Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[tommytt22]

Putting a sunday night spotlight on my favourite core this week. This core hinges on the fact that tera steel scizor is strong enough to OHKO several of OU's top offensive threats with some chip. And also theyre some of the coolest mons of all time so why not use them.

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Steel Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 236-278 (83.9 - 98.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Steel Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 274-324 (86.4 - 102.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Steel Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 276-326 (85.9 - 101.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Steel Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 472-556 (120.7 - 142.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Steel Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 226-266 (69.9 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Steel Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meowscarada: 290-342 (98.9 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

@ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 216 HP / 252 Def / 40 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Tail
- Stealth Rock
- Endure/ Rest

Garchomps role is to set rocks as seen above but also inflict massive chip damage agaisnt physical attackers, notably rapid spinners. if dragonite makes the mistake of hitting you with espeed then scizor will finish it off next turn. I can't take credit for this set i believe blunder featured it a while back. I like endure as it has priority but rest works too as you dont need to be awake to inflict damage with chomp. speed is for modest raging bolt to hit it with earthquake in a pinch.

@ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Close Combat

See wall of calcs above. you know what it does.

@ Expert Belt
Ability: Magnet Pull
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Body Press

Incredible synergy with scizor's uturn. use this to ohko standard corviknight and skarmory with broken sturdy. Magnezone can also OHKO dondozo which walls scizor but obviously you cant trap that. finally in a pinch if required there is body press for kingambit, who you can trap and is unlikely to tera flying on you... 0 Def Expert Belt Magnezone Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 269-317 (78.8 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
not an OHKO unless you tera fighting but clears a path if needed. i choose expert belt for versatility and nabbing ohko on specially invest corviknight but wise glasses is acceptable as youll deal more to neutral targets.

 

[Heatranator]

Putting a sunday night spotlight on my favourite core this week. This core hinges on the fact that tera steel scizor is strong enough to OHKO several of OU's top offensive threats with some chip. And also theyre some of the coolest mons of all time so why not use them.

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Steel Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 236-278 (83.9 - 98.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Steel Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 274-324 (86.4 - 102.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Steel Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 276-326 (85.9 - 101.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Steel Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 472-556 (120.7 - 142.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Steel Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 226-266 (69.9 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Steel Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meowscarada: 290-342 (98.9 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

@ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 216 HP / 252 Def / 40 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Tail
- Stealth Rock
- Endure/ Rest

Garchomps role is to set rocks as seen above but also inflict massive chip damage agaisnt physical attackers, notably rapid spinners. if dragonite makes the mistake of hitting you with espeed then scizor will finish it off next turn. I can't take credit for this set i believe blunder featured it a while back. I like endure as it has priority but rest works too as you dont need to be awake to inflict damage with chomp. speed is for modest raging bolt to hit it with earthquake in a pinch.

@ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Close Combat

See wall of calcs above. you know what it does.

@ Expert Belt
Ability: Magnet Pull
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Body Press

Incredible synergy with scizor's uturn. use this to ohko standard corviknight and skarmory with broken sturdy. Magnezone can also OHKO dondozo which walls scizor but obviously you cant trap that. finally in a pinch if required there is body press for kingambit, who you can trap and is unlikely to tera flying on you... 0 Def Expert Belt Magnezone Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 269-317 (78.8 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
not an OHKO unless you tera fighting but clears a path if needed. i choose expert belt for versatility and nabbing ohko on specially invest corviknight but wise glasses is acceptable as youll deal more to neutral targets.

Couldn't you also use quick attack on scizor? It is a bit difficult to fit in, but you can do impressive damage to steel resists, without having to tera.
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 125-148 (41.5 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 153-181 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gouging Fire: 91-108 (25.9 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Quick Attack vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 117-138 (34.2 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Otherwise, love this core. I especially like seeing people use magnezone in OU. It's my favourite mon, and I was sad to see it drop from OU after all these years.

 

[Conflux123]

Putting a sunday night spotlight on my favourite core this week. This core hinges on the fact that tera steel scizor is strong enough to OHKO several of OU's top offensive threats with some chip. And also theyre some of the coolest mons of all time so why not use them.

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Steel Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 236-278 (83.9 - 98.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Steel Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 274-324 (86.4 - 102.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Steel Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 276-326 (85.9 - 101.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Steel Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 472-556 (120.7 - 142.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Steel Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 226-266 (69.9 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Steel Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meowscarada: 290-342 (98.9 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

@ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 216 HP / 252 Def / 40 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Tail
- Stealth Rock
- Endure/ Rest

Garchomps role is to set rocks as seen above but also inflict massive chip damage agaisnt physical attackers, notably rapid spinners. if dragonite makes the mistake of hitting you with espeed then scizor will finish it off next turn. I can't take credit for this set i believe blunder featured it a while back. I like endure as it has priority but rest works too as you dont need to be awake to inflict damage with chomp. speed is for modest raging bolt to hit it with earthquake in a pinch.

@ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Close Combat

See wall of calcs above. you know what it does.

@ Expert Belt
Ability: Magnet Pull
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Body Press

Incredible synergy with scizor's uturn. use this to ohko standard corviknight and skarmory with broken sturdy. Magnezone can also OHKO dondozo which walls scizor but obviously you cant trap that. finally in a pinch if required there is body press for kingambit, who you can trap and is unlikely to tera flying on you... 0 Def Expert Belt Magnezone Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 269-317 (78.8 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
not an OHKO unless you tera fighting but clears a path if needed. i choose expert belt for versatility and nabbing ohko on specially invest corviknight but wise glasses is acceptable as youll deal more to neutral targets.

I've personally just been spamming HO with sash lando, shell smash cloyster, volc, dnite, scizor and offensive starmie.

View attachment 622741
Something ain't right here.

It's common on HO because it pressures a lot of threats in the meta while still spinning away rocks for volc and dnite.

I know you are trying to say somehow its more 'honest', but that is completely wrong. Also, look at this calc.
252 SpA Tera Ground Volcarona Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 194-230 (41.9 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
If clod gets its HDB knocked off, which isn't unreasonable, then its two shot by volc with just one layer of spikes and stealth rocks. That's not really a counter. You might say "but what about dragonite? It walls tera ground sets". Sure, but then its not walling tera dragon sets. That's the most egregious part of volc and what puts it over the edge, it can pick and choose its counterplay so much more than anything else. And its always been doing that. This is a mon thats been contentious since its released (except gen 8, I think).
I also don't see the arguement for 'utility' in the tier. It only checks meow, rilla and kyurem. Meow is mid, rilla is good but has lots of other checks, and kyurem blasts it with draco meteor, so it isn't a real check. Flame body is nice, but that's not enough in my book to not ban it. There are three other flame body mons, and we also have a whole item that punishes contact moves, rocky helmet. And it does it 100% of the time.
Volc may not be 'unwallable' (a statement I disagree with) but its pretty damn hard when you switch in your counter, say heatran, and then get obliterated by tera blast ground. Oops, now my team is destroyed by volc. I don't want to have to run a dragonite + heatran on every team. There was even a fun little thing about tera ghost volc, which was funny.
I firmly believe that volc will be banned, but even if you disagree, what's the hurt in trying? We can't determine if it will get banned rn. If DLC2 meta has taught me anything, its that the writing on the wall means nothing, its just all gibberish to my eyes. We thought that both kyurem and gouging would definetely be banned, but they weren't. Even if it looks like volc will not be banned, it may change and get banned. I say we try, it doesn't work, we cry about it for a bit, and move on. There can be other chances to ban things, so we should keep on trying.

Not all teams hazard stack though, and HStack doesn't normally have volc (funnily enough, because of the low defensive utility you talked about looool). People aren't going to normally get their clod knocked as well, they have other knock absorbers (Gliscor and Clef) and most knock users are physical threats unless it's tornadus or wake (in which case Blissey will get knocked and it's very rare). At the same time, volc is still extremely customizable, able to change it's set to be checked by the mons your team handles already. It's super annoying for sure. Possibly taunting clod first can be valid as well.

 

[Heatranator]

offensive starmie.

Something ain't right here.

 

[ant4456]

I really hope the council doesn't even bother with a Volcarona or Tera Blast suspect when already in the PR thread there are people saying they wouldn't vote for either to be banned

Literally just take the L on this front guys, wait for an actual suspect that can make progress

 

[Heatranator]

I really hope the council doesn't even bother with a Volcarona or Tera Blast suspect when already in the PR thread there are people saying they wouldn't vote for either to be banned

Literally just take the L on this front guys, wait for an actual suspect that can make progress

Please don't have this defeatist attitude. There has only been two suspects this dlc that have been DNB, arch still got banned so there is hope. We thought that both would be certain bans, but it turned out the opposite. Why can't the same happen here where people say they don't want it banned, but then change their minds and ban it. Plus, I wouldn't say that a few people not wanting it banned is grounds for it never getting banned, there are most likely tons more people who will be able to get reqs who might want it banned. Idk how many, but shouldn't we at least try? It doesn't really hurt, we have time. If it fails, it fails. We go onto suspecting the next thing.

 

[ant4456]

Please don't have this defeatist attitude. There has only been two suspects this dlc that have been DNB, arch still got banned so there is hope. We thought that both would be certain bans, but it turned out the opposite. Why can't the same happen here where people say they don't want it banned, but then change their minds and ban it. Plus, I wouldn't say that a few people not wanting it banned is grounds for it never getting banned, there are most likely tons more people who will be able to get reqs who might want it banned. Idk how many, but shouldn't we at least try? It doesn't really hurt, we have time. If it fails, it fails. We go onto suspecting the next thing.

Out of all the brokens Volcarona probably has the most "direct" counters/checks even with Tera bc you are playing a meta where half the high tiers are broken asf

Even TB Ground is just missing out on the two shot on Unaware Spdef Clodsire (even highest rolls!) and with some prep you can get Volc statused and just wall it.

Other brokes have things like Booster to give free multipliers to try and bust through walls, Volc is unironically, deadass, slightly more honest as a threat to check in the fact that it can't just Protosynthesis Special Attack to break through targets that it otherwise walls lol.

Theorymon Example:

252 SpA Protosynthesis Tera Ground Volcarona Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 254-300 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And if it's not Tera Ground you are probably fine anyways. Volcarona is really good but it's not unwallable, not uncheckable, and it's probably not even the biggest threat in the tier.

On top of that, Volcarona has other utility for the tier, and all together that shit is not getting banned. Would I like to see it banned? Definitely, but there is already a case that I, someone who hates it, can tell you for why it's not some big tier breaker, and if I can do it, Big Volc Defense Squad can tenfold lmao

Tera Blast isn't getting banned because people don't think there are a sufficient enough abusers, half the reason to get rid of it would be to protect mons like Volc but that'd require Volc being right on the chopping block right now with it, and it isn't actually.

If Volc gets banned I will be pleasantly surprised, but I will not even bother trying to argue why Volc should be banned

 

[Heatranator]

Volc is unironically, deadass, slightly more honest as a threat to check in the fact that it can't just Protosynthesis Special Attack to break through targets that it otherwise walls lol.

I know you are trying to say somehow its more 'honest', but that is completely wrong. Also, look at this calc.
252 SpA Tera Ground Volcarona Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 194-230 (41.9 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
If clod gets its HDB knocked off, which isn't unreasonable, then its two shot by volc with just one layer of spikes and stealth rocks. That's not really a counter. You might say "but what about dragonite? It walls tera ground sets". Sure, but then its not walling tera dragon sets. That's the most egregious part of volc and what puts it over the edge, it can pick and choose its counterplay so much more than anything else. And its always been doing that. This is a mon thats been contentious since its released (except gen 8, I think).
I also don't see the arguement for 'utility' in the tier. It only checks meow, rilla and kyurem. Meow is mid, rilla is good but has lots of other checks, and kyurem blasts it with draco meteor, so it isn't a real check. Flame body is nice, but that's not enough in my book to not ban it. There are three other flame body mons, and we also have a whole item that punishes contact moves, rocky helmet. And it does it 100% of the time.
Volc may not be 'unwallable' (a statement I disagree with) but its pretty damn hard when you switch in your counter, say heatran, and then get obliterated by tera blast ground. Oops, now my team is destroyed by volc. I don't want to have to run a dragonite + heatran on every team. There was even a fun little thing about tera ghost volc, which was funny.
I firmly believe that volc will be banned, but even if you disagree, what's the hurt in trying? We can't determine if it will get banned rn. If DLC2 meta has taught me anything, its that the writing on the wall means nothing, its just all gibberish to my eyes. We thought that both kyurem and gouging would definetely be banned, but they weren't. Even if it looks like volc will not be banned, it may change and get banned. I say we try, it doesn't work, we cry about it for a bit, and move on. There can be other chances to ban things, so we should keep on trying.

 

[Kallum]

'nother suspect test soon?

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

'nother suspect test soon?

possibly! a lot of people are weighing in on the policy review thread supporting a suspect on volcarona. we'd need a survey to know for sure how much support a suspect would have, but i could see a suspect happening without the need for a recent survey just based on public sentiment right now. there's precedent—bloodmoon and archaludon were both suspected and resoundingly banned based on a significant shift in popular opinion that happened too quickly to properly capture in a survey, and support for a volc suspect seems to be present and rapidly growing

 

[Dead by Daylight]

i'm getting whiplash from the amount of people who are saying that one thing is broken then pivoting on a dime to saying another thing is broken. if we want to suspect Volc, then talk about Volc only.

That's the most egregious part of volc and what puts it over the edge, it can pick and choose its counterplay so much more than anything else.

Let's see what other massive metagame threats can pick and choose their counterplay based on their coverage move or set:

(Tera Flying/Fairy + Tera Blast or even normal moveset screws Tusk and Zama to an extent over, Tera Dark nukes stopgaps to the other Teras)
(Glowking just dies to a Tera Dark Knock Off, and you aren't switching in Blissey on a CC or like Dozo on a Specs Moonblast)
(Play Rough kills Dragons, Knock provides consistent utility against checks like Skarm)
(Tera Ground breaks through Tran and Glowking just as you mentioned)
(EQ and Taunt sets have wildly different counterplay, and you could just lose if you don't have counterplay to a set)
(Tera Fairy is a good defensive typing overall and helps vs. Gambit's Sucker Punch, while Tera Flying wins vs. Lando and Tusk)

The point is that Volc being able to pick and choose its checks is not a unique problem to it. Tera, the mechanic itself, lets many offensive threats choose their checks, and to suggest that Volc is the sole benefactor of this is just not true. It doesn't really do it any better than others as well; all of the things I just listed can be potentially game-ending if given a free turn thanks to Tera.

 

[MattC (Banned)]

TL;DR Everyone has a problem the metagame, no one can agree on why it's bad.

Lil bit late to the party but I still wanna talk about this

You know what we could just do? The... K... Uum...
Kalalokki Method, I think it's called? We can just straight up ban like everything that seems powerful rn. Volcarona, Tera Blast, and Gouging Fire in recent memory are really "oppressive" or just toxic mons for the metagame. Why focus on banning 1 thing when we can just get rid of all controversial mons, moves, and items? Let us move past this tyrant-esque POV in a democratic-esque voting system for a moment. So long as everyone can agree on what is COLLECTIVELY "TOXIC" with OU rn, then they can add that to this mass ban. And yk, just like the Kalalokki Method, we can just retest everything later.

This is coming from the same guy who wants tera gone tho so take what I say with a grain smaller than salt, but I do agree with you. Nobody knows what specifically is wrong with OU rn, so why not just... ban everything at once and try it later? Trust me bro CB Ting-Lu is too gud in OU fr fr we should add it to this list /j

 

[serotine]

I am extremely confused at the dialogue surround Tera Blast, and would appreciate any information or clarification. I am aware of the policy review thread. As it stands, we have pushed as a community to not pick and choose options for banning, i.e. Speed Boost Blaziken vs. Blaze Blaziken. In that mind set, what makes Tera Blast an exception? It is undeniably is tied to the mechanic of Tera, and no Pokemon I am aware of would use the move or is unarguably worse for not using it. In that mindset, how is banning Tera Blast any different from banning STAB Z-Moves, or banning Fighting and Flying type moves to prevent boosts from Dmax users?

It really seems like we are balancing a system mechanic rather than addressing it full stop. If the precedent for this is based on Last Respects and Shed Tail being banned, then that also feels incredibly flimsy for justification. Both moves are problematic for their abuse of immutable mechanics. Pokemon switch out, and pokemon faint, and having moves that benefit from scenarios that happen every single game is of course a bannable rational. Tera Blast however, is contingent on Tera to have any value whatsoever. The oppurtunities are frequent, yes, but is that a result of all the parts of a pokemon's kit working together exceedingly well or wholly Tera/Tera Blast ala Shed Tail and Last Respects? Moreover, if I understand the precendents set, then we have to prove that each and every single pokemon with access to the move is egregious with the move, and balanced/less problematic/okay in the tier without access.

I dont have an opinion either way, but this feels like slippery slope dynamics that will lead to shit arguments moving forward. The "this pokemon is balanced with these IV's" kind of stuff, wherein the less room to argue the better for everyone. Again, if I am unaware of a point previously made or if this itself was disscussed, please let me know. I hadn't seen this argument myself anywhere however, and felt it best to post for consideration's sake.

 

[Deleted User [52440]]

If only there was another mechanic that was banned this gen because it was too overbearing if left unchecked...Half measures are ok for one proposal but not the other, right?

Enjoy the bed that's been made - i'll wait for a clean slate (gen 10) before playing this gen again.

 

[N-Manifold]

I am extremely confused at the dialogue surround Tera Blast, and would appreciate any information or clarification. I am aware of the policy review thread. As it stands, we have pushed as a community to not pick and choose options for banning, i.e. Speed Boost Blaziken vs. Blaze Blaziken. In that mind set, what makes Tera Blast an exception? It is undeniably is tied to the mechanic of Tera, and no Pokemon I am aware of would use the move or is unarguably worse for not using it. In that mindset, how is banning Tera Blast any different from banning STAB Z-Moves, or banning Fighting and Flying type moves to prevent boosts from Dmax users?

It really seems like we are balancing a system mechanic rather than addressing it full stop. If the precedent for this is based on Last Respects and Shed Tail being banned, then that also feels incredibly flimsy for justification. Both moves are problematic for their abuse of immutable mechanics. Pokemon switch out, and pokemon faint, and having moves that benefit from scenarios that happen every single game is of course a bannable rational. Tera Blast however, is contingent on Tera to have any value whatsoever. The oppurtunities are frequent, yes, but is that a result of all the parts of a pokemon's kit working together exceedingly well or wholly Tera/Tera Blast ala Shed Tail and Last Respects? Moreover, if I understand the precendents set, then we have to prove that each and every single pokemon with access to the move is egregious with the move, and balanced/less problematic/okay in the tier without access.

I dont have an opinion either way, but this feels like slippery slope dynamics that will lead to shit arguments moving forward. The "this pokemon is balanced with these IV's" kind of stuff, wherein the less room to argue the better for everyone. Again, if I am unaware of a point previously made or if this itself was disscussed, please let me know. I hadn't seen this argument myself anywhere however, and felt it best to post for consideration's sake.

If you want a simple answer, it's that "tera blast is banned" is a simple ban and "speed boost is banned on blaziken" is not. But I agree that it is in principle no different from the hypothetical STAB-zmove ban.

 

[Excalibuwrath]

Been laddering for the last couple days in the 1700s or so with an alt, and honestly? I think this meta's pretty solid. I agree with the people saying that most playstyles are viable with a solid variety in each one, and I think that if you have a solid team then you should be able to give yourself a competitive matchup with the rest of the meta.

I do think is the most "broken" mon in the tier, because it beats everything, to the point where most of the time I beat it by luring it with Rock Slide Kyurem. Yes, it doesn't beat everything at once, but planning around Volc is a bit like planning around crits in a nuzlocke; even if you beat most Volcs, your gameplan isn't safe against it unless you're secure against every variant, and that applies to basically zero non-stall teams. Even when my variant doesn't win the game on the spot, I'm almost always going "I can see the exact tweak that would 6-0 this team." It also benefits from being the easiest thing in the game to set up with, because it can afford to invest in physical bulk and QD is crazy, but everyone knows that. Honestly, everyone knows how Volc works by now. My position at this point is that even if I think Volc's probably broken, I'm not sure if it's broken *enough*, and it has a net positive impact on the tier because it checks so much and it's pretty doable to layer a few checks to keep it from steamrolling you. Not sure how I'd vote, I keep bouncing back and forth on it, but I do think it leaving the tier would destabilize it pretty hard.

, even though I think it's probably less "broken" than Volc because its checks do their job more consistently and it's probably never winning on the spot, is in my opinion much more constraining and more unhealthy to the meta. Every single switch-in is super fake and either dependent on prediction (other than maybe Grasspon or Amoonguss? idk haven't used them) or gets worn down quickly (Zama). The counterplay is that you run fast stuff to keep it in check, and that means it doesn't sweep you like the other borderline mons can, but it means that life is really hard for anything slower than it. It reminds me of , and I already hate lele; if lele had 110 base speed it would not be an OU mon.

My biggest complaint about the meta is that while the meta is fun and reasonably balanced, the off-meta is extremely scary and there's almost certainly some bunch of hyper-offense mons that just run you over. There's no one culprit for that, and that's partially why I'm kind of neutral on there being anything else broken in OU. The thing separating Gouging, Bolt and Moon from, like, Lucha or demon Latias for me is not their ability to 6-0 you if they get free for a moment, but their ability to do so consistently (this is partially because of tera, but there are also far more sweepers with minmaxed stats/crazy setup moves/broken STAB combos than there is room in OU). Banning things for being bullshit doesn't really feel like it makes sense in gen 9, it's a matter of how consistently they can do it, and to me, without to take a kill every time it comes in on a slower mon, there'd be a little less pressure to be fast and a bit more breathing room to lean on fatter cores that can actually handle HO sweepers consistently.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

I am extremely confused at the dialogue surround Tera Blast, and would appreciate any information or clarification. I am aware of the policy review thread. As it stands, we have pushed as a community to not pick and choose options for banning, i.e. Speed Boost Blaziken vs. Blaze Blaziken. In that mind set, what makes Tera Blast an exception? It is undeniably is tied to the mechanic of Tera, and no Pokemon I am aware of would use the move or is unarguably worse for not using it. In that mindset, how is banning Tera Blast any different from banning STAB Z-Moves, or banning Fighting and Flying type moves to prevent boosts from Dmax users?

It really seems like we are balancing a system mechanic rather than addressing it full stop. If the precedent for this is based on Last Respects and Shed Tail being banned, then that also feels incredibly flimsy for justification. Both moves are problematic for their abuse of immutable mechanics. Pokemon switch out, and pokemon faint, and having moves that benefit from scenarios that happen every single game is of course a bannable rational. Tera Blast however, is contingent on Tera to have any value whatsoever. The oppurtunities are frequent, yes, but is that a result of all the parts of a pokemon's kit working together exceedingly well or wholly Tera/Tera Blast ala Shed Tail and Last Respects? Moreover, if I understand the precendents set, then we have to prove that each and every single pokemon with access to the move is egregious with the move, and balanced/less problematic/okay in the tier without access.

I dont have an opinion either way, but this feels like slippery slope dynamics that will lead to shit arguments moving forward. The "this pokemon is balanced with these IV's" kind of stuff, wherein the less room to argue the better for everyone. Again, if I am unaware of a point previously made or if this itself was disscussed, please let me know. I hadn't seen this argument myself anywhere however, and felt it best to post for consideration's sake.

I find that interesting seeing as neither the complex bans on baton pass nor banning the move full stop despite several healthy users of the move and no real issue being associated with dryassing didn't lead to Kyogre with no water moves in OU or 0IV Zacian freed. Why would banning a move, like last respects or shed tail, that is fundamentally uncompetitive be a "slippery slope"?

 

[Heatranator]

i'm getting whiplash from the amount of people who are saying that one thing is broken then pivoting on a dime to saying another thing is broken. if we want to suspect Volc, then talk about Volc only.


Let's see what other massive metagame threats can pick and choose their counterplay based on their coverage move or set:

(Tera Flying/Fairy + Tera Blast or even normal moveset screws Tusk and Zama to an extent over, Tera Dark nukes stopgaps to the other Teras)
(Glowking just dies to a Tera Dark Knock Off, and you aren't switching in Blissey on a CC or like Dozo on a Specs Moonblast)
(Play Rough kills Dragons, Knock provides consistent utility against checks like Skarm)
(Tera Ground breaks through Tran and Glowking just as you mentioned)
(EQ and Taunt sets have wildly different counterplay, and you could just lose if you don't have counterplay to a set)
(Tera Fairy is a good defensive typing overall and helps vs. Gambit's Sucker Punch, while Tera Flying wins vs. Lando and Tusk)

The point is that Volc being able to pick and choose its checks is not a unique problem to it. Tera, the mechanic itself, lets many offensive threats choose their checks, and to suggest that Volc is the sole benefactor of this is just not true. It doesn't really do it any better than others as well; all of the things I just listed can be potentially game-ending if given a free turn thanks to Tera.

Fair, but volc does it to so far of a degree that its not even funny. The tera blast kingambit set is not even 5% usage on high ladder, so I don't know why that's discussed. It was something that was used beforehand, but its not even popular now. Valiant. Really? Valiant is an alright mon, but sure, it can pick and choose its counterplay. Waterpon basically wants to run play rough most of the time, but it's counterplay doesn't skew so far when it runs knock. Iron moth again is an alright mon but what set is it running besides tera ground? I've been running a tera blast rock set, so that could be one. Roaring moon has some consistent answers, for example corv/skarm still do decent against taunt variants as it has to tera in order to not get obliterated. But sure, why not. Gouging has some more consistent answers, such as tusk, which commonly runs ice spinner, which can 3hit ko tusk, while +2 flare blitz doesn't ohko tusk.
So we have, in terms of threats that can switch up their counterplay with one move, we have:
Iron Valiant
Iron Moth
Roaring Moon
I'd say Valiant and moth are balanced, so lets get them off the table. That just leaves roaring moon (funnily enough, a mon I also would like gone). Compared to moon, volc has much, much more options to blast the opponent with, its not even funny. Sure, taunt can screw over defensive counterplay, but there is at least some remorse against it. Dondozo can still somewhat beat it.
When I was talking about volc, I was saying it does it so, so much more than anyting else. Sure, everything can switch up its counterplay to some extent, but they usually are using less viable sets in order to switch up its counterplay. Volc, on the other hand, can do it much, much easier than anything else, with so much more variability. Even with just two common tera types, you can't accurately know what tera type it is (the team could tell you a bit, but I ain't betting my heatran on the fact that they have a weavile). All of these mons can be game-ending, but volc does that to an extreme degree that is extremely unhealthy for the metagame.

 

[YubelVT]

People aren't touching it because as far as problematic or contentious pokemon go, there are far worse examples and Kingambit is pretty low on that list. No one is "trying not to touch" it.

This meme was more appropriate during DLC1 but I'm bringing it back because I've seen a non zero amount of people complain about Gliscor recently. Gambit has completely and utterly warped the metagame around itself I don't understand why you people are so terrified of getting rid of it. If its defensive presence is so necessary to keep other pokemon in the tier, maybe they should also be banned! Novel concept I know!

 

[Heatranator]

This meme was more appropriate during DLC1 but I'm bringing it back because I've seen a non zero amount of people complain about Gliscor recently. Gambit has completely and utterly warped the metagame around itself I don't understand why you people are so terrified of getting rid of it. If its defensive presence is so necessary to keep other pokemon in the tier, maybe they should also be banned! Novel concept I know!
View attachment 622992

First off, you should replace gliscor with garg. Now that would make it even funnier. Because garg is not broken.
Secondly, while yes, the meta is somewhat centered around gambit, its not to the degree you believe. All the top mons would still be top even if it went. Sure, tusk valiant and zama would get worse, but that's like if, idk, weavile or ting-lu. They would still be top. It would cause a shift in the metagame, but not to the degree you think. I would still run tusk, even if gambit wasn't in the game. I honestly don't believe the line that it provides "defensive backbone". It has a great defensive typing, but you want to preserve that health for a sweep somewhat, and in that sense you don't defensively answer as much as it looks like.

 

[viol and bass]

I know this isn't actually a good reason to ban something, but something interesting about a Tera Blast ban is it could allow the extremely underutilized mechanic where moves under 60 BP are boosted to 60 when terastallized to actually become relevant in very specific situations, which would be way more mechanically interesting and balanced than Tera Blast. It's very very niche because it's a huge commitment to just get a 60 BP move, but as an example, Espathra could use something like Tera Ground Mud Slap to snipe Kingambit or Gholdengo. I'm not really sure what other applications this could have but It kinda becomes a conditional Hidden Power that maintains whatever secondary effects the base move has. Kinda neat imo. The entire class of moves is currently outclassed by Tera Blast.

I haven't looked into who gets what, but to see use, the mon has to not get more powerful coverage of that type (which is rare), and it has to be willing to use that tera type. I think the most relevant lower BP moves for the boost are ones with very useful coverage like Mud Slap, partial trapping like Sand Tomb or Whirlpool, cool secondary effects (Nuzzle, Acid spray, whatever else), and Draining Kiss. Dunno if anything relevant can make use of these though. Just something I was thinking about.

 

[Heatranator]

I know this isn't actually a good reason to ban something, but something interesting about a Tera Blast ban is it could allow the extremely underutilized mechanic where moves under 60 BP are boosted to 60 when terastallized to actually become relevant in very specific situations, which would be way more mechanically interesting and balanced than Tera Blast. It's very very niche because it's a huge commitment to just get a 60 BP move, but as an example, Espathra could use something like Tera Ground Mud Slap to snipe Kingambit or Gholdengo. I'm not really sure what other applications this could have but It kinda becomes a conditional Hidden Power that maintains whatever secondary effects the base move has. Kinda neat imo. The entire class of moves is currently outclassed by Tera Blast.

I haven't looked into who gets what, but to see use, the mon has to not get more powerful coverage of that type (which is rare), and it has to be willing to use that tera type. I think the most relevant lower BP moves for the boost are ones with very useful coverage like Mud Slap, partial trapping like Sand Tomb or Whirlpool, cool secondary effects (Nuzzle, Acid spray, whatever else), and Draining Kiss. Dunno if anything relevant can make use of these though. Just something I was thinking about.

Me and the boys with our tera electric nuzzle hatterene.

 

[YubelVT]

First off, you should replace gliscor with garg. Now that would make it even funnier. Because garg is not broken.
Secondly, while yes, the meta is somewhat centered around gambit, its not to the degree you believe. All the top mons would still be top even if it went. Sure, tusk valiant and zama would get worse, but that's like if, idk, weavile or ting-lu. They would still be top. It would cause a shift in the metagame, but not to the degree you think. I would still run tusk, even if gambit wasn't in the game. I honestly don't believe the line that it provides "defensive backbone". It has a great defensive typing, but you want to preserve that health for a sweep somewhat, and in that sense you don't defensively answer as much as it looks like.

the meme doesn't work with garg because gliscor was actually banned

 

[Dead by Daylight]

It seems like you missed the point of my post and are simply dismissing things, so I'll go over these responses.

Fair, but volc does it to so far of a degree that its not even funny. The tera blast kingambit set is not even 5% usage on high ladder, so I don't know why that's discussed. It was something that was used beforehand, but its not even popular now.

Sure, Kingambit may not run Tera Blast, but that's why I specified "even with the normal set". Kingambit beats BU Tusk with Tera Flying; it can pick and choose its counters, the very trait that you claim "Volc does to so far of a degree".

4 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Kingambit: 124-148 (33.5 - 40%) -- 29.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 256-303 (58.9 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Iron moth again is an alright mon but what set is it running besides tera ground? I've been running a tera blast rock set, so that could be one.

The set on the Smogdex has not just Tera Ground, but also Tera Fairy and Tera Grass. These all have varying checks that can potentially sweep teams after one Fiery Dance boost, which it can get much easier using Tera Fairy or Grass or abuse much better using Tera Grass and Tera Ground.

Gouging has some more consistent answers, such as tusk, which commonly runs ice spinner, which can 3hit ko tusk, while +2 flare blitz doesn't ohko tusk.

You have Morning Sun to recover off the damage, so over the long run Tera Flying Gouging beats non-Bulk Up Tusk.

I'd say Valiant and moth are balanced, so lets get them off the table.

I don't understand the purpose of this statement, and frankly it just adds to the DNB side's argument. You basically admit, with this statement, that there are things that are balanced in the metagame right now that can, just like Volcarona, pick and choose their checks.

That just leaves roaring moon (funnily enough, a mon I also would like gone). Compared to moon, volc has much, much more options to blast the opponent with, its not even funny. Sure, taunt can screw over defensive counterplay, but there is at least some remorse against it. Dondozo can still somewhat beat it.

What are these "much, much more options"? Volc, in the set listed on the Smogdex, can run three Tera types in Ground (the most predominant one from my knowledge), Water, and Fairy, as well as having Bug Buzz or Giga Drain interchangeably. It really can't switch its set to hit Dragons without Tera Fairy, which leaves it walled by Tran. It can't hit Tran without being walled by Dragonite. Anything Volc does will in fact decrease its ability to win in another matchup. Funnily enough, it shares this trait with the other mons that I mentioned in my post.

Sure, everything can switch up its counterplay to some extent, but they usually are using less viable sets in order to switch up its counterplay. Volc, on the other hand, can do it much, much easier than anything else, with so much more variability.

SD Valiant is not a "less viable set". Taunt and EQ are roughly equally viable sets on Roaring Moon. Gambit has approximately 3 million different Tera types, all having some level of viability, and its three main types (Dark, Flying, and Fire) are interchangeable from what I've seen. Gouging Fire can run Tera Fairy, Tera Ground, or maybe even Tera Flying like I mentioned. All of these sets are not "less viable" than one another.

 

[Alternator]

Lil bit late to the party but I still wanna talk about this

You know what we could just do? The... K... Uum...
Kalalokki Method, I think it's called? We can just straight up ban like everything that seems powerful rn. Volcarona, Tera Blast, and Gouging Fire in recent memory are really "oppressive" or just toxic mons for the metagame. Why focus on banning 1 thing when we can just get rid of all controversial mons, moves, and items? Let us move past this tyrant-esque POV in a democratic-esque voting system for a moment. So long as everyone can agree on what is COLLECTIVELY "TOXIC" with OU rn, then they can add that to this mass ban. And yk, just like the Kalalokki Method, we can just retest everything later.

This is coming from the same guy who wants tera gone tho so take what I say with a grain smaller than salt, but I do agree with you. Nobody knows what specifically is wrong with OU rn, so why not just... ban everything at once and try it later? Trust me bro CB Ting-Lu is too gud in OU fr fr we should add it to this list /j

I agree. We should ban Recover, Slack Off, Morning Sun, (any other Recover clones that get used in OU I'm forgetting), Rest, and Leftovers. Strength Sap makes progress so it can stay.

This is somehow a more reasonable solution than "Lets ban things that survived a suspect test already in DLC2" which should show how unrealistic your proposal is.