OU ADV OU Metagame Discussion

[YubelVT]

So I'm not entirely sure if this is the right place for this but I thought it would foster some discussion and I kinda like talking about stuff like this. Presenting my personal ADV OU Leads Tier List.

Before I start I just want to clarify some stuff. This is based on how much pressure they exert in the lead slot, how much it forces switches extremely early switches, and how often it is forced out itself. Zapdos, for example, while being forced out by ~4 of the leads in the tier immediately below it, exerts sufficient pressure on the rest of the pokemon here that I think it justifies its top slot.

So obviously you all know my thoughts on Zapdos, top 3 pokemon, best lead (in my opinion), barely suffers from 4mss, extremely hard to switch into, and can do almost whatever you want.

In the Really Good Leads tier, Skarmory is top dog, with Salamence and Tyranitar right behind him. It's an unordered tier after that.

Decent Leads is completely unordered but if I had to order the top 3 leads in this tier, it'd go Regirock Medicham Slaking

Matchup Fishing is ordered, with some pokemon that I haven't really seen in the lead slot present (Electrode specifically) but it does the same thing as Gardevoir but faster so I think it's a bit better.

Bad Leads are just leads that are not good at all. Forretress is probably a better lead than I'm giving it credit for and Raikou puts pressure on me specifically but overall you shouldn't have these in the lead slot.

Glalie is a shit lead stop using him.

Then we just have the tier you can ignore because I made this tier list using the viability ranking tier list and is full of irrelevant things. I probably should have put Starmie in Bad Leads and then named the bottom tier something else but it's too late. Anyway I'm honestly very interested in discussing the lead metagame and I hope this fosters some good discussion, even if it's just between me and one other person.

 

[mr.pinklives]

So I'm not entirely sure if this is the right place for this but I thought it would foster some discussion and I kinda like talking about stuff like this. Presenting my personal ADV OU Leads Tier List.

Before I start I just want to clarify some stuff. This is based on how much pressure they exert in the lead slot, how much it forces switches extremely early switches, and how often it is forced out itself. Zapdos, for example, while being forced out by ~4 of the leads in the tier immediately below it, exerts sufficient pressure on the rest of the pokemon here that I think it justifies its top slot.

So obviously you all know my thoughts on Zapdos, top 3 pokemon, best lead (in my opinion), barely suffers from 4mss, extremely hard to switch into, and can do almost whatever you want.

In the Really Good Leads tier, Skarmory is top dog, with Salamence and Tyranitar right behind him. It's an unordered tier after that.

Decent Leads is completely unordered but if I had to order the top 3 leads in this tier, it'd go Regirock Medicham Slaking

Matchup Fishing is ordered, with some pokemon that I haven't really seen in the lead slot present (Electrode specifically) but it does the same thing as Gardevoir but faster so I think it's a bit better.

Bad Leads are just leads that are not good at all. Forretress is probably a better lead than I'm giving it credit for and Raikou puts pressure on me specifically but overall you shouldn't have these in the lead slot.

Glalie is a shit lead stop using him.

Then we just have the tier you can ignore because I made this tier list using the viability ranking tier list and is full of irrelevant things. I probably should have put Starmie in Bad Leads and then named the bottom tier something else but it's too late. Anyway I'm honestly very interested in discussing the lead metagame and I hope this fosters some good discussion, even if it's just between me and one other person.
View attachment 634992

why is glalie such a bad lead?
i used jimothy's hoenn starters team, which a glalie lead, and it seems to work pretty well.
glalie gets spikes, taunt, and boom which is a pretty good set of moves for a lead to have
its decent speed tier ( for a lead) lets it taunt everything first, and basically guarantees one spike
you can boom out of rapid spin, or opponents spikes if you want to as well

 

[YubelVT]

why is glalie such a bad lead?
i used jimothy's hoenn starters team, which a glalie lead, and it seems to work pretty well.
glalie gets spikes, taunt, and boom which is a pretty good set of moves for a lead to have
its decent speed tier ( for a lead) lets it taunt everything first, and basically guarantees one spike
you can boom out of rapid spin, or opponents spikes if you want to as well

So I really don't respect suicide leads in gen 3 and Glalie also just loses to 3 of the big 5 leads, lets Skarmory get at least 1 spike up if it doesn't boom turn 1 and accomplish nothing, and really only forces Zapdos to pass out to something that can actually take an Ice Beam. Also, and this is anecdotal, almost every single time I see a Glalie on ladder it's on a team where a suicide lead is actively a bad thing and the spikes they work so hard to lay are removed by my Starmie almost immediately.

 

[Heatranator]

Overalll, a good tier list and only two I really disagree with. That is aerodactyl and forretress.
Aero is absolutely a really good lead and while I could see it as a bit of a 'matchup fish', it gives you a ton of knowledge about the team structure if they don't lead with swampert, as meta and other steels don't like taking e-quake. You are able to then position aero around it to threaten their rock resist (something that is required in gen 3) while not giving up any momentum early game. Def a good lead, plus having a good matchup into zapdos is amazing.
Forre is a decent lead. Simply having spikes and rapid spin makes it sort of a mini skarm in the fact it can get off a spike, while also making sure if the opponents skarm doesn't get one. You can even tech explosion to do big damage and switch to something that threatens their lead more effectively. Only really blaziken can threaten forre for big damage, so its usually safe to get a spike and spin up.

I also want to know why moltres is so low? Not that I'm necessarily disagreeing, but just wondered why? I feel like its more of a matchup fish from my experiences.

 

[YubelVT]

Overalll, a good tier list and only two I really disagree with. That is aerodactyl and forretress.
Aero is absolutely a really good lead and while I could see it as a bit of a 'matchup fish', it gives you a ton of knowledge about the team structure if they don't lead with swampert, as meta and other steels don't like taking e-quake. You are able to then position aero around it to threaten their rock resist (something that is required in gen 3) while not giving up any momentum early game. Def a good lead, plus having a good matchup into zapdos is amazing.
Forre is a decent lead. Simply having spikes and rapid spin makes it sort of a mini skarm in the fact it can get off a spike, while also making sure if the opponents skarm doesn't get one. You can even tech explosion to do big damage and switch to something that threatens their lead more effectively. Only really blaziken can threaten forre for big damage, so its usually safe to get a spike and spin up.

I also want to know why moltres is so low? Not that I'm necessarily disagreeing, but just wondered why? I feel like its more of a matchup fish from my experiences.

I think Moltres is a bad lead because it's completely destroyed by Zapdos, Jolteon, Non Mixed Salamence, Suicune, and Tyranitar leads while not really doing anything special by forcing out Skarmory, Metagross, and Gengar. It just doesn't do enough most of the time to be worth putting in the lead slot.

 

[Bedal Roscoe]

Indeed, I also think that Moltres is incredibly more threatening in the back, forcing out a lot of powerful mons (with FB and HP Grass) and threatening its checks with a pesky WoW.

By the way, I'm not sure that Skarm is the second best lead, especially against mixed Tar or Mence, and obviously Zapdos. And it can be trapped too early by Magneton if you don't Roar during the first turn. But still A tier of course.


EDIT : I would have also said that Arcanine and various grass types are usable in lead slots.

 

[YubelVT]

Indeed, I also think that Moltres is incredibly more threatening in the back, forcing out a lot of powerful mons (with FB and HP Grass) and threatening its checks with a pesky WoW.

By the way, I'm not sure that Skarm is the second best lead, especially against mixed Tar or Mence, and obviously Zapdos. And it can be trapped too early by Magneton if you don't Roar during the first turn. But still A tier of course.

Lead Skarm is almost always supported by some form of wish pass or leech seed pass and, barring the 1/16 fuck you chance, will always live an offensive Zapdos Thunderbolt which means at least one spike most of the time. It's also maybe the easiest pokemon in the entire tier to stack leftovers recovery with so it's not unrealistic for it to just get back to like 50% health from just lefties.

Also SkarmJolt completely turns the table on the Zapdos lead matchup and Jolteon is why I've been learning to love bulky Dugtrio (it's still worse than standard Dug tho)

 

[Heatranator]

So, with leads being discussed, I decided to come up with some potential leads that do well against a large majority of the metagame that are in the lowest tier (I do understand why they are there though, I ain't using mr mime in the lead slot lmao)


Lanturn @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
Hidden Power: Ghost
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SpA / 16 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Surf
- Rest
Lanturn is always a mon which I have been interested in over the generations, and this set counters all of lead zapdos, skarmory, salamence, jolteon, suicune and cloyster while doing well against ttar, blaziken and camerupt. The hp evs are to always survive a dd salamence e-quake from full and ko it back with ice beam. Ice beam also means it can 2hit ko zapdos leads while only taking 38% max. It looks like it has a decent matchup spread against the majority of the meta. Technically skarm can get a spike off, but it can too against zapdos so not much harm. Probably in the decent leads tier.


Qwilfish @ Salac Berry
Ability: Poison Point
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spikes
- Sludge Bomb
- Destiny Bond
- Self-Destruct/Endure
Something I have used in the past, lead qwilfish doesn't do well against quite a few leads, but what it does have is fast spikes. This is probably the worst of the leads I will show, but with fast spikes and destiny bond after the salac berry activates (acting as a pseudo custap berry) qwilfish can then take down its opponent with it. This would probably be best on HO teams that aim to break the opponent fast. Does get screwed over by lead skarm, but you still get spikes up so that's a bonus ig. I'd say the matchup fish tier is fair, though it is one of the better matchup fishes.


Cacturne @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 128 HP / 252 SpA / 128 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
- Spikes
- Giga Drain
- Thunder Punch
- Hidden Power [Ice]
A little funny cactus suprisingly does pretty good against a lot of leads. It of course, sets up spikes, but does suprisingly well against all of zapdos, skarm and swampert. It also can potentially threaten salamence (if they try to get cheeky and DD up on you), ttar (those who lack hidden power bug) and suicune (those who lack ice beam). This would probably be in the matchup fish tier, but it could do well. Skarm does get some layers of spikes up though, so you do have to be careful.


Jumpluff @ Leftovers
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 136 HP / 140 SpA / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Powder
- Toxic/Hidden Power Ice/Hidden Power Fire
- Giga Drain
- Protect
'Technically' doesn't counter any other leads besides swampert, but it does annoy the shit out of everything. The ev spread is very simple, there are enough special attack evs in order to 2hit ko defensive swampert, while the hp evs means you always live the ice beam in return. You still have enough speed to outspeed the base 100s so its alright. Technically is dead weight into skarm, but you can put it to sleep and switch to something that can threaten it. Toxic means that you can threaten something if they switch out, though hp ice or fire can threaten zapdos/salamence and skarm respectively (though zap and skarm don't take much). Protect allows it to scout any faster leads. Probably in the matchup fish tier since sleep accuracy screws you over.

Finally, I want to mention some mons that could be good in the lead slot, but I just couldn't fully develop their ideas.


Basically, magic coat is a very exclusive move and out of absol, girafarig and kecleon, grumpig was the best user. I do think that there is something that could be done, but idk on the exact spread. 120+ special attack is needed to 3hit ko zapdos but then you don't have enough bulk to survive either two swampert e-quakes or 4 zapdos thunderbolts.


Fake out + taunt looks extremely appealing, but idk it feels like it would be underwhelming. 252+ return doesn't even 2hit ko zapdos, meaning you have to go double edge. You still outspeed zap by one point though. Something that could be polished off later maybe.


With insane coverage on it, nidoking could genuinelly be good with a set of e-quake, hp grass, ice beam and flamethrower. However, it seems to not be able to tank as many hits as it wants to. Crucially, swampert e-quake is a clean ohko while hp grass isn't a OHKO. I genuinelly think it could be a good idea, but again, needs development.

Also, can I just say that its fucked up that armaldo cannot get both rapid spin and knock off. Let my boy have the spotlight. I was going to cook up such a good lead set for it but no, they decided to not have fun that day. >:(

 

[Triangles]

So, with leads being discussed, I decided to come up with some potential leads that do well against a large majority of the metagame that are in the lowest tier (I do understand why they are there though, I ain't using mr mime in the lead slot lmao)


Lanturn @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
Hidden Power: Ghost
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SpA / 16 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Surf
- Rest
Lanturn is always a mon which I have been interested in over the generations, and this set counters all of lead zapdos, skarmory, salamence, jolteon, suicune and cloyster while doing well against ttar, blaziken and camerupt. The hp evs are to always survive a dd salamence e-quake from full and ko it back with ice beam. Ice beam also means it can 2hit ko zapdos leads while only taking 38% max. It looks like it has a decent matchup spread against the majority of the meta. Technically skarm can get a spike off, but it can too against zapdos so not much harm. Probably in the decent leads tier.


Qwilfish @ Salac Berry
Ability: Poison Point
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spikes
- Sludge Bomb
- Destiny Bond
- Self-Destruct/Endure
Something I have used in the past, lead qwilfish doesn't do well against quite a few leads, but what it does have is fast spikes. This is probably the worst of the leads I will show, but with fast spikes and destiny bond after the salac berry activates (acting as a pseudo custap berry) qwilfish can then take down its opponent with it. This would probably be best on HO teams that aim to break the opponent fast. Does get screwed over by lead skarm, but you still get spikes up so that's a bonus ig. I'd say the matchup fish tier is fair, though it is one of the better matchup fishes.


Cacturne @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 128 HP / 252 SpA / 128 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
- Spikes
- Giga Drain
- Thunder Punch
- Hidden Power [Ice]
A little funny cactus suprisingly does pretty good against a lot of leads. It of course, sets up spikes, but does suprisingly well against all of zapdos, skarm and swampert. It also can potentially threaten salamence (if they try to get cheeky and DD up on you), ttar (those who lack hidden power bug) and suicune (those who lack ice beam). This would probably be in the matchup fish tier, but it could do well. Skarm does get some layers of spikes up though, so you do have to be careful.


Jumpluff @ Leftovers
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 136 HP / 140 SpA / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Powder
- Toxic/Hidden Power Ice/Hidden Power Fire
- Giga Drain
- Protect
'Technically' doesn't counter any other leads besides swampert, but it does annoy the shit out of everything. The ev spread is very simple, there are enough special attack evs in order to 2hit ko defensive swampert, while the hp evs means you always live the ice beam in return. You still have enough speed to outspeed the base 100s so its alright. Technically is dead weight into skarm, but you can put it to sleep and switch to something that can threaten it. Toxic means that you can threaten something if they switch out, though hp ice or fire can threaten zapdos/salamence and skarm respectively (though zap and skarm don't take much). Protect allows it to scout any faster leads. Probably in the matchup fish tier since sleep accuracy screws you over.

Finally, I want to mention some mons that could be good in the lead slot, but I just couldn't fully develop their ideas.


Basically, magic coat is a very exclusive move and out of absol, girafarig and kecleon, grumpig was the best user. I do think that there is something that could be done, but idk on the exact spread. 120+ special attack is needed to 3hit ko zapdos but then you don't have enough bulk to survive either two swampert e-quakes or 4 zapdos thunderbolts.


Fake out + taunt looks extremely appealing, but idk it feels like it would be underwhelming. 252+ return doesn't even 2hit ko zapdos, meaning you have to go double edge. You still outspeed zap by one point though. Something that could be polished off later maybe.


With insane coverage on it, nidoking could genuinelly be good with a set of e-quake, hp grass, ice beam and flamethrower. However, it seems to not be able to tank as many hits as it wants to. Crucially, swampert e-quake is a clean ohko while hp grass isn't a OHKO. I genuinelly think it could be a good idea, but again, needs development.

Also, can I just say that its fucked up that armaldo cannot get both rapid spin and knock off. Let my boy have the spotlight. I was going to cook up such a good lead set for it but no, they decided to not have fun that day. >:(

Cool sets, how has the Cacturne been working out for you on ladder?

 

[Redless]

Here's my lead tier list fwiw:

First two tiers are ordered : )

 

[YubelVT]

Here's my lead tier list fwiw:

View attachment 635149

First two tiers are ordered : )

So I like mostly agree with you but I think you're missing the mark on quite a few pokemon.

Lead Jolteon is legitimately good. It's stupid fast and hits annoyingly hard for being the fastest thing in the tier. Lead Loom is also very good but it's almost matchup fishy (but not actually a matchup fish mon because it's legitimately good by itself) because it can't really do much to Mence, SubPass Zapdos, or Faster Metagross variants, as well as getting murdered by suicune ice beams, but when it gets the spore + sub combo off it's one of the hardest things to switch into in the entire tier without a ghost thanks to focus punch. The lead Regis all kind of do the same thing but Registeel counter smacks all of the physical leads, Regice is maybe the hardest shutdown to lead mence and lead zap in the entire game (but isn't the greatest thing outside of that role), and Regirock's moveset of Rock Slide, Thunder Wave, Superpower, and whatever boom move it has makes it surprisingly difficult to deal with, especially given the weirdly potent defensive profile of mono rock typing.

Also, a tip for dealing with lead vaporeon: Offensive Zapdos HP Grass -> Thunderbolt kills it and doesn't let it eat the berry because you only need like 10% chip to have Thunderbolt kill and HP Grass does like 40% so it's very overkill

 

[YubelVT]

I’ve made an unfortunate realization: Regice + fast Dugtrio + Zapdos wipes every special offense team that doesn’t bring a Metagross. Someone please tell me I’m just a fucking moron lmfao

 

[Dawn Dreams]

According to lead usage stats. This is a pretty fair description of what leads are good and bad. Although I will say that Gengar is under used and people should try using it more with Hypnosis lead. While Ninjask is a controversial team structure it’s not all that common, only accounting for 1/48 teams. Three of the top five leads have good match ups into Ninjask. I don’t personally mind Ninjask but I understand why people don’t like it. From my limited experience Galilee is decent on special offense. Galilee can be used over Cloyster on a Cloyster + Gengar core.

 

[YubelVT]

According to lead usage stats. This is a pretty fair description of what leads are good and bad. Although I will say that Gengar is under used and people should try using it more with Hypnosis lead. While Ninjask is a controversial team structure it’s not all that common, only accounting for 1/48 teams. Three of the top five leads have good match ups into Ninjask. I don’t personally mind Ninjask but I understand why people don’t like it. From my limited experience Galilee is decent on special offense. Galilee can be used over Cloyster on a Cloyster + Gengar core.

Regice is a better lead than everything in F and D- tier except regirock and it's not close, unfortunately you then must either consider using the Regice + Zapdos + Fast Dugtrio core to cripple literally every special offense team not using metagross or just having a kinda mid lead

 

[Heatranator]

Regice is a better lead than everything in F and D- tier except regirock and it's not close, unfortunately you then must either consider using the Regice + Zapdos + Fast Dugtrio core to cripple literally every special offense team not using metagross or just having a kinda mid lead

I think reflect focus punch ampharos could be good on these special offense teams as with max defense investment, it can take two e-quakes from banded dugtrio with reflect up and hit it back with hidden power (either ice or grass). Regice doesn't like switching into a focus punch, which does 50% to it uninvested and Zapdos can't do shit to it. I think it's more of a gimmick set (it needs to click reflect turn one to actually deal with dugtrio), but it checks the boxes of taking on both regice and Zapdos while not crumpling to dugtrio. The only other mon I can think that can do this is jolteon with toxic, t-bolt, hidden power ice and baton pass.
Also, speaking of dugtrio, I've liked soft sand as the item to still do good damage to targets (though you do need more chip on some mons) while still being able to switch up moves. It can come in handy when somebody switches in a celebi only to get dropped by hidden power bug (because I am a masochist).

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Although I will say that Gengar is under used and people should try using it more with Hypnosis lead.

no pls, who wants to rely on 60% hypnosis acc just to eat a t wave or a lum rock slide from ttar... ur just asking to lose to bad hax... while landing a sleep once in 2 turns is 84% id rather not rely on a move that can screw my ass turn 1 if i miss it... god forbid if the lead is smth like lead meta, lum smeargle, t wave zapdos and its just gonna eat my ass... if i lead gar i might as well just say "fuck it" and run Destiny bond to guarantee a trade or use WoW on smth like mence, skarm, medicham,meta

 

[YubelVT]

no pls, who wants to rely on 60% hypnosis acc just to eat a t wave or a lum rock slide from ttar... ur just asking to lose to bad hax... while landing a sleep once in 2 turns is 84% id rather not rely on a move that can screw my ass turn 1 if i miss it... god forbid if the lead is smth like lead meta, lum smeargle, t wave zapdos and its just gonna eat my ass... if i lead gar i might as well just say "fuck it" and run Destiny bond to guarantee a trade or use WoW on smth like mence, skarm, medicham,meta

how often are smeargle leads using lum instead of salac tho, also you would just click taunt into a lead smeargle and they literally couldn't do anything

 

[Bedal Roscoe]

Well you need to run Taunt in your lead moveset then... Maybe the following moveset could work?
Taunt
Hypnosis
Will o Wisp
Ice Punch / Explosion

You run double status to cripple the foes following your needs.

 

[YubelVT]

Well you need to run Taunt in your lead moveset then... Maybe the following moveset could work?
Taunt
Hypnosis
Will o Wisp
Ice Punch / Explosion

You run double status to cripple the foes following your needs.

I don't respect hypnosis, just run ice punch. I would rather reliably scare out mence and offensive zapdos than unreliably sleep something that will probably kill me back if it misses

 

[Bedal Roscoe]

But Zapdos and Mence will not stay (normally) on a threatening Ice Punch so you could Hypnosis on the switch, I guess.

 

[YubelVT]

But Zapdos and Mence will not stay (normally) on a threatening Ice Punch so you could Hypnosis on the switch, I guess.

timid offensive zapdos isn't ohko'd by ice punch (barring the crit) and outspeeds bulky gengar while 2hko'ing with the faster thunderbolt so it probably should stay in if you're a gigachad


I still have no fucking clue how to deal with jolteon

 

[Bedal Roscoe]

That's why the proposed EV spread for Utility set is 168 HP 164 SpD 176 Spe to outspeed Zapdos and Mence. (You could run EV in SpA to deal more damage)

 

[YubelVT]

I've been trying to build a dual trap team to enable agiligross and I must say that 4 attacks snorlax is insanely fun to use. I think Earthquake should be the default move over Focus Punch (because I'm bad at prediction and I don't want it to be dead weight against metagross and also I'm lazy). My team is probably bad and I'm still on my lead zapdos shit (because it's good) and this is what I have so far and I think it's almost there https://pokepast.es/b9c629ff73817597

 

[YubelVT]

I cannot fucking STAND jolteon and I don't want to put a fatass normal type or swampert on every ADV team I build but I guess I have no choice. How the fuck do you all deal with jolteon because I just can't figure it out unless my opponent is genuinely incompetent and leaves it in against magneton without sub (I run dual status)

 

[vapicuno]

I cannot fucking STAND jolteon and I don't want to put a fatass normal type or swampert on every ADV team I build but I guess I have no choice. How the fuck do you all deal with jolteon because I just can't figure it out unless my opponent is genuinely incompetent and leaves it in against magneton without sub (I run dual status)

You have to predict the roar/bp. Otherwise you lose. Claydol helps though. Just don't get boomed/dbonded by Gengar.