Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Tio Chico said:
My guess is just because of powercreep, a Pokemon with 490 base stat total doesn't have much of a chance in this insane meta.
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What does this have to do with anything? Cloddy is 60 lower and a reliable defensive stopgap to the tier's special attacking nightmares. If anything's holding it back, it has to be the exploitable weaknesses. lack of recovery, or, in this case, the opportunity cost of not running a better ability.
 
Carl_the_turtle said:
What does this have to do with anything? Cloddy is 60 lower and a reliable defensive stopgap to the tier's special attacking nightmares. If anything's holding it back, it has to be the exploitable weaknesses. lack of recovery, or, in this case, the opportunity cost of not running a better ability.
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I'd say that's a bit of it, though of course its not the full reason. Cloddy stats are min-maxed, it has low speed and special attack (stats it doesn't need for walling) and has high hp and special defense. It's attack and defense are servicable enough for it. The stats you actually use I'd call the 'real stats'. Cloddy has a 'real' BST of 365.
Compare that to geezing, who never uses its 60 speed for much, and it will always have an attack stat it doesn't use, which comes around to a 'real' 345 or 340 BST. That's a lot lower. It doesn't need both special attack and attack, it only needs one. Thus, its a lot lower.
I do agree with you on the fact that the other factors are important, but the BST is something to take account of.
 
It's time for another off-meta (bad) pick post ! In a meta where everyone struggles to find good kyurem answer and people refuse to run levitate bronzong, I decided to start experimenting with the number one sturdiest special wall in the game not named blissey: Regice. Sporting 200 spdef and a resistance to ice without being ground weak, regice seems like the ideal Kyurem switchin... except when you look at everything else: No recovery, no coverage, very limited utility moves (mostly just thunderwave), bad speed, bad damage output... BUT, it does what you want it to do very very well:

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Regice: 60-71 (16.4 - 19.5%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Regice: 172-204 (47.2 - 56%) -- 23.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

These would be good numbers if it wasn't for Regice's complete lack of recovery, however this can be fixed by huffing insane amounts of copium running it alongside terrain support, hail support for ice body or a wishpasser like Mola (which is coincidentally really good rn). Of course I had to test all three at the same time: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2099898694

Here's the set I used:

:regice: @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Leftovers
Ability: Ice Body
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Charge Beam
- Thunder Wave

Regice becomes surprisingly sturdy when it has passive recovery (like a bad heatran), especially when you factor in the defense boost from hail. Tera electric allows you to become neutral to every special hit because ground-type special attackers are mostly absent from the tier, being limited to lando which never invests spatk and drops to an ice beam and heatran which you can actually easily 1v1 if terrain or hail is up because Regice is just that specially bulky lol.

I wouldn't say regice is a good pick, but it surprised me by being not completely useless once provided with the right support. In the game I linked, I'd even say it really really pulled its weight. Makes me wonder about using Regirock (or Registeel?) on a terrain team for similar purposes but against physical attackers. I do think if these ever got recover they would shoot up the fucking tiers, maybe not to OU but at least UU. Anyways it was fun to try using Regice. What niche picks have you been trying lately?
 
Delibird Heart said:
It's time for another off-meta (bad) pick post ! In a meta where everyone struggles to find good kyurem answer and people refuse to run levitate bronzong, I decided to start experimenting with the number one sturdiest special wall in the game not named blissey: Regice. Sporting 200 spdef and a resistance to ice without being ground weak, regice seems like the ideal Kyurem switchin... except when you look at everything else: No recovery, no coverage, very limited utility moves (mostly just thunderwave), bad speed, bad damage output... BUT, it does what you want it to do very very well:

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Regice: 60-71 (16.4 - 19.5%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Regice: 172-204 (47.2 - 56%) -- 23.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

These would be good numbers if it wasn't for Regice's complete lack of recovery, however this can be fixed by huffing insane amounts of copium running it alongside terrain support, hail support for ice body or a wishpasser like Mola (which is coincidentally really good rn). Of course I had to test all three at the same time: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2099898694

Here's the set I used:

:regice: @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Leftovers
Ability: Ice Body
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Charge Beam
- Thunder Wave

Regice becomes surprisingly sturdy when it has passive recovery (like a bad heatran), especially when you factor in the defense boost from hail. Tera electric allows you to become neutral to every special hit because ground-type special attackers are mostly absent from the tier, being limited to lando which never invests spatk and drops to an ice beam and heatran which you can actually easily 1v1 if terrain or hail is up because Regice is just that specially bulky lol.

I wouldn't say regice is a good pick, but it surprised me by being not completely useless once provided with the right support. In the game I linked, I'd even say it really really pulled its weight. Makes me wonder about using Regirock (or Registeel?) on a terrain team for similar purposes but against physical attackers. I do think if these ever got recover they would shoot up the fucking tiers, maybe not to OU but at least UU. Anyways it was fun to try using Regice. What niche picks have you been trying lately?
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As someone that has used regirock and registeel (Morkal used regice before), they both are alright.
Regirock is a mon I have less experience with, but it is a very dangerous offensive threat that can take so many hits. I ev'd it to live two specs kyurem freeze drys, and by using rock blast, it can deal quite a lot of damage. A set of rock blast, body press, stealth rocks and ice punch is quite threatening.
Registeel however, is a fucking menace if left unchecked. It gets all of id, amnesia and bp, which means it can be a crit me not sweeper. Once you get rid of ghost types, and find an opportunity to switch in (which is easy enough since steel resists so many common types) you can start boosting. The recovery issue may be an issue usually, but since you are taking like 10% per hit, rest is enough for you. In fact, the two turns can actually be beneficial in pp stalling corv easier (though you do need to have it waste pp beforehand to properly do this. Combine that with tera fighting, and even glowking and hatterene, two mons who quad resist the move, get absolutely shalacked by it (I think its a 4 hit ko). There is a reason why I nominated it for D rank in the VR, if you remove ghost types and position it well, it is the easiest win you will ever have.
But anyway, I've been using meloetta with a mixed set. Really destroys stall and teams that just try to pivot bulky resists around. You get 1-2 relic song procs per game and that is really amazing. If I can get higher on ladder with it, I might make an RMT and nominate for the viability rankings.
 
Carl_the_turtle said:
What does this have to do with anything? Cloddy is 60 lower and a reliable defensive stopgap to the tier's special attacking nightmares. If anything's holding it back, it has to be the exploitable weaknesses. lack of recovery, or, in this case, the opportunity cost of not running a better ability.
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Clod is the exception that maintains the rule. Although you almost always need to perform the same set with minimal variations as it checks specific things.
 
Ngl talk/type is cheap, if u want to say a niche pokemon is good/viable, plz provide replays imo. Any1 can talk/type but plz provide quality replays of said mon putting in work first, doesnt have to be some godly high mmr game just a regular game where u can tell the opponent isnt clueless and said mon putting in the work. Could just be me who feels that way tho
 
weirdo faye said:
Ngl talk/type is cheap, if u want to say a niche pokemon is good/viable, plz provide replays imo. Any1 can talk/type but plz provide quality replays of said mon putting in work first, doesnt have to be some godly high mmr game just a regular game where u can tell the opponent isnt clueless and said mon putting in the work. Could just be me who feels that way tho
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https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2076966535?p2
Yeah, this opponent actually played well against registeel. As soon as I got my first boost off, they switched into zapdos to try and ko it. Then, when they couldn't, they switched to tusk to knock off the lefties. After doing one turn of bp with tusk, they switched to toxapex to try to stall it out. But they couldn't, it was simply too powerful. Once I was able to remove the ghost type, the whole team fell apart.
And before somebody says "oh, but its 1400s gameplay" tell me what else where they meant to do?
 
? i havnt even logged in for a small bit now and theres been so many posts before urs, idk why u think i was referring to u in particular y so sensitive and tag me
Heatranator said:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2076966535?p2
Yeah, this opponent actually played well against registeel. As soon as I got my first boost off, they switched into zapdos to try and ko it. Then, when they couldn't, they switched to tusk to knock off the lefties. After doing one turn of bp with tusk, they switched to toxapex to try to stall it out. But they couldn't, it was simply too powerful. Once I was able to remove the ghost type, the whole team fell apart.
And before somebody says "oh, but its 1400s gameplay" tell me what else where they meant to do?
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i had a quick look, his pex was missing haze and running an unholy set in general, wat makes u think its a quality replay? thanks for calling urself out :L
 
Heatranator said:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2076966535?p2
Yeah, this opponent actually played well against registeel. As soon as I got my first boost off, they switched into zapdos to try and ko it. Then, when they couldn't, they switched to tusk to knock off the lefties. After doing one turn of bp with tusk, they switched to toxapex to try to stall it out. But they couldn't, it was simply too powerful. Once I was able to remove the ghost type, the whole team fell apart.
And before somebody says "oh, but its 1400s gameplay" tell me what else where they meant to do?
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Well your opponent seemed to just not have encore Waterpon (which would've completely decimated this team), sacced their unviable breaker early (Hisui Typhlosion, for some reason), clicked Knock into the +2 Dark resist, and like Faye said wasn't really running the best of sets.
I really don't think Registeel deserves a spot on the VR or is all that you hyped it up to be: it needs a LOT of boosts and a burnt Tera to really get going, and all to be a worse Zamazenta in almost every way. D tier is for mons that have even the slightest of niches in this tier: I don't see what niche Registeel can offer. Want a Crit Me Not sweeper? Manaphy still exists, and it's much more threatening than Registeel.
 
weirdo faye said:
? i havnt even logged in for a small bit now and theres been so many posts before urs, idk why u think i was referring to u in particular y so sensitive and tag me

i had a quick look, his pex was missing haze and running an unholy set in general, wat makes u think its a quality replay? thanks for calling urself out :L
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I mean, what post are you talking about? The one about regice? That provided a replay. The one about thundurus-i? That provided plenty of replays. So, by process of elimination, I would think you would be talking about my one. Especially since in the past you have said that I "type a million words" and you commented right after the post where I talked a decent amount about registeel and how good it was.
It was a 'quality replay' because you said, and I quote:
weirdo faye said:
doesnt have to be some godly high mmr game just a regular game where u can tell the opponent isnt clueless and said mon putting in the work.
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Now, lets look at that replay. Was the opponent clueless? I'd say no. Was the pex set unconventional? Yes, yes it was. But, if you look at the steps they did, that wasn't clueless. They switched into a mon that threatened registeel, then when I rested up, they knocked off the lefties and try to cut there losses. Were they the best player? No, no they were not. But that's not what you were trying to say. You were trying to say "said mon putting in the work", which is exactly what registeel did. It put in the work, and was able to clutch out the game.
 
MaahirMomtaz12 said:
Eternal Flower Floette can't evolve. It has stats similar to Florges, with more Special Attack and Speed but at the cost of less Special Defense
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ZA could change all that, gamefreak has been very unpredictable with powercreep after all considering the gen we are in

Regardless, let's get back to talking about what we have to deal with now with Waterpon being a busted goober
 
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Heatranator said:
I mean, what post are you talking about? The one about regice? That provided a replay. The one about thundurus-i? That provided plenty of replays. So, by process of elimination, I would think you would be talking about my one. Especially since in the past you have said that I "type a million words" and you commented right after the post where I talked a decent amount about registeel and how good it was.
It was a 'quality replay' because you said, and I quote:

Now, lets look at that replay. Was the opponent clueless? I'd say no. Was the pex set unconventional? Yes, yes it was. But, if you look at the steps they did, that wasn't clueless. They switched into a mon that threatened registeel, then when I rested up, they knocked off the lefties and try to cut there losses. Were they the best player? No, no they were not. But that's not what you were trying to say. You were trying to say "said mon putting in the work", which is exactly what registeel did. It put in the work, and was able to clutch out the game.
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They're running two, arguably three suboptimal sets. And forgetting that, you made a questionable play staying in after hurricane was revealed with zap, nearly losing the mon you're trying to showcase and hard committing when you probably could've played it out longer and removed zap without risking as much.

The reason people disregard lower elo replays is because they're just not good more often than not, it's not anything about anyone specifically. After a certain point, you do start to see why they're not really used as examples. They're very disorganized for a lack of a better descriptor, questionable teams, sets, and plays. And they were kind of clueless, you revealed a set with two setup moves and rest, more often than not the only other move you'd have would've been Body Press, which I had originally assumed and had to rewatch and make sure. I'm not sure about this, but watching better players and often listening to them talk it out with other people, I think their best play would've been to stick with zap, even if it doesn't kill, you risk either static, or messing up due to helmet chip.
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
then why are you avoiding it as much as possible? use fewer abbreviations for christ's sake, this isn't a text message
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soooo wht am i avoiding here? and what is this then... english class? dont see how im affecting anyone negatively w how i type other u finding it an eyesore, always how ive grown used to typing. is there a rule that says i cant? and u paying my salary or something...? if not u dont get to tell me what to do :bloblul:
 
^we can construe similar sentiments with better tones that show respect for everyone, I promise it’s possible

Heatranator’s replay holds virtually no weight to me because it showcased a game that was played in a bizarre fashion with insufficient teams. This is not to mention it’s a one game sample, which is extremely manipulatable in its own right. It wasn’t a serious showcase of much of anything in the metagame given that.

You can be matter of fact without getting personal or insulting. Being real with someone is perfectly fine, but there’s a line that you can’t cross with personal stuff.
 
FayaWizard said:
What do you all think of Garganacl in current SV OU? It's seen a rise in usage and viability, with balance teams returning to the metagame and Garganacl feasting on them. The rocky boy has always been a controversial figure in the tier, as Salt Cure can be a massive pain to deal with when combined with Gargnacl's 2 in 1 ability Purifying Salt, but Garganacl also is a big Tera hog due to its poor base typing, and can struggle with hazards due to wanting Leftovers.

Is Garganacl worth all that hype? Banworthy, even? Or do you think it's just another threat in the tier, even overrated?
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Incredibly solid mon, love using him, hate facing him, great defensive check and chip at the cost of your tera slot. Banworthy though? Ehhh. Could maybe see him getting a suspect slot 10-12 mons down the line, but as of right now there are more threatening mons that do more for their slot and get greater payoff out of tera rather than needing it to get up and going. It can be a menace once it gets off the ground, for sure, but its setup leaves it vulnerable to most of the tier's special threats and its chip, while potent, can be entirely ignored with regen spam or clef/subserp/subprim (though the latter is a little more niche).
 
Garg is a tera hog, has to get an IDef off to be good otherwise it just gets Kowtowed or Knocked or whatever. Very annoying though, I wish HDB made you immune to Salt Cure
 
FayaWizard said:
What do you all think of Garganacl in current SV OU? It's seen a rise in usage and viability, with balance teams returning to the metagame and Garganacl feasting on them. The rocky boy has always been a controversial figure in the tier, as Salt Cure can be a massive pain to deal with when combined with Gargnacl's 2 in 1 ability Purifying Salt, but Garganacl also is a big Tera hog due to its poor base typing, and can struggle with hazards due to wanting Leftovers.

Is Garganacl worth all that hype? Banworthy, even? Or do you think it's just another threat in the tier, even overrated?
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Annoying but fine for the tier, like Pex was in prior gens before its movepool got destroyed. Garg reminds me a lot of pre nerf Pex in that way
 
Finchinator said:
Imma be real: leading SV OU has been a trip lately. No matter what is acted on or purposefully left untouched, the majority of people are going to find themselves upset with something relevant to the metagame. You could ask a dozen top players (including people on the council) what the problem with the metagame is and likely come up with close to a dozen unique answers ranging from nothing at all to wanting a lot of bans. There’s the people in the middle, myself included, who just want one or two things to go now, too.

Something I’ve accepted since I took over last generation is you can’t please everyone and, if you try to do that, you’re just going to end up disappointed. So while I listen to everything people say, I do it mostly to inform myself and potentially even share with the council or fuel justifications, not necessarily to dictate every last decision as it’s impossible to make decisions that jive with every informed perspective - they have impossible overlap far more often than not when you take a decent sample after all.

Tera is a great example of this as plenty of good players still want it acted on, but the majority clearly doesn’t and it feels like the writing is on the wall when it comes to a full ban given what we have seen. Some people accept this premise and focus on the next steps to make the current situation more competitive/balanced while certain others act out of protest and spite, voting to not ban anything ever again until course changes, spamming the survey with extreme scores for every option, and haha reacting posts before they can even read them fully. It’s an interesting range and just taking it all in from afar is kinda reflective of actual society in a lot of ways. I’ve always found that interesting about how people handle stuff.

Similar to Tera as a whole, a lot of Pokemon prompt a scattered range of responses from players, too. A lot of guys want us to overhaul stuff and quickban various Pokemon, which is really extreme and wouldn’t even be possible as nothing has council support for a quickban. Others want us to leave the tier as is and view it ideal. The reality will always find itself in the middle, which often leads to suspect tests.

Finding 60% on anything right now is really a challenge and you can make of that what you will. Personally I think it’s just due to variable beliefs and understandings of what is broken in a tier with so many options, especially with the cap for possibilities blown up with the Tera dynamic kept in mind.

Stuff like Wellspring is arguably textbook broken due to lack of good switchins, but a lot of people mention metagame context with hazards and speed tiers. Stuff like Volcarona can put an immense strain on preservation in the battle and even having sufficient measures for it in the builder, but a lot of people mention the handful of stops and metagame evolutions that can stifle it or the fact that it can only do so much within any single set. You can extend this give-and-take logic to other Pokemon like Kyurem or Dragapult as well, which people have called for action on while others have vehemently opposed action on.

I think that like just about every other generation, more of a consensus will come with more time and development, especially as the tier grows closer to a settled state. With Tera and power creep on both ends, it definitely takes longer to reach that point this generation, evidenced by prior states like DLC1. However, we will get there. Just hoping people keep an open mind in the meantime rather than being defeatist or counterproductive. Don’t think the tier is terribly far from where it needs to be and I am having fun despite some limitations.
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So what’s the plan here? Are you guys not suspecting Volc? I agree the meta is a few moves away from being Ok (although my enjoyment has really gone down lately) but it sounds like you don’t think there’s a route for that.
 
East Coast Elite said:
So what’s the plan here? Are you guys not suspecting Volc? I agree the meta is a few moves away from being Ok (although my enjoyment has really gone down lately) but it sounds like you don’t think there’s a route for that.
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Plan is to suspect Volc in the next day or two still. May have a larger philosophical/directional discussion down the line depending on results and how people feel moving forward.
 
FayaWizard said:
What do you all think of Garganacl in current SV OU? It's seen a rise in usage and viability, with balance teams returning to the metagame and Garganacl feasting on them. The rocky boy has always been a controversial figure in the tier, as Salt Cure can be a massive pain to deal with when combined with Gargnacl's 2 in 1 ability Purifying Salt, but Garganacl also is a big Tera hog due to its poor base typing, and can struggle with hazards due to wanting Leftovers.

Is Garganacl worth all that hype? Banworthy, even? Or do you think it's just another threat in the tier, even overrated?
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:Garganacl:
Interesting guy, his viability kinda comes and goes as things that threaten him rise and fall. My feeling on him is that he's a matchup fish more than anything. Against strong teams like Hazard stack, ogerpon, and stuff that has recovery like grassy terrain, gliscor etc. he really fails to strike any fear into the opponent and as a result feels like a sub par use of a slot. However against teams that overly rely upon dragapult as blanket pressure/checks to a large variety of stuff, or teams that need to set up before doing much damage (like dragonite, non-cloak ghold, even bulk up tusk) salt cure really throws a wrench into their plans and can be a major issue. Vs stall and super bulky balances yeah he's not gonna do much. Without leftovers he gets chipped and without boots he can't switch around enough, and he will run out of recovery before his opponents do. And vs weather based HO he gets absolutely smacked by Raging Bolt on rain, Walking Wake on sun, and Kyurem on snow.

In Kumiko's SPL team dump they talk about gravitating towards Garganacl when predicting offense. So I guess we could say that he's good on Bulky Offense or Balance into other non-Rillaboom offense.

edit: just saw this lol
1712780531636.png
 
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Duck Chris said:
1712780531636.png
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1712781275220.png

But on garg, its an alright mon. I did underestimate it a bit, but I still believe that when facing it, you just hit it. Don't be scared of the salt cure damage, just switch into your attacker that can deal with garg and do damage. Most likely, the garg user will either have to take the hit, thus saccing the garg, if they don't have another mon that can take the hit, or be forced to switch out, meaning something else will have to take it. I know in the past I said 'don't be passive' but this is what I meant by that. I do disagree with the stall part though, garg can be a nightmare for stall. Clef while immune to salt cure chip, can't do much to it in return. It gets overwhelmed by either curse garg or id bp garg. The main answer on stall is dondozo, who was to get lucky with sleep talk turns and has to not get crit multiple times. Most of the time, you are able to deal with garg, but its difficult for stall. Also, knock off the lefties with gliscor first, that's a necessity otherwise it will win.
 
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