Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[Moyashi]

I don't want to sound rude but to me your post seems more like you just want Ogerpon gone because it is good against your favourite playstyle without actually making a valid point as to why it should be banned.

This is a rather disingenuous retort given no one mentioned balance/stall being a "favorite" playstyle of theirs. Just the negative influence OgerponW has vs these styles. Teams are already strapped for slots trying to check the wide variety of big threats as is, and Ogerpon itself is a part of that group of threats, constraining building quite heavily. Either running niche tera types that are worse vs other big threats, or running mons that are worse vs other big threats and thus compromise some element of your teambuilding.

Of course passive teams filled with ground and water types are bound to have a hard time against Ogerpon-W. Pokemon that makes some playstyles miserable have existed for a long time and having blanket checks for offense and HO in the name of Zamazenta and Kingambit is apparently fine so I don't see how Ogerpon being good but not uncounterable as you said makes it broken. Ursaluna also destroys most stalls and no one would advocate for a ban for the reason that it makes an entire playstyle suffer.

This is a really bad argument, and ignores the issue. Also pokemon like Ursaluna still has counterplay found on stall, albeit shaky, and is a very nuanced and flawed pokemon that, while good, is kept in line by those flaws. Wellspring meanwhile is highly splashable and consistent, and heavily constrains the builder. It's not just stall or balance. Even BO needs to build with it in mind needing two checks minimum. It rips up defensive cores which also enables its own teammates as a result. Also please cut it out with Kingambit already. Anytime something comes up for discussion on being broken or potentially broken, there's always at least one or two "but Kingambit survived so this is fine" attitudes.

Concerning Ogerpon, the classic balances nowadays often have Dragapult with wisp/t-wave to heavily cripple Ogerpon. It also has 4MSS so you won't ever find an Ogerpon that runs Trailblaze, Knock Off, Play Rough, Low Kick, Encore, Power Whip, Ivy Cudgel and Swords Dance in a single set. Yes it is strong but it struggles against a lot of things depending on the moves it chooses. The fact that it can't use any item means that it is very weak to hazards, in particular T-Spikes so you could always use them on Glowking. Also, no matter what moves it run, it will always struggle against bulky grass types so you could either use that or use Tera Grass.

Weird how you doubled down on the 4MSS argument despite what Ian said which quite solidly defeats it. Ogerpon is hugely threatening to these slower teams because of its moveset diversity. Try scouting and you'll risk either a knock off, making your check super vulnerable to hazards, you risk giving Ogerpon an SD and then that check just dropping because so little defensively can eat a +2 Ivy Cudgel/Power Whip without being either a niche pokemon or running a bad tera type on a good pokemon. You're also ignoring how polarizing the different sets are. So much of counterplay just loses if it runs Play Rough, and the stuff that beats Play Rough sets (which isn't much) loses to other variants. There is nowhere near enough overlap in the builder defensively speaking. Also for Bulky grasses? The only good one is Bulky Rilla, which unboosted is weak as shit and can just die to a +2 Power Whip with a spike up (Rilla's own terrain literally helping Ogerpon kill it lol irony).

Also, Ogerpon-W making Alomomola players having to think instead of spamming Scald/Flip Turn is a good thing for the tier. Having a good water immunity that can be run on offense (so not Clodsire) is a huge deal for a lot of non passive teams that would otherwise have almost impossible match ups against rain or pokemon like Walking Wake. (Yes Ogerpon gets destroyed by DM but it can at least force some kind of mind game if you have a fairy on your team).

Try making a noban argument of a balance breaker without complaining about balance pokemon challenge (impossible).

How is it good? There are many perfectly healthy stops and punishes to Mola that don't involve a broken pokemon. And yeah it's got cool defensive utility for offense. Doesn't matter though if what it does to the metagame isn't healthy overall, and it's not. It's one of many difficult to handle threats, and it's, imo, at or near the top of that list right now.

I'll just conclude by saying that not having Ferrothorn and Tangrowth sucks but there are still a lot of options to easily deal with Ogerpon for non offensive team and it's just up to players to try and think a little bit oustide of the box. Without Play Rough, Ogerpon is hard walled by Hydrapple and even with Play Rough it can't even OHKO it at +2 even after rocks so you CAN check its moveset somewhat safely despite what you said.

Lol Ferro is just as abusable by Encore sets. Speaking from experience on that one. And Tangrowth isn't much better. There are not many options to deal with it for non offense, else we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Also unless Hydrapple is super phys invested, +2 Play Rough OHKOs with rocks up. So no it's not much better again, and also it is a niche and difficult to fit mon.

 

[Avira]

Of course passive teams filled with ground and water types are bound to have a hard time against Ogerpon-W. Pokemon that makes some playstyles miserable have existed for a long time and having blanket checks for offense and HO in the name of Zamazenta and Kingambit is apparently fine so I don't see how Ogerpon being good but not uncounterable as you said makes it broken. Ursaluna also destroys most stalls and no one would advocate for a ban for the reason that it makes an entire playstyle suffer.

This is a really bad argument, and ignores the issue. Also pokemon like Ursaluna still has counterplay found on stall, albeit shaky, and is a very nuanced and flawed pokemon that, while good, is kept in line by those flaws. Wellspring meanwhile is highly splashable and consistent, and heavily constrains the builder. It's not just stall or balance. Even BO needs to build with it in mind needing two checks minimum. It rips up defensive cores which also enables its own teammates as a result. Also please cut it out with Kingambit already. Anytime something comes up for discussion on being broken or potentially broken, there's always at least one or two "but Kingambit survived so this is fine" attitudes.

I agree with most of your points, Moyashi, but you misinterpreted that line about Kingambit. What RKOtaku meant that is that if players can use Zamazenta and Kingambit to blanket check offense that there should be something like Ogerpon-Wellspring that can blanket check more passive playstyles, not that since Kingambit wasn't banned, Ogerpon-Wellspring shouldn't be banned either. I don't personally agree with RKOtaku on that point as I believe Ogerpon-Wellspring is better against slower-paced teams than Zamazenta and Kingambit are against offense.

 

[Heatranator]

Either running niche tera types that are worse vs other big threats, or running mons that are worse vs other big threats and thus compromise some element of your teambuilding.

Heavily disagree with this statement. For example, you would most of the time run tera dragon on skarmory even if waterpon was gone. Sure, it is a reason to run it, but not the main reason. So list some mons that run subpar teras that are used to counter waterpon.

This is a really bad argument, and ignores the issue. Also pokemon like Ursaluna still has counterplay found on stall, albeit shaky, and is a very nuanced and flawed pokemon that, while good, is kept in line by those flaws. Wellspring meanwhile is highly splashable and consistent, and heavily constrains the builder. It's not just stall or balance. Even BO needs to build with it in mind needing two checks minimum. It rips up defensive cores which also enables its own teammates as a result. Also please cut it out with Kingambit already. Anytime something comes up for discussion on being broken or potentially broken, there's always at least one or two "but Kingambit survived so this is fine" attitudes.

You do realise that ursaluna literally has like, drifblim which counters it on stall. I don't think that is a very splashable mon. Sure, stall has ways to play around ursaluna, but you have to do so many mental gymnastics and if they have a wish user than it is good night for you. I don't really consider waterpon that much when I'm team building, since on balance and BO, you have at least one fast mon, and that is usually enough to offensively check waterpon. I know that you said don't bring up Kingambit, so let's use a different example, specs kyurem. Sure, HDB Kyurem is more used and has become the preffered set, but hear me out. Wtf besides glowking that is not chipped is defensively answering specs kyurem? I will tell you, nothing. Maybe there is some magical answer that I am not privy to, but what mon is countering it. Compared to it, waterpon has decent answers. You can slap a tera dragon on a bulky mon and call it a day most of the time. Maybe you need one other mon that can counter it, but that's usually your first choice and then the tera dragon is additional counterplay.

Weird how you doubled down on the 4MSS argument despite what Ian said which quite solidly defeats it. Ogerpon is hugely threatening to these slower teams because of its moveset diversity. Try scouting and you'll risk either a knock off, making your check super vulnerable to hazards, you risk giving Ogerpon an SD and then that check just dropping because so little defensively can eat a +2 Ivy Cudgel/Power Whip without being either a niche pokemon or running a bad tera type on a good pokemon. You're also ignoring how polarizing the different sets are. So much of counterplay just loses if it runs Play Rough, and the stuff that beats Play Rough sets (which isn't much) loses to other variants. There is nowhere near enough overlap in the builder defensively speaking. Also for Bulky grasses? The only good one is Bulky Rilla, which unboosted is weak as shit and can just die to a +2 Power Whip with a spike up (Rilla's own terrain literally helping Ogerpon kill it lol irony).

Sure, waterpon can have multiple moves that it can use, but it can't have all of them. At worst, you may have to sack a mon, at best you maybe lose an item. I would say to ko a mon, that's good. Once you figure it has knock off, your dragon can come in to ko it. Once you figure out it has play rough, yeah you may have to do a little dance but you can try to switch in a grass type on an ivy cudgel.

Try making a noban argument of a balance breaker without complaining about balance pokemon challenge (impossible).

How is it good? There are many perfectly healthy stops and punishes to Mola that don't involve a broken pokemon. And yeah it's got cool defensive utility for offense. Doesn't matter though if what it does to the metagame isn't healthy overall, and it's not. It's one of many difficult to handle threats, and it's, imo, at or near the top of that list right now.

I don't honestly agree with the punishing alomomola part they were arguing, so I'm just going to avoid that.

Lol Ferro is just as abusable by Encore sets. Speaking from experience on that one. And Tangrowth isn't much better. There are not many options to deal with it for non offense, else we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Also unless Hydrapple is super phys invested, +2 Play Rough OHKOs with rocks up. So no it's not much better again, and also it is a niche and difficult to fit mon.

I mean, ferro would technically be very good against waterpon.
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Ferrothorn: 129-153 (36.6 - 43.4%) -- 98.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 142-168 (47.1 - 55.8%) -- 77.3% chance to 2HKO
Seriously, you don't even need to id, you just take +2 ivy cudgel well.
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 137-162 (33.9 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 91-108 (30.2 - 35.8%) -- 34.9% chance to 3HKO
Idk, they both do well. Like tangrowth is actually better since it has regen to take advantage of.
Waterpon is difficult to defensively check, yes, that's not the issue people have with the statements about waterpon being broken. The issue is that people don't realise that just because a mon is hard to defensively check, doesn't mean it is hard to offensively check. If we went with that, then crawdaunt should be banned (I know that is a bad arguement, but look at this calc to see what I mean, waterpon has to have super effective stab to get above this calc.)
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tera Dark Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 241-286 (47.8 - 56.7%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO
See what I mean? However, offensively checking waterpon is much easier, it has good, but not spectacular 110 speed, which in this fast paced meta every team non-stall should have something faster. It is relatively weak to priority, which is a statement people give for roaring moon not being broken, so I could also apply this to waterpon. It is very hazard weak, which is not good in this meta as it can't hold HDB. Even still, stall can find ways around waterpon. Slap a tera dragon on a gliscor/mandibuzz and that can be a good measure. Hydrapple is a great mon on stall and that is massive for it. Amoonguss is a mon that can counter waterpon hard, knock off is annoying but is managable. Toxapex can deal with it by using haze. Wo chien can be used to counter it hard. Compared to ursaluna on stall, which is basically use drifblim or lmao just die, waterpon has a lot more counterplay. Sure, waterpon is better against a larger variety of teams, but those teams also have adequate counterplay to waterpon.

If waterpon goes, will I complain? No, it will be one less mon I have to account for and I relish the opportunity to reduce teambuilding strain. However, compared to other threats in the meta, waterpon is like middle of the list for me.

 

[Magcargo]

Is anyone else surprised by how much Primarina has been popping off? I always though it was a bit unfairly overlooked in Gen 8 since it was always seen as "worse Tapu Fini" even though it had some major selling points like a massive Special Attack and Liquid Voice Echoed Voice which it could use to break through more passive playstyles. However this generation, it feels particularly potent, even in spite of losing some of its most useful tools like Scald. With most of our bulky Water checks seeing low usage due to nerfs (Amoonguss, Toxapex) or just flat out not existing (Kartana, Ferrothorn, Tapu Koko), Primarina feels like a surprising difficult Pokemon to take down now, as offensive teams typically aren't packing a mon that can hit it for super effective damage, so it winds up trading favorably against them. Balance teams also tend to struggle against Primarina, since most mons featured on these styles are weak to its STABs (same with most other playstyles for that matter). Its really only Water Absorb Clodsire and Slowking-G that feel like they can stand up to it, and even those mons can struggle with some sets like Psychic Noise or Tera Steel CM. Liquid Voice Psychic Noise is a really cool new tool in Primarina's arsenal, since it can let it bully some mons like Morning Sun Volcarona, Moonlight Clefable, and Alomomola + Bypass Substitutes.

IDK, personally I find it really neat that a mon like Primarina, which has traditionally been overshadowed, is able to thrive this generation; arguably as one of the scarier threats in the tier no less.

 

[Heatranator]

Is anyone else surprised by how much Primarina has been popping off? I always though it was a bit unfairly overlooked in Gen 8 since it was always seen as "worse Tapu Fini" even though it had some major selling points like a massive Special Attack and Liquid Voice Echoed Voice which it could use to break through more passive playstyles. However this generation, it feels particularly potent, even in spite of losing some of its most useful tools like Scald. With most of our bulky Water checks seeing low usage due to nerfs (Amoonguss, Toxapex) or just flat out not existing (Kartana, Ferrothorn, Tapu Koko), Primarina feels like a surprising difficult Pokemon to take down now, as offensive teams typically aren't packing a mon that can hit it for super effective damage, so it winds up trading favorably against them. Balance teams also tend to struggle against Primarina, since most mons featured on these styles are weak to its STABs (same with most other playstyles for that matter). Its really only Water Absorb Clodsire and Slowking-G that feel like they can stand up to it, and even those mons can struggle with some sets like Psychic Noise or Tera Steel CM. Liquid Voice Psychic Noise is a really cool new tool in Primarina's arsenal, since it can let it bully some mons like Morning Sun Volcarona, Moonlight Clefable, and Alomomola + Bypass Substitutes.

IDK, personally I find it really neat that a mon like Primarina, which has traditionally been overshadowed, is able to thrive this generation; arguably as one of the scarier threats in the tier no less.

Honestly, I fell like it is really cool. Early on I did use liquid voice psychic noise, but recently I have went to stored power on calm mind sets in the last slot. It lets you beat other set-up sweepers that try to boost their special defense, such as opposing primarina and volcarona. And then you get to +6 and decimate everything with your natural bulk + draining kiss recovery.
Very cool mon and I think it is A+ rank or even S- even, I am willing to fight people on that. Every team that I have included in it has been amazing, and its the only truly bulky fairy in the tier (clefable has good bulk but not enough some times especially on the special side), which is another point in its favor.

 

[Anchor9]

Is anyone else surprised by how much Primarina has been popping off? I always though it was a bit unfairly overlooked in Gen 8 since it was always seen as "worse Tapu Fini" even though it had some major selling points like a massive Special Attack and Liquid Voice Echoed Voice which it could use to break through more passive playstyles. However this generation, it feels particularly potent, even in spite of losing some of its most useful tools like Scald. With most of our bulky Water checks seeing low usage due to nerfs (Amoonguss, Toxapex) or just flat out not existing (Kartana, Ferrothorn, Tapu Koko), Primarina feels like a surprising difficult Pokemon to take down now, as offensive teams typically aren't packing a mon that can hit it for super effective damage, so it winds up trading favorably against them. Balance teams also tend to struggle against Primarina, since most mons featured on these styles are weak to its STABs (same with most other playstyles for that matter). Its really only Water Absorb Clodsire and Slowking-G that feel like they can stand up to it, and even those mons can struggle with some sets like Psychic Noise or Tera Steel CM. Liquid Voice Psychic Noise is a really cool new tool in Primarina's arsenal, since it can let it bully some mons like Morning Sun Volcarona, Moonlight Clefable, and Alomomola + Bypass Substitutes.

IDK, personally I find it really neat that a mon like Primarina, which has traditionally been overshadowed, is able to thrive this generation; arguably as one of the scarier threats in the tier no less.

Ogerpon-W also has a good matchup into it.

Primarina is a really good Mon though, being a great answer to non-Sun Gouging Fire for Balance teams and the Assault Vest set does pretty well into Boots Kyurem.

 

[Heatranator]

Ogerpon-W also has a good matchup into it.

Primarina is a really good Mon though, being a great answer to non-Sun Gouging Fire for Balance teams and the Assault Vest set does pretty well into Boots Kyurem.

252 SpA Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Primarina: 134-162 (41.7 - 50.4%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Uhh, the standard set isn't really. Maybe with more bulk it can but then it would be giving up on speed investment or firepower, as even moonblast doesn't even have a 100% chance to ko kyurem from full. With even one layer of spikes, it is a 90% chance to 2HKO.

 

[Finchinator]

Is anyone else surprised by how much Primarina has been popping off? I always though it was a bit unfairly overlooked in Gen 8 since it was always seen as "worse Tapu Fini" even though it had some major selling points like a massive Special Attack and Liquid Voice Echoed Voice which it could use to break through more passive playstyles. However this generation, it feels particularly potent, even in spite of losing some of its most useful tools like Scald. With most of our bulky Water checks seeing low usage due to nerfs (Amoonguss, Toxapex) or just flat out not existing (Kartana, Ferrothorn, Tapu Koko), Primarina feels like a surprising difficult Pokemon to take down now, as offensive teams typically aren't packing a mon that can hit it for super effective damage, so it winds up trading favorably against them. Balance teams also tend to struggle against Primarina, since most mons featured on these styles are weak to its STABs (same with most other playstyles for that matter). Its really only Water Absorb Clodsire and Slowking-G that feel like they can stand up to it, and even those mons can struggle with some sets like Psychic Noise or Tera Steel CM. Liquid Voice Psychic Noise is a really cool new tool in Primarina's arsenal, since it can let it bully some mons like Morning Sun Volcarona, Moonlight Clefable, and Alomomola + Bypass Substitutes.

IDK, personally I find it really neat that a mon like Primarina, which has traditionally been overshadowed, is able to thrive this generation; arguably as one of the scarier threats in the tier no less.

Encore Prima with 200 speed (being paired with Chilly Reception GKing especially) is superb. You can force so many awkward switches and positions. Specifically I use these two with Flip Turn Primarina and a breaker — allows for a ton of openings on balance or bulky offense, which is very hard to be consistent with if you don’t make specific considerations like this.

CM sets are good with Tera Steel, too.

 

[Avira]

I believe Primarina would be better than Tapu Fini this gen even if the Tapus were playable in SV. Psychic Noise for denying recovery and Encore in this offense-heavy tier along with Flip Turn as follow-up to those moves are big upsides it has over Tapu Fini in spite of its lower bulk. Primarina's greater offensive potential is also a selling point in a meta where power means more than ever due to how much bulkier even the offensive mons are.

 

[FayaWizard]

I believe Primarina would be better than Tapu Fini this gen even if the Tapus were playable in SV. Psychic Noise for denying recovery and Encore in this offense-heavy tier along with Flip Turn as follow-up to those moves are big upsides it has over Tapu Fini in spite of its lower bulk. Primarina's greater offensive potential is also a selling point in a meta where power means more than ever due to how much bulkier even the offensive mons are.

Counterpoint: Misty Terrain is REALLY good, heavily limiting status spreaders like Gliscor and Cinderace while enabling sweepers to setup without fear of being burned/toxiced/paralyzed. You also can halve dragon attacks, affecting most of the dragons in the tier (though they could also benefit from the weakening of opposing super effective attacks).

 

[Heatranator]

I believe Primarina would be better than Tapu Fini this gen even if the Tapus were playable in SV. Psychic Noise for denying recovery and Encore in this offense-heavy tier along with Flip Turn as follow-up to those moves are big upsides it has over Tapu Fini in spite of its lower bulk. Primarina's greater offensive potential is also a selling point in a meta where power means more than ever due to how much bulkier even the offensive mons are.

I would say that they could be on par with each other, and whether or not fini kept defog, which I doubt it would. If it did have defog then it would be better.
Misty terrain limiting status and halfing dragon moves is big, though of course dragons would be worse with 3 great fairies (and tapu bulu) in the meta. Fini's greater bulk is definitely good, especially on the physical side which is what is primarina's biggest struggle though it definitely doesn't have bad physical bulk.
Meanwhile, primarina has higher sp.attack and has flip turn for pivoting, while psychic noise can prevent recovery. Encore is also nice, though prim does have a bit of 4mss so fitting it can be hard.
I think they could both co-exist with each other and both be OU. On slower teams, tapu fini most likely would be better due to status avoidance and better bulk. On faster paced teams, primarina's higher damage output and flip turn is better.
Also, remember when people used scald on tapu fini? The mon that set terrain that negated status procs? Thus it would mean only flying types would get scald burns?
Good times.

 

[Avira]

I would say that they could be on par with each other, and whether or not fini kept defog, which I doubt it would. If it did have defog then it would be better.

Gholdengo is an OU staple in Gen 9, you know... Fini would not be a good removal option in Gen 9 if it existed.

 

[Heatranator]

Gholdengo is an OU staple in Gen 9, you know... Fini would not be a good removal option in Gen 9 if it existed.

I mean, fini is neutral to steel and has massive special bulk, so it could work.
0 SpA Tapu Fini Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 102-120 (26.9 - 31.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 160-189 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You would likely have to invest in special bulk, but compared to corv who can do a whole pile of nothing to ghold, yeah this is leagues better.
Plus, it is a water type and most spike setters are ground types, and skarm has bad sp.defense so it could be good.
But I doubt they would let it keep defog.

 

[Moyashi]

You do realise that ursaluna literally has like, drifblim which counters it on stall. I don't think that is a very splashable mon. Sure, stall has ways to play around ursaluna, but you have to do so many mental gymnastics and if they have a wish user than it is good night for you. I don't really consider waterpon that much when I'm team building, since on balance and BO, you have at least one fast mon, and that is usually enough to offensively check waterpon. I know that you said don't bring up Kingambit, so let's use a different example, specs kyurem. Sure, HDB Kyurem is more used and has become the preffered set, but hear me out. Wtf besides glowking that is not chipped is defensively answering specs kyurem? I will tell you, nothing. Maybe there is some magical answer that I am not privy to, but what mon is countering it. Compared to it, waterpon has decent answers. You can slap a tera dragon on a bulky mon and call it a day most of the time. Maybe you need one other mon that can counter it, but that's usually your first choice and then the tera dragon is additional counterplay.

I mean you're ignoring the possibility of tera ghost on any physical wall if you really want security. But also it's possible with tactics like fast Corv/Skarm with ID BP to cover for SD Luna. Regarding your remark about BO/Balance, running a single fast pokemon to offensively check it is nowhere near enough. Not at a high level anyways. As for Specs Kyurem I'm not going to argue much against it simply because I don't think its presence is desirable long term either, but also because one man that is questionable avoided a ban doesn't mean something else questionable isn't banworthy. You're also oversimplifying it. If your Tera Dragon mon isn't bulky enough, it's still capable of being blown up by +2 Ogerpon, especially if factoring in its tera. Or they'll just get beaten by encore sets. Having to depend on Tera because there's a shortage of checks (in this case defensive) is usually a bad sign of balance or rather a lack of balance of a pokemon. We've seen it multiple times this gen.

Sure, waterpon can have multiple moves that it can use, but it can't have all of them. At worst, you may have to sack a mon, at best you maybe lose an item. I would say to ko a mon, that's good. Once you figure it has knock off, your dragon can come in to ko it. Once you figure out it has play rough, yeah you may have to do a little dance but you can try to switch in a grass type on an ivy cudgel.

Again, you're greatly oversimplifying the process. Wellspring gets many opportunities against slower teams unless you run like 2 big checks and a soft check on top (like a Dragapult for offensive resists, which btw gets 2HKOd by Ivy Cudgel if a crit happens), but that's just showing the problem of having to dedicate so much teambuilding space to handle it.

I mean, ferro would technically be very good against waterpon.
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Ferrothorn: 129-153 (36.6 - 43.4%) -- 98.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 142-168 (47.1 - 55.8%) -- 77.3% chance to 2HKO
Seriously, you don't even need to id, you just take +2 ivy cudgel well.
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 137-162 (33.9 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 91-108 (30.2 - 35.8%) -- 34.9% chance to 3HKO
Idk, they both do well. Like tangrowth is actually better since it has regen to take advantage of.
Waterpon is difficult to defensively check, yes, that's not the issue people have with the statements about waterpon being broken. The issue is that people don't realise that just because a mon is hard to defensively check, doesn't mean it is hard to offensively check. If we went with that, then crawdaunt should be banned (I know that is a bad arguement, but look at this calc to see what I mean, waterpon has to have super effective stab to get above this calc.)
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tera Dark Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 241-286 (47.8 - 56.7%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO
See what I mean? However, offensively checking waterpon is much easier, it has good, but not spectacular 110 speed, which in this fast paced meta every team non-stall should have something faster. It is relatively weak to priority, which is a statement people give for roaring moon not being broken, so I could also apply this to waterpon. It is very hazard weak, which is not good in this meta as it can't hold HDB. Even still, stall can find ways around waterpon. Slap a tera dragon on a gliscor/mandibuzz and that can be a good measure. Hydrapple is a great mon on stall and that is massive for it. Amoonguss is a mon that can counter waterpon hard, knock off is annoying but is managable. Toxapex can deal with it by using haze. Wo chien can be used to counter it hard. Compared to ursaluna on stall, which is basically use drifblim or lmao just die, waterpon has a lot more counterplay. Sure, waterpon is better against a larger variety of teams, but those teams also have adequate counterplay to waterpon.

Again, I'm saying this mainly from experience from placing formats where Ferro is legal with Wellspring and while Ferro can help against some variants, it's weak to sets like Superpower and Encore, with the latter making Ferro set up bait the moment it clicks leech seed or stealth rock.

I'll briefly touch on the defensive stuff you listed before closing out though. Tera Dragon Gliscor has two big issues, one of which is the newfound hazard vulnerability and two is it now becoming weak to Valiant which it could formerly check decently. Gliscor is also Encore bait and thus, set up food. Mandibuzz is the same, as are Skarmory and Corviknight (the instant they click any passive move they lose). Hydrapple needs heavy phys investment or it dies to Play Rough (and is stall mostly so it's not easy to put on Balance or BO, which adds to the issue). Amoonguss is a terrible mon post sleep ban so it's not even worth talking about, and Toxapex is also not really good outside stall and is, again, Encore food. And Wo Chien sucks.

You say fast meta, but a big reason it is this way (and also prone to match up fishiness) is because there's so much to account for that it can really be difficult to build those other teams, and pokemon like Ogerpon-W greatly contribute to that. You also say " The issue is that people don't realise that just because a mon is hard to defensively check, doesn't mean it is hard to offensively check. If we went with that, then crawdaunt should be banned" which, no offense, comes off as a bit disingenous. Pokemon like Crawdaunt are possible to limit even with slower teams because it's so absurdly frail, difficult to bring in, and vulnerable to all manner of chip on top of offensive counterplay. Slower teams don't have nearly the same luxury vs Ogerpon without going out of their way with bringing checks because of its power and speed.

 

[Heatranator]

I mean you're ignoring the possibility of tera ghost on any physical wall if you really want security. But also it's possible with tactics like fast Corv/Skarm with ID BP to cover for SD Luna. Regarding your remark about BO/Balance, running a single fast pokemon to offensively check it is nowhere near enough. Not at a high level anyways. As for Specs Kyurem I'm not going to argue much against it simply because I don't think its presence is desirable long term either, but also because one man that is questionable avoided a ban doesn't mean something else questionable isn't banworthy. You're also oversimplifying it. If your Tera Dragon mon isn't bulky enough, it's still capable of being blown up by +2 Ogerpon, especially if factoring in its tera. Or they'll just get beaten by encore sets. Having to depend on Tera because there's a shortage of checks (in this case defensive) is usually a bad sign of balance or rather a lack of balance of a pokemon. We've seen it multiple times this gen.

I think that having to slap on tera ghost for a mon isn't really the best thing in the world to deal with ursaluna.
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Fire Punch vs. +2 252 HP / 160+ Def Skarmory: 88-104 (26.3 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
While they can barely beat it, skarm/corv do have to be careful of coming in as otherwise it will be a 2hit ko.
Honestly, yes, most of the time a faster offensive mon is enough to check waterpon.
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 249-294 (86.1 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Enamorus is extremely frail, and even in a pinch it can check waterpon, if it takes any damage than it may be screwed, but that's not the point. The point is that enamorus puts it in range of most priority moves.
252 SpA Enamorus Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 165-195 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So yeah, I would say that it usually enough for it. Fast mon + priority, which every non stall team should have I believe. I think there was a pinkacross video about it, so imma just use that as a source.
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Dragapult: 261-308 (82.3 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Minus defense btw, with a mon that is frail. I went through the tera type index (which has to be updated btw), and picked out mons that were kinda frail that use tera dragon.
Manaphy
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Dragon Manaphy: 184-217 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Lmao, I forgot it is water type to begin with, but still)
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 246-290 (72.1 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Volcarona
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Tera Dragon Volcarona: 227-267 (60.6 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Tera Dragon Volcarona: 303-357 (81 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So, yeah, I don't think that waterpon once it gets up an sd its "gg, shake my hand". Even decently frail mons can tera dragon and still take a hit, even if it sds and teras. So imagine bulky resists.
If they are running encore, guess what? They can't use play rough. Meaning that they now are countered by any decently fast dragons types, which there are a decent amount of in this meta. Sure, if the only way to defensively counter a mon is to tera, I would agree, however, mons in there base typing can take a hit from it, even at +2
I'll give you a list:
Corviknight
Dondozo
Dragapult
Dragonite
Gouging Fire
Kingambit
Kyurem
Raging bolt
Roaring Moon
Serperior
Skarmory
Zamazenta
Now, of course play rough can be difficult for at lot of these, but only kyurem, corviknight, gouging fire and skarmory don't have either priority or outspeed waterpon. I would say that that is sufficient counterplay. This is all assuming that it gets to +2, which it shouldn't get to for free. It should get up an sd, then get threatened out by one of these revenge killers.

Again, you're greatly oversimplifying the process. Wellspring gets many opportunities against slower teams unless you run like 2 big checks and a soft check on top (like a Dragapult for offensive resists, which btw gets 2HKOd by Ivy Cudgel if a crit happens), but that's just showing the problem of having to dedicate so much teambuilding space to handle it.

I would say that the mons that you need to check for waterpon are mons that commonly are used regardless of it being there. Again, you maybe need 1 hard check and 1 soft check, and saying that a mon does not counter something if it gets a crit I don't think really matters. Sure, ivy cudgel has a higher crit rate, so that can be dumb, but sometimes crits happen and that is unfortunate.

Again, I'm saying this mainly from experience from placing formats where Ferro is legal with Wellspring and while Ferro can help against some variants, it's weak to sets like Superpower and Encore, with the latter making Ferro set up bait the moment it clicks leech seed or stealth rock.

I'll briefly touch on the defensive stuff you listed before closing out though. Tera Dragon Gliscor has two big issues, one of which is the newfound hazard vulnerability and two is it now becoming weak to Valiant which it could formerly check decently. Gliscor is also Encore bait and thus, set up food. Mandibuzz is the same, as are Skarmory and Corviknight (the instant they click any passive move they lose). Hydrapple needs heavy phys investment or it dies to Play Rough (and is stall mostly so it's not easy to put on Balance or BO, which adds to the issue). Amoonguss is a terrible mon post sleep ban so it's not even worth talking about, and Toxapex is also not really good outside stall and is, again, Encore food. And Wo Chien sucks.

You say fast meta, but a big reason it is this way (and also prone to match up fishiness) is because there's so much to account for that it can really be difficult to build those other teams, and pokemon like Ogerpon-W greatly contribute to that. You also say " The issue is that people don't realise that just because a mon is hard to defensively check, doesn't mean it is hard to offensively check. If we went with that, then crawdaunt should be banned" which, no offense, comes off as a bit disingenous. Pokemon like Crawdaunt are possible to limit even with slower teams because it's so absurdly frail, difficult to bring in, and vulnerable to all manner of chip on top of offensive counterplay. Slower teams don't have nearly the same luxury vs Ogerpon without going out of their way with bringing checks because of its power and speed.

Okay, so if ferro is having to face superpower waterpon, than that is definetely an issue. However, if it happnes to be encore than guess what? You switch in your dragon type. If it is superpower, than that is unfortunate, but now you know that your dragon type is better against it.
Gliscor is good against one valiant set, sd, without moonblast which I think is rarer. Calm mind valiant destroys gliscor, it can 2hit ko gliscor easily. Gliscor may be encore bait, but you can easily switch out. And if it is encore, than guess what?
+6 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 244 HP / 248+ Def Tera Dragon Gliscor: 274-323 (77.8 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+6 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 244 HP / 248+ Def Tera Dragon Gliscor: 305-359 (86.6 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
You have to get to +6 and tera in order to ohko gliscor, and gliscor can easily get a toxic/poison jab off, which the stall team can take advanatage of.
Mandibuzz gets to id up, and then click foul play. So yeah, and again, if it is encore.
+6 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Tera Dragon Mandibuzz: 345-407 (81.5 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lmao, not even an ohko.
+6 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Dragon Corviknight: 344-405 (86 - 101.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Again, no ohko so they have a chance. Skarm has much more bulk and can whirlwind it out if the stall team has it.
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Hydrapple: 206-244 (49.6 - 58.7%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
Hydrapple doesn't need heavy investment to beat waterpon.
The last three are for stall specifically, which is what waterpon is best against. So even its best matchup has ways to beat it.
I do agree that the metagame is way too fast paced and something needs to go, if that's waterpon than that's fine by me. I won't cry about it as that's one less thing to account for in the teambuilder. Heck, if I had the choice I would vote ban just because something needs to go. Do I think waterpon is the first choice? No, not by a long shot. I have played all kinds of playstyles, from HO to BO to Balance to Stall and even semi-stall. Heck, when I made a dachsbun stall team, I slapped on tera grass to it so it could counter e-quakes from gouging, but it also helped against waterpon. I was trash at building stall teams, but I didn't go out of my way to account for waterpon.
Waterpon is also really weak to chip, it is so hazard weak which is not good in this hazard centric game. You should be accounting for waterpon on slower teams, but most teams 1. Have a faster mon and 2. Have natural ways to counter it, like with dragapult or roaring moon. The only teamstyle that doesn't have this is stall, which can slap on a tera dragon and a resist to make it work.

TLDR, I'm not saying waterpon isn't scary, it is, but it has crucial weaknesses. That is what makes it not turbo broken to me and only, "okay, this thing might be broken, though probably not".

 

[Shadow Crystal]

I mean, fini is neutral to steel and has massive special bulk, so it could work.
0 SpA Tapu Fini Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 102-120 (26.9 - 31.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 160-189 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You would likely have to invest in special bulk, but compared to corv who can do a whole pile of nothing to ghold, yeah this is leagues better.
Plus, it is a water type and most spike setters are ground types, and skarm has bad sp.defense so it could be good.
But I doubt they would let it keep defog.

Actually fini learns defog naturally through level up so it will keep it..

 

[RKOtaku]

This is a rather disingenuous retort given no one mentioned balance/stall being a "favorite" playstyle of theirs. Just the negative influence OgerponW has vs these styles. Teams are already strapped for slots trying to check the wide variety of big threats as is, and Ogerpon itself is a part of that group of threats, constraining building quite heavily. Either running niche tera types that are worse vs other big threats, or running mons that are worse vs other big threats and thus compromise some element of your teambuilding.



This is a really bad argument, and ignores the issue. Also pokemon like Ursaluna still has counterplay found on stall, albeit shaky, and is a very nuanced and flawed pokemon that, while good, is kept in line by those flaws. Wellspring meanwhile is highly splashable and consistent, and heavily constrains the builder. It's not just stall or balance. Even BO needs to build with it in mind needing two checks minimum. It rips up defensive cores which also enables its own teammates as a result. Also please cut it out with Kingambit already. Anytime something comes up for discussion on being broken or potentially broken, there's always at least one or two "but Kingambit survived so this is fine" attitudes.



Weird how you doubled down on the 4MSS argument despite what Ian said which quite solidly defeats it. Ogerpon is hugely threatening to these slower teams because of its moveset diversity. Try scouting and you'll risk either a knock off, making your check super vulnerable to hazards, you risk giving Ogerpon an SD and then that check just dropping because so little defensively can eat a +2 Ivy Cudgel/Power Whip without being either a niche pokemon or running a bad tera type on a good pokemon. You're also ignoring how polarizing the different sets are. So much of counterplay just loses if it runs Play Rough, and the stuff that beats Play Rough sets (which isn't much) loses to other variants. There is nowhere near enough overlap in the builder defensively speaking. Also for Bulky grasses? The only good one is Bulky Rilla, which unboosted is weak as shit and can just die to a +2 Power Whip with a spike up (Rilla's own terrain literally helping Ogerpon kill it lol irony).



Try making a noban argument of a balance breaker without complaining about balance pokemon challenge (impossible).

How is it good? There are many perfectly healthy stops and punishes to Mola that don't involve a broken pokemon. And yeah it's got cool defensive utility for offense. Doesn't matter though if what it does to the metagame isn't healthy overall, and it's not. It's one of many difficult to handle threats, and it's, imo, at or near the top of that list right now.



Lol Ferro is just as abusable by Encore sets. Speaking from experience on that one. And Tangrowth isn't much better. There are not many options to deal with it for non offense, else we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Also unless Hydrapple is super phys invested, +2 Play Rough OHKOs with rocks up. So no it's not much better again, and also it is a niche and difficult to fit mon.

If you are going to act cocky at least make sure you understand what the person wrote before acting all smart. As a user said above, you did not understood what I said about Kingambit. I at least had a good laugh seeing an Alomomola pp user feel offended even though I wasn't talking to them.
Sorry you can't have a team that checks 100% of the metagame (spoiler, you can't). If the only BULKY grass types that comes to your mind is Rillaboom to check Ogerpon-W when it's just making it stronger I don't know what to tell you but try to step outside of your comfort zone. It's not because a mon is niche that it's bad, someone recently made a strong team with Vileplume ffs. Also, of course you would use a physical wall to check a physical wallbreaker so your last point is irrelevant.

Try making a comment on the internet without being met by a keyboard warrior challenge (impossible)

I would have gladly answered in depth if your answer wasn't filled with this passive aggressive tone but I don't have time to waste with someone that has been acting like a bully on the forum against multiple people for years. Enjoy making the forum unwelcoming toward new users and welcome to the blacklist :)

 

[Tio Chico]

I dropped most engagement with the site after I decided to get a life, but I wanted to briefly state that I am disappointed with the results of the Gouging Fire suspect test. My personal hope was that it could be banned and we could make some progress after being in a broken-checks-broken stalemate all generation, however that is not the case. I dislike the results greatly to the point of them being intolerable, and I am not looking forward to the expectedly reduced pace of council action in OU for the coming months; not that I will be around to expect anything. This is quite possibly my least favorite iteration of OU to date, besides generation five, and it will likely continue to be that way until the end of generation nine. This is not a jab at the people committing their time and resources to enjoying a hobby they pour into, but the conditions have been just right for a considerably hairsplitting experience on many accounts that is just not worth putting time into anymore until further notice. After a decade of childhood spent lurking and engaging with Showdown and Smogon, it is an odd experience to be dropping this hobby and not be so invested in organized competitive scenes.

Anyways, thanks for your time, enjoy the rest of generation nine.

Good luck. :)

Thanks for the push I needed. I'm going to take a similar path, watch until the SPL final and return as a spectator on OLT.
It's not a Defeatist attitude, I just don't want to engage in a hobby that I no longer enjoy.
Festival of broken check broken, HO spam, Gholdengo restricting the teambuild and Custap Berry being something legit. Terastal removing the concepts of Counter and Revenge Kill. Learnset rework... I just didn't adapt to the new board or the meta is just really bad, maybe both.
I've taken occasional forced breaks due to IRL busyness, but this is the first optional break in 8 and a half years on the site.

 

[weirdo faye]

na bro lol i think what u guys have is a skill issue/gg(get good), whats the point of saying this&that to justify i dnt wna play cos i cant adapt to the metagame and cant peak as i once did anymore. i am bad with gen9 too and i have no problem admitting to it there is no shame in being bad over a game, its very entertaining to play every now and then for me, i dig fast games my preferred style thru all the time ive played has always been offense, either im doing the ownage or i get owned by other ho but its still fun for me xdd

 

[YubelVT]

How it feels to teambuild this generation (I am the car)

That tank had no suspension I want you to imagine what the crew inside the tank felt when it crashed down like that
There's too much broken shit in the tier and not enough universal checks. This is coming from a gen 7 enjoyer where landorus-t blanket checks most of the tier through sheer versatility. Now the uninformed among us would think that's bad, but you're wrong. Despite the existence of this blanket check, gen 7 has a stupid amount of variety. For example, fucking Shedinja stall is the best form of stall despite the lack of HDB. Now look at gen 9, sure there's variety, but it's like the different kinds of bread at the store. It's all different varieties of the same thing and none of them are 647 bread (low carb). Something needs to be banned, we can all agree on this, but what needs to go is completely different depending on the person. I think the obvious answer is Kingambit (and his electric stepfather Raging Bolt) but that's controversial despite the tier objectively being warped around him to an unhealthy degree.

 

[redninjapuffle]

na bro lol i think what u guys have is a skill issue/gg(get good), whats the point of saying this&that to justify i dnt wna play cos i cant adapt to the metagame and cant peak as i once did anymore. i am bad with gen9 too and i have no problem admitting to it there is no shame in being bad over a game, its very entertaining to play every now and then for me, i dig fast games my preferred style thru all the time ive played has always been offense, either im doing the ownage or i get owned by other ho but its still fun for me xdd

Good for you for finding fun in this mess of a meta. Other people however cannot find the fun in this meta and thus do not want to play said meta. Its not a skill issue, its a “I do not find this meta enjoyable anymore” issue.

 

[weirdo faye]

Good for you for finding fun in this mess of a meta. Other people however cannot find the fun in this meta and thus do not want to play said meta. Its not a skill issue, its a “I do not find this meta enjoyable anymore” issue.

hey, if that is your genuine opinion its not fun then thats respectable, im sorry if that was their honest thoughts, but we all know theres multiple ppl who quit stuff cos they cant move along w the times u know it i know it

 

[weirdo faye]

How it feels to teambuild this generation (I am the car)
View attachment 616647That tank had no suspension I want you to imagine what the crew inside the tank felt when it crashed down like that
There's too much broken shit in the tier and not enough universal checks. This is coming from a gen 7 enjoyer where landorus-t blanket checks most of the tier through sheer versatility. Now the uninformed among us would think that's bad, but you're wrong. Despite the existence of this blanket check, gen 7 has a stupid amount of variety. For example, fucking Shedinja stall is the best form of stall despite the lack of HDB. Now look at gen 9, sure there's variety, but it's like the different kinds of bread at the store. It's all different varieties of the same thing and none of them are 647 bread (low carb). Something needs to be banned, we can all agree on this, but what needs to go is completely different depending on the person. I think the obvious answer is Kingambit (and his electric stepfather Raging Bolt) but that's controversial despite the tier objectively being warped around him to an unhealthy degree.

still think ladder is way dead compared to what it once was, but honestly just move on w the times. coming from some1 who has a soft spot for gen7 too i still have all the replays of me being a moron on the ladder on weekends cosplaying wish killer and trashtalking ppl everytime i won and uploading said replay, also think too much broken stuff in the game now needs to be banned, gholdengo, gfire rmoon rbolt kingambit all too stronk, but tbh theres people who will vote to keep all these broken things in the tier cos theyve been abusing the fk out of it and are biased to vote do not ban. since they werent banned, ive been abusing the crap out of said mons too, its very fun to see big pp numbers or dmg these mons put out ngl, if u cant beat the broken things, u join them, ez

LOL

 

[Soiramio3000]

When is the next suspect test?

I know that after we ban a pokemon we usually wait for a week, then have a community survey and then a suspect test based on that survey's results.

What are we doing now that gouging fire dodged the ban hammer?

 

[Deleted User [52440]]

na bro lol i think what u guys have is a skill issue/gg(get good), whats the point of saying this&that to justify i dnt wna play cos i cant adapt to the metagame and cant peak as i once did anymore. i am bad with gen9 too and i have no problem admitting to it there is no shame in being bad over a game, its very entertaining to play every now and then for me, i dig fast games my preferred style thru all the time ive played has always been offense, either im doing the ownage or i get owned by other ho but its still fun for me xdd

So incredibly patronising to dismiss anyone's valid concern of the meta as "skill-issue". So what if they aren't topping the ladder and aren't competing at high level tournaments? Guess what, the vast majority of the playerbase don't meet those requirements. Do we just dismiss all their opinions because you're gatekeeping under the subjective premise of "skill-issue"?

The person above your post whom you shadow replied to (you mentioned peaking the ladder like before when they said they were struggling to adapt to the current meta) was one of the first people to get reqs for GF. At the very least, do some research at who you're slinging "skill-issue" accusations at.