Metagame NP: Stage 10 - I Must Apologise (post #76 NU Survey)

[Django]

Few thoughts on the slate mons before the inevitable bans:

tl;dr - pls ban Regidrago and let's see how everything else develops.

- Yeah this is definitely broken lol. Very little counterplay available (without running Bronzong on every team), and SubDD / Specs / Scarf all end up with different checks. Even scale shot draco meteor sets can lure things like Avalugg. This needs to go

- This can feel really powerful with the right support, but I think it does need to be played well to win. Whether its TSpikes with Sub / Protect, or Spikes with Roar, you ultimately still have to win the hazard battle and also dodge any stray knock offs. To me it feels like most games where Suicune wins it's a result of outplaying your opponent, but the slow nature of it makes it feel more obtuse compared to finding space to DD with something else and sweep. Don't think it's too much for now, especially with Vaporeon, Gastrodon, Quagsire, and even Tatsugiri / Toxicroak existing.

- Felt very strong at first, but seems to have dropped off a bit. It doesn't have enough coverage to hit everything, and has to pick well out of EQ / Taunt / Sub / Tera Fly or Grass or Electric. It can make some matchups feel painful, but it's also kept in check by any decent scarf mon, and priority moves as well...

- I actually think this mon is somewhat healthy. While it's +2 Adamant Tera Rock calcs are funny, it's ultimately hard to find space to SD, and it's very very frail. Having this strong priority I also think is healthy to keep other elements in check, like Sun / Armarouge. Personally don't think this needs to go just yet

- This feels like a great anti offense tool, as it eats up teams after a single boost. HDB and Weakness Policy sets are both cool, and it also deletes sun teams. Playing around it on balance is definitely possible, and Incineroar stops it completely. I actually think Lycan and Armarogue are adding quite a lot to the tier atm.

Drought / / / - Not sure sun needs to go quite yet either. It doesn't feel like a free win, but balance does struggle to cope with the power level of it. Lilligant-H does feel very strong with the Hustle / Wide Lens set, but again it's very very frail, and can be kept in check with Talonflame and Armarogue. More priority resistant though so I can see it being problematic.

- IDK, feels strong using it, but haven't seen enough of it on ladder. Probably becomes much more popular soon

/ / - Not sure I've seen any significant number of these. I couldn't even tell you what set they use that's actually strong let alone broken. I think there's a lot more exploration of these needed to understand where these mons fit

 

[Segetarius]

As someone not on the tiering council, my opinion is not super relevant but I'll put my 2 cents in anyways.

- BAN, I don't need to elaborate, anyone with half a brain cell can tell you that this mon is dumb.

- I understand that sun is not necessarily a free win, but hear me out, most of the mons that help to keep sun in check are mons that aren't the healthiest presence to begin with (looking at you Lycanroc-D). Frankly, the caliber of sun abusers has risen such that as long Drought is in the tier, it's going to be a pretty good matchup fish, and right now the number of matchup fishes is the very reason building feels so ass atm. Even if you ban Drought, the abusers are so good that I have no doubt manual sun will still be a thing. It's not even just Lilligant-H either, there's also Venusaur and Typh-H. To those people who think Drought should stay, I beg you to consider that the power level that its at rn (which is already rather high) is only after a week, think of the optimization that could occur given another few weeks. Don't spend all the time debating what the broken element of sun is the way we did with Hail last gen, for right now just ban Drought, we can re-evaluate once the tier is not so unstable.

- BAN. Don't get me wrong, there's a case of 4mss going on here, but honestly, so long as Gyara is running Sub, you're already 75% of the way there. Once you set up the Sub, you have to have something that is both strong enough to break the sub and fast enough to outspeed Gyara and status it afterwards, and it will get an opportunity to set up that Sub given its typing. Oh, but it's super reliant on Tera! Is it though? Every argument I've heard that tries to claim Gyara is OK falls under the "this mon exists in a vacuum" category. In a vacuum, Gyara is fine, sure, but it also has a supporting cast of 5 because we do in fact play 6v6 singles. If you can get rid of the opposing Water and/or Electric (both of which you should already have a plan for) then Gyara just gets to run away with the game. BTW, oftentimes when you find that you can afford to invest your tera, it tends to be game over.

- Honestly, I haven't seen enough of this mon to have formed any opinion on it, I also haven't built with it just yet.

- Do you remember Terrakion when it was here for a week? Yeah, this mon is better than Terrak in every way except for bulk, it's faster, stronger, has actual priority (one of Terrak's "weaknesses"), and will fuck you up. To those that are about to tell me that it's too frail to find a turn to SD consistently, I would like to point out that the CB set also exists, and it's not even that prediction reliant given how great Rock/Fighting coverage is. As for the SD set, you don't even need the boost to starting shredding everything, the SD is kinda just an extra perk if you happen to make a good read. LO Tough Claws boosted Accelerock/CC/Crunch are plenty powerful enough without the +2. BAN.

- A PSA to anyone using this mon: run Jolly bc you outspeed all Scarfers below base 110 (as opposed to being outrun by Scarf Shao with Adamant). Once you get the turn to Shell Smash (again, not if but when), your defensive counterplay is limited to.... Quag and Slowbro. Offensively, the only recourse you have is hoping that you chipped Cloy enough to kill it with priority (lives LO Accelerock from Lycan-D at -1 btw) or... have Scarfer that's faster, which if you're Jolly is limited to like Scarf Espeon, yeah have fun with that. BAN.

- BAN. Yeah this mon doesn't need sun to be absurd, Hustle is a hell of a drug.

- After more time playing the tier, I have to admit there are more offensive mons capable of posing a serious threat to this mon than I originally thought. However, that doesn't change that this mon single-handedly invalidates most bulkier teams. Falls more under the unhealthy than the broken category. Maybe doesn't get banned this slate but def not sticking around long term, it's a super toxic presence, especially as we ban more offensive mons capable of actually threatening it.

- Again, not enough experience to speak to whether or not it's broken. The biggest argument I've heard against it is priority being strong, but I'd be curious to see how that argument holds up if Lycan-D is banned and the ID set picks up in popularity.

I want to give an honorable mention to - I was not super impressed by it initially but as it turns out, a lot of the steels feel realllllly eh rn (not to mention taking a hefty chunk from Focus Blast), and besides steels, the best option you have is Muk-A, which is not an automatic addition to teams. Scarf outspeeds Shao, Boots sets really shit on bulky teams, and there's probably more to come. Keep a close eye on this thing.

 

[Rabia]

(Kiyo voted to ban Regidrago, Lilligant-Hisui, and Lycanroc-Dusk)

The votes are in, and Regidrago, Suicune, and Lilligant-Hisui are now banned from NU!


Regidrago was our only unanimous ban, and for good reason. With Terastallization, Fairy-types are no longer reliable walls to its Choice item sets and can be exploited as setup fodder by its Dragon Dance variants. Choice Specs sets had no real counters, and many checks were still 2HKOed by maximum strength Dragon Energy.


Suicune was one of my top-2 "get this bitch out of here" votes this slate. The VinCune variant carried hard many games and negated a lot of common counterplay with Pressure stalling and Substitute. Meanwhile, CroCune did much of the same by completely blanking defensive answers with Rest, and we even saw a lot of Roar usage on Suicune to exploit entry hazards, especially with teams that had Toxic Spikes. There's certainly Something to argue about a Pokemon as slow paced as Suicune in an offensive metagame, but even against offense teams I consistently found Suicune more than capable of doing the same disruption nonsense that it did to balance/defense teams.


Lilligant-H was a huge reason for why sun teams surged in this metagame, complementing the other threats very nicely by being the best option for a physical setup Pokemon. Whether you had Victory Dance or Swords Dance, Lilligant-H murdered teams after a boost and generally could cheese another if it needed to 6-0 opposing teams. But, the biggest kicker to Lilligant-H---and a big reason we acted on it instead of Drought on the first slate---was it wasn't limited to sun teams. Even on generic hyper offense, Hustle + Wide Lens sets with Victory Dance were incredibly potent sweepers with a checks pool limited to... Talonflame if I'm not Tera Blast Rock? Dragalge if I'm not Ice Spinner? Noivern if I... am Tera Blast Ghost...? Obviously, it can't have all three of these options at once, but you were typically covering most of your answers with one of the above anyway, and on hyper offense beating literally Every Check isn't nearly as important.

---


Gyarados and Lycanroc-D were very close ban votes, so they'll be monitored closely going forward and almost guaranteed to be on our next voting slate. Gyarados was cited as being too Tera reliant, whereas Lycanroc-D was too fragile to dominate teams in the way you'd expect it to, ESPECIALLY in a metagame so offense favored. Some of council believed this may have been because Swords Dance sets were the most common and that pure attacking variants may prove better/too good down the line.

I've been hearing generally very good praise of the tier so far, so let's keep that momentum going in the coming weeks :]

 

[BolTingBlazie]

(Kiyo voted to ban Regidrago, Lilligant-Hisui, and Lycanroc-Dusk)

The votes are in, and Regidrago, Suicune, and Lilligant-Hisui are now banned from NU!


Regidrago was our only unanimous ban, and for good reason. With Terastallization, Fairy-types are no longer reliable walls to its Choice item sets and can be exploited as setup fodder by its Dragon Dance variants. Choice Specs sets had no real counters, and many checks were still 2HKOed by maximum strength Dragon Energy.


Suicune was one of my top-2 "get this bitch out of here" votes this slate. The VinCune variant carried hard many games and negated a lot of common counterplay with Pressure stalling and Substitute. Meanwhile, CroCune did much of the same by completely blanking defensive answers with Rest, and we even saw a lot of Roar usage on Suicune to exploit entry hazards, especially with teams that had Toxic Spikes. There's certainly Something to argue about a Pokemon as slow paced as Suicune in an offensive metagame, but even against offense teams I consistently found Suicune more than capable of doing the same disruption nonsense that it did to balance/defense teams.


Lilligant-H was a huge reason for why sun teams surged in this metagame, complementing the other threats very nicely by being the best option for a physical setup Pokemon. Whether you had Victory Dance or Swords Dance, Lilligant-H murdered teams after a boost and generally could cheese another if it needed to 6-0 opposing teams. But, the biggest kicker to Lilligant-H---and a big reason we acted on it instead of Drought on the first slate---was it wasn't limited to sun teams. Even on generic hyper offense, Hustle + Wide Lens sets with Victory Dance were incredibly potent sweepers with a checks pool limited to... Talonflame if I'm not Tera Blast Rock? Dragalge if I'm not Ice Spinner? Noivern if I... am Tera Blast Ghost...? Obviously, it can't have all three of these options at once, but you were typically covering most of your answers with one of the above anyway, and on hyper offense beating literally Every Check isn't nearly as important.

---


Gyarados and Lycanroc-D were very close ban votes, so they'll be monitored closely going forward and almost guaranteed to be on our next voting slate. Gyarados was cited as being too Tera reliant, whereas Lycanroc-D was too fragile to dominate teams in the way you'd expect it to, ESPECIALLY in a metagame so offense favored. Some of council believed this may have been because Swords Dance sets were the most common and that pure attacking variants may prove better/too good down the line.

I've been hearing generally very good praise of the tier so far, so let's keep that momentum going in the coming weeks :]

I can understand Gyarados not getting the ban initially but Lycanroc-D doesn't even need to SD initially to blow past its checks. It just naturally hits that hard with its stone edges and close combats off of its tough claws boosted attacks. Sure Lycanroc-Dusk is fragile but its nigh impossible to switch around to start busting through stuff down here. Actually surprised Lycanroc-Dusk didn't get the banhammer. And it has accelerock on top of all that for priority so yeah, it has even less defensive counterplay than Gyarados does, since even if you tera defensively, even unboosted attacks are gonna blast through checks.

 

[Be13costa]

I'm having mixed feelings about those bans and not bans .

Good Job with those 3.

BAN RegiD was obvious. It literally it got free KOs on the switch with the scarf set dracoing other scarfers and energy dragon slower targets. On top of that was the best mixer attacker on the tier adding outrage to the mix. Plus DD sets and even specs. You would be wrong to not abuse in any team and would need to run at least 1 fairy an any not HO team. Obvious and good Ban.

BAN Lilligant-H was a beast. If I didn't play most of the month with webs/Gyarados for sure my perception would be that is more than broken. Even with webs and priority getting caught with Tera Rock or Tera Ghost lost me a couple of games that I would smash sun otherwise. Outside sun it was really good anyway even if not that common because the type overlap with Tsareena. Solid ban for allowing a gameplay that had little counterplay and wasn't really that interactive. How will sun survive without it? It loses a lot of it's power specially with other chlorophyl mons being underwhelming but will pop up from time to time the core of Ninetails, Venusaur and H-Thyp is solid.

NOT BAN Gyarados like the council said needs to tera otherwise you can't hit Tsareena/Brambleghast/Plume. Plus it needs to run Lum or any status breaks the mon and than it takes 25% from rocks for not running boots . And on top of all that you need to chose between snowball potential of Moxie or the ability to survive priority that intimidate gives you. Yeah we all had games that it looked unstoppable (specially in offense vs offense) and broken this past week and is one of the bests late game cleaner of the tier. But in the end is a mon that you know what will do and how to stop it. The fact that Physical Walls with status , Rocks , ANY electric move, priority can keep it in check and you know that it NEEDS to tera all that combined make me think that requires good notion of positioning it's a fair mon even if its really snowbally and powerful .

Here i think it could have being taken other actions and why

NOT BAN Suicune I can't talk much about it because only played against it. It was really good as a defensive back bone of many teams with roar/rest and Sub CM was good. Personally the brokenness came from games where Scald had 100% burn rate. Tera was surprisingly efficient on it as well. I have a little fear that banning it free a few offensive mons like Gyarados , Lycanroc-D, Iron Thorns, Cloyster ... Anyway is undeniable strong and you need to account to break otherwise you lose at team building (thats really bad) . The question is if it's more helpful than harmful . Remembers me a lot of the G-Brow discussion a couple of weeks ago but this time the ban hammer hit .

BAN Lycanroc-D this mon is stupid. It hits too hard and it's too fast. It set rocks, it endevors and it KOs you with priority and if you don't wanna get KO and swich it will hit like a truck any way with though claw CC . It SD and than Tera Rocks and kills you like extreme killer. Its amazing against offense and really good against balance. There are really few mons that had a clear win against it Brambleghast/Plume come to mind the ONLY viable mon that naturaly can KO it before it KO it first is Inteleon or some scarfers because others like Staraptor/H-Thyp/Chandy don't stand a chance without tera. It's too generically good and splashable and forces KOs that you just click buttons that is really similar to RegiD.

BAN The ID Stored Power Bulky set broke the tier. The way it punish any contact move is unreal. You can throw it in a Rapid Spin and get a free +2 on speed, you throw on a Koff and suddenly you are +2 speed +2 Special and because of Stored Power the +2 atk is huge. The biggest problem with this set is that you can run max HP and max DEF+ and hit 374 speed after 1 hit so you are faster than any relevant non scarfer that is not Talonflame . Its really safe to setup because you are bulky. It isn't unbeatable Umbreon/A-Muk walls it really well + Toxic. But is a mon that can blow holes in teams that win games on the spot and because how consistent and easy it does that it deserves the ban hammer.

 

[somebodyuknow2]

I say this as a biased stall player, but the fact that Torterra is only defensively countered by a Quagsire with a bad tera type (you need something like tera grass as the more generally useful tera steel doesn't work) is kind of absurd. Even a neutral tera type like Fairy can quite easily be muscled through with the tiniest bit of hazards and winning 50/50s with loaded dice bullet seed. Avalugg also doesn't work: +2 252 Atk Torterra Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 220-270 (55.8 - 68.5%) -- approx. 2HKO

 

[Serviperhater]

I say this as a biased stall player, but the fact that Torterra is only defensively countered by a Quagsire with a bad tera type (you need something like tera grass as the more generally useful tera steel doesn't work) is kind of absurd. Even a neutral tera type like Fairy can quite easily be muscled through with the tiniest bit of hazards and winning 50/50s with loaded dice bullet seed. Avalugg also doesn't work: +2 252 Atk Torterra Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 220-270 (55.8 - 68.5%) -- approx. 2HKO

other stall mons like ditto and sabeleye can come in countersweep or encore and torterra is pretty easy to offensively counter with any over base 80 scarfer

 

[LeonLeeds]

Since Mew isn't being banned anytime soon, I figured I play around with as many sets as possible. Thus led to the creation of hazard stack mew.

themewfromhell @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Encore
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes

As a lead for HO I prefer Lycan, bramble, or smeargle just because they are faster and can keep hazards off of your side of the field. Mew is so bulky I felt like I was wasting its full potential. This set has the flexibility to serve as a normal lead for offensive or balanced teams being able to get up multiple layers. The magic happens when the opponent tries to remove them. Faster mons like t-flame can be encored into defog. They are forced to switch out or risk losing their boots, leaving another mon to be knocked off. If mew remains healthy with lefties you can do this multiple times throughout the game. Then each time they come in to remove them they will get even weaker if you can knock their boots. Even setting up won't work against this mon. Common status-inflicting moves like scald or sludge bomb are punished with synchronize. This set compresses the imo 4 best moves in the game into one set, and it's demonic. It's super susceptible to taunt but I haven't seen the move a ton on either lycan or t-flame so far.

 

[Shengineer]

I heckin love Reuniclus

It can tank a wide variety of special hits, pressure the opponent with future sight and knock off, while making dark types second guess their switch-in due to focus blast.

Reuniclus @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 16 SpA / 240 SpD
Tera Type: Dark
Modest Nature
- Psychic Noise
- Future Sight
- Focus Blast
- Knock Off

I also believe the best partner for our favorite blobby boi might just be…

Krookodile!

No matter which set you’re running, the ability to threaten the steels and Pokémon like Muk-Alola, and your ability to tank ghost and dark type attacks when needed provide Reuniclus a lot of support.

Lastly, for the dark types that are completely immune to Future Sight, it’s advisable to bring a fighting type that can apply pressure. Mienshao is an obvious choice to complete the trio, but feel free to mess around with some others.

 

[Django]

Been playing around with grassy terrain and it feels very strong. This is the core, can't quite figure out the rest of the team yet:


Thwackey @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Grassy Surge
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 188 Def / 72 Spe
Impish Nature
- U-turn
- Grassy Glide
- Knock Off
- Wood Hammer


Necrozma @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Prism Armor
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Def / 172 Spe
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Photon Geyser
- Earth Power
- Moonlight

This is enough speed to hit 237, letting out outspeed 0 investment Tentacruel and max speed Torterra. Could probably run more bulk here tbh, but it never seems to die anyway.


Oricorio-Pom-Pom @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Dancer
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Roost
- Taunt
- Revelation Dance

Grassy terrain doesn't feel that optimised to me yet, nor does it seem overly broken yet. It can definitely get overwhelmed by powerful specs users, encore, and trick. This core definitely punishes passive play though, which I like a lot. Interested to see how this archetype develops.

 

[Nightingales]

You're using this Pokemon wrong.

Most people have been running a fairly standard set, and that's fine and dandy. But today, I'm here to preach the virtues of not just sending Galvantula in as a suicide lead.

Galvantula @ Life Orb / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Compound Eyes
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web / VOLT SWITCH
- Thunder
- Bug Buzz
- Energy Ball

See this? This here Pokemon is a menace. If you bring it in during the early-game, it'll probably put down webs, you'll chip away at something, and it'll die. Then, five turns later, you've either won the game or your webs are gone. It's a fairly feast or famine tool. But turn Galvantula into a pivot that's got coverage to hit pretty much the entire tier, can set speed control, and also turn the tables on common switch-ins? People see Galvantula and go 'alright, this is gonna be a webs lead.' Don't do that. Get your hazards up early if the team is able to pressure the other, by all means. But webs are much more valuable in the mid-game, and Galvantula is being slept on both as a pivot and a support mon.

TLDR: Stop leading this fucker, it's better when stuff's chipped down in the midgame.

 

[Django]

Few more thoughts on this thing and the meta in general after playing more:


Necrozma @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Prism Armor
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Def / 172 Spe
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Photon Geyser
- Earth Power
- Moonlight

No one is preparing for necro. Feels like most teams are running HO, or some relatively passive balance (ChanseyLugg sucks please stop using it), and this chews through them once Grassy Terrain is up. They aren’t really prepared for any bulky set up sweepers - I think CM + Grassy Seed Mew or Uxie would be having similar success, although Prism Armour does set Necro apart from those two. I definitely prefer Photon Geyser is better for immediate power to break down some of the following checks, and also means you don’t necessarily need to waste Tera on Quagsire.

As for checking / beating this thing, there's definitely counter play:
- Haze Vaporeon, Roar Umbreon, Roar Sp. Def Mudsdale, Roar Swampert, Haze / Dragon Tail Milotic, Acid Spray / Clear Smog Muk (forces tera). All of these are actually great against Armarouge as well, and Muk is amazing vs Oricorio. If you can force Necro out once, it becomes a lot easier to overpower it without the Grassy Seed boost. Replay of Muk + Vaporeon beating it.
- Tera Dark Chansey without T wave is not a counter, it loses to crits / Earth Power drops. I don’t know why I saw this so many times lol
- Fast Encore is something I haven't seen any of but feels really good right now: Mew, Whimsicott, Scream Tail all seem underutilised.
- Trick + Specs users can also cripple or overwhelm it before it sets up - Typhlosion-H and Chandelure are great atm.

Over the course of 60+ games I haven’t seen any other grassy terrain teams, and the only Necro I ran into was Trick Room. I don't feel like people are preparing or adapting to Necro yet, and I'm actually pretty confident it's not broken with all of the stuff I listed above.

Also have seen very few Mew and to a lesser extent Armarouge, despite how amazing that thing is. Is ladder just not centralising around these for some reason? I'm still not aware of what Mew can do that makes it relevant, but it's got so many options I'm sure that will change.

Oricorio-Pom-Pom is also barely getting any usage, and again I don't think is being properly prepared for. Personally I'd like to see the meta develop further before too much drastic action is taken. There's a lot of defensive toys we've been given which don't feel optimised yet, and a lot of greedy teams running around (Scald + Flip Turn Vaporeon instead of Haze, for example). Over time I expect these defensive cores to become better and more focused on threats like Necro, similar to how Gyarados now seems to have settled into a comfortable place in the meta.

 

[Rabia]

Also have seen very few Mew and to a lesser extent Armarouge, despite how amazing that thing is. Is ladder just not centralising around these for some reason? I'm still not aware of what Mew can do that makes it relevant, but it's got so many options I'm sure that will change.

Mew does most of the same as Necrozma but to a lower degree of effectiveness. Any of Dragon Dance, Nasty Plot, Double Dance with Stored Power, or even Meteor Beam I've seen Mew successfully use. The issues Mew has in comparison to Necrozma are:

1) No sustain. This isn't overly impactful in the grand scheme, but the only real recovery you'll see Mew run is Draining Kiss. Necrozma having Morning Sun is really helpful for the Terrain sets and even Swords Dance, which runs down stall with ease.

2) Worse bulk. Prism Armor really carries Necrozma here and makes it a lot harder to beat down, especially considering Necrozma's fiercest sets are ones that boost its defenses.

 

[LessThanThreeMan]

Just wanted to highlight mixed infernape! Scarf and band infernape are really good, but I don't think I see enough mixed nape compared to how good it is! I think mix nape is especially potent paired with . This works essentially the same way as + did in the previous months. Infernape is a very versatile mon and you can basically pick and choose what you beat! There is some play in the EVs based on which moves you pick, and expert belt is a good option too. Expert belt has the added bonus of not chipping you down and not revealing your item (most people will assume nape is choiced), but I do like the extra power of LO personally. Stone edge offers the best coverage in the last slot. Mach Punch priority is always welcomed though. Knock off, outside of generally being an annoying move, is mostly for AV reuniclus. Earthquake offers inferior coverage to stone edge (it hits and still but loses out on / / / ) but allows you to beat and . Stone edge does a decent amount to anyways though depending on their spread.

Infernape @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze / Iron Fist
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 144 Atk / 112 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fire Blast
- Close Combat
- Grass Knot
- Stone Edge / Mach Punch / Knock Off / Earthquake

Calcs

Hide

- 112 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Swampert: 380-447 (94 - 110.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
- 112 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Quagsire: 494-582 (125.3 - 147.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 144 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gastrodon: 273-321 (64 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- 112 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 205-244 (52 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 112 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tera Ghost Avalugg: 328-386 (83.2 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 144 Atk Life Orb Infernape Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Talonflame: 567-671 (157.9 - 186.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 144 Atk Life Orb Infernape Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Reuniclus: 185-218 (43.6 - 51.4%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO
- 144 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 367-432 (93.1 - 109.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
- 144 Atk Life Orb Infernape Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Noivern: 268-317 (86.1 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
- 144 Atk Life Orb Infernape Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 242-286 (92.7 - 109.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
- 144 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Muk-Alola: 251-296 (60.6 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- 144 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Milotic: 183-216 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- 112 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Overqwil: 253-298 (67.6 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- 112 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mew: 177-211 (43.8 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- 112 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Necrozma: 195-230 (48.9 - 57.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- 144 Atk Life Orb Infernape Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 242-286 (72.4 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- -1 144 Atk Life Orb Infernape Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 179-213 (54 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 144 Atk Life Orb Infernape Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Altaria: 195-231 (55 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 144 Atk Life Orb Infernape Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tentacruel: 315-372 (86.5 - 102.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- 144 Atk Life Orb Infernape Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tentacruel: 157-186 (43.1 - 51%) -- 54.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

This set is checked by if it is physdef, but it is close if you factor in protect and the extra turn of lefties. If you don't run knock off (which coverage wise I don't think you will very often) AV does come in for free. If teras into a fighting resist it also stops this nape set. walls this set if you don't run earthquake but 9/10 you will prefer to have stone edge.

More Calcs

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144 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 196-231 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
112 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Reuniclus: 136-161 (32.3 - 38.2%) -- 97.1% chance to 3HKO
144 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tera Fairy Chansey: 133-156 (18.9 - 22.1%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
112 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Tera Fairy Chansey: 113-134 (16 - 19%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[LeonLeeds]

You're using this Pokemon wrong.

Most people have been running a fairly standard set, and that's fine and dandy. But today, I'm here to preach the virtues of not just sending Galvantula in as a suicide lead.

Galvantula @ Life Orb / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Compound Eyes
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web / VOLT SWITCH
- Thunder
- Bug Buzz
- Energy Ball

See this? This here Pokemon is a menace. If you bring it in during the early-game, it'll probably put down webs, you'll chip away at something, and it'll die. Then, five turns later, you've either won the game or your webs are gone. It's a fairly feast or famine tool. But turn Galvantula into a pivot that's got coverage to hit pretty much the entire tier, can set speed control, and also turn the tables on common switch-ins? People see Galvantula and go 'alright, this is gonna be a webs lead.' Don't do that. Get your hazards up early if the team is able to pressure the other, by all means. But webs are much more valuable in the mid-game, and Galvantula is being slept on both as a pivot and a support mon.

TLDR: Stop leading this fucker, it's better when stuff's chipped down in the midgame.

LETS GOOOOOOOOO GALVANTULA GANG 4 LIFE BABYYYYYYY

How have people been enjoying the tier so far? I know RU is in an offense hell, and OU is currently going through a French revolution with gouging fire suspect, but NU has feels damn good to me. I'm guessing one of Gyra, Lycan, or Arma won't be in the tier at this time next month though.





(he so smol )

 

[Rabia]

We had our second council vote of the month; as a result, Armarouge, Gyarados, and Necrozma are now banned from SV NU! dhelmise or Marty please implement when you can.


Armarouge took over games very easily with Weakness Policy. Offensive setup sets snowballed games quite quickly thanks to Weak Armor, and even if you're unable to get Weakness Policy triggered, you still had Calm Mind to rely on. Meanwhile, bulky setup sets and Psychic Terrain were available options to Armarouge to help prevent offensive checks from dealing with it as easily.

Gyarados really had one set: Sub + DD. Original complaints about it were an overreliance on Terastallization so that it gained Tera Blast Flying, but a bit more experimentation of alternative sets with Taunt, different coverage, and different Tera types swayed council enough for it to be banned this time around.

Necrozma had approximately 2352798 viable sets, and trying to prepare against both physical and special variants was too difficult to consistently do. It had coverage for every possible check and frankly had minimal issue fitting said coverage on any set it needed. Some booster variants ran a recovery move, and although you might run into some coverage issues then, often the defensive checks to Necrozma still couldn't meaningfully threaten it and prevent its sweep. Combine this with insane defensive presence with boosting and Prism Armor and you've got probably the most potent setup sweeper of the year in NU.


Lycanroc-D saw a MASSIVE drop in support of a ban. Kiyo attributed this to similar issues Inteleon had: sure, switch-ins are quite limited, but you offer nothing defensively, are incredibly easy to revenge kill, and lack the OHKO power needed to beat walls unless you consistently predict the switch correctly.


Mew is very similar to Necrozma, but it's notably worse defensively because its bulk is worse, it lacks good recovery, and it's a decent amount weaker. We might see Mew replicate Necrozma's role in the future, but for now it's viewed as acceptable in the tier.


Oricorio-Pom-Pom was nominated for its role on Grassy Terrain teams mostly. We haven't seen widespread success yet of these teams, though, and the absence of Necrozma is expected to knock these teams down in potency a decent amount. It's likely to be monitored more in the future.

---

What are your thoughts on this vote? Is there anything we didn't vote on that you anticipate requiring tiering action in the future?

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I can see Lycanroc-Dusk getting out of hand, because it has something inteleon doesn't that could push it over the edge down the line, Priority moves and actual meaningful setup moves.

But as of right now it's technically manageable according to the council. Wouldn't be surprised to see this mon go nuts after these new bans of Necrozma and Gyarados who could check it somewhat, but I guess we shall see. Lycanroc-Dusk's frailty could keep it in line, but I do have lingering doubts considering how hard it hits and technically having very few switch ins that want to take tough claws boosted rock and fighting coverage. Now with Gyarados and Necrozma gone, it's switch ins have gone down. Also tera shenanigans could easily push it over the edge, but I guess we shall see. I genuinely could see a ban/suspect happening still despite support waning since those defensive switchins still are only mere checks and not counters as none of them want to stay in on it for too long, and rely on okhoing it. Glad to see it settle down but I think Lycanroc-Dusk is probably very much suspect worthy since all its defensive checks rely on beating it and exploiting its frailty, not that they can really wall Lycanroc-Dusk itself. But I can see why it wasn't quickbanned, as it definitely is not quite in that quickban territory despite feeling a little strong for the tier

 

[Lucario]

More often than not, some Pokemon are usually only using one or two sets that are standard. Sometimes nobody explores more options with those Pokemon because they already feel "complete". Today I would like to share a few sets that I think are worth spotlighting due to how the metagame has shifted this past week. A set or two might be known, just not widely used, but they should be shared to get more exposure.

Venusaur @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Earth Power
- Sunny Day​

I'm not a huge fan of full Sun teams currently, they feel off, I'm not sure why. Something I decided to use instead is Venusaur with Sunny Day to boost its own speed without needing Ninetales. Venusaur is pretty scary while Sun is active, Grass + Poison + Ground coverage is hard to beat, often having to use Tera to check on the fly. You can opt for Weather Ball over Earth Power, but I prefer the Ground coverage for Dragalge and Overqwil which cause issues for Venusaur. Modest Venusaur under Sun hits 518 Speed, which is outsped only by Scarfers with 108+ speed, such as Infernape. However, pairing this Venusaur with Galvantula can help aid it to be faster than Scarf Infernape and Raikou (ladder uses Scarf Raikou, idk why). The only real checks to this set are blanket special walls like Chansey and priority users like Lucario and Flygon; thanks to Tera Ground you resist Lycanroc-Dusk's Accelerock. Overall this is a very fun set to use on Webs Offense because not many people on ladder expect it to click Sunny Day and have Earth Power.

Krookodile @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt

This Krookodile set is really nice at punishing those that try to punish Choice locked Krookodile. Your opponent might see you click Earthquake on what they assume is Scarf damage just for you to hit their Brambleghast with Knock Off, allowing your rocks to stay up. There is a better EV spread, I believe Dr. PhD BJ used a more optimal spread, but I've found that this works just as well. Rocky Helmet + Taunt is really good at punishing bulky Pokemon like Chansey or Registeel, allowing you to remove their item, prevent their rocks, and to get your own rocks up. I like pairing this with another Pokemon that often runs Scarf like Mienshao or Munkidori to play mind games with your opponent before they realize what the Krookodle set it. You can also opt for Focus Sash and Tera Ghost and use this as a dedicated lead, but I think there are better options in the tier for that.


Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive / Hasty Nature
- Close Combat
- Extreme Speed
- Shadow Ball
- Swords Dance

Something you might not know is that Lucario is my favorite Pokemon, this is not common knowledge. What is also not common knowledge is mixed Lucario. I'd like to piggyback off of LessThanThreeMan's post about mixed Infernape to talk a little bit about mixed Lucario. This idea came to me when I realized how insane Lucario can be once Slowbro rises to RU next month. Everyone knows the classic Ekiller Lucario set with SD + CC + Espeed, however, this is a set that has a lot of options for its 4th moveslot. Last month we used Crunch and Earthquake for Chandelure and Basculegion, or you could have used Meteor Mash or Bullet Punch for an extra STAB move. Now I believe you can invest in Lucario's naturally high SpA to use Shadow Ball to beat Slowbro. Instead of using Jolly you can opt for Naive or Hasty to guarantee a 2HKO on Slowbro with Shadow Ball. (You can also go Jolly with 172 Atk / 84 SpA / 252 Spe, but you lose out on some Atk which can hurt you a lot). Not only does this version of Lucario beat Slowbro, you can drop Swords Dance for Trailbaze to boost your speed and 2HKO Swampert, Gastrodon, and Quagsire, Vacuum Wave for more priority, notably hitting Lycanroc-Dusk, Stone Edge to hit Talonflame or Noivern on the switch, or Earthquake for Dragalge. Not only is that last moveslotflexible, your Tera type is too. Tera Normal might not be optimal on non-SD sets, so you can run Tera Ghost to be immune to revenge killers like Lycanroc-Dusk, Mienshao, and Infernape using Close Combat and to boost Shadow Ball's damage, or you can go with Tera Grass to add an Earthquake resistance while having a chance to OHKO Quagsire and Swampert (Gastrodon is an OHKO) with Trailblaze. The biggest letdown of this set is the need for Life Orb. I haven't tried it yet, but I think Expert Belt with Tera Stellar could even work on this. One last thing, you can go Justified over Inner Focus, I just really like the immunity to Intimidate. Just like the Venusaur set, Lucario pairs really well with Galvantula due to Lucario's lackluster base 90 speed.​

 

[Punchshroom]

Lycanroc-Dusk @ Choice Band / Life Orb
Ability: Tough Claws
Tera Type: Fighting / Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Accelerock
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- Crunch

I'm assuming this is the LycanDusk set we've come to know and fear; just really dangerous and powerful attacks with difficult-to-resist coverage, which can also be augmented further by the Tera you choose (Dark Tera also provides Prankster insurance). While this set is very tricky to pivot around, it does indeed suffer from aforementioned issues such as prediction reliance, ease of being revenge killed, and pretty much zero defensive utility. However, much like Gyarados, all you need to do is expand beyond one set to really abuse its traits.

I find it really funny that a set I posted over a year ago can just be copy pasted in today's format for nearly all the same purposes.

Lycanroc-Dusk @ Life Orb
Ability: Tough Claws
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Accelerock
- Close Combat
- Trailblaze

SD LycanDusk will hard punish attempts to pivot / sac mons for scouting its Choice-locked move, and its access to both a powerful priority move and a ludicrously strong breaking option means it can easily generate more value after you've KOed something with it. However, while it's tempting to run more offensive Teras to push your advantage even further, a defensive Grass Tera can allow LycanDusk to completely flip matchups against the Grounds/Waters looking to check it, and could even give it a Swords Dance opportunity. The real kicker of this set is Trailblaze, meaning Grass Tera is not just a purely defensive Tera but can also be used offensively to utterly demolish said Grounds/Waters; to top it off, the speed boost granted by Trailblaze makes LycanDusk pretty much impervious to Scarf mons, making even a non-Tera Trailblaze an excellent way to finish off a weakened foe and insure yourself from revenge killing attempts.

 

[Django]

Iron Thorns is still excellent. Seems like it dropped off at the start of this month with all the new toys to play with, but should start shining again now following the recent bans.


Iron Thorns @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Supercell Slam
- Ice Punch
- Tera Blast

Nothing revolutionary here - Tera Grass hits Swampert / Quagsire / Gastrodon, and Ice / Electric provides really good coverage otherwise. With such good bulk it's really easy to get one DD in, then another can be done with Tera usually. Particularly enjoys webs support to stop faster scarf users revenge killing it (LO Galvantula is great, much better than the lead sash imo)

 

[sminey]

I've played a lot of NU and I think generally the meta is in a good place right now, except I do believe mew is starting to become an issue in the same way necrozma was, there's lead HO mew, which I think is a pivotal part of likely the best team right now

Mew @ Power Herb
Ability: Synchronize
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Psychic
- Meteor Beam
- Earth Power
But there's also stored power mew sets,

Mew @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Synchronize
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Stored Power
- Calm Mind
- Body Press
And dragon dance mew

Mew @ Lum Berry
Ability: Synchronize
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Psychic Fangs
- Crunch
And so many more but you get the point.
I don't think any one set is busted on mew right now, but when you have to play a guessing game on not only which set mew is running, but what tera or coverage it's running because running the right set it can sweep just about any team, I think it has become if not broken, at least unhalthy for the meta.

 

[Perla]

After a break, I've returned to playing in this tier and I must say that I find it quite enjoyable, even if it has still a few frustrating elements, but overall most of the games were fun.

Without any big surprises, the Pokémon that seems quite problematic to me is Mew. It has immense synergy with many playstyles at the moment and I think the counterplay isn't exactly clear (sometimes you think it's a lead set, but it's actually an extremely offensive set that immediately puts you at a significant disadvantage).
The second mon is Slowbro. Imma be honest: I find its CM set way more annoying and threatening than Reuniclus' one. Reuniclus was honestly very disappointing because its capability of taking physical hits has always let me down, but the Bro has among its tools the hated Scald, so with burns and the right Tera (generally fairy, in a tier where the steel types are kinda meh) it can solo/clean the opponent's team. To add salt in the wound, even with this set, people reliably use it for its defensive/regenerative role, without compromising the final set up. It was vital also for the few stall teams that I faced, increasing my hatred against it.
Finally, I don't know if bannable, but Lycanroc and the cheap core Cloyster/Torterra were not fun.


To conclude: the VR looks very accurate, as it really grasps the best of the tier and the less reliable stuff.

A couple of notes though:

In my opinion, the downgrade of Brute Bonnet was more of a formality, which was supposed to be obvious considering the Sleep Ban, but honestly, I still think it's a high rank mon, especially under Sun (really enjoyed this playstyle and it was very strong). The pressure exerted with 4 attacking moves doesn't seem less scary compared to the times when it got Spore. Moreover it's generally very useful against all the water types that this tier has received. Imho it has more value than Oricorio-PomPom which honestly I never see it.

I know there are many Fighting-types competing, but atm Gallade seems very threatening to me and I wouldn't consider it mid-tier. Sacred Sword seems spammable everywhere (perhaps the bans on Flying/Psychic types have helped this?) and its wallbreaking power was truly frightening to face.

 

[Rabia]

Brute Bonnet @ Assault Vest
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Dark / Grass / Poison / Fairy
EVs: 168 HP / 252 Atk / 88 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Crunch / Clear Smog
- Close Combat
- Sucker Punch
- Seed Bomb

To piggyback off of Perla, Brute Bonnet is REALLY good in this meta. I've used a ton of Assault Vest (etern can confirm just how many Swampert + Klefki + Brute Bonnet builds exist between the two of us...), and it consistently carries games. Big thing for it is team versatility: both offense and balance builds really appreciate it checking foes like Mew, Brambleghast (this Pokemon pisses me off so much more than it should), Reuniclus, Thundurus sometimes, and more, and its strong Sucker Punch lets you vibe check a ton of the sweepers like Torterra and Cloyster. Hell, even though sun teams aren't that amazing anymore, Brute Bonnet is still a fixture of them and is great insurance in the offense mirror matchups.

:brutebonnet: Here's a fun team with Brute Bonnet if you've yet to use it yourself ^^

 

[Lucario]

Hi, my name is Lucario and I am running for president, and as president my one and only goal is to ban Alolan Muk. Extreme hot take here, I know, but please read all of this before saying I just suck. I talked to several users and found some similar opinions between us, that is that Alolan Muk is dumb and hard to switch-into because its only natural check is Swalot...

The colorful Muk runs 2 sets, both of which will have Knock Off and Poison Jab/Poison Fang. One set will opt for Drain Punch and either Protect or Toxic while the other runs Rest + Sleep Talk. Muk's main selling point is Poison Touch and its amazing Dark/Poison typing. Poison Touch gives this blob a 30% chance to Poison when it makes contact with you. What's annoying about this, if you couldn't tell already, is that Muk's STAB Knock Off has a 30% chance to Poison its target. This means that you can switch a Rhyperior, Mudsdale, or Quagsire in to absorb the Knock Off and to hit it back with Earthquake, but they can and will get poisoned while also losing their Leftovers. That Pokemon is essentially dead now because it cannot switch-in without taking 12% every turn without gaining 6%. Ok so what about a Poison-type to absorb Knock Off without getting Poisoned? Well we have your own Alolan Muk, Vileplume, or Overqwil, great, but what do they do to Muk once they come in? The best that these 3 can do is Vileplume using Leech Seed, but Muk can swap out at any time (for once I beg for Vileplume to regain Infestation). None of this is made better when Muk can easily come into battle due to its high Special bulk, allowing it to beat almost all Special breakers. It also has a good matchup against some physical attackers.

I hear what you're saying, use Krookodile, Flygon, or any fast physical breaker that can one shot it, I will! However, that Muk will go back to its trainer and then you will be looking at a Slowbro, Rotom-Heat, Talonflame, or Noivern. Now you're locked into Earthquake and can't do anything or you can set up but fear Will-O-Wisp from Rotom or Talonflame. Next thing you know Muk is back on the field, Knocking you off and spreading even more poison, but this time you have less HP.

Other Muk counterplay includes getting as many hazards as you can get and making sure they never go away. Spikes stacking and getting up Stealth Rock isn't hard, but we have actually good removal now. Muk pairs so well with Brambleghast, Avalugg, Noivern, and Talonflame. Removing hazards is so easy these days that Muk really doesn't care about them. Even if you do have them up, Muk can just Rest and laugh in your face even longer.

I mentioned earlier that Swalot is the only natural check to Muk thanks to Sticky Hold, Poison-typing, and Earthquake. You can also opt for Justified Lucario vs. RestTalk Muk, but you need to learn that it isn't Drain Punch first. I beg you, the reader, to give me a viable defensive check to Muk, or even an offensive check that doesn't fold when Muk switches. You can have a switch-in, but nothing that is viable is a long term check. Maybe it's time for Imprison Mew to be on every team to beat Muk !!!

Sure, Alolan Muk is really good right now (Top 3 Pokemon rn), it needs to go. This demon has no real checks and is unhealthy for the meta. We are really playing a tier that has an unviable item (Quick Claw) banned but not something that removes your item, poisons you, and just sits there as an unhealthy wall. Remember, defensive Pokemon can be unhealthy, too!

 

[Django]

Hi, my name is Lucario and I am running for president, and as president my one and only goal is to ban Alolan Muk. Extreme hot take here, I know, but please read all of this before saying I just suck. I talked to several users and found some similar opinions between us, that is that Alolan Muk is dumb and hard to switch-into because its only natural check is Swalot...

The colorful Muk runs 2 sets, both of which will have Knock Off and Poison Jab/Poison Fang. One set will opt for Drain Punch and either Protect or Toxic while the other runs Rest + Sleep Talk. Muk's main selling point is Poison Touch and its amazing Dark/Poison typing. Poison Touch gives this blob a 30% chance to Poison when it makes contact with you. What's annoying about this, if you couldn't tell already, is that Muk's STAB Knock Off has a 30% chance to Poison its target. This means that you can switch a Rhyperior, Mudsdale, or Quagsire in to absorb the Knock Off and to hit it back with Earthquake, but they can and will get poisoned while also losing their Leftovers. That Pokemon is essentially dead now because it cannot switch-in without taking 12% every turn without gaining 6%. Ok so what about a Poison-type to absorb Knock Off without getting Poisoned? Well we have your own Alolan Muk, Vileplume, or Overqwil, great, but what do they do to Muk once they come in? The best that these 3 can do is Vileplume using Leech Seed, but Muk can swap out at any time (for once I beg for Vileplume to regain Infestation). None of this is made better when Muk can easily come into battle due to its high Special bulk, allowing it to beat almost all Special breakers. It also has a good matchup against some physical attackers.

I hear what you're saying, use Krookodile, Flygon, or any fast physical breaker that can one shot it, I will! However, that Muk will go back to its trainer and then you will be looking at a Slowbro, Rotom-Heat, Talonflame, or Noivern. Now you're locked into Earthquake and can't do anything or you can set up but fear Will-O-Wisp from Rotom or Talonflame. Next thing you know Muk is back on the field, Knocking you off and spreading even more poison, but this time you have less HP.

Other Muk counterplay includes getting as many hazards as you can get and making sure they never go away. Spikes stacking and getting up Stealth Rock isn't hard, but we have actually good removal now. Muk pairs so well with Brambleghast, Avalugg, Noivern, and Talonflame. Removing hazards is so easy these days that Muk really doesn't care about them. Even if you do have them up, Muk can just Rest and laugh in your face even longer.

I mentioned earlier that Swalot is the only natural check to Muk thanks to Sticky Hold, Poison-typing, and Earthquake. You can also opt for Justified Lucario vs. RestTalk Muk, but you need to learn that it isn't Drain Punch first. I beg you, the reader, to give me a viable defensive check to Muk, or even an offensive check that doesn't fold when Muk switches. You can have a switch-in, but nothing that is viable is a long term check. Maybe it's time for Imprison Mew to be on every team to beat Muk !!!

Sure, Alolan Muk is really good right now (Top 3 Pokemon rn), it needs to go. This demon has no real checks and is unhealthy for the meta. We are really playing a tier that has an unviable item (Quick Claw) banned but not something that removes your item, poisons you, and just sits there as an unhealthy wall. Remember, defensive Pokemon can be unhealthy, too!

Alolan Muk is very very good. And definitely hard to switch safely into. I'm not sure I agree with it being broken / unhealthy though.

Vileplume, Klefki, Copperajah, Registeel, Overqwil, even Incineroar are all defensive checks to it, but not complete counters as they will get worn down over time. In all these cases you get hazards up, or get momentum yourself, and if the opponent decides to spend a turn removing them, that's a great opportunity to seize momentum back.

Talonflame loses boots but 30% to burn Muk is also big, and Talon can still remove rocks itself.

Milotic hard counters it and loves the free Marvel Scale activation, but admittedly not sure how viable Milotic really is.

Krookidile, Flygon, Lucario, Rhyperior, Magnezone, Shed Skin Scrafty are all great offensive checks to it. I don't really get the point about A-Muk being broken because you can pair it with another mon which counters these offensive checks. If that's the case then any defensive pairing with Knock Off / Toxic / Hazards is also broken, as that will wear you down over time. As with any solid defensive core, you need to play around the obvious switch ins, use pivot moves, or double switch yourself.

I don't think it's quite as easy to get A-Muk in for free as you suggest - looking at the viability ranking Top / High mons, you're probably switching into:

- Slowbro (without RestTalk Scald is horrible to switch into)
- Noivern (which risks Specs doing a huge chunk, or just getting U-Turned)
- Brambleghast (which can Spin or Strength Sap)
- Diance (which can run Earth Power, or a Diamond Storm rise makes the Muk switch a failure)
- Reuniclus (LO Focus Blast hurts, but that's rare and will miss)
- Oriocorio is pretty much free
- Sylveon you're only switching in to Wish sets, Specs hits too hard
- Tsareena (you risk getting hit with Knock Off / Spin, then it can just u-turn out)

So there's really not that many free switches, other than the obvious switch ins to Psychic types. A-Muk also can't be an effective Scald absorber via RestTalk and also run Drain Punch to beat Steels at the same time, so it's somewhat limited in its capability in practice. It's not bulky enough to take unresisted hits from powerful Specs users, and it's barely switching in to anything physical. It can't really keep up with most HO teams, and stall doesn't mind too much if they can keep their Vileplume (or Tera Poison something else).

If anything, I'd argue A-Muk is quite healthy to have in the tier. It's great to have a reliable Scald and Future Sight absorber, both of which I could see becoming frustrating without it. It also punishes passive play on balance / bulkier builds, which while frustrating I think is important to keep them in check. Making consistent progress vs these types of build, probably forcing Tera Poison or Steel vs stall teams, while also keeping Psychic, Toxic Spikes, and Scald in check is a great tool to have.