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Big [Multifaction] Radical Mafia: One Piece (Won by Radicals, Zorbees, Gmax, and Mekkah)

oh wait one more thing

You also forced yourself to be the Main Character by telling your Core and Radical newbies not to talk to anyone and didn't trust them to play by themselves.

AND THEN YOU WANT TO GO TO ECAT AND TELL HIM THE CORE OR RADICAL LOSS IS ON HIS SHOULDERS

gtfo with that.

The newbies in this game seem like smart, capable people and I am pissed off that you robbed me of the opportunity to get to interact with mine. YOU had that all game and still squandered it with your "I'm the best but I can only trust myself and I don't WANNA teach them how to be the big carry" attitude.

gross.

galactikitty knew sam was a snake and her team tried to gaslight her that "no no it's all gonna be good" and choked away an easy af joint-core win trying to butter up with a known reptile who had an alternative wincon with more people than core had.

SMH.
 
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Regarding the ECat thing:
ElectricityCat WAS the kingmaker on the last day. This is because anything other than a GK or an ECat vote means that I risk losing, which I obviously can't accept there. I told GK what was happening, honestly, in the Discord server. I told her that if she could get ECat to give Solo Gov the win then I'd go with her and we would win together, which I would have. ECat made it clear he preferred a radicaltopia win, which meant that my only 100% win there was to go with that.

So no, everything I did was perfectly logical. I did not do anything in a 'feckless' manner, nor did I push responsibility off onto anyone else artificially. I chose to win for myself, and then told my allies what had to happen for them to win with me.

Regarding the AP vote - I told Dak that if he unvoted I would vote for AP, and he said if AP died he would heal me. We gave each other our word of honor on that, and we both followed through. Yes, I could've stealthed back to ECat at the last minute and won the game by tricking him. Yes, he could've chosen not to heal me and possibly could've won by doing so. I don't regret holding true to my word there, and I was glad that M2H and Jalmont were willing to accept that it was objectively the correct play and didn't totally close off working with me in the future over it.

GG all, it is unfortunate that there is so much salt going around but in general I am glad that Laurel was able to host and put in the time to make this game happen, and thank you to all the newer players who really stepped up and grew in front of my eyes.

Finally, shout-outs:
Gmax - Thank you for being the best neutral partner I could've asked for. I hope I was at least helpful in getting your win, though I think you could've done it easily without me haha. I owe this win to you helping me out, as do all the other radicals even if they don't know it.
Bass - Thank you for getting the radicals organized, great job as always and it is unfortunate that you apparently were pretty salty at me at times in the dead chat. I don't think I deserved any salt from the radical side frankly, but perhaps it was misunderstandings.
AngryPidgeon - Sorry for voting you out, but if you think about it I think you'll realize it was the correct play and directly led to winning the game. M2H and Jalmont at least told me they had come to the same conclusion after I explained it to them.
M2H - Great job going from claiming to LN on N0 to manipulating the votes and actions of the entire game towards the end.
JALMONT - Thank you for always being chill and a calming influence when everyone else was popping off and going crazy. Talking to you was often a breathe of fresh air.
dak - We both held true to our words at the end, and I respect that immensely. I'm genuinely sorry that you didn't win, as you were the only person I felt I really worked well with on World Gov. If you feel I wronged you by refusing to jeopardize my own win to try to help GK then that is your right to feel that way after sticking to your word to help me.
Ditto / Blazade - I'm sorry we didn't really get to work more closely together. I think to some degree it was the lack of common enemies after the first few cycles that meant we were always going to have some trouble working together in perfect harmony, but I do wish you both had been at least a little more open to working more directly with me. If you had I'd have stuck with you 100%, as I was the first few cycles.

To the SHF Core - I'm sorry that you had a really bad time this game. I don't like making people miserable in mafia, but I was playing to my win condition and mafia is a bastard game at the end of the day. The generally negative vibe I got from having to lie to my friends like that is one reason I really didn't have much fun this game (at least for the first 4-5 cycles). I really wish I had genuinely rolled SHF Core and gotten to vibe with you all just like old times.

And finally, to realiti and saberslasher11, my teammates - well done, and thanks for your trust in me throughout.

Thank you to everyone else who I worked with or talked to who I forgot to mention, and ggwp to all.
 
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Postgame Shoutouts

Laurel
I'm sorry for getting agitated about night action resolution in dead chat. I know modding involves a lot of time. However, this was a intense mechanical game by design and I believe you should be transparent about how the mechanics work as much as possible. I care about what happened because I'm mentally and emotionally involved in the game, which you should as a mod should be happy about. On that night in particular I told BuiBui to fire even though he predicted he'd die, but I had calculated that I could bus him Flandrs to Dak to save him. I think most players will say that the web of actions on that night was chaotic and not obvious how it should be resolved.

I knew nothing about One Piece before this and Im glad I bought multiple volumes of the manga because I am enjoying reading it a lot. So in that sense, and making friends, the game was a success for me.

A few people, including Laurel more or less said that the mod is always right and that is how action resolution goes. IMO this is a poisoned line of reasoning. Mafia in general and specific communities should aim to have consistency. Avant-garde mechanics and setups will happen of course, but the notion that "its up to the mod" should not be taken to its logical end. If I made a game with a town and mafia blocker, and then midgame resolved actions such that the mafia blocker always has priority, people would definitely have some raised eyebrows. This is extra true if there was no indication in the roles/rules that this was the case.

Oden
I just want you to know I wasnt trying to harass you by asking you to admit you were a rad. I knew you (probably) weren't at that point. Its part of my scumgame to raise general chaos and engage in WIFOM. I think your best course of action was to ignore me in that situation or keep the convo private. The ensuing chaos of you pasting the logs multiple times just served to muddy the waters which was part of my goal with engaging you.

Radicals
It was great working with all the rads. Most of us were committed to the team throughout the game. I hope you guys are on my team again in the future. Im not going to call all of you out, but you all did exactly what you needed and played a smooth game.
Bass
It was a pleasure working with you this game. You brought identity to the radical team, and maintained a collected demeanor even while dying. You helped me get my bearing in this game, and I hope we are on the same team again in the future. You believed in the team from start to finish.

M2H
You carried the baton to the end of the game. This was a long journey for rads. We got off on a bad footing, but you never gave up and rose to the occasion later on in the game. You never lost sight of the win even when I had given up in death. Also you are just very fun to play with. Both of us have some affinity for trolling. Regardless, you deserved this win.


Do I need to say it? Uncle Sam told me to bus him with GK who could not be bussed. After this error, he assumed I lied to him about being blocked. I had no reason to throw the game at that point. I followed his orders all game, and was entirely open with him after the first day, just to have him stab me and then tell the rads that I had thrown the game. If Sam had told me I needed to bus him and Dak the next night, I would have done it no questions asked. But Sam assumed I was simply dumb and/or working against him I guess? Him claiming that I "failed a loyalty test" was absurd considering I did everything he told me to all game except when I bussed Flandrs/Dak which was going to fail regardless. Sam claiming to GK later in the game that he avoided targeting anyone on his team was rich. He coordinated with rads to screw Exithe in the late game. Sam dragging the game out into multiple rounds of kingmaker and then passing the buck to EC as the games kingmaker was a craven attempt to placate both sides. Throwing a solved rad win out the window to drag the game on, and then make milquetoast votes in kingmaker situations was just bleh. As a player, I can say I definitely learned my lesson about collaborating with Sam in games: don't.

I agree with most of what you said. Let me try to respond to things individually.

Sam Moling SHF
I think this was the most reasonable thing Sam did. There were a lot of players who tried to mole this game, its just Sam had the most direct success. It was kind of on Bluedoom to take the lead like all the other faction kill carriers did. You could say this was a failure with the setup design and I would somewhat agree with that. I don't know One Piece very well, I started reading the manga after we played. However, it seems to me that fakeclaiming as SHF was inherently more likely to succeed than as other factions just by sheer odds. There were more characters that could plausibly fall into the SHF bucket, compared to SHP for instance. Not to mention the confusion between SHP/SHF like you said.

What is Mafia?
Yes, this point hit home for me. Part of me was thinking "is this really what kids these days think Mafia is?" I agree with pretty much all of your points. Something which affects deadline is borderline bastard. The neutrals were all somewhat 2-dimensional in that no one would risk wasting a tempo to NK them and they all just kind of do their thing. I'm not sure why you hated Mekkah's role so much (balance or the wording?). IMO Mekkah's role was maybe the best neutral role in the game, compared to Zorbees and Gmax.

The Endgame and Kingmakers
Ultimately, this game was a huge cluster of kingmaking, especially in the endgame. I agree it was really terrible to have the rads in such a commanding position that mods were debating whether or not to call the game, just to have the game DRAG for multiple days of kingmaking. This is largely Sams fault, but I think the game being inherently a kingmaker game is also a big problem.

Priority System
Hard agree that priority systems should be transparent and consistent. This one definitely involved a midgame decision. Laurel first said Tommy made the call, then later said he gave Dak priority because it was a OS (though this is arbitrary). This midgame decision resolved against SHF and I think its impossible to deny that subconscious bias affects decisions in the midgame. Mods can and should be expected to show their homework. Frankly, honestly it felt like the game design priority here was to make a flashy and memorable game. Balance and fairness was not considered as heavily in the setup design. Truth hurts, but thats the way I see it.

Game Balance
People kept saying that radicals were screwed this game. Obviously radicals won, so maybe that wasn't so true. This was a 5 faction game though and was ALWAYS destined to be kingmaker heavy. I agree with your assessment that government kind of threw the game to rads by creating such a disparity in cores early on. It forced SHP/EP to race to the bottom and forced SHF core to ally with rads. That said, I think on paper (and its very very very hard to predict this) rads had at least a 20% chance of winning radicaltopia. This is fine considering its a 5 faction game.
 
AngryPidgeon said:
Do I need to say it? Uncle Sam told me to bus him with GK who could not be bussed. After this error, he assumed I lied to him about being blocked. I had no reason to throw the game at that point. I followed his orders all game, and was entirely open with him after the first day, just to have him stab me and then tell the rads that I had thrown the game. If Sam had told me I needed to bus him and Dak the next night, I would have done it no questions asked. But Sam assumed I was simply dumb and/or working against him I guess? Him claiming that I "failed a loyalty test" was absurd considering I did everything he told me to all game except when I bussed Flandrs/Dak which was going to fail regardless. Sam claiming to GK later in the game that he avoided targeting anyone on his team was rich. He coordinated with rads to screw Exithe in the late game. Sam dragging the game out into multiple rounds of kingmaker and then passing the buck to EC as the games kingmaker was a craven attempt to placate both sides. Throwing a solved rad win out the window to drag the game on, and then make milquetoast votes in kingmaker situations was just bleh. As a player, I can say I definitely learned my lesson about collaborating with Sam in games: don't.
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Sadly you've been misinformed. The game was not a solved Rad win and if it had been I'd have stuck with Rads 100%. If we tie the vote where you die then we lose, straight up.

I made the only possible play so that both of us could win. And we did both win, because I made it. It is unfortunate that your takeaway from that is that I'm not someone you'd ever want to work with again, but it is what it is I suppose.

Separately, I did legitimately think you hadn't driven me because GK hadn't even claimed her passive to Ditto when I was on the World Gov sheet. I'm sorry for coming to the incorrect conclusion on that, and I clarified it to M2H and Jalmont that I had been wrong well before the game ended.

Finally, you were 100% right about using the Ninja on you over zorbees. The game never gets anywhere close to a radical loss if we (mostly me) had listened to your advice there. That was the actual only bad mechanical misplay that I can recall and which was totally avoidable. The GK being immune to bus drive or GMax leaving the game on kill redirect both also almost lost it for us, but neither was particularly avoidable even in hindsight I think.

You played very, very well this game, particularly for a new player. Hope you stick around.
 
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ggs
 
GGs. WP all, especially US.

My strategy this game was pretty simple. For the 2nd game in a row, I was given an unbelievably weak but provable role. So it ended up being a no-brainer to start collecting claims as soon as possible. I really enjoyed the scramble n0 to get claims from everyone. Generally I tend to enjoy games where I get to be honest, which is not always possible.

Diplomatically, my goal was to be the best ally I could to the teams I could win with. This is the kind of game that gets decided in kingmakers, and I wanted the decision of "who to kingmake for" to be obvious if my team was an option. This led to me giving too much information to UncleSam in attempts to "be a good ally" to the "SHFs". Ditto seemed really closed off from the start, but definitely warmed to us after the first couple cycles.

My initial thoughts toward radicals were this: since I wouldn't easily be able to tell the difference between my team's CORE and radicals, I wanted to essentially act as a leader for both, making decisions that both core and radicals would approve of. Since I interpreted radicaltopia as being pretty much impossible early on (lol), I felt that the radicals were tied to us. So if I was up-front about being a good ally to them, I had the potential for them to tell me who they were on their own. I immediately clocked M2H as a radical just based on his attempts to collect claims outside of me, and tried to get him to admit to being a radical in DM by being aggresively pro-radical in DM with him.

This became immediately irrelevant on D1 when LN's role PM was publicly posted. My radicals all claimed to him N0, and then all claimed to me D1 out of fear. Or, maybe, it worked. Either way, I had all 3 radical claims.

D1 was absolutely wild. Honestly I'm not sure why Ditto decided to stay neutral in the vote for so long. In retrospect, I understand why US was so willing to vote against SHF interests, but surprised that the rest of the team didn't instinctively jump in to the lechen vote. I genuinely didn't believe I had any argument but people seemed willing to vote LN anyway. And if we'd communicated properly with US and sunny, we'd have gotten away with it too!

At the end of D1, AF claimed, meaning I had all 6 EP core claims.... or so I thought. One of the two big mistakes I made this game was choosing the only wrong one of my 6 claims to believe, and I ended up adding bluedoom to my sheet (my thought was that I wanted someone who actually watched One Piece to take a look at the claims and see if they made sense). BD's claim was given to me initially by M2H, who had no reason to lie to me, which gave me more reason to believe BD, but obviously he was not a member of my team and sheeting him was a mistake. In retrospect, pinazo was the better choice to be the first teammate sheeted. Lucky for me, BD was randomly nightkilled by zorbees before telling his teammates my entire team composition. lol

I honestly felt on the back foot after Lechen's early exit - losing kill power is really rough, and from the way the game was shaping up, strawhats were going to be able to kill us extremely quickly. I think this is one of the shortcomings of this setup, even a small loss of power (losing Lechen) makes us worse allies than the Strawhats in the eyes of WG and the SHFs. It immediately became a priority to seem stronger than them ASAP. I'm pretty proud of how we turned this around. We were behind on kills, didn't have a cleanser, and still ended up stronger than the strawhats at the end of it.

The biggest mistake I made in this game was revealing pulsar to US. It wasn't necessary and led to US being able to manufacture her death. At the time, I was completely confident in US being SHF core, just from how we interacted. I should have noticed that the D1 lynch was odd, but since I didn't understand Ditto's play either, I think I just chalked it up to people preferring to work with me than with LN. Pulsar was by far the strongest role on our team, and when she died it was at least a -5 - pulsar herself (-1), the two resurrects (-2), and any saves (at least another -2). It put us so far on the backseat, and forced us to continue hunting SH core. I needed to recognize that pulsar, flandrs, and AF were the roles we were going to win the game with & do everything possible to hide them.

Shoutout to:
Ullar - appreciate the hell out of you stepping up when my life got crazy and then i died in the game
Pinazo and ElectricityCat - super fun to be teamed with you guys. getting new players on your team is always a crapshoot, and you guys cared + played well. looking forward to seeing you in more games
StupidFlandrs48 - i wish we'd worked together a bit more closely when you subbed in. there were some decisions you made very quickly that ended up biting us (claiming with real role to strawhats, deciding to mole the radicals even though at that point we had a good relationship with them, using our one and only heal on a player we cannot win with without telling me that you were doing this). still, you were fun to have in team chat.
M2H , Ditto - was a pleasure working with both of you
UncleSam - GGWP, I was played
 
UncleSam said:
Regarding the ECat thing:
ElectricityCat WAS the kingmaker on the last day. This is because anything other than a GK or an ECat vote means that I risk losing, which I obviously can't accept there. I told GK what was happening, honestly, in the Discord server. I told her that if she could get ECat to give Solo Gov the win then I'd go with her and we would win together, which I would have. ECat made it clear he preferred a radicaltopia win, which meant that my only 100% win there was to go with that.

So no, everything I did was perfectly logical. I did not do anything in a 'feckless' manner, nor did I push responsibility off onto anyone else artificially. I chose to win for myself, and then told my allies what had to happen for them to win with me.

Regarding the AP vote - I told Dak that if he unvoted I would vote for AP, and he said if AP died he would heal me. We gave each other our word of honor on that, and we both followed through. Yes, I could've stealthed back to ECat at the last minute and won the game by tricking him. Yes, he could've chosen not to heal me and possibly could've won by doing so. I don't regret holding true to my word there, and I was glad that M2H and Jalmont were willing to accept that it was objectively the correct play and didn't totally close off working with me in the future over it.

GG all, it is unfortunate that there is so much salt going around but in general I am glad that Laurel was able to host and put in the time to make this game happen, and thank you to all the newer players who really stepped up and grew in front of my eyes.

Finally, shout-outs:
Gmax - Thank you for being the best neutral partner I could've asked for. I hope I was at least helpful in getting your win, though I think you could've done it easily without me haha. I owe this win to you helping me out, as do all the other radicals even if they don't know it.
Bass - Thank you for getting the radicals organized, great job as always and it is unfortunate that you apparently were pretty salty at me at times in the dead chat. I don't think I deserved any salt from the radical side frankly, but perhaps it was misunderstandings.
AngryPidgeon - Sorry for voting you out, but if you think about it I think you'll realize it was the correct play and directly led to winning the game. M2H and Jalmont at least told me they had come to the same conclusion after I explained it to them.
M2H - Great job going from claiming to LN on N0 to manipulating the votes and actions of the entire game towards the end.
JALMONT - Thank you for always being chill and a calming influence when everyone else was popping off and going crazy. Talking to you was often a breathe of fresh air.
dak - We both held true to our words at the end, and I respect that immensely. I'm genuinely sorry that you didn't win, as you were the only person I felt I really worked well with on World Gov. If you feel I wronged you by refusing to jeopardize my own win to try to help GK then that is your right to feel that way after sticking to your word to help me.
Ditto / Blazade - I'm sorry we didn't really get to work more closely together. I think to some degree it was the lack of common enemies after the first few cycles that meant we were always going to have some trouble working together in perfect harmony, but I do wish you both had been at least a little more open to working more directly with me. If you had I'd have stuck with you 100%, as I was the first few cycles.

To the SHF Core - I'm sorry that you had a really bad time this game. I don't like making people miserable in mafia, but I was playing to my win condition and mafia is a bastard game at the end of the day. The generally negative vibe I got from having to lie to my friends like that is one reason I really didn't have much fun this game (at least for the first 4-5 cycles). I really wish I had genuinely rolled SHF Core and gotten to vibe with you all just like old times.

And finally, to realiti and saberslasher11, my teammates - well done, and thanks for your trust in me throughout.

Thank you to everyone else who I worked with or talked to who I forgot to mention, and ggwp to all.
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The one cycle I was actually active I protect your ass and you guys shoot me...and then you tag me saying it's my fault we didn't work together better?

I feel bad enough for failing to be able to put in the energy you did for a 24h cycle game, and for in general failing the World Government by not doing more, but I'm not gonna sit here and take that lol. I knew through the whole game that you were pulling a lot of strings for radicaltopia but I didn't care because you're my friend and I do have a bit of a soft spot emotional manipulation wise.

Genuinely I did still have fun this game and I know you were doing what you had to do but I'm not gonna sit here and let the narrative be that I wasn't trusting enough after how this game played out LMAO.
 
Blazade said:
The one cycle I was actually active I protect your ass and you guys shoot me...and then you tag me saying it's my fault we didn't work together better?

I feel bad enough for failing to be able to put in the energy you did for a 24h cycle game, and for in general failing the World Government by not doing more, but I'm not gonna sit here and take that lol. I knew through the whole game that you were pulling a lot of strings for radicaltopia but I didn't care because you're my friend and I do have a bit of a soft spot emotional manipulation wise.

Genuinely I did still have fun this game and I know you were doing what you had to do but I'm not gonna sit here and let the narrative be that I wasn't trusting enough after how this game played out LMAO.
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You're right on this Blazade, the rift between us happened before you were ever in a leadership position. I think to some degree this was due to how hard we hit the SHF Core early - it meant we had relatively few shared enemies in the middle game, and that combined with the whole bad blood surrounding me leaving the server / sheet and you all siding with LN for cycles on end meant that working more actively with me that night wasn't a trust issue. Thanks for calling that out, I tend to try to be precise when I post stuff like that but obviously missed something there.
 
AngryPidgeon said:
Postgame Shoutouts

Laurel
I'm sorry for getting agitated about night action resolution in dead chat. I know modding involves a lot of time. However, this was a intense mechanical game by design and I believe you should be transparent about how the mechanics work as much as possible. I care about what happened because I'm mentally and emotionally involved in the game, which you should as a mod should be happy about. On that night in particular I told BuiBui to fire even though he predicted he'd die, but I had calculated that I could bus him Flandrs to Dak to save him. I think most players will say that the web of actions on that night was chaotic and not obvious how it should be resolved.

I knew nothing about One Piece before this and Im glad I bought multiple volumes of the manga because I am enjoying reading it a lot. So in that sense, and making friends, the game was a success for me.

A few people, including Laurel more or less said that the mod is always right and that is how action resolution goes. IMO this is a poisoned line of reasoning. Mafia in general and specific communities should aim to have consistency. Avant-garde mechanics and setups will happen of course, but the notion that "its up to the mod" should not be taken to its logical end. If I made a game with a town and mafia blocker, and then midgame resolved actions such that the mafia blocker always has priority, people would definitely have some raised eyebrows. This is extra true if there was no indication in the roles/rules that this was the case.
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I'm happy you enjoyed the game but the way you went about discussing the topic was inappropriate. Nobody, as far as I'm aware ever said "the mod is always right" not even me. I made plenty of mistakes this game. However, telling me and Tommy on several occasions that "we're wrong" is not an appropriate response. There were a multitude of players discussing the exact situation like Yeti respectfully. Even if you said "I disagree with the way you solved" is a socially acceptable answer, but I told you several times I discussed this exact situation with 4 experienced EIMM solvers and we all agreed that the way this was solved was correct. If you want to say it was a mistake to not have an established tie breaker before the game you're completely correct, and it was. But given the situation, the solve made logical sense. I hope that my reaction doesn't discourage you from playing again, but the same way you cared about the game so did I. I delayed the game for almost 36 hours to make sure there were multiple people who supported the way these actions were resolved. Thanks for playing.
 
GG to everyone, it was really fun. This was my first Mafia game, at first I was a bit lost but little by little I got the hang of it and it was a very good experience. So I would like to thank everyone I spoke with, they were part of my learning, and therefore, positive for my gaming experience. M2H, NightEmerald, UncleSam, Ditto, Pinazo, A fairy, Ullar, Askaninjask, Celever, ziloXX, and if I'm missing someone so sorry it's too late when I'm writing this.

Thank you very much to all the Hosts for creating this great event, it is clear that it’s not easy.

Special thanks to Alice Kazumi for inviting me to play, if it weren’t for her I would probably not know about this forum.

And also to Dead by Daylight for being one of the first to interact with me and for being my greatest accomplice in this game. I would have liked to win together but things happened, you know. With little experience, I couldn't realize certain things on time.
 
Laurel said:
I'm happy you enjoyed the game but the way you went about discussing the topic was inappropriate. Nobody, as far as I'm aware ever said "the mod is always right" not even me. I made plenty of mistakes this game. However, telling me and Tommy on several occasions that "we're wrong" is not an appropriate response. There were a multitude of players discussing the exact situation like Yeti respectfully. Even if you said "I disagree with the way you solved" is a socially acceptable answer, but I told you several times I discussed this exact situation with 4 experienced EIMM solvers and we all agreed that the way this was solved was correct. If you want to say it was a mistake to not have an established tie breaker before the game you're completely correct, and it was. But given the situation, the solve made logical sense. I hope that my reaction doesn't discourage you from playing again, but the same way you cared about the game so did I. I delayed the game for almost 36 hours to make sure there were multiple people who supported the way these actions were resolved. Thanks for playing.
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I would like to point out in your defense that it used to be common practice for hosts to include "Do not ask about priority" in their Opening Posts. This is to the point that I have it ingrained in me not to badger hosts with priority questions, to my detriment in the modern era. I don't really know or care what happened, but priority and game mechanical interactions are absolutely not objective. They are arbitrary, up to the mod, and as long as they are set before the game begins and approved by others as being sane as sensible, really not that important in the first place. The hosts giving any information at all about how standard roles interact is honestly really generous, and the reason the old culture was not to talk about priority was probably to prevent situations where people argued with the hosts about how their own game is resolved, inviting them to instead figure out why things didn't work out the way they expected.
 
UncleSam said:
Ditto / Blazade - I'm sorry we didn't really get to work more closely together. I think to some degree it was the lack of common enemies after the first few cycles that meant we were always going to have some trouble working together in perfect harmony, but I do wish you both had been at least a little more open to working more directly with me. If you had I'd have stuck with you 100%, as I was the first few cycles.
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I will say this again because I do think you need to understand it. I was working with you fully, although at the time I did believe you were core as I thought that the radicals wouldn't have 2 Status Killers. You were the person I was communicating and coordinating the most with in the beginning and then you went behind my back and changed actions we had agreed upon. I don't blame you for that from a gameplay standpoint. You were playing to your win conditions and making good plays. What I have a problem with is the sense of entitlement you had for us to just act like that didn't happen. Don't say we should've stuck with you 100% when you were the one who broke trust.

You were literally talking in the radical discord planning against us the entire time saying "While I am working behind the scenes to make sure we win. I would at least like to make it appear. That I supported world gov." "And I know how Ditto operates. There is close to a 0% chance that I can ever win with him." I don't get why you are saying this now. It's postgame, why try to save face? I don't care what you did in the game. If you were going for Radicaltopia the entire time, awesome. It's mafia. It's a game. Overall I had fun experience this game, but when I see you write something like this or the numerous messages you sent saying that I was being too cold to you I'm just confused as to what you're trying to do. I was fully transparent about my stance with you the entire time. I said I was happy to continue to talk with you, but that I knew you would have to keep things from me and I was gonna keep things from you. I never tried to mislead you about any of that, so I really don't appreciate this tone of "oh poor me, it's all Ditto's fault that we couldn't work together".
 
Yo.

For a second Mafia game, I thought I did decently given the horrible hand I was dealt once I was in charge. I'm just here to explain some of the things that people have questioned in my rationale.

Part 1: The UncleSam Saga + The Beginning
In the beginning, I both somehow claimed as Strawhat (when I meant to claim as SHF) as well as tried to lie to... all of the other factions. I really didn't trust Sam from the beginning, going so far as to try to investigate him both nights, and the mole probably shouldn't have happened had it not been for my fate the first two nights.

N0: Pidgeon bussed Sam with ECat. Understandable move, given that Sam had just pubclaimed as a SHF, but that made me unable to investigate him and instead learning that ECat was an Evil Pirate (and coincidentally gives me my first shoutout in ElectricityCat for being a great person to talk to throughout the game).

N1: I was thrown in jail before I could investigate Sam, which back then struck me as odd but now makes a lot more sense considering my erratic behavior at the start of the game.

This led me to claim to Sam N2, since I felt like I needed some sort of way to get out of jail that I wouldn't get being isolated from my entire faction. This was compounded by the fact that Sam told me that I had to receive some sort of "message" regarding Bluedoom's death that I didn't receive at first, leading me to disclose the Yeti message I had received (that I was backup burner) in an attempt to show that I was truly a SHF.

Part 2: Everyone Dies + Sam Gets Found Out
Bluedoom's death was fine to me, but then the Govs popped their day-stopper OS on...Yeti for some reason. This was, as others have discussed, a misplay, but also a segue into my next topic. More on that later. Anyways, DLE dying made me rather worried about the future of our faction, and Sunny's death only confirmed to me that someone was going after us with scarily high precision. Me and Bui talked about a potential mole and, to be fair, I did originally suspect him of being one, but we landed on Sam after Galactikitty outed him to us. I cannot tell you how confused I was at that point. Luckily, Haruno subbed in and made contact. However, it took him a few days to figure out the game. In that time, Bass died. I was still in jail.

Part 3: Day-Stopping Abilities
I felt that the prevalence of day-stopping abilities was far too high. Having 3 flat-out day-stoppers as well as a few day disruptors made it so that we never really had a normal cycle after Lechen's death until the endgame. I don't really have much to say, but having them all on Gov as well made it insanely hard to know that we were going to get screwed day-in and day-out until it inevitably happened. The quick hammer in particular needs to have some sort of limitation. It punished us for the crime of having a life outside Mafia and not being there at DL to countervote the Yeti wagon.

Part 4: Everyone Dies, Part 2 + The Mekkah Incident
At this point, I was arguing with both Bui and Haruno (who had gotten into his senses) that we needed to prioritize killing Gov Cores first as Strawhats picked off Gov Radicals. My rationale was as follows:

We are unable to win with the Radicals.
We are unable to win with the dominant faction right now, the World Government.
Both us and the Radicals have an incentive to kill the World Government.
Killing Radicals helps the World Government.
Right now, the World Government is stronger than the Radicals if we include the incentive to kill them off.
Therefore, we should help the Radicals until both forces are pared down to have any chance.

Anyways. I finally got released from jail on Night 4 after 3 days of sitting there being unable to vote or use actions. That was the night where Bui died thanks to a redirect from Gmax (?) to send him into Flandrs, both of whom were electrified. Gov then just killed aska. Pidgeon survived the vote thanks to the vote coalition between him, Ehmcee, and Zorbees, which was nice. The Pinazo vote was moreso to trigger a timeskip (I was poisoned and Zorbees would proceed to vig Ditto (presumably)) than anything, although I did try to convince M2H and AP unsuccessfully to hold off on the TS. I was pubinspected (not very helpful), and then Haruno got dayvigged by Saber (wonderful turn of events there). From then on, it was over for me, but I tried my best to cause some chaos and stick around for as long as possible. I self-voted day 8 since I had promised both sides that I was not voting for or against them, but then Pidgeon died and I was last left standing. I would then die next night after that after delegating the kill to Mekkah.

Oh boy, the Mekkah kill. I originally gave the kill to Mekkah to ask him to kill Jalmont to stop the radicals, but then told him to kill exithe (of course he wouldn't accept, he wouldn't have any incentive to). He apparently told Sam about this (to be fair, I also somewhat admitted to it) which led to the whole plan not working. I was also under the impression that Celever was BGing me, but it turned out they were BGing Jalmont, which meant that M2H had lied to me. Unsure what happened there, but an unfortunate end.

Overall, the game was pretty fun, but what really dampened the experience was Sam's moling attempts being hidden because of events out of my control + me being forced to give info to Sam that I otherwise wouldn't have had to because I didn't get a PM (tbh this was probably a fault of my own) + the sheer amount of chaos every day cycle had that usually resulted in a bad result for SHFs.

Shoutouts to:
ElectricityCat for the reasons mentioned above,
Laurel for being a good host for a (quite complex) OC,
BuiBui and Haruno - I know we had some misunderstandings, but in the short time we worked together we did do decently enough,
AngryPidgeon for being a decent co-strategist who was the main link between me and the rest of the game,
and Lechen for dying day 1

Farewell.
 
Ditto said:
I will say this again because I do think you need to understand it. I was working with you fully, although at the time I did believe you were core as I thought that the radicals wouldn't have 2 Status Killers. You were the person I was communicating and coordinating the most with in the beginning and then you went behind my back and changed actions we had agreed upon. I don't blame you for that from a gameplay standpoint. You were playing to your win conditions and making good plays. What I have a problem with is the sense of entitlement you had for us to just act like that didn't happen. Don't say we should've stuck with you 100% when you were the one who broke trust.

You were literally talking in the radical discord planning against us the entire time saying "While I am working behind the scenes to make sure we win. I would at least like to make it appear. That I supported world gov." "And I know how Ditto operates. There is close to a 0% chance that I can ever win with him." I don't get why you are saying this now. It's postgame, why try to save face? I don't care what you did in the game. If you were going for Radicaltopia the entire time, awesome. It's mafia. It's a game. Overall I had fun experience this game, but when I see you write something like this or the numerous messages you sent saying that I was being too cold to you I'm just confused as to what you're trying to do. I was fully transparent about my stance with you the entire time. I said I was happy to continue to talk with you, but that I knew you would have to keep things from me and I was gonna keep things from you. I never tried to mislead you about any of that, so I really don't appreciate this tone of "oh poor me, it's all Ditto's fault that we couldn't work together".
Click to expand...
Obviously I had to tell the radicals I wasn't going to work with Gov, for the same reason I had to tell you I wasn't going to work with the radicals. I never asked anyone to feel sorry for me, and I'm not trying to 'save face' - I played to my win con, and tried to keep both World Gov and the radicals as strong as I could while trying to make both think I wasn't interested in working with the other.

I should've come clean to you during the night before I did, this is true. I should've been honest that I didn't want to poison AP and that I needed to hit LN or someone else who was my enemy, due to my general lack of KP. I see now that you would've accepted that (or likely would have). I put you in a tough position, which is why you sold me out to LN. I'll admit I wasn't happy about that, but I get why you did it and I respect it. It just left a bit of a rift between us (one which I fully accept my share of the blame for).
 
how exactly was vigilance supposed to work? my role pm said NOTHING about it being a team global, and laurel forgot to send it to me after bluedoom died. i had to ask for it, which apparently every second counts when there is a quickhammer, then "every SHF" was supposed to have received it, but bui and DBD did not receive the message? which should have "outted" them as moles except my role did not at all indicate anyone but me would receive the message.

like i could have caught sam in the hour i had if i knew what i was looking for with that but the results were mismanaged (since he wasn't 'the only one' without the message) and the role pm was very unclear.

also AngryPidgeon my issues with mekkah's role are:
1. the role pm looks like they spent negative time on it. not a single line of flavor. it reads as a sign the game was not actually ready when they shipped it that a role pm was sent in that condition
2. the role is.. bad? no faction has much of a reason to interact with it because all it can do is post wanted posters and then vote with a measly 1 vote. no one-shot either. it's a very limp role. it can't do much on its own and it has to vote at the mercy of what other teams do because it has no voting power to offer, so it just drifts along in the game and hopes that the stars align. it can try talking to all 4 teams to arrange a poster into a lynch but if the teams decide to just, y'know, not vote that guy that day, or with the abundance of day abilities where someone just hijacks the vote, what's he actually gonna do?
 
Yeti said:
also AngryPidgeon my issues with mekkah's role are:
Click to expand...
Ya that makes sense, the flavor was kind of empty. I forget who pointed it out originally but using ChatGPT to write roles was a bit off.

Your point about it being limp is taken, but I think it was by far the most fair neutral role. Gmax and zorbees both had obscene permanent power (nightly redirect, 4 votes). I think all three of them suffered from the problem of being non-interactive but at least Mekkah felt like he was balanced.
 
Here's thoughts, part venting, part constructive criticism for hosts, part findings for any Circus archeologists reading old games. I don't know a whole lot else about the inner and interfaction politics but from what I can tell the game was hosted well and it tried something different which I always appreciate, and generally I didn't see any hosting errors. That's always super impressive for a first time host. BUUUUUUT

I was a neutral, this was my role PM.

Dear Mekkah,

You are "BIG NEWS" morgans, and not only are the headlines of the world economy news paper yours, you also headline the underworld as one of its emperors.

During the night, you may INVESTIGATE [target], learning their full role and storing it for your second ability.

During the night, you may PUBLISH [target you've investigated previously]. Their role PM will then be included with the next day's announcement.

You may do both (or one) of these every night.

You win if, from each faction, one player you previously published is lynched. The lynch on them may be on any day after you publish them for it to count, but it must be a lynch. Once you win, you depart from the game and it goes on without you.
-

This role is everything wrong with neutrals and rushed game design packed into one, and here's why:

1. This is a multifaction game, presumably carefully balanced around the four factions and the total of 12 radicals within them. Neutrals like this can change that balance by aiding one faction over the other, without having an actual stake in it.

2. I have almost no control over reaching my win condition. All I can do is inspect someone, and hope that my target is voted out. I can negotiate with other factions to try and make them do it, but I have nothing to bribe them with other than my 1 vote and future targeting of my role, both of which are worth very little.

3. On the other side of that coin, I have no way to get back at people who go back on their agreements. I have no kills, disruption, or anything like that. I can choose to vote against a faction, but that 1 vote is very unlikely to make a difference.

4. Conversely, I have no enemies. I spent this game telling basically everyone what I was, and I don't think I've been targeted by anything a single time. I played as if I did have some enemies - I thought there might be a neutral that needed me dead, I thought the radicals might not want me alive, but neither ended up being in the case.

5. The role shows a misunderstanding of how plentiful info is in this game. Alliances are going to be public very quickly thanks to public voting. Factions tell each other things to get each other to target and vote others. Other than the first few nights I don't think I revealed anything most people didn't already know. Including myself: even though I had no team, I could fill my sheet almost entirely with the most important info just from votes, deaths, and what people told me. There was one night where I offered up my private inspect to LonelyNess as a friendly gesture (and it ended up failing due to a brain fart on his part lol), other than that I just instantly published everything.

6. I had no team to hang out with. This made the game very boring. I was really looking forward to a multifaction game because I had a good time hanging with my teams in the previous games. I had some people I could talk to but it just wasn't the same, esp cause they had no reason to tell me more than the essential things. They often still told me more than that and I appreciated it, but it changed nothing because I had no powers.

7. The role looks even worse compared to the other neutrals, zorbees and Gmax. They had essentially the same win conditions but much better tools to achieve it with. Words can't describe how unfairly good their roles are compared to mine. But the most egrigious offense was zorbees having 4 votes to my one.

8. I didn't have a oneshot ability, presumably due to the way the hosts worked in their sheet? That's a terrible excuse and I'd expect one of the three people to notice that.

9. The flavor in this game was generally just not there, other than ChatGPT copying some things from a One Piece wiki (or so I assume). That's a choice and that's fine (edit: well it's not fine to use ChatGPT for what should be a labor of passion but that's not my point here). But my role PM is especially barren. In addition, there was some soft confirmation that this game took place pre timeskip, but my character is not pre time skip, so I even had some suspicion on me. Also the name isn't even capitalized properly - that's not a big deal but it just shows a lack of effort.

The hosts have already apologized for all this and I'm glad they understand their mistakes. I hope this is the last time players have to emphasize that games need a lot more time to balance than what hosts usually think. Games don't have to start when they're planned to start. A break is fine. Just don't post sign ups until everything has been ironed out. Let someone else look it over if you're not sure. Ask yourself about every role: how is this going to be played? What effect does this have on the game? Does it have to be in the game?

Especially if it's a neutral. For neutrals I think you have to be able to justify it four times over because 99% of neutrals (ever) suck, and it's very unlikely you thought of that 1% good neutral that quickly. Hosts need to think things over, and game approvers/mods need to ask critical questions and say no a lot. Mods are under no obligation to sweat the game out in less than a week if it's not up to standard. Also if you see a role like mine you need to say no to the game until it's no longer there, that doesn't take long.
 
Oh boy, the Mekkah kill. I originally gave the kill to Mekkah to ask him to kill Jalmont to stop the radicals, but then told him to kill exithe (of course he wouldn't accept, he wouldn't have any incentive to). He apparently told Sam about this (to be fair, I also somewhat admitted to it) which led to the whole plan not working.
Click to expand...

Nah Dead by Daylight I didn't tell anyone about inheriting your kill. I had no reason to tell anyone because it would just make it more likely I'd get disrupted. You must've told someone and they must've told dak or samuel. When they made it clear they knew, they basically said "kill Celever for us and we'll help you win next day". I had no choice at that point. I do really respect giving me the kill though, that's a ballsy move, and I would've killed whoever you asked me to if I wasn't forced to do something else. I wanted to have little impact on the game cause I felt a little bad about deciding it in anyone's favor when I had no stake in it myself.
 
AngryPidgeon said:
Ya that makes sense, the flavor was kind of empty. I forget who pointed it out originally but using ChatGPT to write roles was a bit off.

Your point about it being limp is taken, but I think it was by far the most fair neutral role. Gmax and zorbees both had obscene permanent power (nightly redirect, 4 votes). I think all three of them suffered from the problem of being non-interactive but at least Mekkah felt like he was balanced.
Click to expand...

I think my post outlines why my role wasn't balanced, but I also don't like any of the other neutral roles. They're just high impact versions of my role. It's nice for Gmax and zorbees that they at least get to participate more actively and happy for them that they did, but it also means they caused bigger waves that crash into whoever they don't decide to align with. Case in point: bluedoom getting randed. Also the lack of flavor, and inconsistency about whether electricity gives the affected player a notification, makes me dislike Gmax's implementation.

Also I'm going to assume the roles were not 100% randomized and the hosts deliberately gave the neutrals to mostly experienced players. That makes some sense since they have to work alone, but it also robs all the other teams of that experience.
 
Does Sam’s insistence that he wasn’t hedging hard and didn’t soft backstab the rads before realising he couldn’t win with gov make any sense or is it cap

Feels like cap :P
 
Thanks for hosting and thanks everyone for playing! I say the same thing every time, but as I have gotten older, I realize how enjoyable it has been and continues to be to play mafia on this website. I am very grateful for you all.

I am not really sure I deserved to win more than anyone else but I thought I played better in this one than the other two big games (well mainly by virtue of trying).

I was always pretty committed to the Strawhats from the start and I didn't do anything to jeopardize that until like n3 when I told AP that a kill was being aimed at Celever. Even then, LN's overt paranoia and disavowal of the radicals is what drove me towards the rest of the rads. Ironically if he had just kept playing nice in the chat, it probably would've been very easy to stab me when convenient at the end. I also think that paranoia kept the majority out the loop and hurt the cores in the long run after his death. Fish never claiming also really hurt the cause since he ended up spilling the beans before I did and offing two strawhats :( I told him not to kill Copen!!!

I did feel sad I had to split from the strawhats because I really did like all the people in our team. Alice/Redless/OJ are all awesome (one day we will be teammates for real, Redless). Lamp seemed cool but died prematurely which was sad because lamp actually was pretty smart in not claiming. I felt bad that we never let Copen into the chat but that wasn't something that really ever benefitted me. I like billy and his levelheadedness a lot - it's a real shame he was subbed out because he's a great player and I think could've changed the outcome of the game. Strawhats lost a lot of momentum not having him around. I appreciate Neon listening to me and trying. And of course, there's never a dull moment with LN and he makes these games a lot of fun!

Shout out to Zilo and Sir Fish. Honestly we were a pretty rad set of radicals. No one claimed to LN! Extra props to Zilo for having the same strategy as me and keeping his head down. He also did a lot of planning towards the end game and I wish I had him more looped in from the start. Fish man, you definitely frustrated me! But it worked out so I concede you were right about RADICALTOPIA being the way.

I don't really want to wade into the whole is Sam guilty or not thing but my overall sense is I do feel everyone is being a little harsh on Sam. He put in a lot of effort and deserved the fruits of his labor. I don't really blame him for putting his own interests ahead of everyone else's - I would've wanted to do the same. The govt rads were basically in the driver's seat for the entire late game and pretty much maximized their winning odds. That's why Fish killing strawhats already irked me - we were forcing ourselves into 1 wincon when sam and crew had it set up to go either way. Most of the endgame, I didn't really see what Sam was doing as a "stab" to the radicals. It always made sense to me that he would try and play nice with govt and we would have to rely on him picking the rads in the end. I'm glad it worked out for me, but I couldn't really be too upset had world government played for a solo win. In that sense, zilo was smart to kill exithe to force Sam to be a little nervous about a solo EP win and go with us.

Thanks Laurel and internet for your hard work putting this together. Yes, it wasn't perfect and things could have been done better. Things can always be done better. Overall, things went well and a lot of fun was had. I appreciate your time and effort.
 
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