Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[Saadhak]

Você precisaria ser um orador e streamer de classe mundial, ter métodos de controle mental para usar contra o Caos e o Conselho de OU ou ser o primeiro a descobrir novos argumentos a favor de um banimento.

As duas últimas pesquisas mostraram um apoio constante de 25% à ação, então você precisará convencer muitos jogadores que atualmente não veem isso como um problema.
[/CITAR]
não há muito o que fazer

 

[dunderguy]

adding onto the kyurem discussion, genuine question has kyurem spawned any new techs or sets for mons OTHER than itself to check it?i know AV crown exist and its one of my favs to use but i genuinely think thats it, like i guess you can say AV glowking but im not sure if that ones too viable unless you can get hazards off EVERY time before it comes in, would love to get examples though

ive tried iron press bronzong w psychic noise and either sr/heavy slam but i doubt its that good

can be good w wish mola tho

 

[tommytt22]

252+ Atk Metal Coat Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 284-336 (72.6 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 354-416 (90.5 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

kyurem comes in on lando uturn then disappears next turn. just sayin

 

[Vaporwavvve]

yeah this perfectly captures how I feel about the meta. I know Finch was posting about how much more balanced it is, but it feels like it will be 3 months until it’s enjoyable if bans occur. I think the issue was too many powerful mons (Darkrai, Moon, Kyurem) were allowed into the tier during DLC2.

Man I was really close. I could enjoy this meta, I thought. But I am legitimately out of gas. After falling out of the 1900s, I thought I could bounce back again. If the meta adapts to me I will just adapt back. A few losses are just setbacks. Build new teams and strategies maybe incorperate some of the opponents cores into my style or try unothodox strategies like fairy blast rotom to lure in dragons. I briefly went back only to fall again. Since then I just couldnt climb back. I cant even beat players from the 1500s anymore, it is that bad.

I dunno, maybe I am truly talentless at this game or I am not in the right state of mind. There is no way that a player of 1900s caliber should ever lose to someone below 1600s this much so my run was simply a fluke. It is absolutely insane how fast the meta adapts though.


One thing I wanna say is, I absolutely HATE how many resources a lot of prominent mons require to beat. I am gonna name Kyurem for example since it is one of the mons that is a suspect candidate in many peoples eyes. If specs would be its only set, it would be fine. It's moves can be scouted with bulky walls like Slowking or bulky balloon resists like Gambit and then you go from there. But this thing has various sets that can be outright game ending. DD tera blast sets, DD mixed, DD-sub, Boots 4 attack and there is still more. These sets have different counters and checks. Guessing wrong will net you a dead mon at best and end the game at worst, with the one dead mon also being potentially game changing. Not to mention all these sets can be run on many different teams

Counters and Checks usually have the trait of having favorable typing against mons they check or counter but Kyurem can blow past water types with freeze dry and fire+steels with earth power on top of having high bst, verstality and the ability to end games on the wrong scout. Pair him up with a mon that also exerts huge pressure like Ogerpon, Gambit, Gouging ect... and then good luck. Kyurem is certainly not the only one like that of course.

I also highly dislike Zamas presence, he has many of Kyurem's traits above listed with high bst, a lot of viable set variance(ID-press alone has a lot variations like roar(to stop tera ghost setups), crunch for ghosts, rest, heavy slam for fairies,edge for the birds and more dangerously sub to block status and set up on passive mons. Even the evs you set can be extremely customizable with some running less speed and more def to hit harder on the spot and others investing in spdef bulk which it can tank suprisingly nicely for a "physical" mon.

There is also band and boots attacker set that can catch mons offguard. Like banded crunch can open up Slowking for the likes of valiant and bolt.

And true it wont sweep fatter teams but it can still put pressure on a lot of builds and even punch holes for other teammates. Not to mention it so goddamm fast for how bulky it is, how hard it hits and the potential to end games too. If you don't have bulky ghosts or dragapult on your team you will probably need atleast 2 mons to deal with this mon. Which is I guess is fine for a lot of people and honestly probably nothing special in a way. Who knows, with the rise of Sinistcha maybe things are adapting to it. But Zama will probably adapt back.


Lastly I wanna apologize if it comes across as "doomerpostin". I had to let out some of my negativity and grievances somewhere and it sure as hell shouldn't be towards my opponent so I hope you can forgive me. The points above might just be salt fueled and my own frustration at myself at not being able to adapt when I felt like I could before. I admit, I am a bad player so hopefully I can make peace with that now.

I know people will tell me I can quit the game and play sth else if I don't enjoy it and to be honest,, FAIR. Mons has been the game I love for years but it is not like the only game out there. Cheers.

 

[lesbiangunshow]

I know action on tera has been discussed to death, but are there any real arguments against just showing tera in team preview? I think its possible that the weak support for action on tera is because this hasn't been foregrounded as a main possible action in a survey.

VGC seems to enjoy it, and itd maintain the majority of the skill expression and adds some on top, eg if you know an opponent's tera you can try bait it out to waste it.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I know action on tera has been discussed to death, but are there any real arguments against just showing tera in team preview? I think its possible that the weak support for action on tera is because this hasn't been foregrounded as a main possible action in a survey.

VGC seems to enjoy it, and itd maintain the majority of the skill expression and adds some on top, eg if you know an opponent's tera you can try bait it out to waste it.

We already discussed this, and in practice it doesn't really work for singles

 

[Tio Chico]

I know action on tera has been discussed to death, but are there any real arguments against just showing tera in team preview? I think its possible that the weak support for action on tera is because this hasn't been foregrounded as a main possible action in a survey.

VGC seems to enjoy it, and itd maintain the majority of the skill expression and adds some on top, eg if you know an opponent's tera you can try bait it out to waste it.

I am an anti-Tera player but I am even more against Tera Preview, some of my reasons;
1- It mischaracterizes the essence of the mechanics, even if the game itself (Game Freak) is designed for doubles. It's the essence of the generational mechanics that so many want to protect, keeping something bad but "original" is better than keeping something bad and artificially nerfed.
2- Telegraph, give information about your team structure to the opponent. For example, Tera Dark Iron Valiant practically confirms a physical set with SD and Knock Off. Tera Ghost Iron Moth makes it effortless or necessary for you to avoid using Dragonite Extreme Speed as a Revenge Kill or Blissey as a defensive response. Unmasks offensive Tera Blast lures, reveals possible Spin-Block and exposes your team's weakness to a given threat; If your Water-type is Tera Grass or Dragon then you know you can exploit their vulnerabilities with Waterpon. If your Garganacl is Tera Water and not Fairy, then the chance of it being the answer to Gholdengo is much higher.
Reveals defensive lures like Tera Fairy Ursaluna for a matchup vs Raging Bolt, etc...
3- Increases the 50/50 even more: You know which Tera-type your opponent can or cannot use, and try to apply super effective on it, so your opponent can or cannot use Terastal.

 

[lesbiangunshow]

I am an anti-Tera player but I am even more against Tera Preview, some of my reasons;
1- It mischaracterizes the essence of the mechanics, even if the game itself (Game Freak) is designed for doubles. It's the essence of the generational mechanics that so many want to protect, keeping something bad but "original" is better than keeping something bad and artificially nerfed.
2- Telegraph, give information about your team structure to the opponent. For example, Tera Dark Iron Valiant practically confirms a physical set with SD and Knock Off. Tera Ghost Iron Moth makes it effortless or necessary for you to avoid using Dragonite Extreme Speed as a Revenge Kill or Blissey as a defensive response. Unmasks offensive Tera Blast lures, reveals possible Spin-Block and exposes your team's weakness to a given threat; If your Water-type is Tera Grass or Dragon then you know you can exploit their vulnerabilities with Waterpon. If your Garganacl is Tera Water and not Fairy, then the chance of it being the answer to Gholdengo is much higher.
Reveals defensive lures like Tera Fairy Ursaluna for a matchup vs Raging Bolt, etc...
3- Increases the 50/50 even more: You know which Tera-type your opponent can or cannot use, and try to apply super effective on it, so your opponent can or cannot use Terastal.

Thank you for the detailed summary, more thank enough to convince me against it :p

 

[Finchinator]

Tera Preview is the worst possibility of all. It should be a non-starter.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Tera Preview is the worst possibility of all. It should be a non-starter.

tera preview is bad and shouldn't be considered at all (i say this as a former supporter of it), but the worst possibility of all? let's see some of the other options that have been proposed:

• stab only tera
• only mons with two 4x weaknesses can tera
• "terastal nickname clause"
• banning tera from only ou mons
• complex-banning tera + setup
• all four of these options
• only letting the last remaining mon on a team use tera

and that's only in the first dozen or so pages of the first tera discussion thread; i'm sure there are even dumber ones later on. people had some absolutely rancid suggestions back in the day. i swear i remember someone suggesting that we only allow tera on certain days of the week. now, some people might have better opinions on some of these than others, but i think most people will find at least one that they hate more than tera preview

 

[Finchinator]

I could request world peace and someone would find a way to nitpick it in this thread holy shit

 

[Finchinator]

The point is that it’s a bad option of all possibilities that could be considered. None of those other options are within the realm of possibilities either due to being silly or getting no support during the original suspect.

Of anything that ever received noteworthy support, Tera preview is the worst option. This is what I mean. And you agree with it given the start of your post. We don’t need to nitpick every last word. I promise.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

The point is that it’s a bad option of all possibilities that could be considered. None of those other options are within the realm of possibilities either due to being silly or getting no support during the original suspect.

Of anything that ever received noteworthy support, Tera preview is the worst option. This is what I mean. And you agree with it given the start of your post. We don’t need to nitpick every last word. I promise.

sorry for nitpicking, i just can't resist the opportunity to dunk on the "only uu mons and below can tera" proposal. i only stopped lurking and made an account after the tera suspect so i didn't have the opportunity to make fun of it back when people were suggesting it

 

[Vileman]

sorry for nitpicking, i just can't resist the opportunity to dunk on the "only uu mons and below can tera" proposal

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I could request world peace and someone would find a way to nitpick it in this thread holy shit

world peace?! do you have any idea how many industries that would disrupt? no new technology would ever get made! entire economies would collapse overnight because of the decrease in military spending!!! millions would starve!!!!! how dare you propose such a horrible thing. think of the children, finch

(i have to point out that this is sarcasm because otherwise people would take this out of context and try to smear me with it. you know who you are)

 

[BobbyHill]

Finchinator are quickbans off the table for the rest of the meta? After trying to play boots spam at like 1600-1700ish (I know I’m shit). I find that a lot of most broken Mons in the tier require the same checks with different sets. for example You often cite sticky barb Clef as an answer to Moon, but SpD clef is necessary for Darkrai (Ting Lu really does not last long against it) This is the same for Kyurem where you need more than one pokemon in order to attempt to check it if you’re not running AV Glowking/Iron Crown. Waterpon is a bit more individual, but can overlap with Zama (Sinistcha) allowing it to overwhelm walls. This is before you have to fit speed control, priority, resists/immunities, etc

 

[Finchinator]

Finchinator are quickbans off the table for the rest of the meta? After trying to play boots spam at like 1600-1700ish (I know I’m shit). I find that a lot of most broken Mons in the tier require the same checks with different sets. for example You often cite sticky barb Clef as an answer to Moon, but SpD clef is necessary for Darkrai (Ting Lu really does not last long against it) This is the same for Kyurem where you need more than one pokemon in order to attempt to check it if you’re not running AV Glowking/Iron Crown. Waterpon is a bit more individual, but can overlap with Zama (Sinistcha) allowing it to overwhelm walls. This is before you have to fit speed control, priority, resists/immunities, etc

There’s hardly ever reason to use SDef Clefable right now, and it’s not close to a Darkrai check considering how common Tera Poison is and the fact that Moonblast doesn’t OHKO. I think most boots spam teams like using Zama as speed control or having a few Darkrai soft checks + an RKerz

No, I don’t think quickbans are likely. They’re not off the table if something extreme happens though.

I feel there are 2-3 suspect worthy Pokemon right now and your post kinda touches on a few of them, so keep your eyes opened for that.

And before people say “oh but it won’t get banned over a suspect” — then crying for a quickban is especially silly as that is circumventing the community when quickbans are only meant for extreme cases, not that. I’m not saying you’re crying for one, but just using this as a general example. Your posts are always genuine and I appreciate your tone.

I actually think with some time and the right process, suspects will be productive if needed. The Volcarona one and many prior being good examples.

 

[BobbyHill]

There’s hardly ever reason to use SDef Clefable right now, and it’s not close to a Darkrai check considering how common Tera Poison is and the fact that Moonblast doesn’t OHKO. I think most boots spam teams like using Zama as speed control or having a few Darkrai soft checks + an RKerz

No, I don’t think quickbans are likely. They’re not off the table if something extreme happens though.

I feel there are 2-3 suspect worthy Pokemon right now and your post kinda touches on a few of them, so keep your eyes opened for that.

And before people say “oh but it won’t get banned over a suspect” — then crying for a quickban is especially silly as that is circumventing the community when quickbans are only meant for extreme cases, not that. I’m not saying you’re crying for one, but just using this as a general example. Your posts are always genuine and I appreciate your tone.

I actually think with some time and the right process, suspects will be productive if needed. The Volcarona one and many prior being good examples.

For sure. I think the Gouging Suspect is a example of “wait and see”, I rarely see it now. I just notice the continuous threat saturation complaints and was wondering if you guys would want to use quick bans to clean that up more quickly. I also think that not all the mons I mentioned are necessarily ban worthy as removing one could allow teams to allocate more resources towards others, etc.

 

[Vileman]

world peace?! do you have any idea how many industries that would disrupt? no new technology would ever get made! entire economies would collapse overnight because of the decrease in military spending!!! millions would starve!!!!! how dare you propose such a horrible thing. think of the children, finch

(i have to point out that this is sarcasm because otherwise people would take this out of context and try to smear me with it. you know who you are)

Dude
Stop posting

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

as long as we're on the subject of future tiering action, i personally think the most banworthy thing in the tier is kyurem, but the thing that should be tested next is waterpon. kyurem is broken by merit of its sheer combination of strength, bulk, and versatility, and it's uncompetitive to boot because of its ability to use freeze-fishing as an effective strategy, which no other good mon can actively do (except for maybe serene grace blissey, which is a very niche option). but if we were to suspect it right now, it probably wouldn't pass because people would go "uh but we need it to deal with waterpon and gliscor" just like last suspect when people went "uh but we need it to deal with rain". too many people would still fall into the trap of "if a broken thing has any sort of defensive value or checks another broken thing then we should keep it". waterpon is the next biggest problem and much more likely to get banned at this juncture because there isn't a massive immediate problem that she checks (no, primarina and alomomola are not problems). if waterpon ends up going, the arguments against a kyurem ban will be significantly weaker, so that's probably the only way to get them both gone. as for other things, i still think roaring moon is stupid, i very much dislike how often raging bolt is forcing thunderclap 50/50s, i'm not clamoring for a ban on dragapult but i sure as hell wouldn't miss it, i'm not sold on gliscor or darkrai yet but i think we definitely need to keep an eye on them, and i'm still not convinced that a meta with ghold or gambit can possibly be healthy or balanced, but all of those discussions can wait until waterpon and kyurem are dealt with

Dude
Stop posting

don't you have a wcop team to be captaining instead of making one-liners on the ou discussion thread?

 

[Avira]

DaddyBuzzwole, you forget that Kyurem missed being banned by 2% during its last suspect test, and now Archaludon and Volcarona, two soft checks to it, are gone, so we have less counterplay to it than before.

I want to know what you're smoking in thinking people want a Gliscor ban before a Kyurem ban as I don't believe that's actually representative of the playerbase and not a reason it will end up not banned should we get a DNB verdict.

There is actually quite a sizable number of players who will vote DNB for an Ogerpon-Wellspring suspect, and I don't think there's any guarantee a suspect of Waterpon will go the way you think it well. In fact, I do believe Kyurem is more likely to go than Wellspring if either of them were to be suspected.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

DaddyBuzzwole, you forget that Kyurem missed being banned by 2% during its last suspect test, and now Archaludon and Volcarona, two soft checks to it, are gone.

I want to know what you're smoking in thinking people want a Gliscor ban before a Kyurem ban as I don't believe that's actually reoresentative of the playerbase.

There is actually quite a sizable number of players who will vote DNB for an Ogerpon-Wellspring suspect, and I don't think there's any guarantee a suspect of Waterpon will go the way you think it well. In fact, I do believe Kyurem is more likely to go than Wellspring if either of them were to be suspected.

i don't think people want a gliscor ban before a kyurem ban, i'm not stupid. i just know for a fact that gliscor will come up as an argument a lot in the kyurem suspect thread when it shouldn't. and i've seen way more anti-waterpon sentiment recently than i have anti-kyurem sentiment. a small handful people are even saying kyurem is mid or washed, while i haven't seen anyone even try to make that argument for waterpon

 

[658Greninja]

as long as we're on the subject of future tiering action, i personally think the most banworthy thing in the tier is kyurem, but the thing that should be tested next is waterpon. kyurem is broken by merit of its sheer combination of strength, bulk, and versatility, and it's uncompetitive to boot because of its ability to use freeze-fishing as an effective strategy, which no other good mon can actively do (except for maybe serene grace blissey, which is a very niche option). but if we were to suspect it right now, it probably wouldn't pass because people would go "uh but we need it to deal with waterpon and gliscor" just like last suspect when people went "uh but we need it to deal with rain". too many people would still fall into the trap of "if a broken thing has any sort of defensive value or checks another broken thing then we should keep it". waterpon is the next biggest problem and much more likely to get banned at this juncture because there isn't a massive immediate problem that she checks (no, primarina and alomomola are not problems). if waterpon ends up going, the arguments against a kyurem ban will be significantly weaker, so that's probably the only way to get them both gone. as for other things, i still think roaring moon is stupid, i very much dislike how often raging bolt is forcing thunderclap 50/50s, i'm not clamoring for a ban on dragapult but i sure as hell wouldn't miss it, i'm not sold on gliscor or darkrai yet but i think we definitely need to keep an eye on them, and i'm still not convinced that a meta with ghold or gambit can possibly be healthy or balanced, but all of those discussions can wait until waterpon and kyurem are dealt with

don't you have a wcop team to be captaining instead of making one-liners on the ou discussion thread?

Ironically the defensive value Wogre provides makes it more broken than Kyurem since it has more switch-in opportunities while outputting nearly the same amount of damage, especially with Tera. Kyurem is coming in via slow pivots, doubles, or weak hits and hates rocks if it’s not Boots. Specs Kyurem might output more damage, but Wogre is coming in more often, doing more in the progress.

 

[Roshino]

Ironically the defensive value Wogre provides makes it more broken than Kyurem since it has more switch-in opportunities while outputting nearly the same amount of damage, especially with Tera. Kyurem is coming in via slow pivots, doubles, or weak hits and hates rocks if it’s not Boots. Specs Kyurem might output more damage, but Wogre is coming in more often, doing more in the progress.

Hmmm I think Freeze Dry and mixed sets tilt the balance the other way (even if just to balance those two). Wogerpon can still get blanked and/or severely delayed by some dedicated phys walls (well, Ivy Cudgel crit% is a thing but lmao). Kyurem can and most likely will break past checks. It hits the field much less often, but when it does it is much more difficult to hold it down, be through sheer coverage, or DD +1 speed denying revenge-killing threatening full sweeps. Wogerpon can absolutely hit the field more often, but given the info above I'm 100% sure Kyurem is much more devastating when it manages to hit the field.

 

[BradenBmw]

Im of the opinion that kyurem is more oppressive than waterpon but truthfully it could go either way, and totally fair for someone to think the opposite.