fuck it, why not, current meta's got like 12 ubers in it anyway, might as well blow it completely to hell
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
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My issue with a second ladder is that we had a thing like that once in Gen 6 UU, where they made a no-Scald meta that some people did like, but it wasn't popular enough to continue or make any real lasting impact on the tier. And while Gen 6 UU and Gen 9 OU obviously isn't a 1:1 comparison, I do feel like the same kind of issue would arise where a ladder with something like Lugia in it wouldn't be popular enough to warrant Lugia (or whatever Ubers you want to have in OU) to actually drop.
From personal experience, there are definitely games going on up there right now, they're just all privated because most people don't want to deal with 20+ people raiding them per game/+potential scouting if testing a team for major comp.
(apologies if this was heavy sarcasm i'm still working on that)
Damn, it's Joever
oh fuck me that's why people suddenly start knowing my teams out of nowhere whenever i reach 1700s. i'm an idiot. would you believe i completely forgot that was a feature
Yes, and I wouldn't blame you for forgetting it lol.
I think the moral of this story is what is posted on Twitter stays in Twitter. Bro wanted to post something other than chicken tendies/wings and then everyone's talking about what fraud Uber they wanna bring in to OU like they're trying to domesticate a bear or tiger cub cause they saw cute pics online. In someways, it reminds me of Smashboards competitive thread as people would flip between errant speculation or complaining about the meta when there was a lull in events.
Is Tera Blast going to be discussed/dealt with internally like how sleep handled as I feel any action with Volc will be muddled at best without a clear stance on Tera Blast
The Volcarona suspect is good news. I don't know if it will result in a ban, but it should at least result in directional change of some sort. Personally, I would prefer a ban. While it's not as high as my top 2 for me personally, Volc is representative of a lot of things people dislike about the current meta like matchup fishing.
It is also probably too much for a Tera meta. I am very much in the anti-Tera crowd, but I don't want to see Volc fail to get a ban just because there are folks hoping that some action on Tera or Tera Blast would then be taken. Volc is its own problem and not having to match up with it would take a lot of pressure off of the builder. No action on Tera or Tera Blast is guaranteed anyways regardless of what happens.
It's not enough anymore to say a mon cannot be switched into or can reverse their bad matchups with Tera. And every single current borderline case can be built against. Just at the expense of checking other things in this threat saturated meta. But individually, anything including Volc can probably be justified in this way by a lot of folks. Volcarona needs to have stronger pro-ban arguments than this or we already know it won't get banned.
Also, guys, we got a new suspect coming up soon and folks are talking in about Deoxys-N and Lugia? Shouldn't we be preparing our Volcarona arguments to make sure they are more thorough than they have been coming into some of the more recent suspects? Not to police the comment section or anything. It just seems like a waste of effort to go into such detail at this time on something that can't happen the way things are. Maybe, just maybe if Volc fails to get a ban then we could discuss alternatives. Like I stopped talking about my alternative solutions with BE or whatever because it's clearly not the time to continue to bring that up.
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
It is also probably too much for a Tera meta. I am very much in the anti-Tera crowd, but I don't want to see Volc fail to get a ban just because there are folks hoping that some action on Tera or Tera Blast would then be taken. Volc is its own problem and not having to match up with it would take a lot of pressure off of the builder. No action on Tera or Tera Blast is guaranteed anyways regardless of what happens.
It's not enough anymore to say a mon cannot be switched into or can reverse their bad matchups with Tera. And every single current borderline case can be built against. Just at the expense of checking other things in this threat saturated meta. But individually, anything including Volc can probably be justified in this way by a lot of folks. Volcarona needs to have stronger pro-ban arguments than this or we already know it won't get banned.
Also, guys, we got a new suspect coming up soon and folks are talking in about Deoxys-N and Lugia? Shouldn't we be preparing our Volcarona arguments to make sure they are more thorough than they have been coming into some of the more recent suspects? Not to police the comment section or anything. It just seems like a waste of effort to go into such detail at this time on something that can't happen the way things are. Maybe, just maybe if Volc fails to get a ban then we could discuss alternatives. Like I stopped talking about my alternative solutions with BE or whatever because it's clearly not the time to continue to bring that up.
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
Urshifu Rapid might be okay but I don't know if we need another strong wall-breaker. Punching glove removes a lot of the counterplay to rapid strike while still powering up its moves, although it does block unseen fist. At least it's vulnerable to Rilla and Bolt I guess. This is definitely a lot more manageable than any of the other suggestions at least.
I don't see single strike working though. Adamant black glasses wicked blow is pretty disgusting, +2 wicked blow can ohko Corviknight after rocks. It's ~ fallen 3 Gambit's kowtow only you can't ID to beat it. Hardly any fairies in the tier to punish it either.
Not particularly honestly. SD+Punching Glove has so very little defensive counterplay that isn't "use Dondozo", and depending on tera types, can bypass would be counterplay. Like Tera Dragon/Grass hurts Rilla and Bolt as counterplay while also bypassing Waterpon too. It's a dumb mon that is, imo, only slightly worse than Palafin by trading priority against offense for the ability to crush defense even harder, faster. It's not something I think is worth considering unless something seriously changed in the tier.
Unlikely anything happens on Tera Blast right now
I'll start this off.
I believe that the claims that volc have 'defensive utility' are shallow (I'm not meaning this in a mean way, I just think that there is more depth to what volc checks). I would like to go through them.
Firstly, we have grass types. In OU we have 4 grass types. They are Meowscarada, Rillaboom, Ogerpon-Wellspring and Serperior.
Meowscarada: Volc is a decent mon against this. It cannot switch into knock off, that's horrible for it. However, everything else it does pretty well against. But meowscarada is a mid mon, so volc is not worth keeping around to check it.
Ogerpon Wellspring: Volc does not counter this, I think everybody knows why. But I still wanted to get this out of the way so nobody later on comments on it. If you don't know, water beats fire.
Rillaboom: Firstly, rillaboom is not broken (we all know who I am addresing when saying this). Now, volc is an amazing counter to this. The most common rilla set is band, which volc can basically sit on. So that's one mon.
Serperior: Like meow, this is mid. It does quad resist grass, but volc can't reliably beat this. The best set, which is sub+leech+glare, can potentially beat it. But that can potentially beat a lot of mons. I'll give that.
Next, ice types. We have Kyurem and Weavile.
Kyurem: This is the main one people talk about when saying that volc has defensive utility. However, volc doesn't truly counter this. Yes, it takes freeze drys extremely well while not being weak to earth power, but it can't switch into draco's as easily. Boots kyurem draco does 54% minimum, which is a lot. And if its specs, it does 80% minimum. This does not look like a true counter to me. If volc is chipped even slightly, then specs variants destroy it. If its HDB variants, they still have to be careful. I'll give this a half point, I don't believe this fully counters kyurem, but what truly does.
Weavile: Does not counter it. +2 knock off has a very good chance to ohko it. It can switch into triple axel, but that's still doing 30%. Weavile also outspeeds, so if volc is chipped even 12%, it has a good chance to go down. Not countering this.
Finally, we have fairy types. In OU we have iron valiant, enamorus, hatterene, clefable and primarina (no, ribombee doesn't count).
Iron valiant: The other big thing that volc checks, but it does have issues. SD variants can beat it as at +2, knock has a chance to OHKO. Calm mind variants can do well against it, but that's only one set. Plus, if valiant decides to run liquidation, its ggs. That's a really niche move, but it is something. Plus, valiant isn't broken. I doubt it will ever be broken, so why keep a mon that is problematic in its own right? Another half point.
Enamorus: Volc absolutely counters this. However, when has enamorus been a problem?
Hatterene: On paper, volc should beat it, however in practice it does not. Hatterene commonly runs nuzzle, which ruins volc unless it teras ground. Plus, psyshock at +1 always 2hit kos. So volc isn't truly answering it. Another half point, but is hatterene really a problem?
Clefable: Beats clefable, but once again, is it really a problem?
Primarina: Does not beat this. Prim beats most volc sets except for the tera grass giga drain set, but that is very niche. Its not coming in on surf, and cannot ko it back.
So, adding up all the mons, the things that volc counters fully (valiant, hatterene are it can somewhat counter) are:
Kyurem (doubt this but I'll give it)
Rillaboom
Serperior
Meowscarada
Enamorus
Clefable
6 mons that it truly counters, 5 of which are not problematic. Only one, which is kyurem, in which it doesn't even counter all its sets.
Oh, and the flame body thing, that I don't believe is enough of a reason to keep it. Rocky helmet is right there, removing volc will not mean contact moves will become too hard to deal with.
Overall, the defensive qualities of volc are not enough to keep it around when it blasts through everything. This list is assuming its switching into these moves, if they switch into volc most lose.
If I missed any, please tell me.
I understand. Logically it makes sense given how Smogon works, though I imagine many will have trouble wrangling with 'Volc should judged as is" versus "Tera Blast is the problem" similar to how people leapt to Gliscor's defense during the DLC1 meta by pointing to Ghold's presence in the tier making hazard removal feel super awful (even though an earlier poster showed that it was the lack of Defog all round that made hazard removal anemic in this gen)
I just want to point out that Meowscarada can run Tera Fire to avoid burns on teams that really rely on it and/or its Knock Off. There are certain team structures that run a lot of HBD mons, hazards, and can use Meow as one of the only one or two main attackers. IMO, Tera Fire Meow might actually be the best one. Even if Volc were to be banned, burn threats still exist all over the tier. So this would likely be unchanged.
Volcarona doesn't necesarrily beat Unaware Clef, which can get past the Quiver Dance defensive boosts as well. As long as it has setup and a move that isn't just Fairy STAB, such as Stored Power or even Flamethrower, Clef would win that exchange. Clefable is weird because what it can beat varies wildly depending on the set. Like how Unaware would help against Volc but hurt against D-Speed Psycho Boost.
Also, I'm surprised you didn't mention that Volc can get T-waved by Clef when you talked about Hatt's Nuzzle being a problem. Tera Ground to avoid this would be bad since you would no longer resist Moon Blast.
I didn't think about tera fire meow, that's something that can beat it.
I judged clefable on its most common set, which runs stealth rocks, knock, moonblast and moonlight. T-wave on clefable does beat it, but that's used 15% of the time, so not a lot. Unaware clef also is only run 25% of the time.
Though of course, you are right in this sense. It counters even less, and yet it still is a major problem on any structures that try to have some form of defense. It's like volc doesn't switch into much, but nothing much wants to switch into it. I ultimately think a mon like that which doesn't have very obvious flaws (hoopa-u's lack of defense and u-turn weakness and luna's slow speed) is not healthy for the metagame.
Do you know what's the definition of a counter is? "Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case". Volca is not a counter to any of those mons, except maybe Clef and the pink blob can still fuck it up with encore and T-Wave. Volca gets trashed by Phys Kyu and hates dragon stab from special, Band Meow will always 2HKO even the defensive set, Band Rilla might not OHKO but not only you still take a ton of damage you risk your losing your boots on Knock and if it's less than 60 it's a KO, Enamorous can beat Volca if it's CM+Taunt, and Serp is a whole can of worms but definitely not a counter thanks to those Stellar boosts. Like I support a suspect on Volca even if I don't see it as broken but need some better stuff than that.
When people discuss Volc’s utility, they mainly mean that it is able to compress frequent holes on offense: being able to switch into Ice and Fairy is pretty huge and unique. Not many resists to Ice exist on offense aside from Kingambit, which is weak to EP from Kyurem for example, while not many Fairy resists exist on offense either, especially with Glimmora primarily being an early game option.
This doesn’t have anything to do with Volc being broken or not, but it’s a commonly referred to point and doesn’t have much to do with truly countering these Pokemon. It more has to do with gameflow and single sequences rather than resorting to more fodder than normal when using offense honestly. I think your post kinda does a deep dive that misses the point.
Coming from a guy who runs mostly hyper offense and bulky offense,
is one of my go-to’s when I need a Fairy or Ice check. And it does wonders for me in that role. I think you’re vastly undermining Volcarona’s defensive utility. I’m not saying Fairies/Ice types will go wild if its gone, but it does serve as a great check to these on offensive builds. Overall I dont think its presence is unhealthy to the tier because it has good check/counters and undeniable defensive utility.
1. I said, it can't beat kyurem truely. It takes way too much damage to it. I listed it as a counter because as I said "doubt it, but I'll give it" due to people saying that is the biggest defensive reason. Dd kyurem is at 19% usage, so not common.
2. I didn't count band meow, because that is only on 17% of teams. But fine, it does beat it.
3. Band rilla mostly clicks grass moves, and it still has to watch out for burns. If you want to say rilla beats it, then cool.
4. Calm mind+taunt enamorus is at best 16% usage. That's if you give it the best shot, but its more like 12%. That is not a common set, so idk why I should discuss it. Plus, volc 4hit kos it at +1 sp defense.
5. I acknowledged that serp is a mon that can somehow beat its checks, I stated that when going over it. Also, even at +2, tera blast stellar doesn't ko it unless it gets to below 45% health. And fiery dance still kos it if serp is 80% or lower.
It feels like you just read the end of the post, I went over a few of these points in my post. I discussed about kyurem and serp already, and how volc is a shaky counter. The band meow and enam parts are stuff that are much less common. The only new thing is rilla, so I'll give you that.
To bounce off of MegaScizor32's post, I feel that you're missing the point of Volc's supposed defensive utility. It's not meant to be a hard counter to much - rather, it's meant to be a stopgap on offensive teams for insurance against threats like Rillaboom and CB Weav going for a greedy Triple Axel as well as come with great offensive threat potential.
CB weavile is at 4% usage, it is not common at all. Yes, it does deinsentives triple axel, that is something that I will give you. However, volc still cannot switch into knock off, the move I would say is more threatening on weavile. Rocky helmet already somewhat deinsentivises triple axel with stuff like corv and lando-t (though lando is in no way surviving). Its a very poor stopgap in my opinion, yes, it resists the move, but it can't truly pivot around it by either applying pressure or getting in a teammate for mostly free.
Lets look at the mons that I said it couldn't beat: these are Valiant, Hatterene, Wellspring, Weavile, Primarina. (I said that kyurem it could potentially beat, but nothing wants to take a draco apart from fairy types)
Valiant: I said before that it beats sets apart from SD, so I'll exclusively talk about sd. It takes a cc, and maybe gets a flame body proc. If it doesn't, what can it do? It can threaten a fiery dance ko which will be devestating. However, if its at +2, valiant will always go for the knock, thats a straight up ko. Now you have to switch to something else, which will have to eat a huge hit and get its item removed. So it doesn't do much.
Hatterene: Volc pivots in, and if it wants to, tera grounds on the nuzzle. If can draw a psyshock, which is something you can easily play around. So there is something that it can do for hatterene.
Wellspring: It has to come in on either a play rough or a power whip. If it gets a flame body proc, then that's cool. It then draws an ivy cudgel, which you have to switch to a water resist. However, the main move it will be clicking is ivy cudgel, so you have to predict them using those moves. Something, but not a whole lot.
Weavile: The best of this list probably. If it switches into triple axel, it has a good chance to get a burn. If it doesn't, then it has to draw a knock off.
Primarina: You are drawing a surf, which while alright, isn't the best pivoting move. Most mons don't want to switch into a surf, for reference rilla takes 46% from it and raging bolt is three hit ko'd. Something, but I don't think that is the best.
So, for all of these, yes, volc does help a bit with them. However, its a poor stop gap. It has to predict correct in order to not get ko'd and then forces these mons into a really devestating move. The only one which is maybe right is hatterene, but hatterene is not much of a big deal.
I get that you are trying to say "it has more defensive utility than you say" but that defensive utility is limited. Again, rocky helmet is literally an item that does the same, but doesn't have to worry about chance.
I just want to point out that we have a lot of viable Fire types in the tier and some more that can probably be used. Most Fire and Steel types are going to resist Ice and/or Fairy, besides the naturally bulky Gouging Fire. One issue is these tend to be weak to Ground coverage such as Earth Power or sacrificing something to get that. For example, the metal birds and even Moltres being immune to Ground but neutral to Ice. There are also a lot of Steel types that are only neutral to Fairy or Ice. Volcarona is neutral to Ground without sacrificing either of those two resists.
Scizor would actually have somewhat similar defensive utility in this regard while being able to threaten out most Ice and Fairy types. Iron Moth is weak to Ground, but could come in on Ice or Fairy moves in a similar way. Same for H-Arcanine.
It's also maybe possible to run separate mons as Fairy and Ice resists since not much tends to run both types of moves at a high power level. But it is hard to find that with the current pool of mons, particularly since Water types have to worry about Freeze Dry so much.
Scizor would actually have somewhat similar defensive utility in this regard while being able to threaten out most Ice and Fairy types. Iron Moth is weak to Ground, but could come in on Ice or Fairy moves in a similar way. Same for H-Arcanine.
It's also maybe possible to run separate mons as Fairy and Ice resists since not much tends to run both types of moves at a high power level. But it is hard to find that with the current pool of mons, particularly since Water types have to worry about Freeze Dry so much.
Volcarona is super good in OU and unlikely broken. The only thing that isn’t predictable about it is its Tera type. The counter play to it can be standardised for any team structure:
there’s always a catch to every Tera type.
for example, the most deadly one, Tera ground, invites aqua jet, ice shard and grassy glide counterplay. The most recently trendy one, Tera dragon, risks getting blanked by Primarina, tera fairy raging bolt, etc.
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When comparing Volcarona to other contentious pokemon:
Basically, in a vacuum these all sound broken, but in the current iteration of OU they’re fairly balanced by each other. Except I’m still hugely in favour of a kingambit ban rn , as I think it’ll open the floodgates.
- Stall - blissey, clod, etc
- Bulky - scout pivot (such as glowking) + a check or 2, and potentially back up tera’s
- Balanced/hybrid - mixed checks, a responsive Tera, or offensive pressure, such as luring volc into sub 80% with mixed hasty/naive Kyurem that runs scale shot +3A
- HO - HO needs a solution for every sweeper, usually it’s just out speeding and out pressuring
there’s always a catch to every Tera type.
for example, the most deadly one, Tera ground, invites aqua jet, ice shard and grassy glide counterplay. The most recently trendy one, Tera dragon, risks getting blanked by Primarina, tera fairy raging bolt, etc.
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When comparing Volcarona to other contentious pokemon:
- the king of OU needs 3-4 ways of countering/checking it, and most of them need to be healthy when it’s at 3-5 allies fainted.
- The raging clap has a ridiculously effective, although predictable Tera fairy that allows it to get past almost any offensive counterplay after it pulls down a threat. Although usually it comes at a cost since almost every team has anti-fairy counterplay now. It’s also impossible for it to deal with bulkier teams that can chip it if it’s not running HDB, as the booster sets only like coming in once, and it doesn’t open up teams the way that the following threat does;
- Roaring knock off is very easy to check, especially with balloon steels, although it opens up holes in teams very efficiently, has a progress making knock off that puts the competition to shame and possible causes more pressure on counterplay than any other breaker right now
- Water cudgel pon can’t really be checked by anything reliably, and it’s only flaws are weakness to everything faster than it, predictable Tera, and not being able to run HDB so it’s hazards-weak.
- Kyuice beam is excellent at breaking checks if they have to keep coming in on ice attacks, eventually there is a freeze and then the well-crafted team that “counters” kyurem can’t really switch into it anymore.
Basically, in a vacuum these all sound broken, but in the current iteration of OU they’re fairly balanced by each other. Except I’m still hugely in favour of a kingambit ban rn , as I think it’ll open the floodgates.
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