Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[Heatranator]

it's actually hilarious how bad deo-d is at its job. imagine being minmaxed for defense but outclassed as a defensive mon by a frailer version of yourself

Honestly, take 40 from it's speed and add 20 to each of it's defensive stats. Attack and speed have 180 in their stats, so why not defense?
The reason why I didn't take it out of the attacking stats is because it can ko tusk from full with psycho boost, which is funny. Technically Deo-S is an amazing tusk counter, but it is so bad otherwise. It's really let down by its HP stat.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Honestly, take 40 from it's speed and add 20 to each of it's defensive stats. Attack and speed have 180 in their stats, so why not defense?
The reason why I didn't take it out of the attacking stats is because it can ko tusk from full with psycho boost, which is funny. Technically Deo-S is an amazing tusk counter, but it is so bad otherwise. It's really let down by its HP stat.

it would've been a completely different story for the deoxys forms if they'd figured out how to program form-based hp changes in gen 3. deo-d could've been insane. but they just had to cripple it with that absolutely atrocious base hp

 

[Heatranator]

it would've been a completely different story for the deoxys forms if they'd figured out how to program form-based hp changes in gen 3. deo-d could've been insane. but they just had to cripple it with that absolutely atrocious base hp

Smogon community: Smogon, can we have Lugia?
Smogon: We have Lugia at home
Lugia at home:

 

[RS25802580]

I’ve started using regular Grasspon and it’s… surprisingly good. Compresses encore support, knock support, emergency speed control, and a surprise late game cleaner. You lose out on the extra power of Waterpon, but in return you can run Boots and pack a surprise speed boost with Tera. Matches up better against Garg and can shut it down with encore. Defiant is also a cool ability now that Lando is more common. Also, a fun interaction is swapping into Corviknight’s defog, getting a +2 attack boost, and then encoring it into defog to get yet another attack boost :)

Grasspon doesn’t work on every team, but for balance builds wanting an emergency speed control, Garg check, and cheesey wincon it can really shine.

 

[Heatranator]

Ogerpon-Wellspring (F) @ Wellspring Mask
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 76 HP / 180 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Superpower
- Ivy Cudgel
- Horn Leech
This is a waterpon set that I've concocted that is pretty disgusting. Why is that? Well, with this ev spread, it can live a 5 allies supreme overlord boosted kowtow kleave from bulky gambit from full or an offensive kingambit 5 allies supreme overlod boosted sucker punch from full.
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 271-319 (84.6 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 270-318 (84.3 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Then, it can hit back with a superpower. Pretty disgusting right?

 

[YubelVT]

I can see tyranitar and excadrill rising together at some point as an anti meta weather. Sand Rush Drill outspeeds most of the meta and with SD or Band hits insanely hard

 

[GummyRowlets]

I can see Tyranitar and excadrill rising together at some point as an anti-meta weather. Sand Rush Drill outspends most of the meta and with SD or Band hits insanely hard

Honestly, I don't personally agree with this statement I've seen around. Although a deadly duo, ttar plethora of weaknesses make it a liability to any team right away, and being weak to both the most used mons, Kambit and Tusk, is bad when you can't do much back if it's a physical set. Even special ttar can't OHKO tusk: 252+ SpA Tyranitar Ice Beam (90 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 288-340 (77.4 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Excadrill is also not fantastic offensively in the tier. Common walls such as Skarmory, Great tusk, Lando, Gliscor, Dondozo, Corviknight, and Iron Defense Zama all wall it pretty well reliably even if it's an sd set. Even choice band sets are hard to navigate, just due to how many switch in there are for ground and steel-type attackers. I will say that air balloon sets are prob the best for negating its weakness to ground and forcing your opponent to find a way to pop the balloon before you bring in your ground type. I feel it's a hype duo but prob will never find any success in my opinion.

 

[YubelVT]

Honestly, I don't personally agree with this statement I've seen around. Although a deadly duo, ttar plethora of weaknesses make it a liability to any team right away, and being weak to both the most used mons, Kambit and Tusk, is bad when you can't do much back if it's a physical set. Even special ttar can't OHKO tusk: 252+ SpA Tyranitar Ice Beam (90 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 288-340 (77.4 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Excadrill is also not fantastic offensively in the tier. Common walls such as Skarmory, Great tusk, Lando, Gliscor, Dondozo, Corviknight, and Iron Defense Zama all wall it pretty well reliably even if it's an sd set. Even choice band sets are hard to navigate, just due to how many switch in there are for ground and steel-type attackers. I will say that air balloon sets are prob the best for negating its weakness to ground and forcing your opponent to find a way to pop the balloon before you bring in your ground type. I feel it's a hype duo but prob will never find any success in my opinion.

2 pokemon do not an entire team make (except in metronome battles). You would obviously be supporting the sand duo with the other 4 pokemon and, with the assumption that a genuinely talented player is building the team, it's not the most unrealistic thing in the world for the flaws of ttar and drill would be compensated for

 

[viivian]

you're telling me excatar is coming back? perhaps SV can be salvaged

View attachment 619494
I’ve started using regular Grasspon and it’s… surprisingly good. Compresses encore support, knock support, emergency speed control, and a surprise late game cleaner. You lose out on the extra power of Waterpon, but in return you can run Boots and pack a surprise speed boost with Tera. Matches up better against Garg and can shut it down with encore. Defiant is also a cool ability now that Lando is more common. Also, a fun interaction is swapping into Corviknight’s defog, getting a +2 attack boost, and then encoring it into defog to get yet another attack boost :)

Grasspon doesn’t work on every team, but for balance builds wanting an emergency speed control, Garg check, and cheesey wincon it can really shine.

teal mask ogerpon is a great mon and it's been one of my personal favorites to use since DLC1, the speed boost it gets from tera plus defiant to hard punish landorus-T switch-ins just makes it so much stronger into offensive teams than ogerpon-W could ever be. my only issue with it is that its pure grass typing means it has some annoying 4MSS and requires team support for dealing with at least 1-2 pokemon. still a very scary pokemon to face and very fun to use

 

[GummyRowlets]

2 pokemon do not an entire team make (except in metronome battles). You would obviously be supporting the sand duo with the other 4 pokemon and, with the assumption that a genuinely talented player is building the team, it's not the most unrealistic thing in the world for the flaws of ttar and Drill would be compensated for

True to an extent but you would be putting yourself at a natural disadvantage using below-average Pokemon in OU. Any mediocre or bad Pokemon can be backed up to with a great team. Like how any team becomes 100x better once Kingambit is added. I'm just stating that I don't believe that exa and ttar will ever have a true place in the metagame, only a niche. Even if they are backed up by fantastic Pokemon, you will always be placed disadvantageously using them compared to your opponent. Now is this bad? Not at all, it can catch people off guard. Niche pokemon always appear such are Ogerpon grass, hoopa, Volcanion, iron moth, and etc. niche pokemon can and will work sometimes, they're just worse or less consistent then OU staples.

 

[Delibird Heart]

Here's a replay that exemplifies what I was talking about the other day on the subject of rain teams: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2090926248

Although dnite and waterpon are good into rain, they're not unsurmountable obstacles. A well built rain team should have ways to creature pressure besides barra alone. Also, it's important to note that once tera has been exhausted, dnite really becomes much less of a threat:

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Barraskewda: 221-260 (84 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Without tera normal, even +1 adamant espeed fails to ohko, and dnite cannot tank rain-boosted liquidation that well once multiscale has been broken. This replay also demonstrates Overqwil being a good partner to barra; even though I was forced to sack most of its hp in order to preserve pelipper for Zama, the menace of it's poweful unboosted gunk shot was enough to force enemy tera, making the end game much easier for barra.

Bonus replay of the most disgusting gambit comeback of all time:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2090676448-klbbtese8wb3yalruiibott63ru17plpw

 

[Soiramio3000]

Are there any community surveys going on right now?
If not when is the next one?

I haven't played pokemon or used the forums for several days so please let me know if I missed a recent one.

(I am busy playing mgsv).

 

[viivian]

nope, iirc the council even considered cutting down on the frequency of surveys

 

[East Coast Elite]

Finchinator I want to call your attention to Darkrai as something that could be surveyed or very bottom on on the radar. It’s speed tier, 90/90 bulk, typing, and nasty plot make it have very little switch ins. It especially gives balance and BO a hard time. I’ve seen it a lot in the 1700/1800s and have even played one EV’d to be more bulky and take priority hits and KO back after a NP boost. The only real reliable switch in is Ting Lu, which is obviously limited to certain team styles and even then a +2 ice beam or focus blast can do serious damage. FWIW I don’t think this mon should’ve been allowed back into an already chaotic tier in the first place, but I know that wasn’t the councils choice.

 

[RaikouLover]

Also has a really bad problem of relying on Sash to survive any hit, which is notoriously unreliable. When you've got threats like Weavile, Darkrai, Roaring Moon, Walking Wake, Great Tusk, Dragapult, Landorus-Therian, and a lot of powerful mons that can 2HKO/OHKO it with neutral attacks, Ceruledge really doesn't look that appealing.

Sash? Bro. Ceruledge is not frail. Y’all not using it right. It’s a priority sweeper and wall breaker. Damn near 6-0s stall. Pult and Wake get wrecked by Shadow Sneak and you can Tera out of the others while healing up with Bitter Blade.

 

[FayaWizard]

Sash? Bro. Ceruledge is not frail. Y’all not using it right. It’s a priority sweeper and wall breaker. Damn near 6-0s stall. Pult and Wake get wrecked by Shadow Sneak and you can Tera out of the others while healing up with Bitter Blade.

+2 252 Atk Ceruledge Shadow Sneak vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 138-163 (40.3 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ceruledge: 378-446 (129.8 - 153.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Ceruledge Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Dondozo: 115-136 (22.8 - 26.9%) -- 43.5% chance to 4HKO
+2 252 Atk Ceruledge Poltergeist vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Dondozo: 76-91 (15 - 18%) -- possible 6HKO
0 Atk Dondozo Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ceruledge: 206-246 (70.7 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Great 6-0 against stall

And requiring Tera to accomplish anything kinda sucks especially since you're still open to revenge kills afterwards due to your poor speed.

 

[Finchinator]

Finchinator I want to call your attention to Darkrai as something that could be surveyed or very bottom on on the radar. It’s speed tier, 90/90 bulk, typing, and nasty plot make it have very little switch ins. It especially gives balance and BO a hard time. I’ve seen it a lot in the 1700/1800s and have even played one EV’d to be more bulky and take priority hits and KO back after a NP boost. The only real reliable switch in is Ting Lu, which is obviously limited to certain team styles and even then a +2 ice beam or focus blast can do serious damage. FWIW I don’t think this mon should’ve been allowed back into an already chaotic tier in the first place, but I know that wasn’t the councils choice.

Darkrai has my attention, but it definitely took a while for people to normalize the “good” sets and it’s still adjusting. I’d argue quite a few Pokemon are more pressing right now and I am curious to see how it develops in the interim.

Community pretty overwhelmingly supported freeing it, so not much to say on that front.

 

[East Coast Elite]

Darkrai has my attention, but it definitely took a while for people to normalize the “good” sets and it’s still adjusting. I’d argue quite a few Pokemon are more pressing right now and I am curious to see how it develops in the interim.

Community pretty overwhelmingly supported freeing it, so not much to say on that front.

yeah I don’t think it’s top priority at all. Maybe even a pipe dream with the way bans have gone this gen. but it’s def going up in usage

 

[j0nathan]

Finchinator I want to call your attention to Darkrai as something that could be surveyed or very bottom on on the radar. It’s speed tier, 90/90 bulk, typing, and nasty plot make it have very little switch ins. It especially gives balance and BO a hard time. I’ve seen it a lot in the 1700/1800s and have even played one EV’d to be more bulky and take priority hits and KO back after a NP boost. The only real reliable switch in is Ting Lu, which is obviously limited to certain team styles and even then a +2 ice beam or focus blast can do serious damage. FWIW I don’t think this mon should’ve been allowed back into an already chaotic tier in the first place, but I know that wasn’t the councils choice.

While Darkrai can be hard to deal with due to it's good coverage it's definitely not broken. 125 Speed isn't that much with all the Booster Energy mons running around. It also suffers from 4MSS. Zamazenta and Dragapult both outspeed it and threaten K.Os or force it to tera. Kingambit and Raging Bolt also both have a good MU into it.

Edit: Well yeah apparently it doesn't have 4mss. Idk I just thought that it would really want NP, Dark Pulse, Ice Beam, Focus Blast and Sludge Bomb and that's 5 moves and it only has 4 moveslots. I'll see if there is a good explanation for 4mss online. :)
"Pokemon with 4MSS often feel like they need a 5th or 6th movepool to do what they ideally want to"
So yeah Darkrai is not a victim of 4mss cause it can make a viable set with 4 moves.

 

[Finchinator]

It also suffers from 4MSS.

Dark Pulse Ice Beam Sludge Bomb NP/Focus Blast @ EB/Sash/Boots/Berry, you can run knock or wisp if you want to I guess, but I don’t really view this as being plagued by 4MSS as it still covers the vast majority of opposing Pokemon

 

[veti]

yeah I don’t think it’s top priority at all. Maybe even a pipe dream with the way bans have gone this gen. but it’s def going up in usage

Gen 9 has had the largest amount of bans by a landslide, just because a couple didn't go through doesn't mean much. Kyurem and Gouging Fire were both adapted to and we've had over 20 bans go through earlier in the generation.

 

[East Coast Elite]

While Darkrai can be hard to deal with due to it's good coverage it's definitely not broken. 125 Speed isn't that much with all the Booster Energy mons running around. It also suffers from 4MSS. Zamazenta and Dragapult both outspeed it and threaten K.Os or force it to tera. Kingambit and Raging Bolt also both have a good MU into it.

I disagree with 4MSS, as Finch said Pulse, IB, Sludge/FB are fine and allow it to pick its counters. Further, while Pult can counter it, it obviously can’t switch into it, which means you may have to sac a Mon to set up that position. Good point with Zama, I’ll try it out.

 

[East Coast Elite]

Gen 9 has had the largest amount of bans by a landslide, just because a couple didn't go through doesn't mean much. Kyurem and Gouging Fire were both adapted to and we've had over 20 bans go through earlier in the generation.

I think Kyurem is still cracked but fair point. I would argue that the bans were very obviously broken mons. And the Kingambit 54% still stings.

 

[YubelVT]

Gen 9 has had the largest amount of bans by a landslide, just because a couple didn't go through doesn't mean much. Kyurem and Gouging Fire were both adapted to and we've had over 20 bans go through earlier in the generation.

and notably, the meta still sucks. we need more bans actually

 

[East Coast Elite]

I don’t think the meta sucks, I’m just

and notably, the meta still sucks. we need more bans actually

I’m more pointing this out as sort of an interesting development in the meta than a reason for more bans. I think the issues with the meta mostly stem from the top tier mons being so powerful it allows periphery pokemon that are good, but match up reliant, to go off more often since they can take advantage of common holes in teams.