Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[Mr Potato Head]

Also, I just want to point out how rude and damaging things like this are. Like take away the fact that it’s blatant misinformation for a second: you realize how awful this paints people who are in charge? And you realize that you’re saying this despite so much information on the contrary being available???

There was a public suspect, but it fell short. There were repeated surveys open to the public on it, but it fell short and wasn’t even close each time. There were numerous public threads on it, but it never got much support after the infancy of the metagame.

What conspiracy is there? I run this shit and I even voted for action on Tera at the beginning of the generation. Perhaps the real problem is people having the audacity to spread nonsense like this.

I get why you’re being defensive about this, but I’m referring to the people that own the site, not you or any of the staff responsible for tiering action. you personally have indicated chaos, at least, holds a resistance towards the examination of so-called generational mechanics in the past. This communication is apparently not being made to the community at-large, hence my use of the word conspiracy.

The method of suspect and survey with regards to tera is something I don’t think was conducted without bias (whether intentionally or not), and I think to retroactively point to these things as conclusive “lack of support” is not an accurate representation of events.

in any case, my personal attestation is that I accept that for one reason or another, Tera is seemingly something smogon is not going go restrict in its metagames, so I will enjoy them as I can, which means clicking stellar tera blast into opponents that try to “outplay” me with their apparently “healthy” and “balanced” Tera ghost kingambit.

 

[Finchinator]

I get why you’re being defensive about this, but I’m referring to the people that own the site, not you or any of the staff responsible for tiering action. you personally have indicated chaos, at least, holds a resistance towards the examination of so-called generational mechanics in the past. This communication is apparently not being made to the community at-large, hence my use of the word conspiracy.

The method of suspect and survey with regards to tera is something I don’t think was conducted without bias (whether intentionally or not), and I think to retroactively point to these things as conclusive “lack of support” is not an accurate representation of events.

Did you read what I said on this when it was brought up or are you just making things up as you go? Because if it’s the former, then re-read those initial posts.

Chaos allowed the Tera test like he did the Dynamax test. You can agree or disagree with him on how he runs the site, but he has not once yet stood in the way of tiering across my tenure as TL. One time he expressed hope for things to stay and he asked for rational, but he never stood in the way of how we proceeded and has actually been really supportive whenever I talk to him. I haven’t been close to him since 2020 and don’t always agree with upper staff, but I can say without a single doubt in my mind that there is no interference. Can that change in the future? Maybe? I don’t know?? But it hasn’t yet and implying there’s some conspiracy without a shred of evidence is so frustrating and, to put it bluntly, dangerous.

Surveys aren’t even run by him — I don’t even know if he follows them in the slightest bit. They are all done by the council, patrolled largely by myself, and not done with any external bias or factors. I am incredibly transparent about the timeline of them and the process going into them to decide what is included. Site ownership has done nothing to tinker with the wording or approach applied to them, and they haven’t ever even commented on them.

Site ownership had nothing to do with Tera going back on surveys, nothing to do with how the initial Tera suspect was structured, and nothing to do with the decision to suspect Tera (much like Dynamax). We couldn’t quickban a generational mechanic, but that is moot as there was never a majority, let alone a supermajority, within the council to ban it and this also seems like common sense that the community should decide core mechanics within reason.

Perhaps realize that the clear majority accept the mechanic and want it allowed. There’s no grand conspiracy.

 

[SittinGamer]

Perhaps I should have read literally the three most recent messages before posting mine. I like Tera overall, for the record.

It is a skill check but Zam is honestly the most annoying thing for me, with Kyurem as a close second due to just how many dang things that can run. Some are obvious at preview like Veil, but still. That cold turkey really just be eviscerating things.

 

[Finchinator]

This is not reflective on you or the council but did you not state multiple times that generational mechanics have a higher bar to be suspected or removed and that site leadership had made it comparatively difficult to suspect both mechanics?

Yes to the former — any generational mechanic should have a higher bar to be banned. We cannot quickban them and we should let them sit for a few weeks while people figure them out. Each of the last two generations we did this and then promptly suspected them. It should take slightly more to suspect something so defining, especially relative to a single Pokemon.

I never said site ownership made it difficult. On the contrary, they’ve been cooperative. They just want an explanation as to why and they want to understand what’s going on as it’s obviously a big topic. The only time I said there may be an issue would be if it came to defacing an entire generation after the fact (I.e: if we wanted to turn around and suspect Tera in 2030), but we haven’t even gotten to that point and I highly doubt we ever will.

 

[SittinGamer]

Yes to the former — any generational mechanic should have a higher bar to be banned. We cannot quickban them and we should let them sit for a few weeks while people figure them out. Each of the last two generations we did this and then promptly suspected them. It should take slightly more to suspect something so defining, especially relative to a single Pokemon.

I never said site ownership made it difficult. On the contrary, they’ve been cooperative. They just want an explanation as to why and they want to understand what’s going on as it’s obviously a big topic. The only time I said there may be an issue would be if it came to defacing an entire generation after the fact (I.e: if we wanted to turn around and suspect Tera in 2030), but we haven’t even gotten to that point and I highly doubt we ever will.

Let's be real if Gen 9 has a legacy metagame in 2030 Tera will NOT be what people are yapping about.
Itll be Kingambit still

 

[658Greninja]

Thank you for the response. I guess my next question is what is so unique about this? The OU Tier is seemingly filled with threats that can 2HKO if not outright OHKO the tier after boosts, and the right coverage options. Look no further than Kingambit. So what makes Kingambit an essential pillar of the tier, and Ogerpon-W a menace to society? Does Ogerpon-W bring nothing to the tier, and does it have few to no weaknesses?

I guess I’m trying to say why should Overton-W be banned over Kyurem or Darkrai? Saying those two because it has been made abundantly clear by our fearless leader that these three are on the chopping block.

To continue,



Gambit is more beneficial to the tier than Waterpon. It helps pivot around ghosts, check a slew of offensive threats with Sucker and its good natural bulk, most notably Kyurem. Being the Gen 9 equivalent to Ttar, teams have to account for it in the builder. Fortunately we have several viable means in doing so.

Helmet mons like Tusk, Lando, and Ting-Lu can force damage on Gambit, with Lando weakening it with Intimidate and preventing further setup with Taunt.

Cinder, Pult, Tran, Molt can burn Gambit unless its running Lum or Tera Fire.

Roar Zama is fantastic into all Gambits, even being able to beat Tera Fairy Blast by Terastilizing itself.

Skarm/Corv can do well into non-Tera Ghost variants.

But the important thing to note is its vulnerability to Encore, one of the best moves in the format. With Encore, Gambit cannot freely click Sucker or Swords Dance. Gambit’s low 50 speed is important means most of the tier’s Encore users outspeed it. With Waterpon tho, only two relevant OU mons with Encore outspeed it and Wogre is generally strong enough to not need to click SD. That’s why Wogre runs pivot sets half the time while Gambit is never without SD. Wogre not being punished by Flame Body or Helmet sets it apart from every other physically offensive threat, not helped by the fact our most common physical walls are threatened by its STABs. It’s easier to punish Gambit than it is to punish Waterpon.



These two are the most comparable to Wogre, being wallbreakers that have been controversial for quite some time. I’ll start with Kyurem.

Specs Kyurem hits harder than Waterpon’s Cudgel.

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 186-219 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 220-261 (64.5 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And with the tier being more physically bulky, getting Kyurem on the field is going to be more rewarding. The speed difference here isn’t really big since its only missing out on outspeeding Enam, Wake, Ogre, and Crown. Kyurem also has more sets to run like Boots, Mixed, Sub-Tect, and DD.

but one has more entry points and requires less support than the other.

Waterpon good typing gives it entry points into Water moves like

‘s Surf or

‘s Flip Turn. Weak Knocks from

or

.

And

as most of them don’t run Fighting STAB these days.

While Kyurem has great bulk for an offensive threat, its defensive typing doesn’t give it many opportunities to come in outside of mons like

who still threatens to remove its Boots/Specs.

Kyurem is gonna be coming in via pivoting or double switches.

This is further established through Kyurem taking 25% from rocks and Boots variants being easier for Gking Balance to pivot around. So this raw power needs hazard control. While Waterpon appreciates hazard control, it doesn’t need it. Wogre is devastating on its own vs hazard stack teams. Kyurem can be slowed down by Gking, Gambit, AV Crown, the former two are top 5 in the tier. While you can make the same case with Wogre as Zama/Pult are on Gking’s caliber, they don’t actually like switching into it.

For Darkrai, it has the dangerous combination of being the 4th fastest mon in the tier and being a great wallbreaker. We’ve seen a shiton of sets on ot like AoA, NP 3atks, Scarf, Boots Knock, Wisp, Bulky variants, and Specs.

But Wogre is still more devestating for a few reasons. Despite Darkrai’s high SpA, Dpulse is surprisingly weak, meaning mons like Cinderace or even Gking can tank a hit and pivot out into something that threatens it, most commonly Zama. Like Kyurem, its defensive typing is pretty mediocre, being too frail to take advantage of its Dark resist and most of the Psychic types being able to cripple it on the switch. With good pivoting, you can play around Darkrai’s Dpulse and coverage moves but its not as simple as with Waterpon who chunks everything with Ivy anyways.

In short, the small traits Waterpon has pushes it over the edge compared to other great wallbreakers. Atm I don’t find Kyurem and Darkrai to be a problem, and even if I did, I would still ban Wogre before them.

 

[burstslinky]

I’m glad you asked.

Balance often needs more than one Wogre check because it’s so strong alone that it can rip through its checks, resulting in Wogre bulldozing through the rest of the team. Most of them also lack reliable recovery, so they susceptible to getting worn down.

The checks in question are cited as



These two take big chunks from Ivy and hate Knock, but they can threaten it out at least.



These three dragons can take on Wogre, but they get battered down over a course of a game and die to Play Rough.



One of the better checks imo, but Wogre can break through this after Multiscale is broken with SD boosted Tera Water Cudgel. It’s also not hard to break Multiscale since Wogre is often paired with RH Lando and mons that apply pressure to Dnite.

+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 257-303 (79.5 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Adamant straight up kills after the smallest chip.

+2 252+ Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 282-332 (87.3 - 102.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO



Can switch into Wogre but gets 2HKOd by Pwhip and hates U-Turn. You also need to Tera in order to actually OHKO.



Can outspeed and threaten with Leaf Storm or Glare, but hates U-Turn variants. Also Serp isn’t great run due to current meta trends.



Dies to +2 Play Rough and is also not great rn. Too many common weaknesses and doesn’t even threaten much to Wogre.



Can pivot into Ivy and tank an unboosted Pwhip, but it dies after a SD.



Dies to +2 Knock and can be exploited by common Wogre teammates like Ghold.



Pex dies to +2 Whip and is free entry for alot of Wogre’s teammates. Same with Amoonguss who is probably the closest thing to a hard check.

i agree that balance would need to run at least 1-2 of these, and that it does restrain team building to an extent, but aren't you already including these on your balance teams regardless of woger or not. pult is already imo the greatest mon to ever grace ou, and is already an amazing mon on balance, particularly the boots set, and also helps deal with other problem mons like gambit, kyurem, zama, etc.
zama, bolt, kyurem, and sometimes rilla are also some picks that you include on balance, but they are not inclusions purely because of oger.
the way i view it is that a problem pokemon is one that can completely fry well built teams easily unless said teams are carrying extremely specific and limited/uncommon mons. oger is an amazing breaker, but its answers are mons that are already incredible for other reasons. i dont think any well built teams are just getting completely fried by oger on the spot. i think its inclusion in the tier adds more to BO and offense than it takes away from stall and balance

 

[Moyashi]

i agree that balance would need to run at least 1-2 of these, and that it does restrain team building to an extent, but aren't you already including these on your balance teams regardless of woger or not. pult is already imo the greatest mon to ever grace ou, and is already an amazing mon on balance, particularly the boots set, and also helps deal with other problem mons like gambit, kyurem, zama, etc.
zama, bolt, kyurem, and sometimes rilla are also some picks that you include on balance, but they are not inclusions purely because of oger.
the way i view it is that a problem pokemon is one that can completely fry well built teams easily unless said teams are carrying extremely specific and limited/uncommon mons. oger is an amazing breaker, but its answers are mons that are already incredible for other reasons. i dont think any well built teams are just getting completely fried by oger on the spot. i think its inclusion in the tier adds more to BO and offense than it takes away from stall and balance

To be clear, restrictiveness in teambuilding doesn't just mean "putting less viable pokemon on your team to check a big threat". It's also about the extent of how many resources you have to dedicate to answer pokemon and how this can affect gameplay and teambuilding. Wellspring demands on average for balance, 2 checks minimum which usually comes in the form of an offensive resist+bulky resist. The problem here comes in how circumstantial much of these structures can feel vs it, as it can sometimes just not work depending on Wellspring's 4th moveslot or if Ivy Cudgel decides to be a bastard and crit your offensive check Zamazenta or Dragapult or Kyurem or Raging Bolt, making them far less stable answers. With the matter of its 4th moveslot choice, the standard Play Rough you often see already cuts down the list of true answers alongside SD and its stab moves. But options like Knock Off, Encore and U-Turn all hamper this as well. Where this really gets to be dangerous is that Wellspring's speed makes it the kind of pokemon that is very dangerous to try scouting. You end up giving it potential to SD, and then are at the mercy of what move it picked last. Until that last move is revealed, you have to walk on eggshells around it and make risky plays even while also having those 2 checks to it.

it's rare for even broken mons we've banned in the past to "completely fry teams" when they're running specific checks or structures to answer them, and that's not really different for Wellspring. That's without considering how easy it can be for Wellspring to have its checks minimized and crippled or hampered by its teammates, which further complicates answering it.

Also just for the record, Pult is awesome and a top tier for these past two gens but it's nowhere near the greatest mon to ever touch OU. not by a longshot.

 

[GummyRowlets]

To be clear, restrictiveness in teambuilding doesn't just mean "putting less viable pokemon on your team to check a big threat". It's also about the extent of how many resources you have to dedicate to answer pokemon and how this can affect gameplay and teambuilding. Wellspring demands on average for balance, 2 checks minimum which usually comes in the form of an offensive resist+bulky resist. The problem here comes in how circumstantial much of these structures can feel vs it, as it can sometimes just not work depending on Wellspring's 4th moveslot or if Ivy Cudgel decides to be a bastard and crit your offensive check Zamazenta or Dragapult or Kyurem or Raging Bolt, making them far less stable answers. With the matter of its 4th moveslot choice, the standard Play Rough you often see already cuts down the list of true answers alongside SD and its stab moves. But options like Knock Off, Encore and U-Turn all hamper this as well. Where this really gets to be dangerous is that Wellspring's speed makes it the kind of pokemon that is very dangerous to try scouting. You end up giving it potential to SD, and then are at the mercy of what move it picked last. Until that last move is revealed, you have to walk on eggshells around it and make risky plays even while also having those 2 checks to it.

it's rare for even broken mons we've banned in the past to "completely fry teams" when they're running specific checks or structures to answer them, and that's not really different for Wellspring. That's without considering how easy it can be for Wellspring to have its checks minimized and crippled or hampered by its teammates, which further complicates answering it.

Also just for the record, Pult is awesome and a top tier for these past two gens but it's nowhere near the greatest mon to ever touch OU. not by a longshot.

Speaking of Pult, does anyone think choice specs pult will ever resurface to relevance again? I remember it being spammed everywhere until people started using choice band and mixed boots variants more

 

[burstslinky]

To be clear, restrictiveness in teambuilding doesn't just mean "putting less viable pokemon on your team to check a big threat". It's also about the extent of how many resources you have to dedicate to answer pokemon and how this can affect gameplay and teambuilding. Wellspring demands on average for balance, 2 checks minimum which usually comes in the form of an offensive resist+bulky resist. The problem here comes in how circumstantial much of these structures can feel vs it, as it can sometimes just not work depending on Wellspring's 4th moveslot or if Ivy Cudgel decides to be a bastard and crit your offensive check Zamazenta or Dragapult or Kyurem or Raging Bolt, making them far less stable answers. With the matter of its 4th moveslot choice, the standard Play Rough you often see already cuts down the list of true answers alongside SD and its stab moves. But options like Knock Off, Encore and U-Turn all hamper this as well. Where this really gets to be dangerous is that Wellspring's speed makes it the kind of pokemon that is very dangerous to try scouting. You end up giving it potential to SD, and then are at the mercy of what move it picked last. Until that last move is revealed, you have to walk on eggshells around it and make risky plays even while also having those 2 checks to it.

it's rare for even broken mons we've banned in the past to "completely fry teams" when they're running specific checks or structures to answer them, and that's not really different for Wellspring. That's without considering how easy it can be for Wellspring to have its checks minimized and crippled or hampered by its teammates, which further complicates answering it.

Also just for the record, Pult is awesome and a top tier for these past two gens but it's nowhere near the greatest mon to ever touch OU. not by a longshot.

last part was an exaggeration, mainly because i love gen 8/9 and mainly play hc nuzlockes (fuck you runandbun, brawly can ****), but i do think its an actual god amongst mons.

i think that oger is not so broken to the point of banworthiness when its so crippled by any form of status and hazards, and also its great but not insane speed tier leaving it easy to rkill
oger is great at cleaning slightly weakened teams or forcing KOs, and its got a great set versatility regardless of the fact that you already know 2 of the moves on the set and a nigh upon mandatory grass move. you don't need a "true" answer/counter to it, and i think thats a terrible way of thinking compared to dealing with it using a myriad of different options. you can deal with it by burning it with any fast wisper (ace, pult), chipping it down with spikes and rocks, paralyze it etc
i think its a far more skill reliant mon to abuse than some of the menaces in the tier like Gambit or Zama or even Bolt
Now for the record I don't think Gambit should be banned, but I think if something as constraining as fucking gambit is still allowed in the tier, to the point where you need atleast 2-3 mons that can handle it on any team, who forces constant 50/50s every single match hes in

 

[Moyashi]

i think that oger is not so broken to the point of banworthiness when its so crippled by any form of status and hazards, and also its great but not insane speed tier leaving it easy to rkill
oger is great at cleaning slightly weakened teams or forcing KOs, and its got a great set versatility regardless of the fact that you already know 2 of the moves on the set and a nigh upon mandatory grass move. you don't need a "true" answer/counter to it, and i think thats a terrible way of thinking compared to dealing with it using a myriad of different options. you can deal with it by burning it with any fast wisper (ace, pult), chipping it down with spikes and rocks, paralyze it etc
i think its a far more skill reliant mon to abuse than some of the menaces in the tier like Gambit or Zama or even Bolt
Now for the record I don't think Gambit should be banned, but I think if something as constraining as fucking gambit is still allowed in the tier, to the point where you need atleast 2-3 mons that can handle it on any team, who forces constant 50/50s every single match hes in

Oger doesn't need teams weakened. It's a balance breaker. It's not meant to sweep necessarily (though teams not prepped for it are liable to get run over by it), and it can just budgeon teams without needing to set up. It's one of the strongest progress makers in the tier and because of how easily it forces switches, constantly generates progress with attacks, knock off, or even just u-turn and sometimes Spikes. You absolutely need some kind of hard answer to it, as short term answers on balance aren't gonna cut it well.

Status? Dragapult is often drawn in as it's used to offensively check it and thus takes high damage from it pretty often, only usually good for two at most in switch ins. Wellspring is not required to stay in on it and so burning it is not that easy. I'm not sure how you're burning it with Cinderace when it can't at all switch in unless being really risky on a predicted Power Whip (which still slams it for ridiculous damage as a resisted hit), plus the threat of knock off variants makes this unwise anyways. Not sure how you plan on paralyzing it reliably either outside Dragapult, the best options are physdef Glowking and Clefable but both have to trade most of their health if they want to attempt to do so, assuming it even stays in. Hazards are sure a way to limit it but well built Wellspring teams are good at limiting this issue so it can be as threatening as possible, and even in games where this isn't feasible, it doesn't always have to come in too many times.

I'm also not sure how Gambit is still getting mentioned in these kinds of discussions. Yeah it's contentious because of its strength and strong late game presence, but it has a fairly good list of offensive checks, solid defensive answers, and it itself actually contributes some really important role compression for teambuilding that helps alleviate things like cheese match ups and helping against offensive threats. Zamazenta? Not sure why you mentioned it. It has no shortage of solid checks here and is not problematic, and Raging Bolt isn't either.

 

[Vaporwavvve]

Asking once again if there is a real switch in to Tera ice Kyurem. It seems like every reasonable pokemon is 2hko’d.
I see people say to use the following answers:

Glowking:

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 202-238 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Kingambit:

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 169-199 (49.5 - 58.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

SpD Clef:

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 226-268 (57.3 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Spd Corv:

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Garganacl: 238-280 (58.9 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

SpD Gargancle:

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Garganacl: 256-303 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

DD is too uncomon to be an issue but it’s definitely something you have to watch for.
It’s pretty wild to me people are so chill with this Mon in the tier.

Even if you don’t think it’s broken because of hazards and it’s match up into offense, in conjunction with mons like Moon, Ogerpon, and Darkrai make the tier feel not super enjoyable right now.

 

[YubelVT]

I mean this completely unironically, removing Grimmsnarl from the metagame would actually make this fucking format fun despite all of the other problems. This goes the same for Ubers too. Any format with prankster screens on a pokemon that can take a hit is genuinely unfun bullshit

I lied actually this format fucking blows. Banning Grimmsnarl is still an objectively good decision though.

 

[LOOR]

I mean this completely unironically, removing Grimmsnarl from the metagame would actually make this fucking format fun despite all of the other problems. This goes the same for Ubers too. Any format with prankster screens on a pokemon that can take a hit is genuinely unfun bullshit

I lied actually this format fucking blows. Banning Grimmsnarl is still an objectively good decision though.

grimm doesnt even get a ton of usage bro what u on about?

even if grimm was good, banning it doesnt change any of the real issues

 

[YubelVT]

grimm doesnt even get a ton of usage bro what u on about?

me when I want even more matchup fishing in my tier that is exclusively matchup fishing

you people wouldn't know what a good format looked like if Gen 3 OU busted your door in and deleted your gen 9 teams

 

[LOOR]

me when I want even more matchup fishing in my tier that is exclusively matchup fishing

you people wouldn't know what a good format looked like if Gen 3 OU busted your door in and deleted your gen 9 teams

| 76 | Grimmsnarl | 2 | 0.52% | 50.00% |


grimmsnarls combined usage and winrate between spl and world cup qualifers.

again how does a mon with virtually 0 usage somehow manage to be the end all be all for the problems this tier faces in your head

 

[YubelVT]

| 76 | Grimmsnarl | 2 | 0.52% | 50.00% |


grimmsnarls combined usage and winrate between spl and world cup qualifers.

again how does a mon with virtually 0 usage somehow manage to be the end all be all for the problems this tier faces in your head

I don't give a single shit about high level best of 3 tournament usage when most play takes place in best of 1 on ladder. It's the same reason Ninjask needs to be banned in Gen 3 OU. SPL means nothing to me when the vast vast majority of people are experiencing this shitass format in a best of 1 environment.

Here's a novel idea: different banlist between ladder and best of 3 environments. People who complain can fucking cry about it because best of 1 is inherently different than best of 3 and there's a reason basically every official card game simulator other than pokemon has a different set of bans from paper play. I'm 100% serious.

Stop treating best of 1 and best of 3 environments like they are the same thing. They aren't. It's so shocking that the pokemon known for matchup fishing isn't actually good in a format where you have 3 games in a set to win (he said sarcastically). Fucking Ubers would also be a better tier if they banned Grimmsnarl. Less matchup fishing is inherently a good thing but I can almost guarantee that gen 9 OU is going to remain shit while it is the current gen because the mindset of the playerbase is something along the lines of "ladder play and tournament play are clearly the same environment so we can't have 2 different formats because they're the same!" You people are fucking stupid. Play Gen 3 OU and learn what a good format looks like.

 

[Arc]

I don't give a single shit about high level best of 3 tournament usage when most play takes place in best of 1 on ladder. It's the same reason Ninjask needs to be banned in Gen 3 OU. SPL means nothing to me when the vast vast majority of people are experiencing this shitass format in a best of 1 environment.

Here's a novel idea: different banlist between ladder and best of 3 environments. People who complain can fucking cry about it because best of 1 is inherently different than best of 3 and there's a reason basically every official card game simulator other than pokemon has a different set of bans from paper play. I'm 100% serious.

Stop treating best of 1 and best of 3 environments like they are the same thing. They aren't. It's so shocking that the pokemon known for matchup fishing isn't actually good in a format where you have 3 games in a set to win (he said sarcastically). Fucking Ubers would also be a better tier if they banned Grimmsnarl. Less matchup fishing is inherently a good thing but I can almost guarantee that gen 9 OU is going to remain shit while it is the current gen because the mindset of the playerbase is something along the lines of "ladder play and tournament play are clearly the same environment so we can't have 2 different formats because they're the same!" You people are fucking stupid. Play Gen 3 OU and learn what a good format looks like.

spl wcop all high level team tours are bo1 bro

 

[Heatranator]

I don't give a single shit about high level best of 3 tournament usage when most play takes place in best of 1 on ladder. It's the same reason Ninjask needs to be banned in Gen 3 OU. SPL means nothing to me when the vast vast majority of people are experiencing this shitass format in a best of 1 environment.

Here's a novel idea: different banlist between ladder and best of 3 environments. People who complain can fucking cry about it because best of 1 is inherently different than best of 3 and there's a reason basically every official card game simulator other than pokemon has a different set of bans from paper play. I'm 100% serious.

Stop treating best of 1 and best of 3 environments like they are the same thing. They aren't. It's so shocking that the pokemon known for matchup fishing isn't actually good in a format where you have 3 games in a set to win (he said sarcastically). Fucking Ubers would also be a better tier if they banned Grimmsnarl. Less matchup fishing is inherently a good thing but I can almost guarantee that gen 9 OU is going to remain shit while it is the current gen because the mindset of the playerbase is something along the lines of "ladder play and tournament play are clearly the same environment so we can't have 2 different formats because they're the same!" You people are fucking stupid. Play Gen 3 OU and learn what a good format looks like.

Why the hell are you getting so aggresive over this? Like, grimmsnarl is a pain in the ass to fight, yes, but if we banned things on how annoying they are to fight, so many things would be banned that you would be left with nu/pu mons only.
Yes, ladder play and tournament play are different, nobody's going to try to deny that. Grimmsnarl on ladder is sitting at 0.85% usage, nowhere near enough for most people to even consider it (yes, usage does not equal viability/banworthiness, but for this point something so extremely low it doesn't even crack 1% usage it makes more sense). So even that point about different banlists isn't even up to snuff for this. And let me tell you the banlist for each different format would be, at best, 1-3 different mons banned.
I love Gen 3, but don't preach like its perfect, it has its flaws. Insulting the people who play this format ain't going to convince people about your ideas.

 

[LOOR]

I don't give a single shit about high level best of 3 tournament usage when most play takes place in best of 1 on ladder. It's the same reason Ninjask needs to be banned in Gen 3 OU. SPL means nothing to me when the vast vast majority of people are experiencing this shitass format in a best of 1 environment.

Here's a novel idea: different banlist between ladder and best of 3 environments. People who complain can fucking cry about it because best of 1 is inherently different than best of 3 and there's a reason basically every official card game simulator other than pokemon has a different set of bans from paper play. I'm 100% serious.

Stop treating best of 1 and best of 3 environments like they are the same thing. They aren't. It's so shocking that the pokemon known for matchup fishing isn't actually good in a format where you have 3 games in a set to win (he said sarcastically). Fucking Ubers would also be a better tier if they banned Grimmsnarl. Less matchup fishing is inherently a good thing but I can almost guarantee that gen 9 OU is going to remain shit while it is the current gen because the mindset of the playerbase is something along the lines of "ladder play and tournament play are clearly the same environment so we can't have 2 different formats because they're the same!" You people are fucking stupid. Play Gen 3 OU and learn what a good format looks like.

coping over a game that happened in 1300s in the metagame thread and thinking its indicative of the current tier is pretty ridiculous bro, like come on have a bit more self awareness than this.

grimms usage according to pikalytics over all ratings on the OU ladder. I don't even think the tier is in a good spot right now but thinking grimmsnarl is the huge problem the tier just shows a overall lack of experience.

heres a novel idea: if you like gen3 so much better, go play it, its a good tier, nobody stopping you. play what you enjoy and dont waste your time if this is how youre going to react.

 

[658Greninja]

How is Grimmsnarl, a mon that sees almost no usage and is outclassed by Alolatales even comparable to something like Ogerpon?

I normally don’t say this, but this is a skill issue.

 

[YubelVT]

coping over a game that happened in 1300s in the metagame thread and thinking its indicative of the current tier is pretty ridiculous bro

grimms usage according to pikalytics over all ratings on the OU ladder. I don't even think the tier is in a good spot right now but thinking grimmsnarl is the huge problem the tier just shows a overall lack of experience.

heres a novel idea: if you like gen3 so much better, go play it, nobody stopping you. play what you enjoy and dont waste your time.

me when I both miss the point and only play tournaments: "Damn bro ur coping over low ladder"
Banning grimmsnarl is only an improvement to ltierally any format that the ban happens in. Less matchup fishing is only ever a good thing for any tier. It would only benefit your side as well because it would mean less random bullshit and more skill. There is zero downside to banning Grimmsnarl. See also: Gen 3 Ninjask

Also the thing you said earlier about grimmsnarl not seeing use in tournament is one of the least surprising things I've ever heard. You mean to tell me that a pokemon known almost exclusively for OU matchup fishing on ladder is... bad in tournament? This is shocking to me somehow

How is Grimmsnarl, a mon that sees almost no usage and is outclassed by Alolatales even comparable to something like Ogerpon?

I normally don’t say this, but this is a skill issue.

Ogerpon is the 5th best pokemon that needs to be taken out back and shot for this format to become remotely playable.

1. Kingambit
2. Kingambit's Electric Uncle
3. Gholdengo
4. Roaring Spoon
5. Ogerpon

 

[Moyashi]

I don't give a single shit about high level best of 3 tournament usage when most play takes place in best of 1 on ladder. It's the same reason Ninjask needs to be banned in Gen 3 OU. SPL means nothing to me when the vast vast majority of people are experiencing this shitass format in a best of 1 environment.

Dude, Baloor is just trying to point out out Grimm isn't really relevant at all and bringing stats to back it up. You're getting needlessly hostile and rude. Furthermore, your Ninjask comparison is as poor as is it is uninformed. It wasn't even directly banned, just contributed to bans related to BP. You know a playstyle that has a reputation for popping up and stirring up issues because of their nature.

Also prettyyy sure stuff like SPL, WCOP and the like ARE Bo1 so this just seems silly.

Stop treating best of 1 and best of 3 environments like they are the same thing. They aren't. It's so shocking that the pokemon known for matchup fishing isn't actually good in a format where you have 3 games in a set to win (he said sarcastically). Fucking Ubers would also be a better tier if they banned Grimmsnarl. Less matchup fishing is inherently a good thing but I can almost guarantee that gen 9 OU is going to remain shit while it is the current gen because the mindset of the playerbase is something along the lines of "ladder play and tournament play are clearly the same environment so we can't have 2 different formats because they're the same!" You people are fucking stupid. Play Gen 3 OU and learn what a good format looks like.

Grimmsnarl isn't good even in Bo1 settings, at least not at this point, and the reason is because it's such an abusable pokemon and isn't even good at setting tempo like other HO leads are. It barely gets used anywhere on ladder let alone in tournaments. You have no real basis for throwing this borderline tantrum out when the mon sees no success and really doesn't get complained about. Any halfway decent team shouldn't at all struggle with Grimm teams. It's not even a good match up fish. This tier isn't in a great spot quite yet, but Grimm has absolutely 0 to do with any issues present. It, and I don't say this to be mean, sounds like a skill issue if you're having problems with it.

Also seriously? Chill with the insults. There's zero need for that kind of toxicity. If you're that bothered, step away from the game and do something you enjoy instead.

me when I both miss the point and only play tournaments: "Damn bro ur coping over low ladder"
Banning grimmsnarl is only an improvement to ltierally any format that the ban happens in. Less matchup fishing is only ever a good thing for any tier. It would only benefit your side as well because it would mean less random bullshit and more skill. There is zero downside to banning Grimmsnarl. See also: Gen 3 Ninjask

Also the thing you said earlier about grimmsnarl not seeing use in tournament is one of the least surprising things I've ever heard. You mean to tell me that a pokemon known almost exclusively for OU matchup fishing on ladder is... bad in tournament? This is shocking to me somehow

Caught this at the end, but I'll add it on anyways. Grimm isn't even known for match up fishing. It's just known to be a generally poor pokemon.

 

[dex]

I don't give a single shit about high level best of 3 tournament usage when most play takes place in best of 1 on ladder.

That usage statistic was taken from WCOP and SPL, both of which utilize Best of 1s. You should look into the tournament resources and scene a bit more to learn about general sentiment towards competitive trends as well as the current formats and how they are played.

 

[Rekka's Backend]

There is zero downside to banning Grimmsnarl.

I'm gonna level with you and say there's no real upside either. Alola Ninetails does what it does in one turn and with even less downside. In my grand total of last twenty 1600 games I haven't seen a single Grimsnarl--and if they did, I just played around it in the exact same way I'd play against a Ninetails. Except even easier, cuz I just click "typhon cutter" and watch it disappear before it gets to have another screen up.

I'm sure if you find it personally distasteful or annoying that's fine, but you appear to be incredibly abrasive over what is, ultimately, a low radar pokemon. Surely stepping away to introspect about your point or view and laying it out in a more level handed manner would be beneficial to you, no?

Boy this thread got grim really quick.

Dare I say we're snarling at this point