Imagine if people looked beyond moon's usual sets and saw that it had a lot more depth then people think. Wouldn't that be funny if somebody has been saying that for a long time.
HA HA HA
HA HA HA
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
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I do appreciate you posting replays, but I find most of these to be the result of misplays. This is not be calling out these players as frauds or anything, they’re great players I faced once or a couple times.
Replay: 1
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2102089389?p2
(Good replay. Though I’m not sure why they clicked Ruination when EQ looked free here. It shows Moon doing its job in chipping Skarmory for Kingambit to sweep, I’ll give you a point.)
Replays: 2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2102063470
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2102107252
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2115332745
(Heileone had multiple responses to Moon such as Barb Clef, Corv, and Weavile. The issue for Heileone was actually the Raging Bolt. Their only answer was to Trick Barb onto it and hope to stall it out with Gliscor + Skeledirge, as shown in the first replay, thus Clef was unable to be around for Roaring Moon. In the first replay, they should’ve clicked BB with Corv instead of press which would’ve put Moon in range of Weavile Ice Shard after Helmet chip. Even if Moon switches out, you’ve exhausted its Booster, becoming easier to check defensively. The second replay, Roaring Moon doesn’t even come out. Third replay, Heileone for some reason lets go of the Barb instead of swapping to Corv. Ironically these replays moreso showcase why Raging Bolt is broken rather than Moon, more on that in a future post.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2114949942
(There were two things your opponent could’ve done. They could’ve Tera’d their Zama, which wouldn’t be bad here since it’s still a Zama, plus you prevent Roaring Moon from getting a single kill. Secondly, they didn’t realize it which in all fairness, most players wouldn’t, but after Treads clicked Ice Spinner, it was now in range of Rillaboom Grassy Glide, especially if Rilla terastilizes.
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Roaring Moon in Grassy Terrain: 125-147 (35.6 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Even if Moon was swapped out, the only two that could swap in are R-Bolt and Zama who lose their Proto boosts which imo is a fair trade.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2117511076
(Trick Room is not a standard playstyle like HO, BO, or Balance, so its difficult to gauge a mon’s viability or brokeness here.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2082355053?p2
(This whole team gets 6-0d by Moon. Even if it doesn’t outright sweep, it pretty much always getting a kill, but they could’ve lead into Primarina which could get some chip damage on Moon to put it in range of Rilla Grassy Glide. Plus Primarina matches up well with everything here minus Raging Bolt.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2114980194
(Your opponent made a weird choice to swap into Dnite after Darkrai is sacked when they have a full health Tusk that could’ve either Knocked, Spinned, or Headlong Rush’d for chip in case you decided to preserve Raging Bolt.)
I have a couple more replays. Two from me and two from SPL.
Me
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2091149608
(Roaring Moon gets an opportunity to setup on my Glowking. Since Glowking had done its job, I was fine clicking Sludge and sacking it. I switched to Krookodile (yes I used Krookodile) for the Intimidate and swapped to Corv since I knew it could live 2 Knocks from Moon. If you wanna say “lol he used Krookodile” as an argument, just imagine it as a Lando for a second. Same idea, but in a different body)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2090613118?p2
(Clef cripples the Moon with Sticky Barb. Not much else said)
SPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-755472
(JJ09LIE’s Moon gets off a DD, but gets stopped by the Scale Shot Dnite. Plus Xrn had a Raging Bolt in case it Terastilized. Xrn’s own Moon wins after the team is heavily crippled with only Treads and Val remaining which it outspeeds and OHKOs)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-754201
(S1nn0hC0nfirm3d had both Lando and Weavile, so pdt was not sweeping this with Moon)
I do find there to be issues in the metagame, but as I alluded to earlier, Moon isn’t one of them imo. The fact Taunt is becoming more common than Earthquake as evident by the usage statistics, makes Gambit a more reliable Moon check.
I dont neccessarily agree that Moon needs to be banned but this replay here isn't really telling of anything. pdt was already in a heavy disadvantagous position and the opponent still had 6 mons to work with, with 5- being healthy. You could beat any mon with resources like that. The argument never was that Moon can 6-0 teams on preview like Volc does but his progress making tools is a little too much.(which I honestly don't mind) with knock already being a brainless move now being tied to a huge and fast attacker + taunt shutting down fatter teams. I do agree though that the combi of Rocky Helmet mons like lando or in your case Krok + another defensive mon can force chip on moon and is thus easier to deal with.
On that note, rocky helmet is such a beautiful item. Not only does it keep Moon in check but forcing chip on U-turners and HDB spam is much needed in this Meta.
honestly these posts take too much time to write im thinking whether its even worth the time since these suspect tests arent even democratic anyways and the one they will decide to suspect test is wellspring... cos oh the pro scene thinks its broken, like i said before in that case we can just let tiering be decided by the pro scene cos in that case i just find the rest of us getting reqs and voting in that case to be a clown fiesta and pointless maybe i wont partake in anymore of these suspects.
so im saying moon is way too strong for ou because...
- as finchinator already said, its too good at forcing progress
- find me another pokemon with high atk stat, stab knock off and taunt, none, this is the best fat team destroyer pokemon out there
- cos it was taking too much time i didnt bother to include more replays of me beating down other ho teams, i just put out the ones of moon decimating fatter teams cos thats what its best at
i also already said...
- moon is only suitable for ho
- ho games there will be some games 1 mon will be contributing much... obviously dont expect moon to contribute every single game
- most teams even ho have a kingambit answer even mine does... just because its checked by kingambit doesnt mean its not broken... hello see above what moon offers just cos its checked by gambit doesnt mean its not broken
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2101860894
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2117203355
heres 2 more replays of moon doing something vs opposing ho
btw if certain mons are so scary they cause ppl to be shook and misplay u already know whether its broken or not... tbh nothing else needs to be said
btw also whoever said moon has a hard time vs landot teams, pack a landot killer ive never had much problems w landot teams, also yes raging bolt is also broken they should just ban that too but oh wait were suspecting ogerpon!
This team and playstyle exemplify precisely why easy tempo gain and punishing free turns have sowed the seeds for discontent in this generation.
Each of these mons is independently strong; now you add the *free* stat raises on the switch in - the opponent can't afford to use passive moves like defog or recover otherwise they find themselves in a position about to get swept because of the instant tempo advantage and setup opportunity.
This is amplified by the free turn brought about by tera which either enables you to blast past a would be check for the mon or it's teammates or create a further turn of setup - we have already banned an entire mechanic (yes, I will keep bringing this up) because it had the possibility of generating 1 or 2 free turns...It's just such hypocrisy to keep one mechanic and not the other simply because it's novel or the "gen's identity". For those saying defensive tera is needed to prevent sweeps like these, why aren't you also saying keep Volcorona in the tier for its ability to check Kyurem/ fairies etc? The offensive potential is too overwhelming. It's not about tera or BE on individual mons, but rather the gameplay experience it creates (will raging bolt tera fairy on my drag's draco? Should I BP this RM with my corv or BB to 2KO giving it a free setup on the gamble that it burns a tera?). It just creates far too many uncompetitive states of play.
kingambit also frequently runs air balloon to consistently switch in on and force out kyurem, so not even EQ roaring moon variants are safe against kingambit 25% of the time, according to pikalytics usage stats. but as you alluded, the main problem with roaring moon is that it just has a hard time dealing with all of its checks. you could adjust your RM to give it a better matchup into some of its checks (teching taunt for gliscor, metal birds, etc.) but in doing so you could jeopardize your matchup into other similarly important matchups (notably the previously mentioned kingambit as well as raging bolt). it's also extremely reliant on tera thanks to its weakness-laden typing and it is highly susceptible to priority moves because of how frail it is. it's unbelievable to me that i'm seeing people compare this pokemon to the nigh unwallable ogerpon-W, whose only shared weakness with roaring moon is its susceptibility to priority moves. even then i'd argue ogerpon fares better against OU's common priority users, particularly kingambit, than RM could ever hope to be
lol tbh i agree with you... power creep is too high this gen ya for sure... but honestly i dig playing fast paced 10-15 turn games of me and the other guy taking turns to hack at each other till 1 guy wins its not bad i hate long drawn out games anyways pce out chat i need to work a 12 hour shift tmr fuck me x-x
How? Roaring Moon has base 105 HP and 71 defense while Wellspring has base 80 HP and 84 defense. Even with 13 higher base defense, it's down a whole base 25 HP. That makes Moon more naturally bulky on the defensive side despite its low defense. Roaring Moon has a higher base Sp. Def. as well. It's actually bulkier than Waterpon in general.
Furthermore, Moon naturally resists Sucker Punch. Wellspring doesn't. Moon naturally resists Sucker Punch, Grassy Glide, Shadow Sneak, Aqua Jet, and Thunderclap. Wellspring only has the Aqua Jet immunity. If it Teras, if can resists Bullet Punch and Ice Shard. But Moon can also change its Tera to something like Steel to resist those things, and while it prefers to run Flying, RM isn't redistricted to a single Tera type. Roaring Moon just naturally resists far more priority moves with better overall bulk.
If you are saying this because of Encore, it's a 50/50. If Gambit is switching into revenge, which is the context here since we are talking about priority weakness, Kowtow Cleave has a high a chance to one shot it if it hasn't used a move before. Wellspring can 1 shot it with Cudgel if it SD'd prior. But it has to guess that Gambit won't Sucker Punch. If Gambit Teras into something that resists the Cudgel, Wellspring loses to a Gambit that just Kowtow Cleaves. Moon is more likely to live the Sucker Punch in the first place.
HP is much less valuable than Defense, it works out to nearly identical physical bulk. Please do a very easy defensiveness calculation (HP×Defense/Special Defense) or do a damage calc before stating bulk comparisons as fact.
Wellspring Physical Bulk: 61404
Roaring Moon Physical Bulk: 62478
252+ Atk Black Glasses Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 180-213 (59.8 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Roaring Moon: 205-243 (58.4 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Roaring Moon: 205-243 (58.4 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Wellspring also has Encore to punish thunderclap and sucker punch hard, while shadow sneak is nearly completely irrelevant. Roaring Moon is often forced to tera and is almost always tera fly.
Same can be said for moon, and basically nobody is running dragon/grass/water gambit rn
Roaring Moon still has the higher number here, making it less vulnerable to physical priority according to stats. No one should be saying Waterpon is less vulnerable to priority based on stats, typing, or anything else.
I forgot to say if it was Tera Dark. But Wellspring also doesn't 1HKO if it didn't already SD. Anyways, the Calcs are also flawed on your end because you seem to be using a Gambit that isn't fully invested in attack or factoring in KOs. It assumes a better case scenario for Wellspring.
Black Glasses Gambit could also do 72.7 - 85.7% with Kowtow Cleave and 59.8 - 70.7%.
Life Orb does 78 - 92.3% for KC and 64.7 - 76.4% for SP.
This is important because Gambit often would come in down 1 or more mons. That's what an RK is. 1 KO on your team plus Black Glasses is roughly equivalent to Life Orb. And 2 KOs would be higher. If there is any chip on Wellspring, particularly if it SD'd, it would have a pretty good chance to 1 shot with Kowtow.
Before we talk about Encore, I must point out that the other reason why you don't see this as much against Waterpon is because Wellspring's significantly lower speed tier makes it far more reasonable to be revenge killed without priority. You can't do this easily against Moon with its speed tier and ease of boosting speed further. So folks have no choice but to use priority like Gambit to try and RK it after chip to avoid the sweep, even if they might otherwise prefer to use other means and save Gambit for the end game. This is not a favor point for Wellspring, but in fact a result of its balanced speed tier. Moon's speed tier isn't balanced given how easily it can boost it. This requires priority to deal with.
First of all, I'm just covering all the basis. If you want to be that picky about the prevalence of specific priority moves, the 4 most common priority mons are Gambit, Rillaboom, D-nite, and Bolt. Moon resists 3/4 and Wellspring resists none. Wellspring even becomes weak to two of those after Tera. Even if you say Moon is usually Tera Flying, it isn't always the way Wellspring is locked into Tera Water and becomes outright weak to two of those. Moon has room to run less predictable Teras the way it did before its first ban. Even if it is Tera Flying, that still gives it a resistance to Grassy Glide and neutral defenses against the other 3 most common 4 priorities with a superior speed tier.
Second, I already addressed the Encore point in my last comment in regards to Sucker Punch. It's a 50/50. IF Ogerpon actually SD'd before, it can 1 shot. I was a bit unclear about the Calcs, but the review doesn't change that much. Depending on KOs, chip, and Teras, Gambit can 1 shot or two shot with possible defensive counterplay. If Wellspring hasn't Sword Danced, Gambit can still Kowtow and threaten to win the exchange. Or just outright win with any chip. For some reason, the chip argument only seems to get applied to Moon and not the hazard vulnerable Wellspring.
Third, the Thunderclap point requires Moon to be Tera Flying and forced into it. If not, Moon has a higher natural special bulk and an Electric type resistance. A smart player wouldn't just mindlessly Tera Flying if they see Bolt in the back. There seems to be this strange duality where some people assume suboptimal play or losing position from the Roaring Moon player as a form of balance, yet also don't seem to mind that a single mistake usually makes you screwed against this mon. It becomes a mindset of just not losing to it positionally, despite the fact that Moon is also one of the best progress makers in the tier.
Waterpon can encore Thunderclap. But Bolt needs to have used Calm Mind or Thunderclap before Wellspring comes in for that to work. Otherwise, Bolt can just straight up 1 shot Tera Water Wellspring with Thunderbolt. And even non-Tera Waterpon dies to BE variants. Wellspring cannot 1 hit Bolt unless it is both SD and Play Rough. If it is both those things, it probably isn't carrying Encore. It won't have room to. Saying just Encore is a huge oversimplification.
Finally, I am not arguing that Waterpon is or isn't problematic. Just that it isn't actually less vulnerable or better against priority than Roaring Moon. In fact, it is the opposite. And while Moon's speed tier demands priority to deal with it far more than Wellspring does, that isn't the same thing as a greater vulnerability.
Wait til you see that Custap has been used.
It really doesn’t. Tera Ghost might occasionally see use for Body Press mons, but the issue with Tera Ghost and also Steel is it makes Moon vulnerable to more match ups just to win a few. Tera Steel for example loses to the common Ground types of the tier and Zama.
Except it’s not difficult to force Moon in a position to Tera. Stuff like Lando, Tusk, Ting-Lu, Skarm, Zama, and Gliscor are very good at doing that. If they don’t Tera in front of them, Moon eats big chip or even loses the 1v1 outright.
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While I like your take, let’s keep in mind that balance and stall are also consistently very good this gen. You can see both structures doing very well at high ladder and Finch won in SPL with a balance team.
Except if you position well enough, moon can also win the 1v1. I'm right now using a metaboom HO team and moon is by far the star mon on it (trying out a breaking swipe set but I haven't clicked it yet). Zama needs to tera as well in order to wall it as if it gets to +1, zama is going to be taking 70% min from it, so with just stealth rocks and 2 layers of spikes (though you would want to get to 3 layers instead of 2), it can be potentially ohko'd. Gliscor is just set up fodder, all it can do is toxic (taunt variants destroy it) and then try to stall it out. The moon player just dd's up to +3 and ko's gliscor. Skarm is one that is difficult, but on a team with many physical attackers, knocking off the rocky helmet is great. In fact, skarm has to keep itself healthy because +1 knock deal 58% min. Ting lu can take any moon hit, but it is crippled by knock for the rest of the game since losing lefties recovery is big for it (red card variants don't care as much though). Tusk is just acro food. +1 acro cleanly OHKO's and it has to tera, while still taking 50% even on a resisted acro. Lando-T is probs the best one that can take it on, but defensive lando still takes 44% min from a knock (these calcs are all assuming it gets to +1 but due to intimidate, you get to neutral) and has to lose its rocky helmet, which is big since it can no longer passively switch into physical mons to get chip.
My main issue with moon is that nothing can really check or counter it. Only really clefable can do that as everything else is either crippled by knock or can be outplayed with just a bit of chip.
Ate u recommending sd cudgel trailblaze playrough/knock off, cos its true ogerpon is harder to wall it has insane matchup into fatter teams with standard smogon set but I think the smatchup vs offensive teams is not good w that set, moon is so much better to me cos of the speed stab knock taunt and tera fly (it hits like a truck and im willing to tera early sometimes to wallbreak) it rly doesn't matter if ppl know its coming they still can't beat it sometimes that's how u know mon = strong
Just seems to me ogerpon if u run standard smogon set u have good matchup vs fat but bad vs offense, trailblaze set u have decent mu vs offense but then ur mu vs fat becomes bad... at least roaring moon can contribute something for me regardless of enemy team archetype I showed all 2 more replays vs ho
And no roaring moon resist both sucker and thunderclap if u need to rk gambit or bolt in a pinch its more useful to have than ogerpon
honestly it says more about Earthquake that in a meta with Air Balloon and Grassy Terrain, it's still one of the most reliable clicks in the format
Low ladder is the wild west of Pokemon. I've seen more gimmicks, and diversity in low ladder than I have ever seen at the points when I've reached mid or high ladder. I got cooked by a fucking Maranga Berry Garganacl. Can you honestly say what Maranga Berry does without looking it up, or did you even know it existed? Cause I sure didn't! I've seen Guard Dog Adrenaline Orb Okidogi. I've seen like 5 Weakness Policy Sticky Webs. Teams packing multiple Eject Packs and Red Cards. Just weird niche strategies that made me feel like I was getting farmed for Youtube videos. Think I'm just going to spam Roaring Moon from now on.
Don't leak my strats like this online this is secret fucking tech buddy
First of all, if Moon Tera'd then it probably set up an extra DD. And if you are coming in to check Moon, that's also a turn it could maybe take advantage of the predicted switch and DD. So you are looking at a lot of +1, +1 and BE attack, and maybe even +2 kinds of scenarios. The raw power is potentially going to be an issue.
At +2, Acrobatics, Roaring Moon will have a 50% chance to 1HKO defensive Great Tusk at about 91.7 - 108.2% damage. Or 69.1 - 81.5% at +1 and BE attack. That's defensive Great Tusk and no Tera Flying. Most people run offensive Tusk. The same +1 Acrobatics with BE attack and without Tera can do 89.4 - 105.5% to offensive Bulk Up Great Tusk. Tera Flying ensures a 1HKO even without chip, but not having it doesn't make that matchup unwinnable at all.
It's a similar thing for Gliscor. Fully Defensive Gliscor is 2HKO'd by Moon at +1 with BE attack. Knock Off does 57.1 - 67.3% and then non-Tera Acrobatics does 43.1 - 50.8%. Even something neutral like Tera Steel or Tera Fairy Tera Blast does 46.8 - 55.3% under the same +1 and BE attack conditions. A regular +2 Moon does even more damage. The increasingly common specially defensive Gliscor takes more damage.
I already did a post or so earlier explaining the Lando-T math. But any Tera that resists U-Turn could work similarly, including Steel, Fairy, Fire, and Ghost. You might say that Fire and Steel are weak to EQ and EP, but most of the time that Lando-T is U-Turning. They won't risk EQ because of the prevalence of Tera Flying and the pressure to not get turns wrong against RM.
My biggest problem with Ting-Lu and Skarmory examples in particular here is they are phasers that already have a good matchup. If Moon can't KO Skarm's remaining HP in 1 hit or Taunt it, it shouldn't be staying in on those mons in the first place. Unless the player is trying to get chip for something else. Similarly for Ting-Lu, although the Taunt set can sometimes use it as setup fodder. Obviously, something like Tera Steel cannot do this. But this was generally an unfavorable matchup in the first place.
The Zama matchup could become problematic, but it was already a bit problematic because of Roar. Zama as a phaser for Tera Flying Moon is sketchy due to the prevalence of Tera Flying Acrobatics. It can work, though it has to Tera to ensure the Acrobatics doesn't KO it. Zama can straight beat Moon if it isn't Tera Flying Acrobatics, Tera Ghost, or Tera Fairy, but it isn't so clear cut.
In conclusion, a lot of the Ground types can be brute forced past anyways. Maybe you need to be a little bit more careful with chip and a little less mindless with teambuilding. But I don't think it's as bad as you say. The phasing mons are as bad as you say, but Skarm and Lu in particular were already unfavorable matchups that could still somehow become favorable with Taunt. The Zama matchup was also complicated.
I assume most of the other Moon Teras would likely still run Acrobatics for the Fighting matchup. But Tera Fairy TB in particular is a bit more promising offensively. I'm pretty sure Fairy TB + Knock Off only gets walled by Gambit, the metal birds, and maybe the rare Geezing. The metal birds could maybe be brute forced through by Taunt and Knock Off. Gambit and non-Levitate Geezing could die to EQ.
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I feel the same dam way. I one time got swept by a dam sd Darkai that was running for some god forbidden reason sludge bomb.
WE CAN SWEAR???? OH FUCK YEAH!!!!!!!! (I never knew, now I can abuse this new founded power)
Always could bitch.