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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 ( NEW SURVEY UP, POST 20,700 )

I have a question. What holds Psychic Terrain back in OU? It’s extremely potent in CAP. I want to share this set that Amamama uses to great effect, which can be nearly unstoppable with Hatterene as a hazard blocker and Eject Button pivoter:

Armarouge @ Focus Sash / Psychic Seed
Ability: Weak Armor
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Armor Cannon
- Expanding Force
- Calm Mind
- Endure

Focus Sash allows a Calm Mind or Psychic Seec aids setup. Endure then allows Armarouge to outspeed the entire meta and revenge-kill-proof it thanks to Psychic Terrain. It punishing multi-hit moves the most. Expanding Force is OP in Psychic Terrain, and Armor Cannon is STAB.
 
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what i've noticed in the past 2 days of lurking in here but not saying anything
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Dead by Daylight said:
brother brave bird zapdos does worse than normal zapdos at dealing with tusk
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Probably, the main thing is that you don't have a miss chance, which is my main thinking of using bb Zapdos.
I doubt it's going to be great, but I think it's worth a shot. It's a flying type that skarm and corv do not want to switch into.
0 Atk Zapdos Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Great Tusk: 146-174 (33.6 - 40%) -- 25.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
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Heatranator said:
I'm going to be trying out some more off meta sets, which includes brave bird Zapdos(to deal with tusk) and taunt corv. Wish me luck.
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if you really wanna try and put your offmeta taunt teambuilding to the test use sd + taunt gliscor, in theory it might be able to deal with stall but i got no idea how good it is in actual practice but not sure
 
littensalt said:
if you really wanna try and put your offmeta taunt teambuilding to the test use sd + taunt gliscor, in theory it might be able to deal with stall but i got no idea how good it is in actual practice but not sure
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Interesting idea, the main thing is dondozo, which would hard wall it mostly. Cause it commonly runs waterfall or avalanche on stall, that would be difficult for gliscor to deal with. I could see it working with something like banded meow to decimate a stall team (specifically with thunder punch over U-turn to destroy corv/skarm).
Also 4mss, as you have protect, taunt, SD. This leaves only one moveslot for damage though, so you might have to drop protect which would be problematic.
 
Heatranator said:
Interesting idea, the main thing is dondozo, which would hard wall it mostly. Cause it commonly runs waterfall or avalanche on stall, that would be difficult for gliscor to deal with. I could see it working with something like banded meow to decimate a stall team (specifically with thunder punch over U-turn to destroy corv/skarm).
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could be cooking .. But then again if you need to run 2 mainly stall breakers youre sacrificing another member already, i have had this idea for a while though because i remember when i was first getting into actual competitive sd + taunt gliscor from gen 5 was one of the first results when searching up "stallbreakers pokemon"
 
littensalt said:
could be cooking .. But then again if you need to run 2 mainly stall breakers youre sacrificing another member already, i have had this idea for a while though because i remember when i was first getting into actual competitive sd + taunt gliscor from gen 5 was one of the first results when searching up "stallbreakers pokemon"
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Maybe you have something like boots raging bolt? That would be less of a stall breaker, but still help with dondozo. You can switch in on dozo that tries to wall gliscor, and glisc switches in on Blissey's/clods that try to wall bolt. The only issue would be ice beam Blissey, which isn't two common but destroys both.
 
Anchor9 said:
I have a question. What holds Psychic Terrain back in OU? It’s extremely potent in CAP. I want to share this set that Amamama uses to great effect, which can be nearly unstoppable with Hatterene as a hazard blocker and Red Card pivoter:

Armarouge @ Focus Sash / Psychic Seed
Ability: Weak Armor
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Armor Cannon
- Expanding Force
- Calm Mind
- Endure

Focus Sash allows a Calm Mind or Psychic Seec aids setup. Endure then allows Armarouge to outspeed the entire meta and revenge-kill-proof it thanks to Psychic Terrain. It punishing multi-hit moves the most. Expanding Force is OP in Psychic Terrain, and Armor Cannon is STAB.
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Well, I tried Psychic Terrain for a bit and I can honestly say it is incredibly underwhelming.

One of the biggest problems is Indeedee isn't a real pokemon. At least not at the OU level in singles. It's kind of like playing 5 v 6. Not as bad as Pinurchin, but still. It's pretty bad. Rillaboom works because it's an actual good mon and you get useful priority as a package deal. It's almost never dead weight on a team. The other terrain setters we have access to aren't that good. Or they are Geezing who is niche in the first place and prefers to run better abilities.

Another huge problem is that non stall teams in gen 9 tend to rely heavily on priority as a means of not getting swept. It's simply too hard to check all the threats in the tier otherwise. Psychic Terrain eliminates priority, but leaves you vulnerable to faster setup sweepers since you have little way to revenge them. Like I tried an iteration if a Psychic Terrain team with D-Speed and Booster speed Valiant. Iron Valiant can only come in with the speed boost once and it usually isn't enough. Neither one of these blazingly fast mons was actually fast enough as revenge killers to cover all the speedy threats I needed. Scarf Meow tears through the team. Iron Boulder goes from a mon that belongs in UU to the most threatening thing you have ever seen in your life.

For this reason, your weather matchup also sucks. Rain and Sun speed boosts tend to outrun everything you would fit on your teams. You have no answer for Barry whatsoever. The boosted metagame is a beast.

The next issue is that you straight lose to Roaring Moon. Not much you can do about this one with most team structures. It's the speed tier that is the real issue here. Moon will find a way to come in for free at some point in the match because psychic moves. It will then outspeed your entire team. Like I'm not exaggerating at all when I say that Psychic Terrain is almost an auto-loss into Roaring Moon, particularly with the speed boost. Most people who aren't running stall rely on chip and finishing it off with priority, which your team doesn't like. You can run priority, but it is jank as heck and you can't freely utilize it. Imagine having to stall out your own terrain while Moon is KOing your team so that you can revenge kill it with priority after the turns run out. A competent player will probably find a way to do that to you with Roaring Moon. Even if you do stop Moon from delivering the finishing blow, you probably lost like half your team at that point.

Of course you can try to set up your own mons, but this requires you to actually get the positioning to do so first. It's kind of hard to do this when most teams have better mons for positioning and you are carrying dead weight Indeedee. Something like Polteageist or Sinistcha can set up if you keep hazards off long enough to keep the Focus Sash in tact. But doing this and finding the time to setup while under pressure from offensive teams isn't easy in practice.
 
1234hjkl said:
Lmao. This is such a fear mongering post. Lugia is faaaaaar away from unkillable, every single playstyle has ways to deal with Lugia, you're looking too much at its defensive stats and HA and ignoring everything else, like the recovery nerf, loss of key moves it liked like toxic and thunder wave, it's bad defensive type, susceptibility to every status, being rocks weak, being a huge tera-hog which is big since Tera cost nowadays is all time high with all the huge beatsticks in the tier and even even with Tera Lugia will always be stopped by a well made team since it invites soon much stuff if it doesn't have the right coverage/tera type: no ground coverage? Ghambit/Dhengo bait, no ice moves? Dragons and bulky grounds use you as set-up/hazards, no fighting/Fairy coverage? Hamurott, RM and Weavile uses you as bait And let's not get started on the Unaware mons which don't care about it unless it packs some bad coverage on it. I see a lot of people saying just because it's a bad Uber/UUber it shouldn't be given a chance but that's wrong in my opinion, the mons at its rank in UUbers or lower at there for one of these 4 reasons:
1 They're arent bad but are Outclassed, like Sceptile(ShedTail) and Reshiram.

2 They have better forms/version like Arceus, Urshifu and Dia-Origin

3 They're OU mons who are very niche in the tier and may may not be bordeline UUbers

4 They are really bad and there's no reason to use it. LUGIA.

I'm not saying to give a suspect right now especially with the meta as unstable as it is right now, but I really believe it can bring something good for the tier. It's a bad offensive mon but it could be a good/great defensive boon to help handle all those offensive threats turning the tier into a offensive mess, we shouldn't be afraid to consider mons just because the are Ubers by what is a formality due to being a 680bst box-mon rather than being an actual Uber. When the Deoxys and Darkrai got dropped everyone was saying they won't last now the three are fine and two of them are UU or lower.

TL/DR: Lugia, is ok and should be considered in the future once the tier stabilizes a bit more, also Ban Tera, it's a cancer killing the tier and ban RM as well.
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Having an above average speed mon that isn't completely worthless offensively and is REALLY good at not dying is too much for this metagame. 106/130/154 base defenses are a lot, and even with only 8 pp on recover, it will not die and it can continue using multiscale well through to the lategame.
252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Lugia: 126-148 (30.2 - 35.5%) -- 36.1% chance to 3HKO
You also say that Deoxys and Darkrai got dropped to UU but that's because they're just not all that in the metagame, as they both get outclassed by other options. Deo-s with max speed can't outspeed +1 valiant and is pretty much only worthy of OU because it can win in a lead-off vs. Tusk, and Darkrai is kind of just outclassed by Gambit and Valiant in general, both as a setup sweeper/breaker and as a revenge killer (I don't think I need to talk about Deo-D).
The existence of Lugia in the tier also causes a ton of problems because it can do so much for the tier. Defensively, it's a CLEAR upgrade over many of the tier's bulky flyings, and also has access to whirlwind, making it a clear fit as a defensive backbone on hazard stack teams in conjunction with something like Tusk or Ting-lu. Even with a relatively subpar SpA stat, Aeroblast can still do respectable damage (at least enough to deal with the mons that would otherwise completely shut it down)
The lack of Recover PP also isn't a major roadblock. 8 recover PP is more than enough for Lugia to chip down threats to its teammates before dying, and future sight allows you to reposition your team as neccesary.
It also has calm mind, which allows it multiple setup oppurtunities as it can set up in front of the multiple mons who don't like sitting in front of Lugia (Zam, Valiant, Tusk, etc.) which allows it to even more reliably take damage while still hitting quite hard. STAB psychic noise is also a nice tool to have as you can now reliably heal while your opponent cannot.
Honestly, I don't know why we keep entertaining the lugia unban discussion. It's a terrible idea, although it could be considered for generation 10.
 
Thanks for all the answers. I’m just wondering since CAP has all those Pokémon and an additional 33 threats to deal with and Psychic Terrain still manages to be good (and none of the CAPs really abuse it at all).

Also, Unburden Hawlucha is only relevantly outsped by Barra in Rain, that includes all the booster Speed mons, meaning Psychic Terrain shouldn’t have too much speed problems if you use Eject Button Hat well. After a Swords Dance it goes crazy on teams without an Unaware Mon.
 
Anchor9 said:
Thanks for all the answers. I’m just wondering since CAP has all those Pokémon and an additional 33 threats to deal with and Psychic Terrain still manages to be good (and none of the CAPs really abuse it at all).

Also, Unburden Hawlucha is only relevantly outsped by Barra in Rain, that includes all the booster Speed mons, meaning Psychic Terrain shouldn’t have too much speed problems if you use Eject Button Hat well. After a Swords Dance it goes crazy on teams without an Unaware Mon.
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Hawlucha is essentially a one use button. Using it at the start or to save yourself from a setup sweeper (often with sacrificing Indeedee in the process) is generally not ideal. You should be saving that Hawlucha for cleaning after you punch holes in the opposing team. It is also better on Grassy Terrain where it can get a defense boost for most priority and a teammate that actually counters Barry.

Eject button Hatt is useful. Turn 1, Indeede lead switch into Eject Button Hatt. Then get in your setup mon. It is the most telegraphed thing ever, but this works against nearly everything except Hamurott lead and those calling your bluff with Encore or their own setup mons. But you'd be better with an earlier game setup mon to use this at the start of games. Something with Stored Power to break Unaware mons and Tera Fighting to break Tera Dark stall teams. You could maybe bring in a cleaner like Hawlucha later, but I honestly am not high on Hawlucha on PT teams. It's not that it can't work. Just that I find it very underwhelming.

My advice is to try adding Gouging Fire. Fire STAB is extremely useful on these teams to deal with Steel types. GF can boost it's speed, hit Heatran with EQ, and be both an offensive and defensive backbone to a team. Psychic Seed might actually go crazy since everyone uses special attackers to try and counter it. Testing this dynamic is probably the only reason I would even try a Psychic Terrain team again.
 
Anchor9 said:
Thanks for all the answers. I’m just wondering since CAP has all those Pokémon and an additional 33 threats to deal with and Psychic Terrain still manages to be good (and none of the CAPs really abuse it at all).

Also, Unburden Hawlucha is only relevantly outsped by Barra in Rain, that includes all the booster Speed mons, meaning Psychic Terrain shouldn’t have too much speed problems if you use Eject Button Hat well. After a Swords Dance it goes crazy on teams without an Unaware Mon.
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FWIW I’ve used a very similar Psy Terrain in OU and you absolutely can win vs Grassy Squads with your own Lucha. The issue is that dark types are much better here. You can’t really load 2 atks Armarouge here bc stuff like ting Lu, Roaring Moon and to an extent Hamurott and Gren are more easily usable in OU or at least more common and running Arma with just STABs will whiff into these mons basically always.
Additionally CAPs most classic defensive core has three defensive mons that are all weak to just Armas STABs and a lot of teams are generally more balancey, which gives you much more opportunities to set up.

https://pokepast.es/dc9eb0467f627f24 This is fun to use even if you likely don’t go far on ladder. But if you play very aggressively this team is really rewarding.
 
I want to mention a Gouging Fire set that was on everyone’s mind before someone said, “Wait, Band Proto-Attack 2HKOes Dozo in Sun.”

The set I’m talking about is true defensive GF.

True Defensive Gouging Fire

:sv/gouging Fire:

Gouging Fire @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: (Insert Tera)
EVs: (Insert Optimal EV spread)
(Insert Optimal Nature)
- Heat Crash
- Dragon Tail
- Burning Bulwark
- Morning Sun

You thought Whirlwind Ting-Lu was annoying, welcome Gouging Fire, who can do the same with more chip and more offensive pressure. It loses hazards but gains longevity. It also beats Balloon Ghold. Heat Crash is over Flare Blitz since it doesn’t want to take recoil and most of its main targets (Fairy Types) take 120 BP from it anyways. Everything else is Dragon Tailed. It would waste plenty of Booster Energies and This would function well on hazard stack, as it punishes Rapid Spin removal attempts with Burning Bulwark, while Corv takes loads of damage trying to Defog. This kinda gets wrecked by Primarina though.

Teamates:
(Wanna put a note that I’m terrible at teambuilding so someone could probably come up with something better)

:sv/gliscor: :sv/samurott hisui: - Set hazards and bring Knock support so that Dragon Tail does something. Gliscor is also a Ground immunity.

:sv/gholdengo:- Aids with keeping hazards down and puts pressure on Fairy types.

:sv/Rillaboom:- Provides passive healing and takes out Primarina.

:sv/weavile: :sv/meowscarada: - Knockers that bring high offensive pressure and can sweep with the amount of chip Gouging Fire will apply to the opponent.

I would love to hear others thoughts about this.
 
Anchor9 said:
I want to mention a Gouging Fire set that was on everyone’s mind before someone said, “Wait, Band Proto-Attack 2HKOes Dozo in Sun.”

The set I’m talking about is true defensive GF.

True Defensive Gouging Fire

:sv/gouging Fire:

Gouging Fire @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: (Insert Tera)
EVs: (Insert Optimal EV spread)
(Insert Optimal Nature)
- Heat Crash
- Dragon Tail
- Burning Bulwark
- Morning Sun

You thought Whirlwind Ting-Lu was annoying, welcome Gouging Fire, who can do the same with more chip and more offensive pressure. It loses hazards but gains longevity. It also beats Balloon Ghold. Heat Crash is over Flare Blitz since it doesn’t want to take recoil and most of its main targets (Fairy Types) take 120 BP from it anyways. Everything else is Dragon Tailed. It would waste plenty of Booster Energies and This would function well on hazard stack, as it punishes Rapid Spin removal attempts with Burning Bulwark, while Corv takes loads of damage trying to Defog. This kinda gets wrecked by Primarina though.

Teamates:
(Wanna put a note that I’m terrible at teambuilding so someone could probably come up with something better)

:sv/gliscor: :sv/samurott hisui: - Set hazards and bring Knock support so that Dragon Tail does something. Gliscor is also a Ground immunity.

:sv/gholdengo:- Aids with keeping hazards down and puts pressure on Fairy types.

:sv/Rillaboom:- Provides passive healing and takes out Primarina.

:sv/weavile: :sv/meowscarada: - Knockers that bring high offensive pressure and can sweep with the amount of chip Gouging Fire will apply to the opponent.

I would love to hear others thoughts about this.
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You could slash in Breaking Swipe so it can become more "defensive"
TBH I think the first set we all thought about before someone said "Wait, Band Proto-Attack 2HKOes Dozo in Sun.” was the standard DD set
 
DaRotomMachine said:
You could slash in Breaking Swipe so it can become more "defensive"
TBH I think the first set we all thought about before someone said "Wait, Band Proto-Attack 2HKOes Dozo in Sun.” was the standard DD set
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Breaking Swipe kinda removes the point of this certain set. It’s supposed to be a Defensive phaser. I thing Dragon Tail also does a much better Defensive job since something like Volcarona won’t endlessly set up on you.
 
Anchor9 said:
I want to mention a Gouging Fire set that was on everyone’s mind before someone said, “Wait, Band Proto-Attack 2HKOes Dozo in Sun.”

The set I’m talking about is true defensive GF.

True Defensive Gouging Fire

:sv/gouging Fire:

Gouging Fire @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: (Insert Tera)
EVs: (Insert Optimal EV spread)
(Insert Optimal Nature)
- Heat Crash
- Dragon Tail
- Burning Bulwark
- Morning Sun

You thought Whirlwind Ting-Lu was annoying, welcome Gouging Fire, who can do the same with more chip and more offensive pressure. It loses hazards but gains longevity.

-snip-

I would love to hear others thoughts about this.
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You are an evil person. I can already see hazard stack teams using this. Since everyone plans for the 3 main sets, this is a good way to catch them off guard. I would have teammate suggestions, but I don't want to encourage this from a mon with more defensive bulk than Skarmory. This could be even worse if you make it specially defensive since most folks try to counter it with special attackers. Burning Bulwark hands out the burns. Or you could pair it with another phaser like Ting Lu to be really obnoxious.

And for the guy saying Breaking Swipe would make it more defensive, I disagree. Phasing moves are 1000% better on a tank in this meta. You rack up hazard chip and you get rid of the entire setup boost instead of just one attack stage. It's also better against Heatran. And the fairy immunity doesn't make a difference because both moves are Dragon type.
 
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Anchor9 said:
Thanks for all the answers. I’m just wondering since CAP has all those Pokémon and an additional 33 threats to deal with and Psychic Terrain still manages to be good (and none of the CAPs really abuse it at all).
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Not going to go into much detail since this is an OU Thread, but the TL;DR is that defensive poison-types are absolutely everywhere in cap. Which is great for psyspam cause not only can they can abuse this, but it also makes Rillaboom (the archetype's greatest nemesis) worse.
 
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Anchor9 said:
I want to mention a Gouging Fire set that was on everyone’s mind before someone said, “Wait, Band Proto-Attack 2HKOes Dozo in Sun.”

The set I’m talking about is true defensive GF.

True Defensive Gouging Fire

:sv/gouging Fire:

Gouging Fire @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: (Insert Tera)
EVs: (Insert Optimal EV spread)
(Insert Optimal Nature)
- Heat Crash
- Dragon Tail
- Burning Bulwark
- Morning Sun

You thought Whirlwind Ting-Lu was annoying, welcome Gouging Fire, who can do the same with more chip and more offensive pressure. It loses hazards but gains longevity. It also beats Balloon Ghold. Heat Crash is over Flare Blitz since it doesn’t want to take recoil and most of its main targets (Fairy Types) take 120 BP from it anyways. Everything else is Dragon Tailed. It would waste plenty of Booster Energies and This would function well on hazard stack, as it punishes Rapid Spin removal attempts with Burning Bulwark, while Corv takes loads of damage trying to Defog. This kinda gets wrecked by Primarina though.

Teamates:
(Wanna put a note that I’m terrible at teambuilding so someone could probably come up with something better)

:sv/gliscor: :sv/samurott hisui: - Set hazards and bring Knock support so that Dragon Tail does something. Gliscor is also a Ground immunity.

:sv/gholdengo:- Aids with keeping hazards down and puts pressure on Fairy types.

:sv/Rillaboom:- Provides passive healing and takes out Primarina.

:sv/weavile: :sv/meowscarada: - Knockers that bring high offensive pressure and can sweep with the amount of chip Gouging Fire will apply to the opponent.

I would love to hear others thoughts about this.
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i wonder, would torkoal be a worthwhile partner for this set? sun teams usually have a more offensive bent because the weather is only there for a limited time, but sun synergizes quite well with morning sun, removes other weathers that are pesky for any gouging set, boosts your already-strong heat crashes, and gives you a proto boost. you can proto your defense and turn yourself into a monstrous tank that can still dish out good damage, or proto attack to easily bait people into unfavorable switches thinking you're a more offensive set while also doing tons of damage with heat crash. also, torkoal is decent at hazard removal, so if you're really confident in your hazard-control skills you might even be able to run an item besides boots (though i'd personally stick to them)
 
Let's just move on now...

On a new note, I do think Roaring Moon will be the next suspect simply because it feels like the easiest thing to get people to agree on getting out of OU.
 
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BolTingBlazie said:
Let's just move on now...

On a new note, I do think Roaring Moon will be the next suspect simply because it feels like the easiest thing to get people to agree on getting out of OU.
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As things stand. it's not particularly likely any specific mons are getting banned. Oftentimes, throughout a suspect test, people start digging for new ways to counter a specific mon, which slightly shifts the meta towards another mon being banworthy. When moon eventually gets ST'd, the same thing is going to happen. I do think moon might be broken enough to get voted out on the ST, but my hopes aren't particularly high considering what happened with gouging and kyurem.
 
RainWaiv said:
As things stand. it's not particularly likely any specific mons are getting banned. Oftentimes, throughout a suspect test, people start digging for new ways to counter a specific mon, which slightly shifts the meta towards another mon being banworthy. When moon eventually gets ST'd, the same thing is going to happen. I do think moon might be broken enough to get voted out on the ST, but my hopes aren't particularly high considering what happened with gouging and kyurem.
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Honestly to build off this, I genuinely think that unbanning Zamazenta Crowned would be a closer vote than any suspect we do right now. Is it a good idea to even test it? Probs not, but I think it kind of shows how awkward testing is in the tier right now. People broadly are unhappy with the tier, but if you ask people what the problem is with the tier you will get all sorts of different answers. People will say Gholdengo, Kyurem, Gouging Fire, Raging Bolt, Ogerpon, Kingambit, Dragapult, Roaring Moon, and what have you. But I think it is kinda telling both Kyurem and Gouging did not get the banhammer. Obviously, a big part of that is due to how the meta has adapted to them, but it also is kinda telling that this gen in particular, six of our eleven public suspect tests have failed. Yeah, part of that is the OU council being a lot more willing to exercise quickbans; outside of Volc in DLC1, I feel most of the mons quickbanned would have met a decisive majority for a ban.

I could make a post on why Zamazenta Crowned is the only Uber that is even a remotely reasonable test, but I feel all that would do is bring in the unban Lugia crowd, and that sounds miserable. I'll just comment that right now, the meta is in a serviceable spot but not one a lot of folks like, but there isnt much we can realisitcally do imo.
 
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