Unpopular opinions

[ant4456]

I'm gonna go ahead and rank the Regions in Pokemon because I'm bored, and by virtue of my opinions generally being controversial, I'm going to just assume it's unpopular. As for a criteria, I'm going to have a few major criterias that applies to each of them:

1. Aesthetics
2. How fun it is to explore
3. Pokemon population/Teambuilding potential
4. In-world lore/culture

Starting with ol' reliable, Kanto. This is generally a lower rated region nowadays mostly because of a fair response to Game Freak shoving it down our throats. But, overall? I think Kanto is a pretty fine region, probably the gold standard gameplay wise, honestly.

The region has a lot of choice for the player, and cool areas. I think the themes of urbanism and technology clashing with a natural environment is pretty neat. Something I never liked is that the cities in Kanto, in particular, feel really weak. I think that is mostly because of it being on the gameplay, but it is probably my biggest gripe: It's just not a diverse region aesthetically. There is cities and there is grasslands. A few water routes, I guess. But on a grayscale Gameboy, this was probably the best JRPG overworld imaginable. Fun to explore, some metroidvania-esque elements, tons of freedom.

As for Pokemon population, I feel that it is mediocre. There are not that many options for most of the game, and the options you do find are often with one or two contrasts that relatively are the same. The difference between Venusaur and Vileplume and Victreebel is not really that large I feel, for instance. A lot of the population are Poison-Types and Water-Types which is meh because you only really want one per team, and a lot of the Water-Types are just mono Water or Water/Ice. Fire Types are actually in surprising supply considering some later regions, but overall I just don't find it to be fun to teambuild in this game. Not the worst, but in the lower half for sure.

Overall: 6/10

Johto...! This is a tough sell. See, I can give a spicy take for all of you. I think Johto is a fun region to play through, and I like GSC not just HGSS. But I also know that it is a tough sell, and I think the hard teambuilding ultimately means this region is fucked on the list.

See, Johto has great aesthetics, in-world culture, and I think it is a fun region to explore with lots of freedom. When I imagine what region I'd want to be in as a trainer, it'd be the forests of Johto. But this isn't that useful when there are so few good Pokemon. Which everyone has already talked about. I feel like whenever I play it I just pick Starter/Eeveelution/Red Gyarados and maybe an Ampharos. Hell, I often don't even go for a full team of six because I don't want to grind, and the region is easy to get through anyways.

I want to like the lo-fi and hip-hop region, but

Overall: 4/10

Here is the MOTHA FUCKIN GOAT. Hoenn is awesome, and I will not tolerate any slander. Amazing aesthetics. So many different biomes while they're all congruous, unlike later regions (looking at you fucking Unova), lots of diverse Pokemon populations, and still maintaining that early gen freedom to explore, albeit more leashed than before.

You could play this game over and over and find new good Pokemon to use. On the first routes alone they give you so many Pokemon that you could pretty easily justify using longterm. The Lotad line, Ralts, Wingull, Seedot, Taillow, etc.

A lot of dual types, lots of monotypes, such a good mix. You can teambuild so many good teams aesthetically, play-wise, and with it not being bad or overlap types. It's great. The culture is kind of lacking in Hoenn as it doesn't have that traditional folklore vibes like in Johto, but instead there is a lot of cool fashion and unique trainer designs. Still fundamentally weaker than some regions, but not to a detriment.

Overall: 9/10

This is where I get actually controversial. This is a bad region, I'm sorry. It's better than Johto but that's kinda it.

Teambuilding in this region is ass. Not just because grinding takes forever, but because most of the Pokemon you can find are ass, or only evolve with trading, or you have to wait 6 badges to evolve Eevee into Glaceon. Or it's time of day events, or you have to backtrack halfway through the region to find anything interesting. No wonder everyone makes the same fucking team, because they throw the few good options at you off the bat, and everything else is mid as fuck. Starter/Shinx/Starly and maybe Budew. Gible later. Last for flavor. That's all you need.

This region fakes its culture with its goofy folklore but it's really not that good, and it doesn't feel congruous to me at all. It doesn't feel like it's actually core to the region, it feels like it's just sometimes sprinkled in to remind you of the Legendary Pokemon. Legends Arceus does it actual justice but I am not counting that, that is Hisui, and would get its own ranking.

Exploration is ok. There isn't a lot of reason to actually do it generally, but around midgame you can get some choices between gym order. Backtracking is a pain in the ass for the first half of the game though, and the amount of useless HMs you need to use is abhorrent.

Overall: 6/10


I covered the first four generations which I feel are somewhat of a quadruple. I will cover the rest of the regions another time, but for now the ranking is:

Hoenn > Kanto = Sinnoh > Johto

 

[Bakugames]

This is where I get actually controversial. This is a bad region, I'm sorry. It's better than Johto but that's kinda it.

honestly the only thing i disagree is this, but because i think sinnoh is worse than johto. johto is ass to play but it looks good as fuck and the culture is good. sinnoh is ass to play and isnt even fun to look at.

the rest i agree. id put hoenn and kanto a bit lower but thats nitpicky

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Mt. Coronet does a ton for Sinnoh's stock. It's a cool centerpiece that's always looming in the background in wild encounters across most of the map. The Spear Pillar is an appropriate story climax. The fact that you have to trek through the foothills back and forth in different places at least a couple of times earlier in the game also keeps it centered and ever-present. It's appropriately foreboding and anchors the whole region around a singular landmark.

And as an ice type aficionado, I've always been extremely grateful to gen 4 for its contributions on that front. Literally every single one of them (Abomasnow, Froslass, Weavile, Glaceon, Mamoswine) is an all-timer in my book.

Unova felt like such a huge step back in map design in comparison. It's an insultingly linear circle with a few spokes and virtually no cohesion. It's like they felt compelled to overcorrect for gen 4's HM bloat.

Kanto and Johto come across a little too basic in terms of scenery, but I at least appreciate that Kanto's second half is pretty nonlinear. Once you've got the Poke Flute and Surf access basically the whole map opens up.

 

[bdt2002]

I'm gonna go ahead and rank the Regions in Pokemon because I'm bored, and by virtue of my opinions generally being controversial, I'm going to just assume it's unpopular. As for a criteria, I'm going to have a few major criterias that applies to each of them:

1. Aesthetics
2. How fun it is to explore
3. Pokemon population/Teambuilding potential
4. In-world lore/culture

View attachment 626254

Starting with ol' reliable, Kanto. This is generally a lower rated region nowadays mostly because of a fair response to Game Freak shoving it down our throats. But, overall? I think Kanto is a pretty fine region, probably the gold standard gameplay wise, honestly.

The region has a lot of choice for the player, and cool areas. I think the themes of urbanism and technology clashing with a natural environment is pretty neat. Something I never liked is that the cities in Kanto, in particular, feel really weak. I think that is mostly because of it being on the gameplay, but it is probably my biggest gripe: It's just not a diverse region aesthetically. There is cities and there is grasslands. A few water routes, I guess. But on a grayscale Gameboy, this was probably the best JRPG overworld imaginable. Fun to explore, some metroidvania-esque elements, tons of freedom.

As for Pokemon population, I feel that it is mediocre. There are not that many options for most of the game, and the options you do find are often with one or two contrasts that relatively are the same. The difference between Venusaur and Vileplume and Victreebel is not really that large I feel, for instance. A lot of the population are Poison-Types and Water-Types which is meh because you only really want one per team, and a lot of the Water-Types are just mono Water or Water/Ice. Fire Types are actually in surprising supply considering some later regions, but overall I just don't find it to be fun to teambuild in this game. Not the worst, but in the lower half for sure.

Overall: 6/10

View attachment 626255

Johto...! This is a tough sell. See, I can give a spicy take for all of you. I think Johto is a fun region to play through, and I like GSC not just HGSS. But I also know that it is a tough sell, and I think the hard teambuilding ultimately means this region is fucked on the list.

See, Johto has great aesthetics, in-world culture, and I think it is a fun region to explore with lots of freedom. When I imagine what region I'd want to be in as a trainer, it'd be the forests of Johto. But this isn't that useful when there are so few good Pokemon. Which everyone has already talked about. I feel like whenever I play it I just pick Starter/Eeveelution/Red Gyarados and maybe an Ampharos. Hell, I often don't even go for a full team of six because I don't want to grind, and the region is easy to get through anyways.

I want to like the lo-fi and hip-hop region, but

Overall: 4/10

View attachment 626257

Here is the MOTHA FUCKIN GOAT. Hoenn is awesome, and I will not tolerate any slander. Amazing aesthetics. So many different biomes while they're all congruous, unlike later regions (looking at you fucking Unova), lots of diverse Pokemon populations, and still maintaining that early gen freedom to explore, albeit more leashed than before.

You could play this game over and over and find new good Pokemon to use. On the first routes alone they give you so many Pokemon that you could pretty easily justify using longterm. The Lotad line, Ralts, Wingull, Seedot, Taillow, etc.

A lot of dual types, lots of monotypes, such a good mix. You can teambuild so many good teams aesthetically, play-wise, and with it not being bad or overlap types. It's great. The culture is kind of lacking in Hoenn as it doesn't have that traditional folklore vibes like in Johto, but instead there is a lot of cool fashion and unique trainer designs. Still fundamentally weaker than some regions, but not to a detriment.

Overall: 9/10

View attachment 626260

This is where I get actually controversial. This is a bad region, I'm sorry. It's better than Johto but that's kinda it.

Teambuilding in this region is ass. Not just because grinding takes forever, but because most of the Pokemon you can find are ass, or only evolve with trading, or you have to wait 6 badges to evolve Eevee into Glaceon. Or it's time of day events, or you have to backtrack halfway through the region to find anything interesting. No wonder everyone makes the same fucking team, because they throw the few good options at you off the bat, and everything else is mid as fuck. Starter/Shinx/Starly and maybe Budew. Gible later. Last for flavor. That's all you need.

This region fakes its culture with its goofy folklore but it's really not that good, and it doesn't feel congruous to me at all. It doesn't feel like it's actually core to the region, it feels like it's just sometimes sprinkled in to remind you of the Legendary Pokemon. Legends Arceus does it actual justice but I am not counting that, that is Hisui, and would get its own ranking.

Exploration is ok. There isn't a lot of reason to actually do it generally, but around midgame you can get some choices between gym order. Backtracking is a pain in the ass for the first half of the game though, and the amount of useless HMs you need to use is abhorrent.

Overall: 6/10


I covered the first four generations which I feel are somewhat of a quadruple. I will cover the rest of the regions another time, but for now the ranking is:

Hoenn > Kanto = Sinnoh > Johto

honestly the only thing i disagree is this, but because i think sinnoh is worse than johto. johto is ass to play but it looks good as fuck and the culture is good. sinnoh is ass to play and isnt even fun to look at.

the rest i agree. id put hoenn and kanto a bit lower but thats nitpicky

Well... I just got done posting something about ranking the postgames in a different thread. Why not take my opinions on step further?

Descriptions from worst to best:

10. Paldea: Not every major AAA video game needs to be some open-world fiasco, and while I have said that I respect Paldea for setting the foundations for future open world regions, that doesn't make Paldea itself better. It's also arguably carried a bit by Area Zero, and at least in Scarlet & Violet, would have greatly benefitted from not being part of such a rushed, controversial game. If I liked modern open-world gaming more, this might be higher to be honest.

9. Galar: This has many of the same issues as Paldea, but is helped by The Crown Tundra being attached to mainland Galar and simply because it's not fully open-world. It doesn't have the excuse of feeling underwhelming because it's the foundation for a new style of region like Kanto, Alola or Paldea were. At least the base game regional PokéDex is... honestly really solid, probably a higher-tier selection on that front.

8. Sinnoh: This ranking may seem really low, but hear me out. You know Smash Bros. fans either really like competitive or they don't care at all and there feels like there's no in between? Smash 4, for the 3DS and Wii U, was Nintendo's attempt of reaching the halfway point between Melee's competitive fanbase and Brawl's casual fanbase, and the end result was this weird mix of both that's only lost more of its appeal over time. Sinnoh reminds me of that- you can see they wanted to reference the duality of Kanto and Johto in the form of Mt. Coronet splitting the region in half, but Kanto and Hoenn both have more main story appeal while Johto has more postgame appeal.

7. I do have to take some points off because, historically and geographically, this is just Sinnoh again instead of something completely original, but I find that Hisui's slightly better regional PokéDex and stronger representation of Japanese history help me enjoy this more than Hisui's present-day counterpart. I also like the action RPG style more than the open-world style of Paldea.

6. Kanto: This region established what a Pokémon region should feel like, which makes sense as it's the first one. It forms a nice duality with Johto like I mentioned earlier, but unlike Sinnoh, the two halves of this whole actually make an effort to feel somewhat unique from one another. Plus, the locations are iconic and the Pokémon are memorable. The fact that we've seen it so much and the fact that you're restricted to Gen 1 Pokémon most of the time holds it back from newer regions, though.

5. Kalos: Now we're getting to the really good stuff- Kalos could have been an S-Tier region had we received a proper third version game, sequel, or DLC that ties up the region's loose ends. Personally I love the idea of dedicated X & Y sequels set in the largely unexplored Southern Kalos, but this unfortunately never happened during Gen 6's active lifespan. The Kalos region we did get, though, has a lot to explore during its main story campaign, helped out with an arguably too easy difficulty curve and the largest regional PokéDex roster to date, clocking in at an impressive 457. Only time will tell if or how Legends: ZA influences this ranking.

4. Johto: My favorite main series region objectively isn't the best, not by a long shot with the issues involving the available Pokémon and the level curves, but given the circumstances that this was their second attempt and that pre-Hoenn regions had to be smaller overall, everything else here is pretty much perfect by 1999 standards. Johto's theming, music, and even the human characters help develop an all-time classic, and the ways it builds off of Kanto were great to see. I just can't rank it higher since those negatives are admittedly pretty big.

3. Unova: When combining the first games and the sequels together, Unova might be in the running for the largest core series region pre-open-world era. The sequels did this region justice, but even the original games took the franchise to (quite literally) new places never seen before. The decision to lock players into only using Gen 5 Pokémon before the postgame in the original games is positive or negative depending on who you ask, but the overall world building here, from the expansive Routes to the human characters, music, and even the Pokémon themselves is almost unmatched... almost.

2. Alola: This was the first region to introduce regional variants, as well as the first region whose main story campaign switched things up from the usual Gym Badge collection. The extra emphasis on story is a bit nice, if annoying with those cutscenes, and the Ultra games are a welcome, yet somewhat recycled challenge for longtime fans. If I'm being completely honest, though, this ranking is mainly as high as it is because Alola reminds me a lot, and I mean a lot of Oblivia, my favorite location in any Pokémon media to date. Seriously, look at Guardian Signs and Sun & Moon side-by-side one day when you're bored. Very fitting, given the Ranger games were made available on the Wii U Virtual Console lineup in 2016. Suspiciously fitting, even...

1. Hoenn: The Unova region is unmatched in world building by all regions... except one. Hoenn has it all- diverse climates, a good size and decent regional PokéDex roster without either of those being too overwhelming, memorable characters, you name it. Despite not having much dedicated postgame and/or side content relative to other regions, the stuff that is here is really strong, ranging from the Battle Frontier to ORAS's Delta Episode to extra features like Contests and Secret Bases. Hoenn is an all-time classic example of quality over quantity, arguably even more than Unova which was my actual second place pick if you're taking nostalgia out of the equation. With nostalgia, though, that just makes Hoenn's top placement even more secured than it already was. I didn't grow up with the originals, but ORAS came out right during the peak of my interest in this franchise when I was 12 years old, and that potential reference to Oblivia with Soaring was the cherry on top.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

This is where I get actually controversial. This is a bad region, I'm sorry. It's better than Johto but that's kinda it.

Teambuilding in this region is ass. Not just because grinding takes forever, but because most of the Pokemon you can find are ass, or only evolve with trading, or you have to wait 6 badges to evolve Eevee into Glaceon. Or it's time of day events, or you have to backtrack halfway through the region to find anything interesting. No wonder everyone makes the same fucking team, because they throw the few good options at you off the bat, and everything else is mid as fuck. Starter/Shinx/Starly and maybe Budew. Gible later. Last for flavor. That's all you need.

I was almost agreeing with you word-for-word until this. Oh well.

Honestly, the point people make about Sinnoh's team building has always been silly. I won't disagree that some evolution methods can be a little obnoxious, even if that might lead to some fun exploration and challenges like getting a Gallade ASAP, but there are ways around them.

If one were to ban the classic Starter/Shinx/Starly core though, you'd still have a LOT of great options in Sinnoh. Especially if you look at it with the proper historical context.

Need a Flying-type? Diamond can get you Murkrow, which is a pretty unique experience. Platinum can get you something even wilder. Gligar. Drifloon is also available in all Sinnoh games somewhat early.

Early-Game picks? Geodude gets Rock Polish very early, which makes it completely different from its earlier appearances in Gens 1-3. Matter of fact, you can get an Onix at the same place. Steelix hasn't really been an easy mon to use in-game until then, but it's possible in Sinnoh. You can also catch Wild Steelix, but that's more of a late-game pick.
No Guard Machop is not only the earliest Machop has been available up to that point, but it's also a very unique experience.

Meditite trades movepool for availability compared to Gallade, but both are also very interesting choices.

Platinum in particular adds a lot of incredible options, like Scyther, Porygon, the Eeveelutions, Rotom, Magnemite, Magmar...

I could go on, but my point has been made. If you can't build a fun team in Sinnoh...

 

[Sixfortyfive]

People also knock gen 4 for "wasting" so much of its regional dex on cross-gen evolutions, and while I'm not going to argue that every one of them was a winner, it's also not gen 4's fault that it had to salvage underwhelming single-stage species from the previous games.

Honchcrow and Mismagius rule (and it's always sucked that they're excluded from Platinum).

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

People also knock gen 4 for "wasting" so much of its regional dex on cross-gen evolutions, and while I'm not going to argue that every one of them was a winner, it's also not gen 4's fault that it had to salvage underwhelming single-stage species from the previous games.

Honchcrow and Mismagius rule (and it's always sucked that they're excluded from Platinum).

It's also not as bad of a problem as it sounds because Sinnoh introduces a lot of strong mons itself.

The classic core of Starter/Starly/Shinx/Gible is usually followed by either more Gen 4 mons like Budew and Buizel, or a cross-gen evo. All of these are Gen 4 reps. Sinnoh does a great job at representing its new mons and also having familiar faces.

One could argue that Oreburgh has too many stale picks like Abra and Geodude, especially if they're planning on playing HGSS soon. However, there are more than enough new options by that point in the game and the old options themselves play drastically differently than their old counterparts.

 

[Turdterra]

People also knock gen 4 for "wasting" so much of its regional dex on cross-gen evolutions, and while I'm not going to argue that every one of them was a winner, it's also not gen 4's fault that it had to salvage underwhelming single-stage species from the previous games.

Honchcrow and Mismagius rule (and it's always sucked that they're excluded from Platinum).

I have no idea why those two had to exluded. One would have been fine to keep in. But both of them being gone makes the Dusk Stone literally unusable unless you trade for one of the Mons.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I have no idea why those two had to exluded. One would have been fine to keep in. But both of them being gone makes the Dusk Stone literally unusable unless you trade for one of the Mons.

They were not only version exclusives, but arguably the most valuable version exclusives in DP.

I'd guess they didn't want to completely take a dump on it.

 

[Yung Dramps]

At some point during the last time I played Legends Arceus I realized that I just don't like the Sinnoh dex that much. The cross-gen evos don't fall under this, they're all kino for the most part. I'm talking the 100% original Pokemon, other than the starters and some legendaries I simply don't care about them man. A bit too much middling fodder for my tastes (Cherrim, the Burmy line, Carnivine, Kricketune, Purugly, etc). Even the fan favorites like Toxicroak, Garchomp and Lucario don't do much for me. A non-negligible part of the reason why I have such high expectations for Z-A is because the Kalos cast is already a noticeable step up in my personal rankings.

 

[ant4456]

For one, I don't care for any of the non-Sinnoh mons mentioned so far. Especially design wise I think most of them are ugly (Magmar ew)

Secondly, I am inherently not going to use any cross gen evo because it takes way too much time.

My teambuilding will always be a mix of "How easy is it to obtain/train?" and "How much do I like the design?"

I find a lot of murky ass Sinnoh's regional dex to be boring, ugly, etc. and on top of that a lot of them do just suck. Even mons mentioned like Buizel are SUPER mediocre.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Vespiquen also rules. Uncommon queen bee Pokemon with 3 signature moves that were all at least decent? That's dope.

The honey trees were also a good thing, actually. Yes, even with the obnoxious required time investment, and even with the terrible encounter rates for stuff like Munchlax. Because of them, not in spite of them, even. Unique, high-effort spawn methods were a necessity to counterbalance how much the addition of online trading utterly trivialized the collection aspect of the game. D/P was the first game in which I even bothered to catch 'em all because the GTS made it so easy to do. So, the devs could get away with making the spawn methods for some Pokemon more obtuse than usual. Daily swarms, Friday-only Drifloon, GBA slot spawns. It was all Good, Actually. You could choose to either engage with it all straight-up and enjoy the variety or just circumvent via GTS the specific ones that were too much of an ask for you. Was the best of both words.

I freakin' love gen 4, man.

 

[Adeleine]

it's also not gen 4's fault that it had to salvage underwhelming single-stage species from the previous games.

My unpopular opinion is that gen4 cross evos are, overall, a net negative.

• As far as battling, i think they're a mixed bag. They're often better, sure, but often not in ways that are fun.

(List of cross-evo Pokemon: Magnezone, Lickilicky, Rhyperior, Happiny, Tangrowth, Mime Jr., Electivire, Magmortar, Leafeon, Glaceon, Porygon-Z, Munchlax, Togekiss, Bonsly, Ambipom, Yanmega, Honchkrow, Mismagius, Gliscor, Weavile, Mantyke, Gallade, Probopass, Budew, Dusknoir, Chingling, Froslass)

1. Some of them just aren't better.

Notable offenders: Leafeon, Glaceon, and the 7 baby Pokemon.

Notable successes: Froslass, Yanmega, Lickilicky.

2. Many original guys are / would be fine in-game, reducing the need.

Notable offenders: Rhyperior, Magnezone, Porygon-Z.

Notable successes: Ambipom, Froslass, Yanmega.

3. Evolution methods made them annoying to utilize. (ant sniped me here!)

This is surprisingly applicable to like every Pokemon here. Trade evolutions are the most prominent reason, but evolutionary stones can be debatably a pain depending on the specific game and Pokemon context. For those requiring a certain move, they often get it unnecessarily late–like level 32 for Aipom and the terrible Double Hit, 33 for Yanma and Ancient Power, and originally level 33 for Tangela and Ancient Power (24 now). Even the location-based ones have fiascos. "Vast Poni Canyon" ring a bell?

Notable offenders: Yes

4. Competitive buffs were often unfun.

Moving past the idea that not all Pokemon can or should be "competitively viable" (meaning of which varies from person to person), and having some worse ones is valuable for reducing power creep and role creep, a lot of cross-evos are boring or annoying competitively. Some have bothersome abilities (though do remember Tangrowth's Regenerator was Gen V), some are noob traps, and some are just terrible.

Notable offenders: Togekiss, Ambipom, Probopass.

Notable successes: Honchkrow, Mismagius, Yanmega.

• Design and concept wise, I think the cross-evos are generally downgrades, with exceptions. Their concepts are often shallower than the original concepts and unfaithful to them, or, swinging to the other extreme, painfully uninventive.

1. Humanization in design

This is something later generations get solid flak for, but Gen 4 not so much. I think Gen 4 is more guilty here than later generations, actually. While a Pokemon like Meowscarada is obviously much more human-like than Torterra, Meowscarada does use that likeness for personality and flair that would be harder to justify on a more animalistic Pokemon. Some middle-generation Pokemon face the worst of both worlds: they are decidedly more human-like than their priors, but not in a way used to characterize the Pokemon like Meowscarada, simultaneously lacking that and any animalistic charm or wonder.

Notable offenders: Electivire, Probopass, Ambipom

(There's a separate class of more subtly humanized Pokemon: e.g. Mismagius's hat, Honchkrow's exaggerated hat, Rhyperior's armor.)

Notable exceptions: There are plenty of cross-gen that maintain their level of humanness, which is good I suppose, but I can't think of any that meaningfully decrease it, so I'll leave this blank.

2. The old Pokemon's concept but, just, again

Notable offenders: Lickilicky, Tangrowth, Leafeon, Glaceon (but not Sylveon!)

Notable exceptions: Gallade, Porygon-Z, Magnezone

3. Shallowness / subtlety

To illustrate my critique by example, I will now describe the concepts behind two Pokemon to the best of my ability.

Murkrow is an odd character. It obsesses over shiny things and can be a bit of a nuisance, as real birds sometimes are. But it causes problems a bit more on purpose than that. It's a mischievous scamp, but also vaguely sinister. If you ever see it, it will try to get you lost in the mountains. Superstitious people think it's a sign of bad luck, which makes some sense from its shady appearance and behavior.

Honchkrow acts all big, but it makes its disposable Murkrow henchmen do the dirty work, and it is really mean if they fail. In other words, it's a stereotypical villainous boss. Also it's a mafia boss, but it doesn't do much mafia-specific. It has goons, but so do all villainous bosses. I guess it's only active at night, which is kind of like organized crime wanting to remain beneath notice, but maybe that's just inherited from Murkrow?

Maybe you think being a mafia boss is cooler than what Murkrow has going on. Sure, that's your prerogative. But Murkrow does have a richer, more cohesive concept that naturally flows into itself, while Honchkrow is conceptually more clumsy.

Notable offenders: Honchkrow, Rhyperior, Dusknoir

Notable successes: Froslass, Yanmega, Mismagius

 

[Ironmage]

1. Humanization in design

This is something later generations get solid flak for, but Gen 4 not so much. I think Gen 4 is more guilty here than later generations, actually. While a Pokemon like Meowscarada is obviously much more human-like than Torterra, Meowscarada does use that likeness for personality and flair that would be harder to justify on a more animalistic Pokemon. Some middle-generation Pokemon face the worst of both worlds: they are decidedly more human-like than their priors, but not in a way used to characterize the Pokemon like Meowscarada, simultaneously lacking that and any animalistic charm or wonder.

Notable offenders: Electivire, Probopass, Ambipom

I do have to stand up for Probopass here. It gets the hat/hairpiece and eyes because those are features that Moai originally had (which have mostly eroded off). So the mon gets those features as part of its line already being based on a representation of a human. Sure, the mustache is new, but that's more than made up for with the complete removal of limbs.

 

[pika pal]

So Sinnoh has 107 Pokemon of its own, 27 being related to Prior Gen mons, compared to Johto (its closest comparison in terms of thematics for the region and preceding Dex size) being 16/100. I have excluded the Eeveelutions of both gens since Eevee's evolution gimmick makes it a common choice for showing off new Evo mechanics and revisiting for new typed members.

Where Johto loses me is how many of those slots are just the Baby mons. Scizor, Kingdra, Slowking are all good as extensions of the pre-existing families, but the Babies are awful, not even implemented interestingly like a means to give earlier access to mid/late game strength mons compared to, say, Budew in Gen 4 letting you get Roselia started earlier and then Roserade to carry into End Game. While Sinnoh has more previous Gen ties, a lot more of them are improving on or outright completing insufficient Mons, so there was some kind of intent behind revisiting them beyond PADDING OUT the dex as the Babies in both games feel like at times. I won't say they're all winners but I definitely think it's a much worse approach in Gen 2 than Gen 4.

3. Shallowness / subtlety

To illustrate my critique by example, I will now describe the concepts behind two Pokemon to the best of my ability.

Murkrow is an odd character. It obsesses over shiny things and can be a bit of a nuisance, as real birds sometimes are. But it causes problems a bit more on purpose than that. It's a mischievous scamp, but also vaguely sinister. If you ever see it, it will try to get you lost in the mountains. Superstitious people think it's a sign of bad luck, which makes some sense from its shady appearance and behavior.

Honchkrow acts all big, but it makes its disposable Murkrow henchmen do the dirty work, and it is really mean if they fail. In other words, it's a stereotypical villainous boss. Also it's a mafia boss, but it doesn't do much mafia-specific. It has goons, but so do all villainous bosses. I guess it's only active at night, which is kind of like organized crime wanting to remain beneath notice, but maybe that's just inherited from Murkrow?

Maybe you think being a mafia boss is cooler than what Murkrow has going on. Sure, that's your prerogative. But Murkrow does have a richer, more cohesive concept that naturally flows into itself, while Honchkrow is conceptually more clumsy.

Counter Argument: Murkrow's concept throws a bunch of aspects of Crows together without any real integration, where Honchkrow is a different concept simply realized using the Crow motif. By this metric I disagree vehemently with the idea that Murkrow has a richer or more cohesive concept.

Murkrow has a Witch's Hat designed into its head, yet no Dex entries nor its natural movepool reflect a penchant for magic or supernatural abilities, it's simply there because Witches and Crows are linked images/symbology. The name is generic (Murk/Dark + Crow, or "Murder" as in a group despite no allusion to pack life in Murkrow's Dex Entries) and the only thing it has going for it is a level of intelligence in trying to steal shiny objects and mislead followers, which is characteristic of decently-intelligent Corvids but isn't really stand out in the Pokemon World for animal intelligence. Very little is made of Murkrow that is particular to Crows, which have demonstrated intelligence above typical birds like utilizing tools or problem solving with the environment (some have been observed dropping nuts into traffic crosswalks so cars will run over and break the shells, but also stop for traffic lights so they can retrieve them).

Honchkrow by comparison combines the crow traits more harmoniously with the Mafia angle. As a boss of a group of Murkrow who bring it stuff, it's the head of a Crime Family obviously, and its name more directly reflects its concept ("Don" Karasu or "Honchkrow" as in "Honcho", the boss). What is a group of crows often dubbed? A "Murder" of crows, which makes for a fun wordplay on the conduct of a pissed off Honchkrow and what it does to those who double cross it or come up short (Mafia punishments are one of the most famous images of the compared to a random Villain/Criminal Gang). Back to Murkrow's random Witch motif, Honchkrow's white rimmed eyes and prominent white chest feathers evoke the image of a Wizard's beard, giving the Murkrow a role as its familiars or a Coven to actually complete the Magician Angle Murkrow started but did nothing with, even with Honchkrow's Physical lean. Its movepool also reflects the "Criminal/Fighting Dirty" idea with naturally learning Pursuit, Nasty Plot, and later Foul Play/Sucker Punch (previously inherited as Murkrow-exclusive level up or Tutor).

Also something I'd note is a lot of Pokemon teams operate like organized crime, the main thing the Mafia is defined as, dating as far back as Giovanni in Team Rocket deriving from the Yakuza or Team Galactic operating out of a known building in Veilstone next to a Gambling facility much the same way. A boss bringing minions together for larger aspirations is what distinguishes them from random thugs as is the case with Murkrow just being random tricksters if not working under a Honchkrow boss.

Another thing that distinguishes an organized Criminal Organization from a plain old Villain group is the idea that Crime Families are known but not really straightforward to deal with more through their methods vs being under the radar or too strong to challenge. Honchkrow operating at night could stem from its Murkrow minions are more adept there vs their targets but aren't so overwhelming that they could just take whatever whenever. It's a trait inherited from Murkrow being Nocturnal but now put to use instead of simply being.

Honchkrow's actually one of the few Cross Gen Evos to add a new motif or idea to the line instead of "the old thing but more" as criticized for many others (Lickilicky, Tangrowth), which I think is realized rather sufficiently in part because Murkrow's original concept was barely above the "animal but with a funny extra trait" approach but springboarded off of into the new Boss look.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

So let me get this straight...

Interesting, viable new gen early-game mons that are so fun and splashable, they've become synonymous with the region itself.

"Don't want them, too popular and overrated."

Fresh takes on old mons from movepool upgrades to availability

"Don't want them, nobody got time for old mons"

Cross-Gen evos

"Too much work"

No wonder y'all are only getting the middling dex fodder...

I could go on, but my point has been made. If you can't build a fun team in Sinnoh...

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Where Johto loses me is how many of those slots are just the Baby mons.

What even was the point of this, anyway? Just to have some cute stuff to fill up the dex?

Whether it's the map or the dex, Johto can only stand on the merit of basically being an expansion to Kanto. It's got such little substance of its own to offer.

 

[pika pal]

What even was the point of this, anyway? Just to have some cute stuff to fill up the dex?

Whether it's the map or the dex, Johto can only stand on the merit of basically being an expansion to Kanto. It's got such little substance of its own to offer.

I think the idea was to show off the breeding mechanic, but it misses the point that if you have the Mon to breed them down, you would just use the parent in-game, since no one is using Egg Moves for casual runs vs PVP. Gen 4 at least gives Riolu without Lucario immediately accessible and stuff like Gen 5 makes the Babies early game wild encounters like I mentioned.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

What even was the point of this, anyway? Just to have some cute stuff to fill up the dex?

Merch and flexing the breeding mechanics.

Whether it's the map or the dex, Johto can only stand on the merit of basically being an expansion to Kanto. It's got such little substance of its own to offer.

I actually disagree with this.

Johto on its own is a very solid region. If they hadn't done that stupid split path that broke the level curve, it'd be more obvious. But the region itself is pretty good.

It speaks volumes that for all the hype it gets, Kanto is a barren, empty husk in the Johto games.

The cardinal sin of the Johto games is team building. I've learned it the hard way running tests for GSC's IGTL. Once you pick a Normal and a Water-type, you're in no man's land. There's so much overlap.

Not to mention the boneheaded lack of Johto reps in their own damn games. Game Freak couldn't have stuck Murkrow and Houndour *anywhere* in Johto despite the day/night cycle? Really?

 

[Sixfortyfive]

It speaks volumes that for all the hype it gets, Kanto is a barren, empty husk in the Johto games.

Just one of those things where people loved the idea of it and glossed over the execution.

I admit I sometimes have a hard time separating criticism of Johto from criticism of GSC.

 

[Heatranator]

But what if, and hear me out, both kanto and johto are mid?

Okay, but hear me out. I've played games that have included all regions, which in this case is FRLG, Yellow, LGPE and HGSS for kanto and johto, and both are not really spectacular, I don't think any pokemon region is spectacular. Even Hoenn, which is the region I grew up with cause my first game was ORAS, is only alright. But Kanto and Johto especially are not good, the others are at least alright.
Kanto sadly falls victim to the fact that unless you know the game, i.e. you have played the games beforehand, you will not know where to go, you just kinda have to guess. Despite the fact that I knew what route you kinda have to go, the game doesn't even have a recommended route of 'you should go here, but you could also go here', its entirely in the players hand. Now, this may not seem bad, but the zero guidance or story means that newer players don't know where to go. Everything else about it is alright, the map layout is cool, but again, you are not guided upon a path and given the option of something else.
Johto on the other hand, is not really good of a region. Sure, there are a few cool things, such as it looping around on itself, but at the end of the day, you are going back and forth between areas and they don't really feel impactful or necessary. You have to get medicine for the ampharos by going to cianwood town (the town where chuck is, if I'm wrong on the name) to go back to the same town by flying. Backtracking should be fun, but it isn't because you get to surf, something which isn't really good in pokemon games in general because they refuse to make interesting water obstacles outside of hoenn, which even then isn't too interesting outside a few routes (the whirlpools are so small they barely count), and thus make the treck there boring. You do get fly in the town, but again, why not just have you fight jasmine and then fight chuck? That seems a lot easier. And then the team rocket stuff happens and you have to go to goldenrod, completely breaking the immersion of the game by going to a previous location unorganically. And then once that's done, you go about your business. Don't even get me started on the level curve, that's the worst part and shows how split paths have to be handled carefully.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Kanto sadly falls victim to the fact that unless you know the game, i.e. you have played the games beforehand, you will not know where to go, you just kinda have to guess.

I think there are a lot of different ways that you can argue that Kanto is lacking compared to what came after it (it's pretty basic), but this isn't one of them. And the older I get, the more I'm inclined to think that games of this style could use less directional guidance, not more.

Pokemon has always been a game for barely-literate children, and those of the late '90s could still brute force their way through it. You don't need a whole lot of direction. Routes are small, secret areas are few and far between, there aren't that many key items needed for map progression, and those that exist have only so many places where they could be found. The most obtuse one is probably the Flash HM, and that's something that actually isn't technically required and at least some players in RBY don't even like to use anyway because of the lack of a move deleter in gen 1.

Like I remember just scrolling through the list of all of the areas on the Town Map in RBY, and the order in which they are listed in the map is like ~95% matched to the order in which you're expected to traverse them over the course of the quest. Didn't take a lot of intuition or experimentation.

 

[Hugin]

I love that, for all the hate it gets, no one is debating Hoenn. Because yeah, it's just good. The first 5 gyms are a legitimately fun pathfinding experience, and post-surf the game is all about letting you decide how much or how little you want to explore the water routes. There's issues, sure, but given the generation and tech available, Hoenn was a gold standard region design. And the mons are similar. Sure there's issues(all the non-Geodude/Marshtomp grounds are available AFTER Wattson), but it had interesting designs and refreshing takes on the standard concepts.

Anyways Mt Coronet is excellent and I wish the rest of Sinnoh was anywhere near that level.

 

[Turdterra]

Vespiquen also rules. Uncommon queen bee Pokemon with 3 signature moves that were all at least decent? That's dope.

The honey trees were also a good thing, actually. Yes, even with the obnoxious required time investment, and even with the terrible encounter rates for stuff like Munchlax. Because of them, not in spite of them, even. Unique, high-effort spawn methods were a necessity to counterbalance how much the addition of online trading utterly trivialized the collection aspect of the game. D/P was the first game in which I even bothered to catch 'em all because the GTS made it so easy to do. So, the devs could get away with making the spawn methods for some Pokemon more obtuse than usual. Daily swarms, Friday-only Drifloon, GBA slot spawns. It was all Good, Actually. You could choose to either engage with it all straight-up and enjoy the variety or just circumvent via GTS the specific ones that were too much of an ask for you. Was the best of both words.

I freakin' love gen 4, man.

Vespiquen is honestly good. I've been using it in an LP (was also fortunate enough to get Munchlax too). Munchlax soloing Fantina is incredibly funny to me.

 

[Bakugames]

idk my opinion on sinnoh is simpler: its not that fun

the choices of sinnoh arent fun. i dont like most of these designs and if im replaying a pokemon game id like to run a bit of variety otherwise whats the point. croagunk toxicroak carnivine brozong gastrodon vespiqueen is basically all i run cuz everything else is so mid. im not even talking abt trade stuff cuz i play on emulator i can just hack those yknow

the routes arent fun. theyre samey and uninspired and the color pallete of sinnoh feels off to me. the hms make travelling a chore.

yeah gen 4 battles slow etc. i run on 2x speed who cares. however the gym leaders dont give me any joy other than fantina and sometimes crasher wake. they feel forgettable and bland. their designs arent nearly as good as gen 3s for sure.

the plot is a plot. i get what they were going for but i find it falling. the main thing it has going on is shock bc blowing up a lake and the giratina summon are pretty cool jumps. i just dont find galactic that interesting or well explored, same with cynthia and cyrus.

idk. its a very "i can just play another pokemon game" game