became arguably the most effective user and blocker of the move in one team slot, synergizing incredibly well with other Pokémon on offensive teams that would rise in usage over time such as Nidoking and eventual OU star Jynx among others.

In the modern day, Gengar continues to be one of, if not the face of offensive teams in the metagame, demonstrating the archetype’s evolution and matchup flexibility in a generation that turned 25 years old back in November of 2024. Crazy stuff, I know. As I hinted at earlier on, though, I can’t help but wonder what the more experienced player base thinks of Gengar’s influence in GSC OU and, if necessary, any action should be taken against it to create a more stable, inviting environment for new players.

The thing that sets Gengar apart from other Pokémon I would call problematic is that Gengar is almost never going to threaten to sweep entire teams on its own with overpowered stats and mechanics. Gengar’s approach to controversy is much more subtle, instead focused on what it’s been able to do for so long with so little counterplay available to stop it. Right away Gengar’s infamous reliance on inaccurate and/or RNG-centric moves sticks out to me- in GSC this usually comes in the form of the already unreliable Hypnosis causing the controversial Sleep status (though to be fair, sleep doesn’t tend to be as big of an issue here thanks to the nerfs from RBY and the addition of RestTalk to the game) and the even less reliable DynamicPunch causing guaranteed confusion while already being a move that Gengar might use for its type coverage. It’s no DPP Machamp with No Guard, but the problem with Gengar’s version of the move is that not only do you not know if the opponent’s Gengar is running it until they decide to quite literally flip a coin upon revealing the move, but there’s no strong enough, “healthier” alternative Gengar would rather be running because I can tell you right now this thing isn’t running Hidden Power Fighting anytime soon. As much as people hated DPP Machamp, at least you knew it was coming because it had No Guard and didn’t require a more accurate alternative for Machamp to do its job.

Both of these moves hitting or missing can completely change the outcome of a serious game, and both sleep and confusion have extra RNG effects associated with them that can be fun to use but definitely aren’t fun to play against. Those are the easy ones, but Gengar still has access to other lesser seen RNG effects too, including but not limited to the 100% accurate Confuse Ray, freaking ZAP CANNON because DynamicPunch just wasn’t enough, and the 10% status rolls on the elemental punches, most notably Ice Punch’s 10% freeze chance on another move Gengar already loves for its coverage. Are you noticing a pattern yet? Gengar is going to assist its offensive teammates with RNG whether you like it or not, and those mechanics can potentially screw over any prepared attempts at counterplay you might have brought to a ladder game or to a tournament set alike. Heaven forbid Gengar lands a clutch critical hit off of a 6.25% chance per turn and makes things even worse on top of all of that.

I could go on and on about how many little interactions Gengar has with other Pokémon in this tier. I know for a fact there’s at least two other Gengar sets I didn’t write about here. But this post is already one of the longest I’ve written by a long shot, so I’m going to try and wrap things up here. What do you guys think of Gengar in GSC OU? Do you think it’s fair and balanced? Do you think it’s problematic? Is there anything I might be forgetting about? I really want people to keep being able to play Past Gens of OU together, and for the purposes of this post I want to try and encourage anything that may help increase GSC’s player count with some degree of consistency both for the ladder and for tournament play. As I’ve gotten back into Past Gens posting sporadically across 2025 I’ve enjoyed hopping from generation to generation, and while I might not be very good at this game, like, at all, GSC is still one of my top favorite generations to come back to and it never hurts to learn what people think of the metagame at large so I can improve as a player.

 

[dangerk1d]

I think you're spot on with gengar's good attributes. I'd also add that walling monolax is crucial as well, and the toxic immunity can be very good on certain team structures. It definitely has an enormous impact on the metagame and there's a lot of potential unpredictability in facing it due to its set variety.

But I don't think it's problematic. The hax situations you mentioned are definitely relevant, but moreso because they encourage the other player not to opt into them. Most players don't throw suittar into gengar right away because they know they'll be entering a crapshoot, and most lax's these days are eq, partly for golem/tar but also to not give gar room to freeze fish you (as well as pressure it to boom earlier and more predictably). It's hax you can choose to avoid while still playing well/having a good team. Outside of tar, gengar's dpunch is pretty weak and difficult to bs through things with, and while hypnosis can be annoying because of unpredictability/vulnerable absorbers, it doesn't range on the broken side imo.

In short, gengar is a variance machine on paper, but in practice the metagame has adapted to make those high variance situations not crop up very often.

 

[FuzyMC]

I found Pokémon showdown in 2017 and I've been playing exclusively GSC since that time, totaling probably 10,000 games over multiple accounts. I really have a crazy amount of experience in GSC. I have been #1 on the ladder a couple times, and was constantly in the top 10 when I played more seriously a couple years ago. I haven't been as active the last couple years, and now i mostly try fun things and play less seriously, but i do have sound advice on this topic.

The truth is, the most powerful and effective pokemon/moveset/ team core is not a pokemon or moveset, its outplaying your opponent.
the reason GSC has seen a resurgence of offensive teams over the years is because offensive teams thrive on out-predicting and outplaying your opponent. Stall teams don't play to win, they play to not lose, which means they offer little in the way of piloting, and are too linear to change the outcome of a battle vs a bad matchup. This is also why there are so many different strategies that can be used in offense. GSC is really simple. Playing it properly is more complicated.
A bad team played well will always beat a good team played badly. Even at high level play, the deciding factor really isn't that your team has perfect coverage, or rounded defense. its not that you have counters to machamp, or curselax, or jynx or something. its not that you have a "proper" team. The deciding factor in 99% of games, is simply outplaying your opponent. GSC is compared to a game of chess, and its for exactly that reason.

There is a reason that high level players can sometimes lose to total noobs. A complete noob at the game will break your predictions and decision making, because they dont understand what theyre supposed to be doing, which makes predictions impossible. A total noob might keep a cloyster in against zapdos, not because theyre out-predicting you, but because they genuinely don't realize that they're supposed to switch out cloyster against electric types.
so you make a prediction because you expect your opponent to switch out his cloyster for something else. You switch out your zapdos to something, and get poisoned, exploded on, or ko'd by a surf or ice beam or something. Your opponent won because didn't play by the rules- he didn't switch his cloyster out against your t-bolt zapdos- which broke your entire decision making, and re-wrote the rules off battle, mid-game. THIS IS WHAT OFFENSIVE TEAMS ENABLE YOU TO DO.

The entire meta of non-stall GSC revolves around predictions and decision-making. Decisions and predictions ARE the meta. you can slap together a team really of anything you want and if you pilot it correctly you can win. Quadruple-switching, early explosions, and surprise movesets win games more than anything else. Its why GSC is compared to a game of chess. thinking ahead multiple turns, figuring out what you're opponent is trying to do and exploiting it is what separates good players from bad.

The reason people are using new movesets on new offensive teams is for exactly this reason. Real offense will enable you to pilot your team in a way that you can outplay or outpredict your opponent.

Dont fall into the trap of thinking
"this moveset can KO snorlax and still have coverage against other switch ins, so i'll build my team around it"

instead, think:
"this moveset can chip and pressure my opponent into making easily predictable moves, so when he switches i can explode my eggy and by the time he figures out what I'm trying to do, its too late and his walls are removed"
(whether you're setting up for a late-game setup sweeper or you're trying to remove walls so zapdos can clean-up, it still applies)

THIS IS WHY JYNX IS SO GOOD.
lets breakdown jynx's common set. psychic, ice beam, substitute, lovely kiss.

if you're expecting a lovely kiss so you switch to a rest talker, but jynx uses substitute instead, now jynx gets a free turn to fish for a freeze with ice beam.
but if you stay in instead of switching, and jynx uses lovely kiss, now you're instantly down a pokemon.

The presence of Jynx on the field instantly creates an environment where linear play is punished, and dynamic play is rewarded.

The same can be said about offense in general, which is why the meta has been shifting away from stall for so long. The truth is, stall is brain-rot, and using stall for too long will ruin your ability to play the game.

Conversely, using pure offense can be very unforgiving. Mistakes are not tolerated and will cost you the game. You must play perfectly at all times. Eventually, this makes you a MUCH better GSC player than someone that uses stall, because you've been playing in a way that punishes your mistakes, and demands perfect input with next-level cognitive ability.

Jynx is good, but predictions are better :)

edit: overall, playing offense will make you a better GSC player. but, a really good way to quickly gain skill is by using a restless team.
make a new account, and put together a team with no rest or health recovery (other than lefties) this will force you to learn to play very well and with minimal mistakes. you'll get better at making good predictions and learning how to get pokemon in/out while minimizing damage. it is a very good way of gaining skill and i encourage everyone to try it.