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- Thread starter Yung Dramps
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Disease / terminal illness isn't even that bad. Skill issue.
I totally agree, I played SV and had so much fun, so it sure is not as great as legends Arceus but it comes close. SV's scenario really isn't that bad, and same thing goes for SS imo, but I understand thatpeople dislike being witness of the evens instead of being the cause of the events. in recent games, everything is planned since the beginning, we are a tool used by greater forces, which is not the case in older games, or at least it doesn't feel like it. but Pokemo legends areus is slightly better imo
Smash Ultimate is honestly not a good game
It has the absolute worst buffering system any mainstream fighting game of the last 10-15 years had. Every movement you take feels kinda wrong and the game just isn't responsive with the buffering system and pretty wild input lag. It's like, what, 6 frames? It always feels like you're kinda playing against the game, not against you opp
The cast is huge but what's the point if the majority is poorly designed. Sonic is incomplete since Brawl, Steve is an unbalanced mess, Fox is neutral air the character, Young Link and the Belmonts are just projectile spamming... Like the majority of the cast is just poorly designed. And the game allows with characters like Min-Min or Mr. G&W to just lay back and annoy your opponent as much as possible. It's a game that straight up encourages to make it as unfun and annoying for your opponent as somehow possible. In Pokemon terms, it's as if PP stalling was the by far most valuable playstyle
And the single player is AWFUL. It feels genuinenly unfinished. World of Light is soooo repetitive, boring and doesn't in any way match Brawl's Subspace Emissary. The Classis Mode is really boring, it's the same bonus stage every time and the vast majority of bosses are just Master Hand. There's no Destroy the Targets which is a shame. All-Star Mode stinks
Movement's the most restricted it ever has been. The overall game speed is fast, but it feels slow because of how restricted it all is. No wavedashing, dash dancing stinks, no perfect pivoting, nothing like that
And there's so much small stuff. The vast majority of stages are super overdesigned, the UI is very inconsistent, final smashes suck now, I hate how explosions don't hurt yourself now, the music selection has some really weird omissions and isn't fighting music for the majority (why is so much of the soundtrack relaxing and peaceful, it's a fighting game man)...
Idk know man. I think it's awful for casual play because of the awful modes, the non-functional online and some small changes that make playing with your friends just worse than Brawl, PM, Melee or 64. It's not fun to watch when all you see are characters like G&W or Steve that basically don't interact with the game and I cannot imagine how awful it must be to play it competetively
Ok it's better than Smash 4 but that doesn't mean much. In fact, I think the 3DS version of 4 is prolly better, because of Smash Run
If you like it, that's great, I can see why. But I think it's another one of a long line of modern Nintendo games that were massively scope crept and have baffling gamedesign decisions that ruin the game
It has the absolute worst buffering system any mainstream fighting game of the last 10-15 years had. Every movement you take feels kinda wrong and the game just isn't responsive with the buffering system and pretty wild input lag. It's like, what, 6 frames? It always feels like you're kinda playing against the game, not against you opp
The cast is huge but what's the point if the majority is poorly designed. Sonic is incomplete since Brawl, Steve is an unbalanced mess, Fox is neutral air the character, Young Link and the Belmonts are just projectile spamming... Like the majority of the cast is just poorly designed. And the game allows with characters like Min-Min or Mr. G&W to just lay back and annoy your opponent as much as possible. It's a game that straight up encourages to make it as unfun and annoying for your opponent as somehow possible. In Pokemon terms, it's as if PP stalling was the by far most valuable playstyle
And the single player is AWFUL. It feels genuinenly unfinished. World of Light is soooo repetitive, boring and doesn't in any way match Brawl's Subspace Emissary. The Classis Mode is really boring, it's the same bonus stage every time and the vast majority of bosses are just Master Hand. There's no Destroy the Targets which is a shame. All-Star Mode stinks
Movement's the most restricted it ever has been. The overall game speed is fast, but it feels slow because of how restricted it all is. No wavedashing, dash dancing stinks, no perfect pivoting, nothing like that
And there's so much small stuff. The vast majority of stages are super overdesigned, the UI is very inconsistent, final smashes suck now, I hate how explosions don't hurt yourself now, the music selection has some really weird omissions and isn't fighting music for the majority (why is so much of the soundtrack relaxing and peaceful, it's a fighting game man)...
Idk know man. I think it's awful for casual play because of the awful modes, the non-functional online and some small changes that make playing with your friends just worse than Brawl, PM, Melee or 64. It's not fun to watch when all you see are characters like G&W or Steve that basically don't interact with the game and I cannot imagine how awful it must be to play it competetively
Ok it's better than Smash 4 but that doesn't mean much. In fact, I think the 3DS version of 4 is prolly better, because of Smash Run
If you like it, that's great, I can see why. But I think it's another one of a long line of modern Nintendo games that were massively scope crept and have baffling gamedesign decisions that ruin the game
as someone who does play competitively (local level) i think these complaints are like 70% correct. i hard agree that there's way too many characters who are really annoying and non interactive, hit the nail on the head here imo, a lot of dubious designs. but some of the interpretations aren't correct, and "pp stalling is by far most valuable" is an exaggeration. something that's really important in the game is punishes, how much one can gain from one neutral interaction win, which motivates a lot of defensive play you see. kinda like fencing ig. im still not a huge fan of punish importance though. also yink and simon arent just projectile guys - they both have excellent normals kits that complement their projectiles, yink making him strong up close and at a distance (but less at midrange) and simon making him strong at a distance and midrange (but less up close). fox is pretty far off from 'nair the char', if anyone that's ridley, but still exaggerative even for him, and especially for fox, who depends on his fast ground speed and combo options (especially a combo burst punish option in dash attack) to pose a threat. something people don't realize a lot, i think, is how vulnerable you are in the air this game - being in the air restricts the options at your disposal, and landings get challenged. notice how characters that rely on aerial pressure with weaker ground mobility or options, like ike and palutena, continue to fall off.
mixed opinions on the other stuff. for example: i feel like same classic mode bonus stage every time is not a big deal, like there's 7? other stages. all star is rough yeah. stage builder adds a ton to the game because people can make some awesome stuff...... but they have to fight against the really frustrating stage builder interface, where simple stuff like copying and pasting or making battlefield platforms is literally impossible. ledges and platforms are notorious issues - just lost a casual game yesterday because i assumed my opponent's air dodge missed ledge, so i accepted an sd to avoid accidentally saving them with my recovery, but Custom Stage Moment and my opponent magnet hands'd to the custom stage ledge. OOPS! it was pretty funny in casuals, but stuff like this makes custom stages really inoperable for competitive capacity, even at the level of locals oftentimes, which is pretty sad and a wasted opportunity imo. movement got some stuff - slingshots, rosalina cancels, teleport cancels, aura sphere movement come to mind - but it's not my area of expertise. smash run is like good i think but definitely not enough to make those 3ds controls and worse design philosophy subsume smash's higher overall content for me, i think wol is better tbh, a huge volume of okay content can still go a long way.
first of all, Steve is really fun to watch, and Im tired of pretending he's not. the combos and creative plays are so fun to watch. second of all, the buffering system is not really a problem in my experience. and WOL is arguably the best campaign of any smash game. what it lacks in story compared to brawl, it makes up for in gameplay. and it has a far superior final boss. frankly, the bosses in the game are just really fun. the single player experience can litterally just be facing the computer, and it is still a ton of fun. as for the poorly designed character part, you are exaggerating. projectile spamming is not mindless, and young link is far more that projectile spamming. figuring out how to get in on zoners is an important part of the game, and just because you don't like it doesn't mean others don't. movement is still very fast, and just because you put 1000 hours into melee doesn't mean you can call it slow. the soundtrack is fantastic, and has some incredible bangers in it. and the overcentralization is nothing compared to every single other smash game. there is a single unviable character in the entire game, and you can win with literally every other one. and you failed to mention how it is worse in casual play. smash ultimate is by far the best smash game, and a fantastic fighting game.
It's just fight after fight after fight after fight... for like 15-20 hours. It's noteworthy that the fight that is the best remembered by people who played WOL is the Pauline fight, because it was so annoying. Why is there even an opening sequence, when there's not a single cutscene after that. Not even an ending sequence. It's just a huge game, they could've just not programmed some of the most complex and overdesigned characters in fighting game history and instead just make 2-3 5 hour campaigns that have the characters interact, similarily to Supspace Emissary. They could've also honestly just ported Smash Run and expanded on it. That would've been so much better than WOL
yeah but it's restricted. We have slingshot now but it's still the most restricted movement of any Smash game ever. I think speed in a fighting game needs to go hand in hand with movement freedom, otherwise, you can't do much with speed
It's a subjective thing for many, but just boot up the game, look up some combo strings and try to replay them. Or film the screen with your controller inputs and just notice how much delay there is between your input and the output in the game, and how sometimes, your character just does something you didn't want them to do because the buffer fucked over your intent
It's like 15-20% songs that actually fit a fighting game. I mean that's still a shitton of music, but I don't get why there's sooo much filler whilst some bangers from former games and from franchises are omitted. Again, it makes no sense that one of the view competetively viable stages exclusively has snoozy music
There are so many bad stages that the random button becomes useless, in general, despite there being so many stages, only a handful of them are fun for 1v1s, 2v2s or free for alls. It has really bad modes. The item play is actually awful, like legitimately the worst in the series by far. Explosions being unable to hurt the person that cause them ruins the risk-reward and the chaos that something like the B-bomb has brought previously. Items like the air thing from Zelda are legit unfair. Some final smashes are absolutely busted (Zelda's and Peach's for example), whilst others (Sonic...) are so awful. The buffering system just constantly frustrates too.
I don't have a reason to play Ultimate over 64, Melee, PM or Brawl with friends. Or playing Ult casually over the others
Adeleine thanks, I didn't know about most of this info
you do realize you can customize what stages appear when you hit random, right? and items, too.
the spirit fights are fairly unique between interactions, at least the higher level ones are. Not to mention the excelent boss fights, and that moment. and even if the game is repetitive, this is still better than subspace emissary. if you want to talk repetitive, then look at that modes gameplay. and while the characters don't interact, I find the relationship between Galeem and the other guy to be pretty fulfilling still.
Counterpoint, most unevolved mons are like Lego Blocks. Going around in SV is a damn chore, and a pointless endeavor most of the time.
There's a lot to like in SV, but every time I play it, I want GF to move on already so that I can have my boy Gallade with Sharpness in a better game.
Speaking of pointless...
Smash Ultimate is quite frankly a waste of time.
World of L is too gimmicky and hit or miss to carry the single-player modes.
Online is a bust because the netcode is bad and everyone is on WiFi anyway.
There isn't enough game in that game.
The game's real crime is that my precious Ice Climbers are just okay. Making them anything less than top-tier is unforgivable.
Wow. This take is... so wrong.
This is probably the only part of the take that is correct. Yes, the buffering system is bad, but I don't really feel it too often and it feels like exaggeration.
What lol. Sonic is incomplete, I'll give you that, but in ultimate they cut down on the ball moves a bit so he is better. Steve is not so unbalanced that he always wins games, multiple players using low tier characters have proven that despite his dominance, this isn't a brawl meta knight or Smash 4 Bayonetta deal. Fox is far from 'neutral air the character', he is quite dynamic in his combo routes and they start from down air, sometimes down throw (if you are really skilled), up tilt and most importantly, dash attack. If you said someone like link was neutral air the character, then sure, I could see it, but fox is not it chief. Yink and the belmonts are annoying, but tell me what game doesn't have these 'annoying' characters. And yink is far more than projectile the character, as he has a lot of cool combos (and high level belmont play is sick, seriously they can come up with inventive stuff). Mr G&W is annoying (I won't even defend Min-Min, she is annoying and nothing can redeem her) but does have to be aggresive. His only projectile doesn't go far and doesn't do a lot outside of edge guarding. Also ultimate is far from a game that encourages making the game unfun or 'pp stalling'. It's a game centered around punishing your opponents mistakes by making the best of your advantage state with lots of high string combos. The top tiers of the game are the ones that can take advantage of this the best.
WoL is a meh single player game, but can we stop coping that Supspace Emissary was good? The only thing it had was the cutscenes, which tbh if your best part of your story mode is CUTSCENES, that isn't good at all. The WoL bosses are cool and don't even forget the fact you get to play as master hand at the end. Can subspace emissary do that? Didn't think so. And even the normal fights are alright. Yes, they get somewhat repetitive, but they are at least unique enough with mechanics that it doesn't feel copy pasted that much. Compare that to SSE, whose stages are only alright, and I'd say WoL is better, both are not amazing, but SSE is not 'peak'.
No? The classic mode is not boring. Every character has a different cast of characters to fight and while yes, a chunk of them are just master hand, at least this time a bunch are also unique bosses. No other Classic Mode had that, the best we had was Melee's mode where you have giga bowser always as the final boss (which Ultimate brings back, so even that is not good). Let's look at some extremely unique ones:
Megaman has the 'final' boss as its second last battle, which is something nothing else does. The final boss is against a dr mario then a mewtwo, which references the first megaman game's final boss of facing dr willy and then an alien.
Sephiroth's classic mode is literally a bosh rush, which is cool considering sephiroth is one of the most popular villians of all time.
Byleth doesn't seem too unique, but when you face against master hand and crazy hand, all the previous fighters you faced help you with reduced help, which while they oftentimes get ko'd almost immediately, is still a cool touch.
Mewtwo's classic mode is even cooler. The previous fighter you beat shows up as your ally, which is implying that mewtwo takes control/hypnotises them into helping you out, which is really cool.
Diddy Kong partners up with a new character every fight, facing off against an enemy team for each.
Every classic mode has a theme, so they are all good. Yes, the classic stage is the same for every character, but if you really hate it, you can literally just walk to the left and ko yourself, and even then its not bad, just repetitive.
Not having Destroy the Targets is a shame, but it isn't the worst thing in the world. And All-Star Mode has always stunk, so complaining about it isn't really fair when others are just as bad, at least this time you don't have to constantly jump out of the action every 2 minutes.
Honestly, I prefer that there isn't any 'complex' mechanics for movement (there is slingshotting if you need it and other minor mechanics like b reversing) but in terms of core game speed, ultimate is by far the best. Hell, even Melee, which is seen as a fast game, if you put away all the complex mechanics is slow as shit (try playing a game without wavedashing, you will see the big difference). So no, I don't think its 'restricted'.
I mean, sure they are maybe a bit overdesiged, but why is that an issue? There are stages that don't have this problem, so you can enjoy those. The UI isn't really inconsistent, in fact ultimate bases its UI a lot of Persona 5's UI, which has been praised for its design. Final smashes do not really suck, only the transformation ones do, everything else got better. I would take DK's current final smash over the weird bongo one any day of the week. The explosion thing I also don't get. Literally one or two items now have that property when you throw them, but when they are neutral they still can hurt you. Idk what you are talking about. Also, the music selection is very good, as many songs are tranquil and peaceful, just as many are hardcore and 'fighting game material'. Like, you do realise 1066 songs is a lot right? You can find a song to your liking there easily.
I'm sorry, this is just simply untrue. I went into the cutscene viewer for smash ultimate and there are a total of 7 cutscenes, three are for different endings (which accounts for about 5 custscenes). Two for the start of the game, one for after you defeat galeem, one for after you beat dharkon when you enter the final area of the game and finally three for each ending depending on the light, dark and true ending. So yes, there are cutscenes. Not as many as SSE, but they are damn good quality cutscenes Watch this video to see what I mean.
I think you don't understand that its not restricted. Yes, there are not as many mechanics as previous games, but th speed of the game is much faster. You don't need anything fancy in order to go fast, you just are naturally fast. Attacks are much faster and have less endlag, and if you truly want to have schmovement, then b reversing and slingshots are here.
As stated above, you can simply just choose not to select them with the random option if wanted. The item play is not awful, they are on average for Smash standards, and there are even more which means more variety, which is good. I also feel like you are overexaggerating the bomb aspect. If you really want a bomb that punishes players for using it (which is bad game design, no I don't want to be punished for making a right decision), then the sticky bomb and motion bomb are still there. The Gust bellows from Zelda was also in Smash 4, so it isn't something that is unique to Ultimate and is probably the one item that is unfair, the other contentious ones like timer and deku nut do have legitimate counterplay. Zelda and Peach's are extremely strong, but they are the only one's I would say are overpowered at all, others do have counterplay to them. Only really Sonic and Jigglypuff's (and even then Jiggylpuffs can be effective at a ledge) are bad. The buffering system you are once again overexaggerating on. It's not as bad as you are saying it is. Online it is, but that's due to Nintendo's shitty delay based netcode, which is not an Ultimate exclusive problem so calling it a fault of Ultimate is unfair.
I wasn't going to address any other posts because I would prefer one consistent arguement, but this point is so confusing. How can smash ultimate not have enough content. Like, even if you hate it to your core, the one thing you can give it credit for is that it has a buttload of content. The amount of characters, stages, side modes, all of it is more than enough content to last someone a lifetime.
A lifetime of misery, wallowing, and despair.
What content of actual substance does that game have? Sure, you have a million characters for versus mode, so what? You really might as well have the same offline content as Smash 64.
Also, the actual gameplay part of Subspace was fire, wtf are you talking about
WoL is literally a repackaged mission mode from the other games. It's just the same versus mode with extra bs on top.
What? Like, there are many different side modes. Classic mode, all star mode, stage builder, WoL, challenges, Training Mode, Home Run Contest, Mii Fighter, Amiibo, and that's just the start.. If this was the case, then most other smash games would also have zero substance as well. And even within the million characters, there is so much variety.
It is mid. Seriously, like, I remember before WoL came out, everybody was complaining about how bad Subspace was, but as soon as WoL came out, it was a 180 to "Oh, it was actually good". No, it is not good, it is mid. I'm not even saying WoL is amazing, I'm just saying its alright, same as with Subspace, but at least WoL has really good parts that aren't just cutscenes, which even WoL's cutscenes are great though they do have less (everybody magically forgets that you can play as Master Hand, which was every kids dream lets be real). Part of the reason subspace is bad is admittingly due to Brawl's controls, yes I do love being punished for running constantly and in a way which is totally random :), but even still the stages are only alright as Smash wasn't designed for big open world stages.Also, the actual gameplay part of Subspace was fire, wtf are you talking about
We need to stop putting Subspace on a pedestal, it isn't great, its mid. Compare it to any other story mode of any other game, and you will see its not good (and idk if this counts as a 'story' mode, but Smash Run is how those open stages should be done, and if you think Smash Run is bad, you are objectively wrong).
This is mostly correct information on its face (besides Game and Watch, who is notoriously defensive and passive with his out of shield game, excellent ranged disjoints, and juggling - you don't need a projectile to have a very defensive gameplay), but it generally misses LD's point. Steve is not Brawl MK? Sure. Steve's not exclusively about being boring? Sure. Steve's problem is that, for many many players (myself included), he's ruinously unfun to fight. Steve having cool combos does not make him fun to fight against for many people - it makes him even more annoying, as he can punish small mistakes against his very-unfun gameplan with very harsh damage.
As you said, every game has those type of "not fun to play against" guys. Sure. Ultimate having one of those guys in Steve doesn't mean the pitchforks come out. But Smash Ultimate's unique problem is more complicated than that and honestly hard to take on in a post here. I'll try my best though. All of the following bullet points compound on each other to worsen the problem of "I'm often fighting against often-boring chars, often training against often-boring chars, watching often-boring chars, and even having often-boring random character dittos."
1) There are so many "not fun to vs" chars. This is obviously subjective, but like, we know that people dislike versusing Min Min generally and like versusing Ganondorf generally, and we know some reasons for that. The list of characters I would lump in as "not fun to vs" chars is: Steve, Sonic, Game and Watch, Pyra/Mythra, ROB, Kazuya, Pikachu, Bayonetta, Snake, Samus, Min Min, Pacman, Zero Suit Samus, Hero, Ryu, Luigi, Mega Man, Olimar, Sora, Ice Climbers, Toon Link, Young Link, Rosalina, Jigglypuff, Mii Gunner, Lucas, Robin, Simon / Richter, Duck Hunt, Lucario, Banjo, Wii Fit Trainer, Mii Swordfighter, Villager, Zelda, Isabelle, Piranha Plant, Little Mac, and King Dedede. That's a lot!!! It's right about 50% of the cast. I'm not condemning people who play these characters (i play some of them!), saying they're always boring, or saying you're not allowed to have fun playing against them. Just that people generally tend to not enjoy it, and that I could explain why if you asked me. Maybe you disagree with some of the characters on this list, but there's a whole set of secondary chars that almost made the list, so maybe sub one of your objections out for one of these guys: Diddy Kong, Palutena, Joker, Terry, Yoshi, Ivysaur, Greninja, Ness, Kirby, K. Rool.
2) The "not fun to vs" chars are so varied in gameplay. It's not as easy as saying, oh, now I know how to get past zoners, so now I know how to match up against all these unfun-to-versus characters. Bayonetta, Samus, Pikachu, Kazuya, Zelda, Simon, Pac-Man, and R.O.B. have very different gameplans. This game's huge number of characters makes managing and training for matchups already very hard, making it very easy to just get caught off guard by some weird character or silly tech you didn't know about, and how often these matchup problems are attached to not-fun characters is a total drag. This problem exacerbates when we talk about knowledge checks, little intricacies about characters, combo routes, tools, etc. you either know or you don't. Do you know how much damage Pac Man hydrant takes to get uprooted? Do you know Bonus Fruit Hydrant/Water physics? If you don't, it becomes all the easier for Pac Man to utilize these tools against you. Apply this logic across all the other characters, individually.
3) The "not fun to vs" chars are unusually cohesive. The standard archetype is that, when you have a zoner character, their win condition is "they're far away from you" and their lose condition is "you managed to approach into them and get close". OK... so... what about R.O.B., a character who immensely benefits from creating separation to use laser and gyro... but who ALSO has some of the best close-quarters and boxing tools in the game in Dtilt and Nair. What happens when you finally get in through Villager's slingshots, and then you take a down smash, and then a fsmash, and surprise you're dead for taking one hit at 50. I'm not trying to act like these characters are broken - they have weaknesses. (Especially Villager and Dsmash - this was supposed to get into skill curve discussion I forgot about.) But these weaknesses are often more complicated and subtle than the basic archetype of annoying characters would suggest, especially since many of these characters are very very good (though again not broken). This problem is exacerbated because the weakness configurations change so much from character to character. Even Duck Hunt, the closest thing to an archetypal zoner I can think of with his severe close-to-midrange combat deficiency and general lack of overtuning, a shining example I point to of an Ultimate zoner that has a straightforward lose condition..... has a frame 1 combo escape option. God forbid we talk about a good unfun guy with a harder lose condition, like Sonic. And this explanation comes from me, a locally competitive player with 2500 hours who has practiced setting out their Ultimate design thoughts coherently. God forbid a new player approach this bramble maze.
MockRock made a video on the subject I remember being good, but it's been a long time, so don't quote me. And, ah geez, I forgot to talk about skill curves, which make zoning a lot more painful for a lot of people. But it's late. Maybe another time.
I don't know how I feel about this claim. LIke, making punishes is critical, but so is avoiding opponent punishes. The two characters people say are the best now, Steve and Sonic, are defined in large part by their defensive, evasive gameplay making them hard to punish. Like, yeah, you can say these guys are good at punishing, but that's not really a gotcha own when, once we look at the playstyle they use to make and avoid punishes, it's so unfun to play against for so many people for very reasonable and justifiable reasons.
51/78 classic routes, so about 2/3s, are one or both of the hands. so most of them, as LD said.
There's more I take issue with here, I think you're poorly informed wrt SSE and items, but I've put enough words out there for now and I think this argument is starting to spiral out of control anyway. There are some points of yours I agree with though - Classic has a lot to like, random stage select solves a lot of (but not all) issues, and Melee-style movement complexity can make a game less accessible and less fun for many.
E:
I've gone over the pretty serious flaws in stage builder in past posts. Amiibo requires spending ~20 bucks more on a plastic toy. Mii Fighter is just a way to make some characters in the game accessible for play, - it's cool that you can give these characters varying accessories and paid costumes, but I can hardly call this a "side mode". Training is not a side mode (and it is seriously flawed for reasons that could be its own other post), it is a rudimentary requirement for a functional fighting game (and Ult's poor training mode barely hits that bare minimum, but this applies to Smash games in general). And the side mode list, which needed a loose interpretation of "side mode" to stretch as long as it did, is certainly not "just the start" at all - it's the vast majority of non-fighting single-player content in the game. C'mon.
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As soon as Smash 4 came out without Subspace people immediately called Smash Run "Subspace but worse" and started praying the Wii U would have a better alternative.
That's an indictment of how either it wasn't memorable enough, or how no one really cared about WoL enough to get that far.
More like "and that's just the end". Also, most of these were in Brawl anyway.
Smash Ultimate relies too much on modes that either are gimmicky spins on Vs. Mode or worse than Vs. Mode anyway.
It is a subjective opinion, but I just can't see the value of that game. A million characters to use in local versus just isn't going to move the needle that high for me.
I really don't remember people saying that, and if that was the case then that shows how finnicky people are with game modes if they say Smash Run was bad (which anybody who has played it will know how good it is). So that doesn't really say that Subspace is good, it just says that people are switching rose tinted glasses constantly because they perceive something as worse.
But that is something Subspace doesn't have? And, no, it was memorable. You had to balance out taking out the light and dark fighters in order to get equilibrium and then master hand preceded to be played. Playing as a character you are normally never allowed to play is something memorable. And if somebody doesn't play a game fully (or mostly) than I don't think they should judge a game, as they are not getting the full experience.
No, that isn't the end. I'll list some more: Spirit Board, Squad Strike, Special Smash, Spirit Board, The Shop (if you want to count it), VR (though that is a bit more specilised since you need extra software), Shared Content, Spectate, Online Tourney, Events and now that's poetntially the end. And yes, most of them were in brawl, but that does not mean Ultimate is worse, the fact it has most of the side content that Brawl has and more is better.
No? These aren't what Ultimate relies on, its to help the other content. Smash Ultimate relies on the phrase "Everyone is here" if anything as its main appeal. Most things you could do in previous smash games, minus some exceptions, are able to be played. And tbh, something like Destroy the Targets isn't really the biggest thing in the world, all the important things such as Stage Builder, Classic Mode and Training Mode are there.
I don't really hold me not enjoying the more competitive parts of Ultimate against it specifically, because I take issue with the standard conventions of fighting games in general. So then the question is whether it accomplishes what I want casually out of a Smash game, which broadly amounts to "is it a good showcase/introduction for some of may favourite series?" And the answer is that it doesn't really do a great job compared to previous games. There's few reworks of older characters to bring them up to newcomers (Link is the exception, but then BotW isn't the Zelda I care about), Incineroar's moveset still comes off as "are you even aware this is an RPG series with defined moves and stats?" like most other pokemon, and many new characters are such massive names everybody's already heard of them. Min Min's cool I guess, but I also have a fighting game with her that fits my interests better right there on the same system (and also that doesn't help pre-dlc impressions).
okay so after burning down this thread yesterday, let's continue with another radical statement
Suite Life on Deck suuuuuuucked
I loved the original show as a kid, but I hated the new characters, I thought the new setting was sooo much worse and it was so much less grounded. Suite Life was just weirdly natural, despite being zany. on Deck was so far removed from anything grounded, I hated how they later just introduced fantastical elements. And the original cast was really wonderful, all the characters and their interactions/relations just made sense, allowing for a lot of comedic and narrative potential. The new characters were really stinky. The new girl was such a boring disney channel star cutout. And bro I fucking hated these sets, the hotel show looked fine because it's just a hotel, but then they travel the world and it all looks so sketchy and dumb. And why were they even on the damn boat, it makes sense that they lived in a hotel because their mom worked there, that's something that happens in real life, but why were they in this stupid boat man
But the international date line episode was honestly great. The one episode I remember really well. Rock solid concept and done very well. But the rest was stinky
Suite Life on Deck suuuuuuucked
I loved the original show as a kid, but I hated the new characters, I thought the new setting was sooo much worse and it was so much less grounded. Suite Life was just weirdly natural, despite being zany. on Deck was so far removed from anything grounded, I hated how they later just introduced fantastical elements. And the original cast was really wonderful, all the characters and their interactions/relations just made sense, allowing for a lot of comedic and narrative potential. The new characters were really stinky. The new girl was such a boring disney channel star cutout. And bro I fucking hated these sets, the hotel show looked fine because it's just a hotel, but then they travel the world and it all looks so sketchy and dumb. And why were they even on the damn boat, it makes sense that they lived in a hotel because their mom worked there, that's something that happens in real life, but why were they in this stupid boat man
But the international date line episode was honestly great. The one episode I remember really well. Rock solid concept and done very well. But the rest was stinky
Exactly. Everyone is here collecting dust.
The actual content that makes up the game is either gimmicky or stale in my opinion. To make things worse, Online is a mess.
Therefore, I have a hard time justifying actually investing in that game. It literally has no value to me.
You see, no one said it was bad. They just said it was worse than Subspace.
And it objectively is since it doesn't have the story content Subspace does. You're attacking a strawman. Smash Run isn't even in Ultimate.
You're just caping for a game you like. There's nothing wrong with it, but let's be honest.
Unfortunately, the universal human impulse to write giant paragraphs when your taste in media is challenged is impossible to resist for many.
[resolved - i appreciate the response, especially since i had not considered that possibility]
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for the broader objection to longer posts, my thought is like, there are plenty of shorter posts, can't you just scroll past the longer posts you don't like? arguments like this can fall flat in other contexts, but like, there's nothing offensive about the longer posts, and i don't see them clogging up limited space - there's been no takes in this thread for 2 days, plenty of time for anyone wanting to jump in with a shorter post.
(i know this post is discussion and not a take, but the past two posts were also discussion and not takes)
(i'm also aware this sort of discussion can spiral into unproductiveness so i'm probably not going to directly respond to anything about take length, i might edit this post to include my response though)
(if this post becomes no longer relevant i have no objection to deleting it / it being deleted)
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Upon rereading, I realize that my initial post reads like vague sniping at the participants of the recent discussion, but that wasn't my intention. I was trying to make a general statement about Internet discourse; I wasn't consciously thinking about the recent discussion in this thread when I posted that. I can't speak to whether that particular discussion fits my observation because I didn't read much of it. I apologize for making you feel attacked. I have no hard feelings towards you or anybody else who participated in that discussion, and I'm not bothered by it happening. As you say, I can harmlessly scroll past posts that I'm not interested in reading, and I have been.
