I played around with it on a grassy terrain team with an AV. unironically was kinda dope but the burns hurt so bad
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
I'm not going to make voting requirements - I am not a strong player - so I don't tend to provide commentary on edge-case mons like Darkrai.
However, I will say that I strongly favor a slow-and-steady approach for bans. If a new set is discovered or popularized, and it runs rampant over the metagame, then I believe we should pause a bit and allow time for adaptations to occur. We've seen this situation twice now in SV, first with Walking Wake as a new mon, and then with Gouging Fire and the Breaking Swipes set. In both cases, over the course of the suspect, players found counterplay and the metagame adjusted, and both survived their suspect tests.
We're already seeing adaptations like Tinkaton being popularized, and the newly popularized mons and sets have more use than just checking Darkrai, so I'd rather wait an extra week than start a suspect test that ends up an obvious No Ban halfway through the testing period.
Seconding keeping an eye on Darkrai rather than testing it asap. Sure, it’s starting to flex its muscles as a cocaine Gengar that’s absurdly punishing for balance. But testing it prematurely would be a terrible cal even if you think it’s broken.
I think any test right now would be a close test, with a good shot anything would stay. Be it Darkrai, Kyurem, or Ogerpon, I can easily see it going like how Kyurem’s first test or Gouging’s test went. Darkrai is the new hotness in the tier rn and is making a name for itself, but similar to Gouging Fire I can see a world where its weaknesses do become more pronounced and its test burns out. The worst scenario is a Kyurem situation, where Darkrai remains a borderline case but we just don’t have the votes to do anything. Darkrai did get a 3.5 from qualified players, which is worth keeping an eye on. That being said, this would be lower than every non BloodMoon suspect this generation in terms of survey results. It’s also worth noting among non qualified results, it’s only a 3.1. To me, that just says that we probably don’t have the raw numbers to ban Darkrai right now whether it’s a problem or not.
If you think Darkrai is a problem, let it marinate for a bit. The tier is not in an untenable position, far from it. I might not like the tier rn (tho full transparency Darkrai would not be in the first three things I would look at personally) but this tier is fine. It’s in a good enough spot for tours and ladder alike. It’s not my favorite OU meta, but it isn’t a dumpster fire. I think giving Darkrai time to marinate would be the best call to see whether it’s a priority for us.
I think any test right now would be a close test, with a good shot anything would stay. Be it Darkrai, Kyurem, or Ogerpon, I can easily see it going like how Kyurem’s first test or Gouging’s test went. Darkrai is the new hotness in the tier rn and is making a name for itself, but similar to Gouging Fire I can see a world where its weaknesses do become more pronounced and its test burns out. The worst scenario is a Kyurem situation, where Darkrai remains a borderline case but we just don’t have the votes to do anything. Darkrai did get a 3.5 from qualified players, which is worth keeping an eye on. That being said, this would be lower than every non BloodMoon suspect this generation in terms of survey results. It’s also worth noting among non qualified results, it’s only a 3.1. To me, that just says that we probably don’t have the raw numbers to ban Darkrai right now whether it’s a problem or not.
If you think Darkrai is a problem, let it marinate for a bit. The tier is not in an untenable position, far from it. I might not like the tier rn (tho full transparency Darkrai would not be in the first three things I would look at personally) but this tier is fine. It’s in a good enough spot for tours and ladder alike. It’s not my favorite OU meta, but it isn’t a dumpster fire. I think giving Darkrai time to marinate would be the best call to see whether it’s a priority for us.
I wanted to take a look at this weekends world cup teams to show how some structures are dealing with threats like darkrai and kyurem
gxe
vs Raptor 
on gxe's team we have a pretty popular rillaboom + Garganacl core. this team style gives Garg some extra recovery which helps it switch in on things like darkrai dark pulse, kyurem ice beam, and can recover or even tera to win a 1v1 matchup. Rillaboom also threatens huge damage with grassy glide and can u-turn to keep momentum on either a darkrai switching out or a kyurem switching in. Raptors team uses defensive moltres as a pivot core with Slowking, u-turn Gliscor, and volt switch Bolt. This structure has less direct answers to something like ice beam + dark pulse darkrai, but it stays ahead of the pace with pivots that can threaten most of the meta. Weavile for raptor and Zamazenta for gxe play similar roles of that fast physical revenger that can clean up weakened special threats.
lax
vs Raptor 
lax brings a strong bulky offense with the dreaded double nasty plot darkrai + ghold, alongside a defensive core of AV hatterene, dragon tail dragonite, and rocky helmet Ting Lu. Hatterene with AV can probably 1v1 an unsuspecting darkrai or kyurem, while Ting Lu and dragonite offer phasing capabilities to deter opposing set up. Dragonite also a great switch in to Ogerpon. Raptor brings a fatter balance featuring the rare weezing which can match up decently against Darkrai and Kyurem as well as defogging and wisping on gholdengo and garganacl. Once again the salt mon is here as garg even takes down a covert cloak gholdengo after a helpful knock.
lax
vs aesf 
lax brings an extreme 4 assault vests this game to lure opposing special threats while packing a strong physical backbone with tusk, lando, zama, and okidogi. This is the epitome of bulky offense, having answers to every mon and being able to hit back. aesf brings the unranked-on-vr Slither Wing as a strong bulky pokemon with few common weaknesses among top threats, combining with fast pressure in Deoxys and Ogerpon. This team is interesting and creative but ultimately had no answer for the extreme bulk of lax's team.
Overall its clear that these are maybe not what we might consider standard builds on the ladder, with pokemon taking different sets or relying on underused strats like volt turn or assault vest to counter current trends. To me these are a great example of how the metagame is shifting to contain the current top dogs, and I expect to see more unique new ideas as the weeks unfold
gxe
vs Raptor on gxe's team we have a pretty popular rillaboom + Garganacl core. this team style gives Garg some extra recovery which helps it switch in on things like darkrai dark pulse, kyurem ice beam, and can recover or even tera to win a 1v1 matchup. Rillaboom also threatens huge damage with grassy glide and can u-turn to keep momentum on either a darkrai switching out or a kyurem switching in. Raptors team uses defensive moltres as a pivot core with Slowking, u-turn Gliscor, and volt switch Bolt. This structure has less direct answers to something like ice beam + dark pulse darkrai, but it stays ahead of the pace with pivots that can threaten most of the meta. Weavile for raptor and Zamazenta for gxe play similar roles of that fast physical revenger that can clean up weakened special threats.
lax
vs Raptor lax brings a strong bulky offense with the dreaded double nasty plot darkrai + ghold, alongside a defensive core of AV hatterene, dragon tail dragonite, and rocky helmet Ting Lu. Hatterene with AV can probably 1v1 an unsuspecting darkrai or kyurem, while Ting Lu and dragonite offer phasing capabilities to deter opposing set up. Dragonite also a great switch in to Ogerpon. Raptor brings a fatter balance featuring the rare weezing which can match up decently against Darkrai and Kyurem as well as defogging and wisping on gholdengo and garganacl. Once again the salt mon is here as garg even takes down a covert cloak gholdengo after a helpful knock.
lax
vs aesf lax brings an extreme 4 assault vests this game to lure opposing special threats while packing a strong physical backbone with tusk, lando, zama, and okidogi. This is the epitome of bulky offense, having answers to every mon and being able to hit back. aesf brings the unranked-on-vr Slither Wing as a strong bulky pokemon with few common weaknesses among top threats, combining with fast pressure in Deoxys and Ogerpon. This team is interesting and creative but ultimately had no answer for the extreme bulk of lax's team.
Overall its clear that these are maybe not what we might consider standard builds on the ladder, with pokemon taking different sets or relying on underused strats like volt turn or assault vest to counter current trends. To me these are a great example of how the metagame is shifting to contain the current top dogs, and I expect to see more unique new ideas as the weeks unfold
Finchinator or any council member, I was wondering if council is looking into a suspect of Darkrai/Kyurem right now given their support.
I think suspecting would be a good move forward. I've seen calls to hold off from players who want to see the metagame adapt, and as sympathetic as I am to that, I think that the most beneficial thing right now would be a move forward. We've had over a month of seeing the metagame in the wake of the Volcarona suspect; I don't think waiting any longer for action is what we need right now.
I think suspecting would be a good move forward. I've seen calls to hold off from players who want to see the metagame adapt, and as sympathetic as I am to that, I think that the most beneficial thing right now would be a move forward. We've had over a month of seeing the metagame in the wake of the Volcarona suspect; I don't think waiting any longer for action is what we need right now.
As far as I can tell, opinions are pretty split between suspect now vs later. I trust the group of them will vote well whenever they decide whatever action on the radar mons.
While Darkrai is certainly bringing out lower tier mons, Tinkaton specifically, I think she certainly isn't a shitmon or anything, and the metagame will likely continue to adapt, even were a suspect to start right now, over the two weeks.
While Darkrai is certainly bringing out lower tier mons, Tinkaton specifically, I think she certainly isn't a shitmon or anything, and the metagame will likely continue to adapt, even were a suspect to start right now, over the two weeks.
Venuesaur said:
I believe Finchinator indicated that a handful of OU council members want tiering action on Darkrai, and 5/10 is not a majority, so there will likely not be a Darkrai suspect at this time. And if Darkrai can't get support for a suspect test right now, Kyurem certainly won't.
It is a situation in which the council must think carefully, just banning Darkrai will not be enough to make the metagame healthy and enjoyable. A sequence of bans will be necessary for stability with lower powercreep.
I'm part of the 76% majority who pushed the moth away, hoping things like Waterpon and Kyurem would follow. BUT IF broken checks broken are to be accepted as the identity of the generation just like Terastal, keeping Darkrai, so it is less worse to unban Volcarona next imo.
Feedback has been given, Finchinator and the council will certainly give us their verdict in the coming days.
I'm part of the 76% majority who pushed the moth away, hoping things like Waterpon and Kyurem would follow. BUT IF broken checks broken are to be accepted as the identity of the generation just like Terastal, keeping Darkrai, so it is less worse to unban Volcarona next imo.
Feedback has been given, Finchinator and the council will certainly give us their verdict in the coming days.
No one is unbanning Volc. That would be an insult to the people who voted to ban it (a sizable majority at that). This tier isn’t going to be defined by broken checks broken, nor is it accepted as an identity. And Tera isn’t kept around for the idea of an identity either, but because majority generally doesn’t find it to be bannable at this stage.
Tera is also legal in the first place because the vote created a Ross Perot-type situation. People are used it it an it’s not getting banned now though.
I voted for Volcarona to be banned and I believe broken vs broken is the wrong way to go, I really hope in the long run you are correct.
However, if there is no consensus on continuing with bans to reduce and stabilize powercreep, broken vs broken with Volcarona is less worse than without Volcarona. And I wouldn't be insulted by that.
Call it generational identity or not, it's how Gen IX will be remembered after they stop being CG if more bans don't occur. I voted ban on Volcarona to prevent this, I hope more suspects occur and that you are right, but I am just poiting the current reality of the facts. Whether they are pleasant or not.
Terastallization
Action: 205
No action: 141
59.25% action -- in order to act on Terastallization, we needed to hit 60% action, which is now mathematically impossible.
The majority wanted action in Tera, but due to Smogon's current majority policy, it remained and is now far from having enough support.
Much has already been elaborated and cried over, and it is no longer the place to elaborate now. Finchinator said it would conduct a Policy Review at a future time prior to the launch of Generation X.
I think rai is broken too but this post is so disingenuous lol. Darkrai is ALWAYS going to be +2 and Tera’d and e belt so you can get these calcs? Cmon lol. That first calc in particular just proves that ting Lu is a solid check. Half the meta is doing 70% to ting Lu if they’re +2
Tbh the gen seems fucked to me. Darkrai appears to be the final ban if it’s even going to go. All the top players want to keep everything else. I understand patience between surveys and suspects, but this is extremely slow moving to the point that nothing is really getting better. Just one Tera-abusing set up threat replacing another over and over.
In my opinion, the best way to proceed with tiering right now is a Darkrai suspect test.
I am going to cover a few points in this post:
Traditional "checks" or "counters" to Darkrai tend to be Blissey, Zamazenta and Clodsire while fringe Pokemon like Assault Vest Hoopa-Unbound, Tinkaton, or Iron Hands can do the trick, too. It gets a lot messier in practice though as Darkrai has ways to circumvent everything with different variations or Tera usage while various other Pokemon are able to check it with the right Tera or positioning of their own, too. Some examples would be Tera Poison Darkrai, which is easily most common, letting it survive Zamazenta or flip-the-script against Fairy types. On the other side, it is possible for slower Pokemon like Primarina to Tera Steel or Gholdengo to Tera Fairy and take out a chipped Darkrai. This type of exchange is pretty healthy and one of the most fundamental strategies to playing any metagame with Tera, but my issue is how small the pool of Pokemon that are secure against Darkrai overall actually is and how reliant counterplay is on getting single turns correct, especially when they frequently rely on exhausting your Tera and avoiding a flinch or freeze.
If you take a step back, you realize teams frequently will need multiple Pokemon faster than Darkrai or at least one Pokemon faster than it alongside strong priority just to be safe from a potential sweep. On top of this, many teams want to use a Tera type (or two to cover various positions) to cover it if you're on the back-foot. Some teams can get away from this if they commit to trading Ting Lu for leaving Darkrai very weak, going full offense with a commitment to tempo or trading, or going very bulky with defensive stalwarts like the aforementioned Blissey or Clodsire, but this is not really not enough counterplay. It leaves balanced teams in disarray (yes, so do some other things, but not to this degree), it makes bulky-offense very limited in personnel (again: other things contribute, but Darkrai stands out relatively speaking), and has a trickled-down impact that a lot of people do not even realize when we look at styles used, inflated usage, etc. Overall, Darkrai just does not have enough checks or counters, making it broken.
Pivoting to "Why we shouldn’t be scared or worried about a post-Darkrai metagame", I recognize that some people fear that if we remove Darkrai, Pokemon like Gliscor lose a key offensive check. I do not typically tier with this mindset and it is not really what we are supposed to do by design, but I think another part of my job is addressing the needs of my playerbase. Multiple council members have cited these concerns and others in the thread, too, so I figured it would be a good time to chime in.
If Darkrai is banned, which is no guarantee -- the goal of a suspect is to let people decide, not to ban always -- upon being tested, I do not think Gliscor becomes an issue. It is already very good of course, but a clear step below DLC1 and Darkrai is far from the only Pokemon holding it back. Since DLC1, the tier added Kyurem and Deoxys-Speed, two Pokemon that are faster with Ice moves. Serperior is also trending up now, which 1v1s all Gliscor and can outright abuse certain sets. In addition to this, Pokemon during DLC1 like Weavile (low usage, B/B+ on VR), Ice Fang Zamazenta (no notable DLC1 usage), and Sinistcha (barely viable in DLC1, but owns SD variants) are all used much more nowadays and not only for Gliscor. This is not all there is to it either as we have seen some fun Tera Ice lures recently such as Iron Moth, Zapdos, Landorus-T, Glimmora, and Cinderace -- I hesitate to include these as they are more fringe, but the point is people feel confident loading them at the very least.
Yes, Darkrai is very good and it is a fast Pokemon that can OHKO Gliscor with Ice Beam while not being OHKO'd by Gliscor. However, it is not able to take more than 1-2 attacks from Gliscor, Toxic can put it on a timer, and SD Tera Normal/Water/Fairy can flip the entire situation with an SD or attack on the swap. The point is that Darkrai is not singlehandedly holding back Gliscor from being broken, there are various other checks to it that were introduced, and Gliscor is able to do its thing regardless for the most part.
And finally if Gliscor truly is broken without Darkrai, we can just act on it like we did during DLC1, which is how tiering is intended to go. The funny part is people saying that then we will be stuck in Zapdos purgatory with Para and Confusion deciding games -- I think this is a stretch at this point (like people saying Alomomola would be a genuine problem without Ogerpon-Wellspring). Similar to the dynamic with Gliscor, we have a ton of different Zapdos answers around, too. Kyurem and Raging Bolt are now top Pokemon when they did not previously exist during late DLC1 when Zapdos surged. Garganacl is peaking, Knock Off usage is at a high point, and Slowking-Galar has been a top Pokemon.
The point is that refusing to act on Darkrai because of fear for Gliscor gets a bit silly when we look at the whole metagame. And worrying about the same fear surrounding Gliscor and something like Zapdos is also a bit silly. I really do not think this should stand in our way.
Finally, regarding "Why the timing and fit of this suspect is appropriate", this is a bit harder of a discussion as we all have different, justifiable timelines in mind. My main thought is Volcarona was banned 2 whole months ago now, we had the entire first round of WCoP go down, and the survey showed support, so it should be on the table for a suspect now. This is more than enough time with sufficient developents given historical trends and my personal opinion.
I hope we can discuss suspecting Darkrai and I personally feel it would be the best next step for SV OU.
I am going to cover a few points in this post:
- The lack of defensive counterplay to Darkrai and the mixed bag of offensive counterplay
- Why we shouldn’t be scared or worried about a post-Darkrai metagame
- Why the timing and fit of this suspect is appropriate
- Not wanting to risk removing Darkrai due to the chain reaction banning it may cause (see my second bullet and later part of this post)
- Preferring other actions such as retests (Volcarona or Palafin) or even other suspect targets (various Pokemon, an item, and a move)
- Wanting the tier to remain as is due to enjoying the status quo or wanting to give it more time to settle after the Volcarona ban
Traditional "checks" or "counters" to Darkrai tend to be Blissey, Zamazenta and Clodsire while fringe Pokemon like Assault Vest Hoopa-Unbound, Tinkaton, or Iron Hands can do the trick, too. It gets a lot messier in practice though as Darkrai has ways to circumvent everything with different variations or Tera usage while various other Pokemon are able to check it with the right Tera or positioning of their own, too. Some examples would be Tera Poison Darkrai, which is easily most common, letting it survive Zamazenta or flip-the-script against Fairy types. On the other side, it is possible for slower Pokemon like Primarina to Tera Steel or Gholdengo to Tera Fairy and take out a chipped Darkrai. This type of exchange is pretty healthy and one of the most fundamental strategies to playing any metagame with Tera, but my issue is how small the pool of Pokemon that are secure against Darkrai overall actually is and how reliant counterplay is on getting single turns correct, especially when they frequently rely on exhausting your Tera and avoiding a flinch or freeze.
If you take a step back, you realize teams frequently will need multiple Pokemon faster than Darkrai or at least one Pokemon faster than it alongside strong priority just to be safe from a potential sweep. On top of this, many teams want to use a Tera type (or two to cover various positions) to cover it if you're on the back-foot. Some teams can get away from this if they commit to trading Ting Lu for leaving Darkrai very weak, going full offense with a commitment to tempo or trading, or going very bulky with defensive stalwarts like the aforementioned Blissey or Clodsire, but this is not really not enough counterplay. It leaves balanced teams in disarray (yes, so do some other things, but not to this degree), it makes bulky-offense very limited in personnel (again: other things contribute, but Darkrai stands out relatively speaking), and has a trickled-down impact that a lot of people do not even realize when we look at styles used, inflated usage, etc. Overall, Darkrai just does not have enough checks or counters, making it broken.
Pivoting to "Why we shouldn’t be scared or worried about a post-Darkrai metagame", I recognize that some people fear that if we remove Darkrai, Pokemon like Gliscor lose a key offensive check. I do not typically tier with this mindset and it is not really what we are supposed to do by design, but I think another part of my job is addressing the needs of my playerbase. Multiple council members have cited these concerns and others in the thread, too, so I figured it would be a good time to chime in.
If Darkrai is banned, which is no guarantee -- the goal of a suspect is to let people decide, not to ban always -- upon being tested, I do not think Gliscor becomes an issue. It is already very good of course, but a clear step below DLC1 and Darkrai is far from the only Pokemon holding it back. Since DLC1, the tier added Kyurem and Deoxys-Speed, two Pokemon that are faster with Ice moves. Serperior is also trending up now, which 1v1s all Gliscor and can outright abuse certain sets. In addition to this, Pokemon during DLC1 like Weavile (low usage, B/B+ on VR), Ice Fang Zamazenta (no notable DLC1 usage), and Sinistcha (barely viable in DLC1, but owns SD variants) are all used much more nowadays and not only for Gliscor. This is not all there is to it either as we have seen some fun Tera Ice lures recently such as Iron Moth, Zapdos, Landorus-T, Glimmora, and Cinderace -- I hesitate to include these as they are more fringe, but the point is people feel confident loading them at the very least.
Yes, Darkrai is very good and it is a fast Pokemon that can OHKO Gliscor with Ice Beam while not being OHKO'd by Gliscor. However, it is not able to take more than 1-2 attacks from Gliscor, Toxic can put it on a timer, and SD Tera Normal/Water/Fairy can flip the entire situation with an SD or attack on the swap. The point is that Darkrai is not singlehandedly holding back Gliscor from being broken, there are various other checks to it that were introduced, and Gliscor is able to do its thing regardless for the most part.
And finally if Gliscor truly is broken without Darkrai, we can just act on it like we did during DLC1, which is how tiering is intended to go. The funny part is people saying that then we will be stuck in Zapdos purgatory with Para and Confusion deciding games -- I think this is a stretch at this point (like people saying Alomomola would be a genuine problem without Ogerpon-Wellspring). Similar to the dynamic with Gliscor, we have a ton of different Zapdos answers around, too. Kyurem and Raging Bolt are now top Pokemon when they did not previously exist during late DLC1 when Zapdos surged. Garganacl is peaking, Knock Off usage is at a high point, and Slowking-Galar has been a top Pokemon.
The point is that refusing to act on Darkrai because of fear for Gliscor gets a bit silly when we look at the whole metagame. And worrying about the same fear surrounding Gliscor and something like Zapdos is also a bit silly. I really do not think this should stand in our way.
Finally, regarding "Why the timing and fit of this suspect is appropriate", this is a bit harder of a discussion as we all have different, justifiable timelines in mind. My main thought is Volcarona was banned 2 whole months ago now, we had the entire first round of WCoP go down, and the survey showed support, so it should be on the table for a suspect now. This is more than enough time with sufficient developents given historical trends and my personal opinion.
I hope we can discuss suspecting Darkrai and I personally feel it would be the best next step for SV OU.
I disagree on unbanning Volcarona - if the surveys are accurate, there has been a marked increase in enjoyment after it has been banned.
Even if we're to believe this generation ends up being the broken-checks-broken hellhole generation (and for now I'll cope and believe it will not be the case), I'd rather wait and see people scraping the bottom of the barrel looking for answers like Tink and some recent Porygon2 sets I've seen instead of Volc, which is one of the flagships of Tera volatility. It'd temper Kyurem a bit of course, but then we'd have another monstrosity to permanently deal with, and that is not only worse but also, I believe, a sign of giving up on tiering until Gen X.
Damn its been two whole months huh?
Probably won't get reqs but the personal goal is being good enough to do it before gen X. Curious how things will pan out, especially with vocal players like CTC back. I think it'll be an interesting thread if kept civil, with probably more calcs and shitmon flinging on both sides than the past few to really see how overwhelming Darkrai truly is.
Probably won't get reqs but the personal goal is being good enough to do it before gen X. Curious how things will pan out, especially with vocal players like CTC back. I think it'll be an interesting thread if kept civil, with probably more calcs and shitmon flinging on both sides than the past few to really see how overwhelming Darkrai truly is.
Rai is limiting but its also a nice queen piece that fits on all kinds of teams, similar to other mons like Dragonite and Zamazenta. Boots NP gives a lot of teams outs against more offensive teams while also being a set with a good amount of depth between clever moveset tweeks, Teras, etc. Furthermore, being a fast mon with good coverage lets it revenge kill other very fast threats I suspect its ban might actually hurt balance / bulky offense more since there one be one less mon to revenge kill SD Gliscor, Ogerpon-W, Ghold, etc. Granted, one could argue that the same also applies to Woger, as its ban would open the floodgates that is Mola + OP breaker taking over the meta - which also hurts balance a lot - so there might not be one "golden" path to explore here.
The main saving grace is that a rai ban does likely open up a few threats that are below the 125 speed tier, which will be nice for me and other Meow + Ghold enjoyers out there.
The main saving grace is that a rai ban does likely open up a few threats that are below the 125 speed tier, which will be nice for me and other Meow + Ghold enjoyers out there.
After playing for a while this couple of weeks... I don't know if Darkrai's the mon to ban, tbh. I'm gonna share my arguments here answering to Finch's post.
First of all, I think that mentioning all of this mons and not A-Muk is quite sad. Except for a trick choice item (that even then, Muk can win the 1v1 from there) A-Muk is unironically a Darkrai counter. The only outplay the Darkrai user has is freezing. Aside from that, Muks eats it from breakfast. You can even switch in on its NP and by Drain Punch + Protect healing you win even if they land multiple FB (Which is unreliable tho).
Also, yes, A-Muk is bad aganist already poisoned gliscor (because it can't switch in before since it fears losing Toxic Orb) but if you pair it with stuff that takes advantage of Gliscor coming in like Kyurem / Waterpon, A-Muk is a solid pick and actually much better at stopping Darkrai than Clodsire, Blissey or Zama. All of them fear tera / cover move, Muk does not. A-Muk is pretty solid aganist most of the special attackers trending in OU. And while I understand that a single mon does not fix the problem, it's something I wanted to point out.
Priority just fucks Darkrai, and there are some really easy to slap mons than can revenge kill. DNite + Gambit (which is not a bad combo by any means) stops Darkrai in its tracks if it's not wisp and gets a wisp on both either if teras or not. Did Darkrai tera? Ok now it's weak to Gambit and Gambit can tera out of Focus Blast weakness. Tera was wasted / Darkrai didn't use it? Cool Dnite wins 1v1.
Vacuum Wave from IValiant and Grassy Glide from Rilla if not tera, Zamazenta outspeeding, same with Pult, Banded Scizor, Speed Proto Boost Tusk/ IValiant... You can slap a lot of stuff that can revenge Darkrai and/or stop a sweep. Raging Bolt with Specs can kill after a bit of chip damage with Thunderclap for example. And I think that most of this mons can find a place in a balance team / BO team. I haven't mentioned Waterpon / Prim either that can exchange their tera to win the 1v1, or Speed Boost Iron Moth that if Darkrai gets chipped it can actually use it to start its sweep, etcetera.
Also, tera is a valuable resource both players have. If Darkrai wasted tera to get a kill / boost, now you have the tera advantage. I know it's a kinda weak argument, but exchanging teras is one of the points of keeping it in the tier tbh. If the argument for -almost- any broken mon is gonna be its tera options, then... We could seriously debate about tera? But because we're not going to take that path, we have to accept that exchanging tera vs Darkrai is a legitimate strategy.
I do 100% agree that thinking on a "post X" meta should not be a clear argument aganist banning something. If Gliscor or any mon gets out of hand, we can ban it, that's it.
Finally, if Darkrai does get banned (which I wouldn't hate, I just think that it's not the priority) we should unban sleep, or at least look it. I don't think that Breloom, Amoonguss, Yawn Clodsire or even Hypnosis A-Ninetales are gonna break the meta or even be unhealthy. In fact Amoonguss with Spore would justify it on teams and add to the tier a solid Waterpon check.
First of all, I think that mentioning all of this mons and not A-Muk is quite sad. Except for a trick choice item (that even then, Muk can win the 1v1 from there) A-Muk is unironically a Darkrai counter. The only outplay the Darkrai user has is freezing. Aside from that, Muks eats it from breakfast. You can even switch in on its NP and by Drain Punch + Protect healing you win even if they land multiple FB (Which is unreliable tho).
Also, yes, A-Muk is bad aganist already poisoned gliscor (because it can't switch in before since it fears losing Toxic Orb) but if you pair it with stuff that takes advantage of Gliscor coming in like Kyurem / Waterpon, A-Muk is a solid pick and actually much better at stopping Darkrai than Clodsire, Blissey or Zama. All of them fear tera / cover move, Muk does not. A-Muk is pretty solid aganist most of the special attackers trending in OU. And while I understand that a single mon does not fix the problem, it's something I wanted to point out.
I think that the tier has answers to tame Darkrai most of the time.
Priority just fucks Darkrai, and there are some really easy to slap mons than can revenge kill. DNite + Gambit (which is not a bad combo by any means) stops Darkrai in its tracks if it's not wisp and gets a wisp on both either if teras or not. Did Darkrai tera? Ok now it's weak to Gambit and Gambit can tera out of Focus Blast weakness. Tera was wasted / Darkrai didn't use it? Cool Dnite wins 1v1.
Vacuum Wave from IValiant and Grassy Glide from Rilla if not tera, Zamazenta outspeeding, same with Pult, Banded Scizor, Speed Proto Boost Tusk/ IValiant... You can slap a lot of stuff that can revenge Darkrai and/or stop a sweep. Raging Bolt with Specs can kill after a bit of chip damage with Thunderclap for example. And I think that most of this mons can find a place in a balance team / BO team. I haven't mentioned Waterpon / Prim either that can exchange their tera to win the 1v1, or Speed Boost Iron Moth that if Darkrai gets chipped it can actually use it to start its sweep, etcetera.
Also, tera is a valuable resource both players have. If Darkrai wasted tera to get a kill / boost, now you have the tera advantage. I know it's a kinda weak argument, but exchanging teras is one of the points of keeping it in the tier tbh. If the argument for -almost- any broken mon is gonna be its tera options, then... We could seriously debate about tera? But because we're not going to take that path, we have to accept that exchanging tera vs Darkrai is a legitimate strategy.
I do 100% agree that thinking on a "post X" meta should not be a clear argument aganist banning something. If Gliscor or any mon gets out of hand, we can ban it, that's it.
Finally, if Darkrai does get banned (which I wouldn't hate, I just think that it's not the priority) we should unban sleep, or at least look it. I don't think that Breloom, Amoonguss, Yawn Clodsire or even Hypnosis A-Ninetales are gonna break the meta or even be unhealthy. In fact Amoonguss with Spore would justify it on teams and add to the tier a solid Waterpon check.
I haven’t seen A-Muk in multiple months despite playing hundreds of games. It is not really on the radar as good and doesn’t fit many styles at all. This is a nitpick that doesn’t change the degree of serious counterplay.
Yeah I think banning kyurem would be another path to a better meta that I would much prefer to be honest as I personally think banning kyurem would open up balance in huge ways. As someone who doesn't personally see darkrai as broken, posts like these are important to show the other side of the coin where some think Darkrai is fine.
Yeah after thinking about Darkrai for a while, I have come to a conclusion on how I feel about it.
I've made up my mind on Darkrai and while I personally think darkrai is really strong, I personally think it is fine as it does have a fair amount of hurdles it has to overcome in order to get to the point where it can sweep. In order for it to get nasty plot off due to it being kinda frail-ish and oftentimes meaning darkrai has to take a hit to get the np off, which often puts it in priority range and oftentimes requires good prediction to get np off without getting darkrai chipped during setup. It also having to make sacrifices in its movepool and evs to beat everything it wants as it can beat everything like gouging but can't beat everything at once. It also has to rely on some moves that miss a lot (cough Focus Blast cough) that can cause it to to lose to things it should be able to beat. Darkrai to me feels like a Gouging Fire situation where its shortcomings will start to show in a bit, and I personally think Darkrai is being overblown to a degree despite the fact I completely understand why people think it is broken, but personally I think it has enough shortcomings to where I don't think it is broken personally, even if Darkrai does create annoying guessing games at times.
I have far more problems with Kyurem as a presence at the moment since unlike darkrai it has multiple sets that can guarantee to break your team down and genuinely has no switchins even if it is hazard weak, but I do understand the other perspective of wanting to suspect darkrai first
One day my precious pile of toxic liquid will be appreciated...
Talking seriously now, I think it's hella underated, I've been using it since the Volc meta and it's quite good imo. I think that it can be a bit hard to fit but with good team mates it can fix Darkrai's matchup:)
I was the biggest Muk fan before Gliscor appeared, but with it in the Tier, its simply very bad. Yes, you can take advantage of Gliscor with other Mons, but most of the time you will be playing with 5 vs 6 if you use Muk and opponent uses Gliscor. Maybe if Gliscor is banned instead of Darkrai, there won,t be a need to ban Darkrai since Muk (and some other niche Mons that are made unviable by Gliscor) will be much better. As for now, though, there is much less support to an action on Gliscor (which I personally consider more problematic than Darkrai) than on Darkrai, so if Darkrai is the given Suspect, I will be voting Ban and then will support action on other Mons later. I think the Meta needs several Bans to be better (its already not as bad as it used to be, Volca's Ban was very positive), so even if the Suspected Mon is not the first one of my list (that would be Gholdengo, but if we are only choosing the realistic Mons for a Suspect, then Waterpon), I am still supporting the hammer most of the time.
Stole the team you posted a while back and yeah, Muk-A is insanely good (when Gliscor isn't on the other team of course). Half the time I don't even use it for Rai - its main benefit comes from its good match-up into Gking, letting you fish for a devastating Knock on its partner Tusk / Ting-Lu, both of which are easily crippled by poison & will get worn down fast by the poison damage. Another side benefit is that it is one of the best mons against various cheese sweepers like Latias since its immune to stored power while not being weak to fighting coverage. Add on good MUs against other threatening mons like Ghold, and I think it has some nice value, even with Gliscor being so annoying.