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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Overturning the result of a community suspect with any sort of alternative tiering mechanism is entirely off the table. This would be a misuse (abuse) of power.
Exactly, another suspect could happen but only if demand remains for Kyurem, instantly banning things would go against the way Smogon works.
Scratch the Kokoloko idea anyway it's not like it will get support, considering the fact things are not bad enough here for people to consider it
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Honestly, it might get some support. The meta is definitely in a terrible place, and no one can come to a general consensus why, but there are some glaring problem children right now (moon, waterpon, etc.) and koko is a way to definitively find out what those problems are very quickly. Clear off some problems, see how the meta is, and consider unbanning them if it would be healthy after a week or two.
There are two major, for lack of a better word, factions that are going to be very, very, very against this. And kill all hope of this occurring for the rest of the generation.
The tiering purists are never going to be truly on board. This group of people are the tiering nerds, especially the tiering council, who are predisposed to working within the boundaries of the already accepted Smogon Tiering framework, of which Kokoloko Tiering is essentially in disagreement with. Kokoloko Tiering is not just a tool that Smogon tiering uses, as it is still pretty much against the core philosophy of Smogon tiering which is to use a innocent before guilty view of individual game elements. Kokoloko Tiering is literally about guilty before innocent. On top of this, some have proposed that we are basically past the point where Quickbans would be acceptable, and Kokoloko is effectively a string of quickbans together.
One thing to understand is that while there have been Smogon firsts this generation, none of it is actually truly a first, and some of it is not actually for what some have said. For instance, Sleep Clause was not axed because of it being incompatible with cartridge, but because it was the simplest solution to not ban one or more Pokemon. It was not an attempt to rock the boat, even if those who wanted to rock the boat were totally on board (like me!). It was still in line with trying to ban the least Pokemon possible while being the cleanest, most minimal and simple banlist possible..
And on top of that, it will never get past the staunch anti-ban sentiment that has waived through a lot of people. The idea that any Pokemon is sacred and banning them may cause more problems than solutions has become a staple of recent suspect tests and discourse beyond the metagame discussion thread, and while this group is not a majority in any way, it is slowly growing and is the other group that would stop this from happening. The idea that broken checking broken will bring a good varied metagame is not going away soon, and it is not going to accept Kokoloko Tiering, which has the philosophy that we should ban anything that looks guilty to create a stable metagame, and then test things down to see if they rock the boat.
Kokoloko Tiering isn't a bad idea, but especially right now, you are not going to get it passed.
Ignoring the irony of blocking the suspecting of the clearly broken and uncompetitive game mechanic because there’s not enough community support, only to waste time suspecting the most supported suspects and they end up not getting banned anyway;
The scramble to find the Next Bad Thing (or even introduce even *stronger* threats to the metagame) to try and find some semblance of balance would be even funnier if it wasn’t just so infuriating.
All we’ve really learned is that this community is incredibly *reactionary* and if we continue to just chase the next Pokémon to make even the smallest of waves on the ladder or tournament, when all it takes is a couple weeks of focus to find out it was never as big of a problem as suspected, then we will continue to get nowhere.
I don’t even have any suggestions because I just think it’s a pretty safe bet to assume the reason it’s so difficult for us to be able to pin down which threats are legitimately overpowered is because everyone getting access to a one-off, move/item-independent Protean or Adaptability boost is managing to make the metagame consistently volatile.
Like idk trying to play Spot The Uber in this meta just seems idiotic right now, I'm sorry.
The scramble to find the Next Bad Thing (or even introduce even *stronger* threats to the metagame) to try and find some semblance of balance would be even funnier if it wasn’t just so infuriating.
All we’ve really learned is that this community is incredibly *reactionary* and if we continue to just chase the next Pokémon to make even the smallest of waves on the ladder or tournament, when all it takes is a couple weeks of focus to find out it was never as big of a problem as suspected, then we will continue to get nowhere.
I don’t even have any suggestions because I just think it’s a pretty safe bet to assume the reason it’s so difficult for us to be able to pin down which threats are legitimately overpowered is because everyone getting access to a one-off, move/item-independent Protean or Adaptability boost is managing to make the metagame consistently volatile.
Like idk trying to play Spot The Uber in this meta just seems idiotic right now, I'm sorry.
Terastal certainly complicates things for sure, but then we have a mon like Gouging Fire that seems problematic, but has enough counterplay that overlaps between sets and the defensive sets to be reasonable enough, and it turned out that it wasn't really that much of a problem once people figure out the answers like what happened with the Zamazenta-H test. Trying to figure out who the most broken pokemon between Bolt, Moon, Waterpon, and Kyurem just feels impossible sometimes due to all these different factors going into each one that makes them broken. Tera certainly doesn't help at all but there is a little more to it. Point being when you have 4 nearly equally broken mons, how are supposed to tell which one is the most broken? That seems to be the current state of things.
I doubt Wogerpon will get enough support to get banned, if Kyurem and GG were not, she won’t either since she is less problematic.
Anyway, the month is almost over, what changes do you expect in the tier? Who do you expect to drop and who do you expect to rise?
Anyway, the month is almost over, what changes do you expect in the tier? Who do you expect to drop and who do you expect to rise?
This sort of logic is just… and no offense… asinine. The same logic was used during the Archaludon suspect by a few doom posters and guess what happened? Big Bridge got banned.
This also ignores context and nuance. While Kyurem remaining is somewhat controversial and it remains potentially broken, Gouging was adapted to during the suspect and a notable majority felt it wasn’t broken like they thought at the start. It definitely is strong, but not problematic to the level Wellspring is or even Kyurem.
kinda hope for latias to rise(but thats just life lmfao)
anyways boulder def dropping, serp might as well prolly unless if it for some reason is thriving again, maybe deo-s and ribombee will rise again too honestly
Rise? Garg is sure to rise in April. Maybe Ribombee and Dirge might rise as well.
Drop? Iron Bouldmid.
Darkrai might drop as a fluke like Deo-S did, but it has seen a comeback in viability and is genuinely good so maybe Darkrai stays.
Meowscarada I think might drop. Boulder I think drops and goes right to UUBL because I don't think it lasts since it would be quite restricting on uu since it would mandate Lokix on every team to deal with it due to how fast booster boulder is.
Serp might drop for obvious reasons.
I expect Weavile usage to go up more, as Weavile has been getting way more popular lately
Maybe a Deoxys-Speed rise since Deoxys-Speed seems like an anomaly of a pokemon that is way better here than in UU
Garg will most likely rise, though I hope it doesn't because its annoying af to fight against (though not broken). I could also see iron moth rising, that's been getting more attention, and ursaluna, though I think that's probably not going to happen.
Drops are serperior and iron Bouldmid (thank you 658Greninja for that pun). I'm hoping heatran doesn't drop (obviously).
i think it comes down to the fact we've had more time with waterpon, looking back yeah arch was busted it carried rain on its BACK and electro shot was a busted move for the fact even if it didnt hit you still got that boost, but with wellspring you get an idea on how it works
trailblaze?well now it cant hit as hard and water absorb clod can toxic you
u turn?now it cant encore
encore?cant raise its speed and cant pivot out
that's just how i see it though, i may be wrong but i feel like more counterplays developed for waterpon(less than what most of us might like, but still) than a mon like kyurem which really just has glowking and the occasional blissey(not including stall teams) for the specs/special side
hazards too, obviously all of these are known ways to put roadblocks on waterpon but from what i've seen waterpon basically does great into everything that isn't more offensive than it(moon and pult being what come to mind)
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but if you do it as a single-day afd gag, then no one will get mad
(dooooo iiiiit, you know you want to)
(except leave raging bolt alone because i did the afd sprite for it)
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garganacl has no business being stuck in UUBL limbo for how genuinely good it is rn. i would also like to add that skeledirge and deoxys-S are both still very good and deserve to rise back up to OU, even if their usage doesn't reflect any of that
as for drops, i don't know what could drop to UU besides barraskewda. iron boulder could maybe drop but i don't doubt it barely staying OU for another month, same with serperior. i also haven't really been seeing meowscarada on ladder lately so i'm not sure if that'll stay in OU
Pack a tusk or zamazenta kingambit problem solved, anyway fair opinion. U can say moon has counterplay but i personally think rmoon is more of a fast powerful stall or balance breaker that's still useful vs other offense that helps to open the door for other sweepers on ho teams while secondarily being a sweeper that has the chance to sweep itself in right circumstance, I think most teams that use it know that... still soo good anyways
Until it tera fairys and uses tera blast (finch used a lum set with that moveset in SPL) or it uses brick break.
Honestly, I think moon has a lot of room to explore, basically the only set it has is booster acrobatics, which while amazing, is predictable, with the only difference being taunt vs e-quake. Mark my words, once people experiment with moon, people will see the light (or maybe the experimentation will be a bust and I will be proven extremely wrong, but who knows ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)
Also deo s hazard lead= garbage, source: I built my very 1st team with it played good 300-400 games swapped it out eventually team became so much btr, too many sash dark type running around on ladder, maybe im not the best source so u don't have to take my word xdd... u can argue then don't lead deo into these dark types but its still problematic if u want ill elaborate. 4 atks seems good but rather run booster energy mons over that. Deo s = bad imo
A set with stealth rocks/spikes, psycho boost and coverage (usually ice beam and superpower) is great. Pure deo-s hazard lead is bad, I do agree with that. It simply does not have enough to be a good suicide lead, glimm has toxic spikes, mortal spin and good damage, while hamurott has good damage and ability to ignore magic bounce. Deo-S has decent damage, but not enough to differentiate itself. By pivoting it in and out of battle, getting hazards up and revenge killing mons (which it is amazing at due to its speed stat), it can be a real nuisance, especially lefties sets which have suprising amounts of longevity which seem to stick around longer than they should.
TLDR, Deo-S is decent, but people were just using it wrong, it needs to be preserved throughout the game.
I barely see Deo-S on ladder. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think it's rising, it's lost the limelight that it had before.
On an unrelated tangent, I feel like Corv has been a severely underrated mon throughout this gen. I've heard numerous predictions before tiering shifts that it's going to be UU, especially around the time that Skarmory dropped, but I think even despite the cheesestring plaguing OU, and the continued threats of fire frog and fire moth, it's still managed to keep a solid presence throughout the tier, even if its a far cry from it's defining legacy in SWSH. Even if it does end up dropping, I'm proud of the knight for sticking it out this long in this powercrept hellscape.
I'm convinced many people just don't use D-Speed correctly. I'm also guessing many sets are also built a bit inefficiently because the typical recommended full speed invested is wrong. You simply can't count on D-Speed as your form of speed control because of the boosted metagame. But mons like Pult and Zama are in somewhat similar situations with their speed tier. D-Speed is faster than both with no speed EVs and only a + speed nature, freeing up all your EVs for elsewhere.
On the other hand, max speed + nature D-speed doesn't even outspeed Jolly or Timid booster speed Iron Treads or Scarf Enamorus. You aren't going to outrun most relevant BE or Scarf mons even with full investment. So why bother? IMO, there's really no need to worry about the boosted metagame with it. When I run an attacking set, I go 252 EVs in Atk and SpAtk with only a + speed nature. No speed EVs. Hazard leads likely also run a + speed nature and get away with minimal speed EVs compared to maxing it out like most recommended sets do. It is simply a waste. You could run more bulk and/or power EVs. It would be a lot more efficient to let its teammates worry about the boosted metagame like most players do with Pult.
Problem solved? How? Tusk loses to Tera Flying Acrobatics. So can Zama. Kingambit loses to EQ coverage and no Tera or Tera Fairy since Sucker Punch is resisted. Now that I think of it, Tusk also loses to Tera Fairy. Zama is hit super effectively by Fairy Tera Blast, and depending on Moon's boosts and if it is Zama's first time in or not, it can be vulnerable to it. Problem not solved. It's highly situational at best.
And if you think you can solve it with a Tera for Tusk, Zama, or Gambit, you had better deal enough damage in return that first Tera turn. Otherwise, you'll be vulnerable to getting KO'd by different Moon coverage and not stop it.
On the other hand, max speed + nature D-speed doesn't even outspeed Jolly or Timid booster speed Iron Treads or Scarf Enamorus. You aren't going to outrun most relevant BE or Scarf mons even with full investment. So why bother? IMO, there's really no need to worry about the boosted metagame with it. When I run an attacking set, I go 252 EVs in Atk and SpAtk with only a + speed nature. No speed EVs. Hazard leads likely also run a + speed nature and get away with minimal speed EVs compared to maxing it out like most recommended sets do. It is simply a waste. You could run more bulk and/or power EVs. It would be a lot more efficient to let its teammates worry about the boosted metagame like most players do with Pult.
Problem solved? How? Tusk loses to Tera Flying Acrobatics. So can Zama. Kingambit loses to EQ coverage and no Tera or Tera Fairy since Sucker Punch is resisted. Now that I think of it, Tusk also loses to Tera Fairy. Zama is hit super effectively by Fairy Tera Blast, and depending on Moon's boosts and if it is Zama's first time in or not, it can be vulnerable to it. Problem not solved. It's highly situational at best.
And if you think you can solve it with a Tera for Tusk, Zama, or Gambit, you had better deal enough damage in return that first Tera turn. Otherwise, you'll be vulnerable to getting KO'd by different Moon coverage and not stop it.
The main thing Deo-S had going for it in terms of leads was that it could consistently win in a lead-off vs. both tusk and glimmora on account of having a 140bp psychic move (that doesn't proc toxic debris). Deo-S's viability is directly tied to the viability of these two as lead options, and with mons such as gliscor doing that job much better, there's little reason to use glimmora/tusk to lead, and thus no reason to use Deo-S.
It gets Ice Beam for Gliscor.
I would actually say go 152+ because that outspeeds +1 kyurem, which can stop a dd or scarf set (which is hella underrated rn) from getting out of control, or if you don't care about kyurem, 104+ because that outspeeds scarf lando-t and +1 gouging.
While you are correct that it outspeeds everything, Deo-S should be used to outspeed some slower +1 mons, which can be a lot more devestating. With the first ev spread, you can go 176/180 evs and the second ev spread you can go 200/204, which is still plenty powerful.