Metagame 350 Cup

[Hiusi guy]

Arena Trap should be unbanned in 350 Cup

Counterpoint: No, trapping is inherently uncompetitive and doesn't help the tier in any positive way. As well your reasonings don't actually prove much.

Compress File

dealing subpar damage, extremely low bulk,

Defensive pivots and entry hazards exist. Hazards help remedy it's damage "problem", with defensive pivots or pivot move users in general helping it get on the field to most likely to take a ko or chunk a mon for free.

In a metagame where all stats, including HP, are doubled, Final Gambit becomes borderline useless to use

This was a good point until you said final gambit, like who tf used it before anyways????

Diglett and Dugtrio both die to priority

Again, defensive pivots. They don't have to stay in and take every attack unlike their foes, plus in a hail mary situation you still have sucker punch.

Being able to trap stall Pokemon does not matter at all if your Pokemon are slower.

Well then use a choice band or rest talk set, it has the bulk to survive just about any defensive mons hits without investment and then just kill them with very little support because of it's fuckin 200 Atk. It also learns quick attack and first impression so it can deal with some offensive mons as well, but it's not like it can't have defensive pivots like diglett.

Terastalization also allows Pokemon to mitigate the threat of being trapped and to cripple the opposing Pokemon.

It also helps them by letting them pick and choose what they want to trap and remove, plus there are like 3 teras that are fully helpful against them, being Ghost, Flying, and Grass. The first 2 because you can now switch with Grass being the only other option to resist their eqs. Everything else is neutral and can be removed by them or by a teammate after they effectively force them to tera.

The Arena Trappers are walled by Slowpoke, Shroomish, Hippopotas, and Sandygast, and they lose to many offensive Pokemon.

Offensive and Defensive pivots again , they don't have to be a one man army in order to be broken

They are not a threat to the meta whatsoever.

Yeah I agree... Only because we don't even have a meta yet due to the lack of ladder

Also if you say items as a solution than that further proves the trapping isn't something the tier wants/needs

TL;DR: You looked at all the negatives and nothing else, which makes your claims fall flat quickly

 

[InkyDarkBird]

Counterpoint: No, trapping is inherently uncompetitive and doesn't help the tier in any positive way. As well your reasonings don't actually prove much.

Defensive pivots and entry hazards exist. Hazards help remedy it's damage "problem", with defensive pivots or pivot move users in general helping it get on the field to most likely to take a ko or chunk a mon for free.
Again, defensive pivots. They don't have to stay in and take every attack unlike their foes, plus in a hail mary situation you still have sucker punch.

Well then use a choice band or rest talk set, it has the bulk to survive just about any defensive mons hits without investment and then just kill them with very little support because of it's fuckin 200 Atk. It also learns quick attack and first impression so it can deal with some offensive mons as well, but it's not like it can't have defensive pivots like diglett.

It also helps them by letting them pick and choose what they want to trap and remove, plus there are like 3 teras that are fully helpful against them, being Ghost, Flying, and Grass. The first 2 because you can now switch with Grass being the only other option to resist their eqs. Everything else is neutral and can be removed by them or by a teammate after they effectively force them to tera.

Trapping is not inherently uncompetitive when the users are terrible. As I said before, Diglett and Dugtrio deal so negligible damage that many stall Pokemon could easily outheal. Running Sucker Punch just to have a low chance to eliminate priority is basically a waste of a moveslot as Diglett is already one of the fastest Pokemon in the meta.
252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowpoke: 96-114 (17 - 20.2%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippopotas: 84-100 (17.6 - 21%) -- possible 5HKO
If you use resttalk on Trapinch you lose to Shroomish and Slowpoke. Trapinch gets no stat-boosting moves whatsoever.
Furthermore, after eliminating a Pokemon, both Trapinch and Diglett become free setup fodder.

However, given your analysis, I will modify my original request: Arena Trap should be unbanned and Trapinch should be banned.

 

[GlalieGoesBoom]

You reminded me that this tier exists. Unfortunately, you're wrong.
Trapping is uncompetitive in general, and the two mons that get access to it are nowhere near as helpless as you mentioned.

Diglett is one of the fastest mons in the meta, with 190 base speed plus Earthquake and Stone Edges coming off an admittedly mediocre 110 base attack. However, that is more than enough for its job, which is just to pick off offensive threats slower than it, which is almost all of the tier. It can easily make up for power with a Choice Band, not needing to predict due to trapping.
252+ Atk Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meditite: 220-261 (84.2 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Sure its slow. Too bad I can click First Impression. Its also just bulky enough to live one neutral attack and trade.
252 Atk Pure Power Meditite Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Trapinch: 309-364 (80.4 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Trapinch Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meditite: 345-406 (132.1 - 155.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Terastalization also allows Pokemon to mitigate the threat of being trapped and to cripple the opposing Pokemon.

What Tera actually does is allow them to trap whatever they want, and use Tera to win the 1v1. Also, they can just as easily scout and bait out Tera with protect.

The Arena Trappers are walled by Slowpoke, Shroomish, Hippopotas, and Sandygast, and they lose to many offensive Pokemon.

The entire point of trapping is that it allows you to bypass your conventional counters and just force 1v1s on the things you beat. The only way for offensive mons to beat them is 1) Have priority for Diglett and supereffective coverage for Trapinch 2)Not be weak to ground and 3)Have enough health to actually survive an attack, with the threshold for an OHKO being around 85% for most offensive mons, meaning that they can easily be chipped into range.

The only Pokemon they are beating are Magnemite, Mareanie, and Glimmet.

If you are only listing mons weak to ground, you forgot Fuecoco and Pawniard. See my previous points about Tera letting them beat whatever they want, and neutral Earthquakes OHKOing stuff with slight clip, and whatever coverage they can run.

Edit: The follow up two posts didn't load and I didn't see them. Hiusi Guy made some of the same points I did. It still doesn't matter how much damage Diglett do to defensive walls bc thats not the targets. Any choice locked mon can become setup fodder, at least those has to be piloted well to actually make progress.

 

[InkyDarkBird]

You reminded me that this tier exists. Unfortunately, you're wrong.
Trapping is uncompetitive in general, and the two mons that get access to it are nowhere near as helpless as you mentioned.

Diglett is one of the fastest mons in the meta, with 190 base speed plus Earthquake and Stone Edges coming off an admittedly mediocre 110 base attack. However, that is more than enough for its job, which is just to pick off offensive threats slower than it, which is almost all of the tier. It can easily make up for power with a Choice Band, not needing to predict due to trapping.
252+ Atk Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meditite: 220-261 (84.2 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Sure its slow. Too bad I can click First Impression. Its also just bulky enough to live one neutral attack and trade.
252 Atk Pure Power Meditite Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Trapinch: 309-364 (80.4 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Trapinch Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meditite: 345-406 (132.1 - 155.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Meditite defeats both Diglett and Trapinch. Meditite gets Bullet Punch, which has a much higher chance to OHKO Diglett than Diglett does to Meditite, and Choice Banded Close Combat easily OHKOs Trapinch. I do not understand what point you are trying to make.
252 Atk Choice Band Pure Power Meditite Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diglett: 164-193 (90.6 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Pure Power Meditite Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Trapinch: 463-546 (144.2 - 170%) -- guaranteed OHKO

What Tera actually does is allow them to trap whatever they want, and use Tera to win the 1v1. Also, they can just as easily scout and bait out Tera with protect.

The entire point of trapping is that it allows you to bypass your conventional counters and just force 1v1s on the things you beat. The only way for offensive mons to beat them is 1) Have priority for Diglett and supereffective coverage for Trapinch 2)Not be weak to ground and 3)Have enough health to actually survive an attack, with the threshold for an OHKO being around 85% for most offensive mons, meaning that they can easily be chipped into range.

Many offensive Pokemon can easily live one relatively weak Earthquake from Diglett and then OHKO it back.
252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zorua-Hisui: 175-207 (62.2 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pawniard: 218-258 (72.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Grimer-Alola: 290-344 (62.9 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The threshold for OHKO is not 85%. Both Grimer-Alola and Pawniard usually run some sort of bulk anyways.
Pawniard also gets Sucker Punch.
I don't consider baiting Terastalization to be broken, since whatever you switch out to likely has to suffer from a high-damage move.

If you are only listing mons weak to ground, you forgot Fuecoco and Pawniard. See my previous points about Tera letting them beat whatever they want, and neutral Earthquakes OHKOing stuff with slight clip, and whatever coverage they can run.

Sucker Punch can easily OHKO a resisting Diglett with Terastalization. I did forget Fuecoco, though.
252+ Atk Tera Dark Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Dark Diglett: 178-210 (98.3 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
What exactly is Terastalization allowing Diglett and Trapinch to beat?

 

[GlalieGoesBoom]

Meditite defeats both Diglett and Trapinch. Meditite gets Bullet Punch, which has a much higher chance to OHKO Diglett than Diglett does to Meditite, and Choice Banded Close Combat easily OHKOs Trapinch. I do not understand what point you are trying to make.

This isn't sudden death where the mons are locked in a 1v1 and the first one to KO the other wins. The only mon that can force that situation is the trapper. Sure Meditite wins if its a 1v1 and it gets to click Choice Banded Bullet Punch. Does that mean you're never going to lock yourself into any other move for fear of getting revenge killed? Is your best play against Corviknight to click Bullet Punch in case I U-turn and trap you? Similarly, are you really going to click Close Combat into Corv if Trapinch OHKOs you with First Impression after the defense drop? Trapping forces these lose lose scenerios and takes away the ability to outplay.

Many offensive Pokemon can easily live one relatively weak Earthquake from Diglett and then OHKO it back.
252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zorua-Hisui: 175-207 (62.2 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pawniard: 218-258 (72.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Grimer-Alola: 290-344 (62.9 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The threshold for OHKO is not 85%. Both Grimer-Alola and Pawniard usually run some sort of bulk anyways.

You seem to have conveniently left out an adamant nature (which it can run due to already having an insane speed) and Choice Band, which it can run if it's not running protect due to not needing to predict.
252+ Atk Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zorua-Hisui: 288-340 (102.4 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pawniard: 356-422 (110.9 - 131.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Grimer-Alola: 476-564 (103.2 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It's not even 85% threshold, it's outright OHKOs.

I don't consider baiting Terastalization to be broken, since whatever you switch out to likely has to suffer from a high-damage move.

It's not just baiting Tera, the options are you Tera or you die. "Suffering a high damage move" is meaningless because any breaker can Tera and inflict a "high damage move" on anything, even outside of the trapping. Thats why defensive core are a thing.

Sucker Punch can easily OHKO a resisting Diglett with Terastalization. I did forget Fuecoco, though.
252+ Atk Tera Dark Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Dark Diglett: 178-210 (98.3 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
What exactly is Terastalization allowing Diglett and Trapinch to beat?

Not every mon has priority and the power to OHKO. If my team is weak to Pawniard, I replace Diglett with Trapinch and I win the 1v1 anyway. Lets go to the CB Meditite vs Trapinch example. I Tera Ghost and I win immediately. I'm Tera Steel Sd Sub Diglett and Shroomish is setup fodder and I win on the spot. Are you just never going to send in Shroomish? Or I'm Tera Ghost Diglett and force you to never click Banded Fighting moves. Tera lets you get super effective coverage or immunity for whatever your team needs to beat.

 

[InkyDarkBird]

I forfeit my argument.
Someone else can take over if they wish to do so.

 

[InkyDarkBird]

Does anyone have any comments about #73 for unbanning Gastly?

 

[Notgamingreally]

I believe Gastly deserves to be unbanned from 350 cup. It gets countered fairly well by Toedscool, Pawniard, and Grimer-A which are the #2, #4, and #7 most used mons, respectively, across all games of this format.


252 SpA Life Orb Gastly Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Toedscool: 75-91 (20.6 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
Gastly does barely any damage to Assault Vest Toedscool, with numbers that are laughable when compared to Miraidon. In addition, Toedscool learns Knock Off, which does massive damage to Gastly and forces it to switch out.


252 SpA Life Orb Gastly Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Pawniard: 143-168 (37.2 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
While Pawniard is more risky to use than Toedscool, it still has decent chances of dealing with Gastly. Pawniard is able to switch in for free on Gastly's Sludge Bomb, while also having Sucker Punch and Night Slash to instantly OHKO it. While Pawniard could be burned and forced to 2HKO Gastly, it could easily Swords Dance on a predictable switch after Will-O-Wisp and deal heavy damage to the next pokemon.


252 SpA Life Orb Gastly Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Grimer-Alola: 105-125 (20 - 23.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Grimer-Alola fares the best out of the three mons, being able to resist both Shadow Ball and Sludge Bomb fairly well. It learns STAB Knock Off, as well as having far more reliable recovery with drain punch. Although it cannot deal as much damage as Pawniard since it loses its attack-raising options, it still gives the potential to poison whatever pokemon switches in.

Notes:
I used life orb, and not choice specs in my calculations since that would limit Gastly even further (predicting moves and switching to Zorua-H, Pawniard, Magnemite, etc).
If Gastly decides to use Will-O-Wisp and/or Nasty Plot, it must give up either Psychic or Tera Blast (likely fighting to counter Pawniard) as coverage.
Losing Tera Blast fighting causes Pawniard to beat Gastly.
Losing Psychic causes Gastly to potentially get OHKO'd by Glimmet (252 SpA Glimmet Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gastly: 255-300 (97.7 - 114.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO).
Dazzling Gleam is nearly useless for Gastly as Psychic and Tera Blast replace it.
Dark Pulse is nearly useless, yet likely necessary for Gastly since its the only move to counter Zorua-H.
If Gastly does not run Sludge Bomb due to its poor coverage, then it loses to Clefairy, which gets Knock Off and Psychic.
(#10 most used mon) naturally outspeeds Gastly and has Knock Off and an extremely powerful Thunder Punch (252 Atk Iron Fist Pawmo Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gastly: 247-292 (94.6 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO).

Toedscool is flawed as a check, no recovery particularly with av hurts and leaves it vulnerable to sludge bomb spamming
Pawniard is under the broad category of “exploitable offensive check”, since pawniard is unable to carry pursuit this Gen, there is nothing stopping gastly from switching out and leaving it chipped long term.
Grimer alola is the best however trying to check a mon long term with av and no regen is very prime for exploitation, conclusively none of these checks are very long term available or not exploitable
Pawmo can’t even switch into gastly at all.
Choice specs isn’t bad cause power is good.

 

[InkyDarkBird]

The reason behind my recent posts to try and unban Arena Trap and Gastly is due to the prominence and repetitiveness of Big Stall.
This is very ironic given how I play stall in many OMs, but in 350 Cup, there are too few stall Pokemon for it to be fun.

The same 8 Pokemon are used over and over:

Big Stall

Slowpoke
Toedscool
Hippopotas
Mareanie
Shroomish
Grimer-Alola
Fuecoco
Foongus

Out of the top 20 Pokemon in the weighted usage rates (https://www.smogon.com/stats/2023-08/gen9350cup-1760.txt), all 8 of the stall Pokemon I listed (besides Shroomish) had at least a 10% usage rate. It is unhealthy for the same 8 Pokemon to be making up the majority of stall teams. The low number of viable stall Pokemon takes out the fun and creativity of teambuilding, as there is barely anything to improve when you lose, and your opponent almost always knows exactly what set and item you are using.

Big Stall is NOT going away without action. With the addition of the DLC, Clefairy is now able to join Toedscool and nerf special attackers further, which usually only had to deal with Toedscool as the lone special defender on teams.

The forefront of this issue is Slowpoke, with the #1 weighted usage rate of 43%. This monster is the physically tankiest Big Stall Pokemon in the format that doubles as a pivot with Regenerator that supports other Big Stall Pokemon. If Slowpoke ever gets low, it can simply just switch out and heal from Regenerator after slowly chipping the opposing offensive attacker with Earthquake. Then, the opposing Pokemon has to deal with a Grimer-Alola or a Fuecoco or a Hippopotas, etc. Taunt barely does anything to Slowpoke, as it can just switch out instead of using Recover. The only way to efficiently take down Slowpoke is with hazard stack (which is inefficient with Regenerator anyways), and Glimmet almost always sacrifices itself placing hazards against Toedscool.

Wallbreakers are generally horrible in 350 Cup. They can beat stall, but their low speed and lack of priority makes them offensively useless against common threats such as Staravia, Pawmo, Zorua-Hisui, Growlithe-Hisui, Meditite, Houndour, etc. Glimmet, the fastest wallbreaker, has an atrocious movepool. Maschiff, for example, can easily threaten stall with Choice Band and Stakeout against Slowpoke (if it doesn't Terastalize), but having 102 speed makes it horrible at attacking anything else.

Calculations against Slowpoke:
The fact that Pawniard, the best Dark Pokemon in the format, struggles to defeat Slowpoke before getting 3HKOd by Earthquake is pitiful.
0 Atk Slowpoke Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pawniard: 136-160 (35.4 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Pawniard Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowpoke: 222-264 (39.3 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Pawniard is going to lose usage anyways from the presence of Mienfoo , which was also added in the DLC.

Grimer-Alola suffers this problem too, but at least it can somewhat cripple Slowpoke with Poison Touch.
0 Atk Grimer-Alola Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowpoke: 188-224 (33.3 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Grimer-Alola Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowpoke: 128-152 (22.6 - 26.9%) -- 32.7% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Slowpoke Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Grimer-Alola: 180-214 (34.3 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Growlithe-Hisui gets OHKOed by Earthquake or blocked by Hippopotas.
252+ Atk Choice Band Growlithe-Hisui Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowpoke: 270-318 (47.8 - 56.3%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Slowpoke Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Growlithe-Hisui: 396-468 (103.9 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Staravia chips itself down from Slowpoke simply using Slack Off.
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staravia Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowpoke: 258-304 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

You get the point. Slowpoke tanks almost every physical hit thrown against it, and other stall Pokemon easily cover its flaws. If you setup on it, Slowpoke will just pivot out to Fuecoco or chip you with Earthquake first. If you send in a super effective Pokemon, it can just Terastalize. Using pivot spam to beat stall with tempo? Rocky Helmet Slowpoke easily wrecks you.

If 350 Cup is elected as the OMOTM, the council ought to vote on Slowpoke by the end of the first week.

I sign this post with one of the saddest calculations I have ever seen.
236+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tera Dark Cranidos Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowpoke: 484-572 (85.8 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

 

[cat]

answering on behalf of myself and myself only. other council members may not share my sentiments.

The reason behind my recent posts to try and unban Arena Trap and Gastly is due to the prominence and repetitiveness of Big Stall.

This is not how tiering works at all - we don't tier to "nerf" a playstyle if the playstyle is too strong, we ban individual Pokemon if they're too strong and are problematic. Likewise, we don't free Gastly and Arena Trap just because stall is too strong in this meta - your posts failed to take into account other teamstyles that would be greatly affected by freeing Gastly / Arena Trap, like balance.

The same 8 Pokemon are used over and over:

Big Stall

Slowpoke
Toedscool
Hippopotas
Mareanie
Shroomish
Grimer-Alola
Fuecoco
Foongus

Out of the top 20 Pokemon in the weighted usage rates (https://www.smogon.com/stats/2023-08/gen9350cup-1760.txt), all 8 of the stall Pokemon I listed (besides Shroomish) had at least a 10% usage rate. It is unhealthy for the same 8 Pokemon to be making up the majority of stall teams. The low number of viable stall Pokemon takes out the fun and creativity of teambuilding, as there is barely anything to improve when you lose, and your opponent almost always knows exactly what set and item you are using.

Not much point arguing about usage when 2 DLCs have came out, expanding the list of Pokemon we have rn and, odds are, lessening centralization.

Big Stall is NOT going away without action. With the addition of the DLC, Clefairy is now able to join Toedscool and nerf special attackers further, which usually only had to deal with Toedscool as the lone special defender on teams.

Cool, one new guy that can become setup fodder for threats like SD / DD NDM, SD zacc, etc. Annoys hstack which I will go into more detail later.

The forefront of this issue is Slowpoke, with the #1 weighted usage rate of 43%. This monster is the physically tankiest Big Stall Pokemon in the format that doubles as a pivot with Regenerator that supports other Big Stall Pokemon. If Slowpoke ever gets low, it can simply just switch out and heal from Regenerator after slowly chipping the opposing offensive attacker with Earthquake. Then, the opposing Pokemon has to deal with a Grimer-Alola or a Fuecoco or a Hippopotas, etc. Taunt barely does anything to Slowpoke, as it can just switch out instead of using Recover. The only way to efficiently take down Slowpoke is with hazard stack (which is inefficient with Regenerator anyways), and Glimmet almost always sacrifices itself placing hazards against Toedscool.

Okay, if it does end up being broken, we can ban it. I'd just like to address the part where you say hstack does nothing against Slowbro which is straight up false. In an ideal scenario, Slowbro is taking 37% per switch in, which not only outdamages Regenerator, but now Slowbro has to live whatever it's switching into at least twice. It might be able to not get KOed during that one interaction, but it won't be the same for the subsequent interactions.

Wallbreakers are generally horrible in 350 Cup. They can beat stall, but their low speed and lack of priority makes them offensively useless against common threats such as Staravia, Pawmo, Zorua-Hisui, Growlithe-Hisui, Meditite, Houndour, etc. Glimmet, the fastest wallbreaker, has an atrocious movepool. Maschiff, for example, can easily threaten stall with Choice Band and Stakeout against Slowpoke (if it doesn't Terastalize), but having 102 speed makes it horrible at attacking anything else.

... These threats you listed down are wallbreakers though? They're not really pivots per se and they aren't really walls imo, so they're wallbreakers. Furthermore, their role is quite literally to break down walls over time so they can win in the long run. Maschiff is a prime example of a stallbreaker, if that's what you meant. Stallbreakers are inherently going to have a poor mu outside of stall since they tend to be slow, frail, or both, but very strong, allowing them to blast through stall. An example of this is Hoopa-U.

Don't think I can argue much against calcs, but this post is really ignoring the fact that passive damage is the easiest way by far to beat stall. With viable spinblockers in Bramblin, Gholdengo, Giratina formes, Poltchageist, and potentially more, spin can become an extremely unreliable method of hazard control, and with the lack of good Defoggers, BootsSpam is going to be extremely common, and without strong Knock Off absorbers, stall is just going to get farmed by something like, Gliscor Fat

 

[Imw0rstadP0keM0n]

Since this (currently) appears to be Junes' OMotM, I'll give some thoughts to some DLC2 pokemon I think have potential in the metagame.

250 attack monster

*Clicks Button* (Cranidos) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Tera Type: Rock/Fire/Ground
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Slide
- Fire Punch
- Earthquake
- Crunch/Thunder Punch/Swords Dance

Haha Smash (Cranidos) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Rock/Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Head Smash
- Earthquake
- Hammer Arm/Trailblaze
- Swords Dance

Admittedly, Cranidos is not super fast (116 is enough to outspeed some walls, but it fails to beat speed invested Arceus' sets), and VERY frail (134/80/60 is like, nothing for this meta game), but having two incredibly strong offensive abilities and nearly capped attack stat means it's DEFINITELY breaking walls.

I think the SFLorb set is going to be better than anything else, but I wanted a Moldy set for a potential anti-unaware wall or something similar.

Webs lmao

Cutiefly @ Focus Sash/Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Shield Dust
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sticky Web
- Stun Spore
- U-turn
- Moonblast

Really not sure what you expected. If webs are at all playable it'll be because we have a 168 speed web setter. Really not much to say here. Not enough SpA (or bulk) to make for a good QDancer IMO.

Very Versatile Setup Sweep

Scraggy @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Ghost/Fairy/Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance/Bulk Up
- Encore/Taunt
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch

Scraggy @ Leftovers
Ability: Shed Skin
Tera Type: Ghost/Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Rest
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch

Scraggy @ Life Orb
Ability: Moxie
Tera Type: Fighting/Ice/Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Ice Punch/Head Smash
- Close Combat
- Knock Off

Scraggy is a very versatile pokemon with three very strong abilities and a lot of versatility for setup/sweeping. Furthermore, those require different counterplay, so Scraggy is a spooky threat. It might be a bit vulnerable to unaware phys walls (of those, I think Skeledirge is the scariest despite Scraggies' access to STAB Knock Off) but I genuinely think this will be a great mon.

Poltergiest go bree skrt

Golett @ Choice Band
Ability: No Guard
Tera Type: Ghost/Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Poltergeist
- Earthquake
- Knock Off


Golett
Ability: No Guard
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Poltergeist
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock

Ghosts seem essential in this meta, and one that fully immunes Pawmo's stabs is pretty nice! Polter + Dynamic hits hard. I could also see no item + rock as an offensive rock setter working well (no item to avoid dying to strong Knockers)

Any thoughts?

 

[splodge]

Scorbunny @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Libero
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- High Jump Kick
- U-turn
- Sucker Punch

Could be a decent fast pivot I guess? I just want to make my favourite Pokémon work

 

[Schpoonman]

Since this (currently) appears to be Junes' OMotM, I'll give some thoughts to some DLC2 pokemon I think have potential in the metagame.

250 attack monster

*Clicks Button* (Cranidos) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Tera Type: Rock/Fire/Ground
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Slide
- Fire Punch
- Earthquake
- Crunch/Thunder Punch/Swords Dance

Haha Smash (Cranidos) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Rock/Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Head Smash
- Earthquake
- Hammer Arm/Trailblaze
- Swords Dance

Admittedly, Cranidos is not super fast (116 is enough to outspeed some walls, but it fails to beat speed invested Arceus' sets), and VERY frail (134/80/60 is like, nothing for this meta game), but having two incredibly strong offensive abilities and nearly capped attack stat means it's DEFINITELY breaking walls.

I think the SFLorb set is going to be better than anything else, but I wanted a Moldy set for a potential anti-unaware wall or something similar.

Webs lmao

Cutiefly @ Focus Sash/Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Shield Dust
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sticky Web
- Stun Spore
- U-turn
- Moonblast

Really not sure what you expected. If webs are at all playable it'll be because we have a 168 speed web setter. Really not much to say here. Not enough SpA (or bulk) to make for a good QDancer IMO.

Very Versatile Setup Sweep

Scraggy @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Ghost/Fairy/Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance/Bulk Up
- Encore/Taunt
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch

Scraggy @ Leftovers
Ability: Shed Skin
Tera Type: Ghost/Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Rest
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch

Scraggy @ Life Orb
Ability: Moxie
Tera Type: Fighting/Ice/Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Ice Punch/Head Smash
- Close Combat
- Knock Off

Scraggy is a very versatile pokemon with three very strong abilities and a lot of versatility for setup/sweeping. Furthermore, those require different counterplay, so Scraggy is a spooky threat. It might be a bit vulnerable to unaware phys walls (of those, I think Skeledirge is the scariest despite Scraggies' access to STAB Knock Off) but I genuinely think this will be a great mon.

Poltergiest go bree skrt

Golett @ Choice Band
Ability: No Guard
Tera Type: Ghost/Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Poltergeist
- Earthquake
- Knock Off


Golett
Ability: No Guard
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Poltergeist
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock

Ghosts seem essential in this meta, and one that fully immunes Pawmo's stabs is pretty nice! Polter + Dynamic hits hard. I could also see no item + rock as an offensive rock setter working well (no item to avoid dying to strong Knockers)

Any thoughts?

Gotta carry Trick on a Choiced GUNDAM set, giving a Band to your opponent's glue mon is instant serotonin.

 

[Dorsia]

So this tier is basically Evioliteless Little Cup on steroids. Poor having 351 BST lmao.

Here is my favourite core:

+ +

set the hazards while having offensive presence. Sash with Spikes or Power Herb with Meteor Beam look really good.
acts as a spinblocker that will abuse Wisp/Hex on opposing spinners and anything that can't be poisoned.
comes into potential Defog and starts sweeping. It has excellent typing paired with Zorua-Hisui.

Finally you can add any Fighting type to this core in order to deal with other and to preserve your Tera.

Also, is any good so far? It might shine in this tier.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Please quick ban Last Respect

 

[tommytt22]

@ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Acid Armor
- Recover
- Stored Power

not too many dark types in this format, usually one per team if that. solosis makes quick work once theyre gone

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I'm a 100 points ahead of nr 2 on the ladder rn thanks to abusing Last Respects. It got banned with a 95.3% majority from Ubers, most people seem to agree that it's broken AF so can we ban it now?

Also, so this isn't a repeat of my last post, lets talk about this guy!

Scraggy is pretty nuts right now. Arguably the strongest singular threat in the current metagame. According to one website, Scraggy returned with the Indigo Disk DLC so this is the first time it's legal in this format and generation. At first it was a bit overshadowed as a fighting type by the stronger/faster and , but it's coming into its own as a bulky setup sweeper.

Scraggy has a lot of options in terms of movepool and ability. It has three good abilities to choose from in Shed Skin, Moxie and Intimidate - imo ranked in that order of viability. New to SV is that Scraggy can now tera out of its 4x weakness to fairy and 2x to fighting, making it even more difficult to take down.

It also has all the moves it could dream of:
Knock off, Drain Punch, Close Combat, Poison Jab, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Iron Head and Stone Edge for stab & coverage. However, it also has Dragon Dance, Bulk Up, Taunt, Encore and Amnesia to aid its setup.

All of this is paired with the crazy statspread: 100/150/140/70/140/96 - BST: 696

A lot of people are immediately drawn to Dragon Dance and use it as a pure offensive setup sweeper, but I've found far, far more success using a bulky, specially defensive bulk up + taunt set. 100/140/140 is amazing defensively and means Scraggy can setup on so many things. With leftovers and drain punch you can stay healthy, with taunt + shed skin you 1v1 unaware and (tera Poison). Even uninvested you still have 336 attack so you're no slouch offensively either.

Sets

Sp.def Bulk up
Scraggy @ Leftovers/Heavy Duty Boots
Ability: Shed Skin
Tera Type: Poison/Water/Fairy/Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch
- Taunt/Encore/Amnesia

Offensive DD
Scraggy @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Leftovers/Lum Berry
Ability: Shed Skin/Moxie
Tera Type: Poison/Fairy/Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch/Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Dragon Dance
- Poison Jab/Taunt/Stone Edge

 

[Sh1nych@rm]

So like solosis is cool

 

[InkyDarkBird]

I was completely wrong about Slowpoke being broken. I forgot that Smeargle exists now from the DLC.

Smeargle is the best hazard setter in the tier. Smeargle can compress multiple Pokemon with different hazards into one, which nearly eliminates the purpose of using other hazard setters. This is furthered by its high base speed of 150. Stone Axe and Ceaseless Edge are unblockable since they cannot be Taunted and easily chip opposing Pokemon. Sticky Web is even more useful for Smeargle, as the only other Web setters are Sewaddle (atrocious typing) and Ribombee (webs and maybe Stun Spore), and Sticky Web enables slower Pokemon such as Scraggy, Pawniard, Cranidos, and Mienfoo to wreak havoc on the opposing team.

Compared to other hazard removal options, Mortal Spin is ridiculously good since the only 3 relevant Steel Pokemon are Pawniard, Magnemite, and Bronzor. This means that Smeargle is almost always successfully using Mortal Spin and Poisoning a valuable hazard remover, defensive wall, or lead that isn't Glimmet. Meanwhile, Rapid Spinners such as Toedscool/Tentacool, Drilbur, and Sandshrew have to deal with Bramblin (which funnily also gets Rapid Spin), Sandygast, Zorua-Hisui, Giratina, and Basculegion. Because of this, Bramblin and Delibird are the best Rapid Spinners because they threaten most other Ghost Pokemon and have great utility.

Delibird is one of the best Ice Pokemon under 350 BST with Destiny Bond, Spikes, and Rapid Spin. Bramblin also gets Spikes, Strength Sap, and Leech Seed.

The only Defoggers are Drifloon and Giratina, both of which have no reliable recovery, but do have Will-O-Wisp, Hex, and Destiny Bond.

Cinderace sucks.

Another thing keeping Smeargle in check is Heavy Duty Boots, but this is threatened by popular Pokemon such as Mienfoo, Pawmot, Scraggy, Nuzleaf, and Grimer-Alola having Knock Off.

TLDR

Smeargle Ceaselessly Axes Webs that Mortally wound my Pokemon and that makes me sad

What does the community think about Smeargle being the most ABUSIVE hazard setter while being the BEST hazard remover at the same time?

 

[ThatXurkitreeUser]

just wanna be quick here Sinistea is BROKEN, most moves crack biased mixed walls Like marinie or slowpoke

 

[NidoTheKing]

I get to talk about my favorite little fun guy in this format once again!

120/80/120/80/120/70
No Spore? No problem!

Shroomish @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Water / Steel / Fairy
EVs: 112 HP / 240 Def / 136 SpD / 20 Spe
Careful Nature / Calm Nature
- Protect
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Facade/Seed Bomb/Sludge Bomb/Toxic

With its literally godly bulk combined with Poison Heal and Leech Seed, Shroomish becomes an infuriatingly difficult thing for some teams to break through while they are passively deteriorated over time. Protect is the cornerstone of the set, providing free turns of healing and allowing Toxic Orb to activate. Combined with Substitute, Shroomish can theoretically stall out entire teams with its passive healing. Leech Seed rounds out the set by constantly whittling down the opponent while continuously healing Shroomish even further in the process. The last move is mostly interchangeable, not because there are so many options to choose from, but because Shroomish's movepool is so admittedly disappointing that it's more like choosing the least worst option. Facade is probably the most obvious choice, becoming a more respectable 140 Base Power option that deals consistent neutral damage. Alternatively, Seed Bomb provides a useful STAB option that can deal more immediate damage to the likes of Kyogre. Sludge Bomb gives Shroomish the option to punish opposing Grass types that would otherwise be immune to Leech Seed, while also spreading Poison to increase the passive damage over time. Similarly, Toxic gives Shroomish a more permanent method of crippling opponents with more potent Poison, but it does mean that Shroomish will have no offensive options of its own and makes it more prone to the likes of Taunt, Magic Guard and Magic Bounce.

The EVs provided balance Shroomish's defenses and brings its HP up to 409, which is a increases the overall healing number for Poison Heal and lets it set up 101 HP Substitutes. 20 Speed EVs can let Shroomish speed creep past uninvested Fuecoco, which could otherwise be a thorn in Shroomish's side. The defensive investment provided doesn't necessarily focus on any specific damage calculation feats, but it's not supposed to. In fact, the EVs are very flexible given the condition because Shroomish is so bulky that it can prepare for mostly anything. To further emphasize just how unbelievably bulky Shroomish can get: An EV spread of 208/0/52/0-/248+/0 lets Shroomish survive being 2HKO'd by Modest 252 SpA Choice Specs Kyogre's Ice Beam at full health when combined with Poison Heal and Protect, while Shroomish deals up to 45.7% - 54.5% damage back with Seed Bomb. The Tera type can really be any type your team needs, but in reality you shouldn't be dedicating your Terastalization to Shroomish unless it's an emergency.

It's important to understand that, while Shroomish has insane defenses and can outstall many things, it doesn't mean that it can wall everything. Grass is still a flawed defensive typing with many weaknesses, and Shroomish is still relatively passive because of its lack of immediate attacking power. Clefairy, for example, is an absolutely horrendous matchup for Shroomish, being immune to all of the passive damage that Shroomish relies on and turning it into setup fodder at best or a free kill at worst. Alolan Grimer makes a fantastic and synergistic partner for Shroomish, where Shroomish shores up Alolan Grimer's Ground weakness and provides it valuable Leech Seed recovery while Alolan Grimer can whack Clefairy and break big enough holes to let Shroomish capitalize off of. Positioning is extremely important for Shroomish; you can't just let it come in freely without activating Toxic Orb and expect everything to work out. If the opponent happens to status Shroomish or remove its Toxic Orb before it gets the chance to activate, you may have accidentally given yourself a bad handicap for the remainder of the match. With that in mind, pivoting makes this much easier for Shroomish to navigate and come in to turn on Poison Heal. Finally, you should not expect Shroomish to be able to withstand high-octane boosted threats even with its impressive defenses, so a Pokemon with Unaware such as Wooper or Fuecoco should definitely be considered to take on what Shroomish cannot.

 

[Emolgalomomola]

Fun goofy set that can actually be quite good, scarf transform smeargle

Essentially can be used to click ceaseless edge a million times as usual, have a very fast sticky web setter, and be able to cripple walls with trick scarf, while also being able to reverse sweep, especially useful with a good defensive tera type on the turn of the transform, the speed tiers in this format are a bit strange so adding some speed to the set could allow for better abusing of boosted sweepers, max hp of course is essential and a spdef spread could be helpful against glimmora/sinnistea

Smeargle @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Technician
Shiny: No
Tera Type: Steel / Ghost / Water / Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Transform
- Ceaseless Edge
- Trick
- Stone Axe / Mortal Spin / Nuzzle

While Transform is the fun part spikes setting with trick scarf allows progress to be made very well into most team archetypes

 

[BugManiacW]

May I point out some Pokemon whom should probably be banned.

 

[BugManiacW]

How is this legal

 

[InkyDarkBird]

You definitely have to play a lot more games in the meta if you think Pokemon that don't even reach base 150 offenses are broken.

Glimmet is balanced because it has poor coverage and is slow.