Serious The Politics Thread

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re: RL's voting posts

There are so many points of disagreement here that going over all of them would take way longer than I'm willing to spend, but the one thing I'll say is that if we're crediting "vote lesser of two evils" with getting us to where we are right now, then we also have to credit it with the rise of Trump. We can't just praise a strategy for the good bits, but then anything bad we say "oh that's people not following the strategy hard enough."

I think a key piece of this that liberals miss is that if the people are disillusioned or for any reason aren't committed to a strategy--in other words, in this case, if they're not 'voting hard enough'--that in and of itself is a weakness of the strategy.

The liberal tendency (imo) is to treat people like npcs and simply talk down on them for not realizing how everything would be so much better if they voted for the lesser of two evils. If Trump were to win the electoral college and popular vote, I think the general response from liberals (aside from blaming foreign governments) would be a throwing up of the hands and exclaiming "oh my gosh, I'm surrounded by idiots." No self-reflection needed: the strategy should simply be followed as a matter of course, and if the people aren't with that, then it's the people who are flawed, not the strategy.

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re: Hamas

The only beef I do have with a mod action on one of my posts in this thread is the one where I included a link to the Hamas pamphlet where they explain their perspective on Al-Aqsa Flood. A mod deleted the link to the pamphlet, and I disagree with that, but that is not where I have beef--I actually thought that they might delete the whole post, but they left up all of the most important parts, which is more than I thought I would get!

Where I do have beef is that the moderator left a note in the post which misrepresented Hamas as saying that 'attacks on civilians are necessary.' It's not an exaggeration to say that that is the exact opposite of what Hamas says in the pamphlet. Now if someone were to read that post, they would be subjected to false information about the pamphlet. This is another reason why I highly recommend people actually read the full pamphlet if they haven't yet. Hamas has been completely misrepresented in various ways throughout this genocide, and so if we want to avoid being misled, it's critically important to look into their perspective directly from the source.
 
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lilyhollow said:
The liberal tendency (imo) is to treat people like npcs and simply talk down on them for not realizing how everything would be so much better if they voted for the lesser of two evils. If Trump were to win the electoral college and popular vote, I think the general response from liberals (aside from blaming foreign governments) would be a throwing up of the hands and exclaiming "oh my gosh, I'm surrounded by idiots." No self-reflection needed: the strategy should simply be followed as a matter of course, and if the people aren't with that, then it's the people who are flawed, not the strategy.
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My personal observation supports this. I think that it mostly comes down to individual failings being easier to conceive of than systemic ones. If the people of a liberal democracy elect a tyrant, it's easier to assume that the democracy must have just had the wrong voters.
 
lilyhollow said:
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re: Hamas

The only beef I do have with a mod action on one of my posts in this thread is the one where I included a link to the Hamas pamphlet where they explain their perspective on Al-Aqsa Flood. A mod deleted the link to the pamphlet, and I disagree with that, but that is not where I have beef--I actually thought that they might delete the whole post, but they left up all of the most important parts, which is more than I thought I would get!

Where I do have beef is that the moderator left a note in the post which misrepresented Hamas as saying that 'attacks on civilians are necessary.' It's not an exaggeration to say that that is the exact opposite of what Hamas says in the pamphlet. Now if someone were to read that post, they would be subjected to false information about the pamphlet. This is another reason why I highly recommend people actually read the full pamphlet if they haven't yet. Hamas has been completely misrepresented in various ways throughout this genocide, and so if we want to avoid being misled, it's critically important to look into their perspective directly from the source.
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Gonna start citing Klan pamphlets to show the Klan is not racist (please ignore the fact the Klan leader who published it tried to murder Black people at a Nazi rally)

You keep wondering why I don't think you're a leftist and here you are literally telling us to accept a theocratic fascist paramilitary's propaganda at face value. We're beyond parody now, you're just behaving like a walking Zionist talking point.

Also: it's fucking insane to think linking to terrorist propaganda on a forum for a children's game is remotely okay. What the fuck is wrong with you?
 
I'm aware most of these have a degree of subjectivity
Also for the stuff like "Rigged Election", if its brought up I'm counting it
2024 United States #1 Presidential Debate Bingo Card.png
 
lilyhollow said:
re: RL's voting posts

There are so many points of disagreement here that going over all of them would take way longer than I'm willing to spend, but the one thing I'll say is that if we're crediting "vote lesser of two evils" with getting us to where we are right now, then we also have to credit it with the rise of Trump. We can't just praise a strategy for the good bits, but then anything bad we say "oh that's people not following the strategy hard enough."

I think a key piece of this that liberals miss is that if the people are disillusioned or for any reason aren't committed to a strategy--in other words, in this case, if they're not 'voting hard enough'--that in and of itself is a weakness of the strategy.

The liberal tendency (imo) is to treat people like npcs and simply talk down on them for not realizing how everything would be so much better if they voted for the lesser of two evils. If Trump were to win the electoral college and popular vote, I think the general response from liberals (aside from blaming foreign governments) would be a throwing up of the hands and exclaiming "oh my gosh, I'm surrounded by idiots." No self-reflection needed: the strategy should simply be followed as a matter of course, and if the people aren't with that, then it's the people who are flawed, not the strategy.

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re: Hamas

The only beef I do have with a mod action on one of my posts in this thread is the one where I included a link to the Hamas pamphlet where they explain their perspective on Al-Aqsa Flood. A mod deleted the link to the pamphlet, and I disagree with that, but that is not where I have beef--I actually thought that they might delete the whole post, but they left up all of the most important parts, which is more than I thought I would get!

Where I do have beef is that the moderator left a note in the post which misrepresented Hamas as saying that 'attacks on civilians are necessary.' It's not an exaggeration to say that that is the exact opposite of what Hamas says in the pamphlet. Now if someone were to read that post, they would be subjected to false information about the pamphlet. This is another reason why I highly recommend people actually read the full pamphlet if they haven't yet. Hamas has been completely misrepresented in various ways throughout this genocide, and so if we want to avoid being misled, it's critically important to look into their perspective directly from the source.
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How has Hamas been “completely misrepresented”? Are you taking this packet, from an organization recognized as a terrorist group, at face value?
 
BIG ASHLEY said:
does the lesser-evilism philosophy apply to hamas vs. the genocidal israeli state or is that different somehow
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lesser evil should never be the end goal we are striving for, neither Hamas or the IDF / Israeli government deserve our support as both Palestinian and Israeli civilians do
 
come on, the point was about a claim that the pamphlet itself said the opposite of what it did, the extent to which people should or shouldnt 'trust' the pamphlet is an independent question.
given that hamas is a designated terrorist organization in the places many of us live and this is not a secure forum, i think this is actually the one place where more moderation is necessary due to how broad material aid statutes are at least under US law and that allowing such conversation on the forums is putting users at risk of State violence, particularly younger users (even minors are permitted in this forum) who are less likely to know or understand that saying the wrong thing can lead to criminal charges, depending a lot on their own class positions ofc.
(i think removing mentions of hamas from every post, including this one, would be a reasonable policy.
and yes ofc there are always risks of state violence but this is an entirely unnecessary risk, as well as being a good opportunity to practice security culture at the most basic level.

~ ~ ~

sabelette has every right to speak about the fact that zionists mobilized to try to get her banned from smogon, initially were successful in stripping all of her mod positions before the decision was reversed, and the ongoing material impacts of that mobilization including re her emotional state and choice to mostly avoid engaging in this thread/forum for her mental health.
the fact that moderator(s) are choosing to delete (without explanation) anything she writes talking about what was done to her or even just expressing why she is generally avoiding engaging in this thread, is horrifying and has the potential to be retraumatizing tho i ofc cannot speak precisely to sabelette's internal emotional experience of the decision to not allow her to talk abt her experiences of violence in smogon and then to not allow her to comment asking why this was deleted.
in a better world, such an abuse of power would be followed by an apology and offering a repair at absolute minimum. (meanwhile boo posts screenshots every time one of their posts gets edited, and mods are fine with that but when sabelette talks about what was done to her or how she feels about thats not allowed, or when i post any disagreement with moderation or even j asking why my posts keep getting deleted it gets erased instantly.)

if as a moderator you believe you are doing a good job moderating then you 'should' feel comfortable allowing those decisions to be discussed publically bc you believe in and stand by them. or maybe you learn something from receiving criticisms and then you can change your mind. mods can and will make mistakes just like the rest of us, but to ban sabelette from literally discussing her own experiences in smogon, is to ensure that mistakes can never be corrected because in order to have the possibility of correcting and improving from mistakes there needs to be space for those impacted to speak (both emotionally and analytically) about harm done to them and to be able to have a process of criticism and (resolution of that criticism, or repair or "synthesis" or whatever wording one wants to use). it is impossible to develop correct perspectives or analyses in an environment where the people directly impacted are not permitted to speak about their experiences.
 
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juoean said:
come on, the point was about a claim that the pamphlet itself said the opposite of what it did, the extent to which people should or shouldnt 'trust' the pamphlet is an independent question.
given that hamas is a designated terrorist organization in the places many of us live and this is not a secure forum, i think this is actually the one place where more moderation is necessary due to how broad material aid statutes are at least under US law and that allowing such conversation on the forums is putting users at risk of State violence, particularly younger users (even minors are permitted in this forum) who are less likely to know or understand that saying the wrong thing can lead to criminal charges, depending a lot on their own class positions ofc.

~ ~ ~

sabelette has every right to speak about the fact that zionists mobilized to try to get her banned from smogon, initially were successful in stripping all of her mod positions before the decision was reversed, and the ongoing material impacts of that mobilization including re her emotional state and choice to mostly avoid engaging in this thread/forum for her mental health.
the fact that moderator(s) are choosing to delete (without explanation) anything she writes talking about what was done to her or even just expressing why she is generally avoiding engaging in this thread, is horrifying and has the potential to be retraumatizing tho i ofc cannot speak precisely to sabelette's internal emotional experience of the decision to not allow her to talk abt her experiences of violence in smogon and then to not allow her to comment asking why this was deleted.
in a better world, such an abuse of power would be followed by an apology and offering a repair at absolute minimum. (meanwhile boo posts screenshots every time one of their posts gets edited, and mods are fine with that but when sabelette talks about what was done to her or how she feels about thats not allowed, or when i post any disagreement with moderation or even j asking why my posts keep getting deleted it gets erased instantly.)

if as a moderator you believe you are doing a good job moderating then you 'should' feel comfortable allowing those decisions to be discussed publically bc you believe in and stand by them. or maybe you learn something from receiving criticisms and then you can change your mind. mods can and will make mistakes just like the rest of us, but to ban sabelette from literally discussing her own experiences in smogon, is to ensure that mistakes can never be corrected because in order to have the possibility of correcting and improving from mistakes there needs to be space for those impacted to speak (both emotionally and analytically) about harm done to them and to be able to have a process of criticism and (resolution of that criticism, or repair or "synthesis" or whatever wording one wants to use). it is impossible to develop correct perspectives or analyses in an environment where the people directly impacted are not permitted to speak about their experiences.
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A) You need to stop speaking for people, period.

B) You need to stop criticizing almost literally every single moderator action that happens in this thread. Nearly half of all your posts, including your first obtuse rant within the first 5 posts of this thread, have been directed at the moderating team.

I, very seriously, don't even know who you are, had never seen your posts prior to this thread. Whatever beef you have with me you need to drop it.

Sablette's post was moderated for being an outright attack against the Discord team, while even acknowledging they're the reason the last thread was closed and they were recused from the Discord channel. I really don't think it's outrageous to think they deserved to be edited, it's more than they probably deserved and should have been infracted for insulting staff.

By posting in this thread you are agreeing to the terms and rules in the OP. We are moderating in order to keep discussion going while trying to cut back on the vitriolic nature of the users in this thread. It's that or it gets closed.
 
Dead by Daylight said:
Are you taking this packet, from an organization recognized as a terrorist group, at face value?
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Who said you have to take it at face value? I think it is quite clear that a Hamas packet released by Hamas would be pretty biased. I don't think anyone would think otherwise. That doesn't mean you don't read it.

If our goal is to learn and have an accurate analysis of things, it would be an enormous error to literally only read perspectives on Hamas presented by direct enemies of Hamas.

Having read the packet, my personal opinion of it is that it's good. Not a popular opinion here, I'm sure. But my personal thoughts on the packet are not the point of what I'm saying. The point is that it's a huge mistake to simply accept the mainstream narrative on Hamas, or any supposed enemy of the United States*, while categorically refusing to investigate opposing perspectives. The moment you do that, basically it is over for you. It will be way too easy for your government to manipulate you into any opinion they want you to have.


* I say the US because that is where I live, but really this applies to whatever one's home country might be.
 
Oglemi said:
A) You need to stop speaking for people, period.

B) You need to stop criticizing almost literally every single moderator action that happens in this thread. Nearly half of all your posts, including your first obtuse rant within the first 5 posts of this thread, have been directed at the moderating team.

I, very seriously, don't even know who you are, had never seen your posts prior to this thread. Whatever beef you have with me you need to drop it.

Sablette's post was moderated for being an outright attack against the Discord team, while even acknowledging they're the reason the last thread was closed and they were recused from the Discord channel. I really don't think it's outrageous to think they deserved to be edited, it's more than they probably deserved and should have been infracted for insulting staff.

By posting in this thread you are agreeing to the terms and rules in the OP. We are moderating in order to keep discussion going while trying to cut back on the vitriolic nature of the users in this thread. It's that or it gets closed.
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Please close it. I know this thread hasn’t crossed your line yet, but this thread has produced literally nothing productive and has instead turned into a negative and toxic culture where users are turning against eachother and authority in general. I really sense the anti-authority part of this thread.
 
Oglemi said:
A) You need to stop speaking for people, period.

B) You need to stop criticizing almost literally every single moderator action that happens in this thread. Nearly half of all your posts, including your first obtuse rant within the first 5 posts of this thread, have been directed at the moderating team.

I, very seriously, don't even know who you are, had never seen your posts prior to this thread. Whatever beef you have with me you need to drop it.

Sablette's post was moderated for being an outright attack against the Discord team, while even acknowledging they're the reason the last thread was closed and they were recused from the Discord channel. I really don't think it's outrageous to think they deserved to be edited, it's more than they probably deserved and should have been infracted for insulting staff.

By posting in this thread you are agreeing to the terms and rules in the OP. We are moderating in order to keep discussion going while trying to cut back on the vitriolic nature of the users in this thread. It's that or it gets closed.
Click to expand...


~ who am i speaking for? i read the original post, then i saw that it got infracted, then i saw the edit asking why it was infracted and saw that get deleted. these are things that anyone who happened to be online at the right moment could/would have observed and i am not speaking for anyone.

i dont know you either? idk what that has to do with anything. yes at the beginning of this thread i brought up the fact that no one responded to criticisms made immediately before the prior thread was locked, by myself and others, which anyone can go look at if they wish to but idt we need to go back to that at this point. however when this thread was first resurrected i think it was a perfectly reasonable thing to bring up 1 bc it was unresolved and 2 as part of agreeing to standards for this new thread which i do not agree are clear from the OP. even if you think it wasnt reasonable or something worth revisiting idk why it couldnt have j been discussed but whatever.
anyway deleting that is one thing but that has nothing to do with the fact that i wrote a 10+ paragraph post explaining why your characterization of lilyhollow's posts was extremely inaccurate and prejudicial and this was deleted for unknown reasons.

criticisms are not inherently "personal attacks." in fact (decent) criticism is often as much for the benefit of the person it is directed at as for anyone else. if i was just trying to insult you i wouldnt spend hours going through the sequence of events in detail demonstrating why the statements about their post were thoroughly inaccurate. this explanation was not for lilyhollow, who already knew that your characterization of what they said was inaccurate, it was for you under the hope that maybe you might be interested in listening and improving.

~ idek what "the discord team" means here but the portion of sabelette's post that you deleted was at least primarily talking about her own experiences as the target of a zionist attack campaign in smogon and her various emotions and mental health and such. ofc i am at a disadvantage here bc you still have access to the paragraphs she wrote that were deleted, and i dont bc i am not a mod so im going from memory. but i know she replied to one user in this thread and identified them as one of the many ppl who bear responsibility for the attack campaigns against her, idk anything abt that specific user so i cant speak to that part but obv there in fact was an attack and demodding campaign and for her to talk about that is not "personal attacks", its literally describing her own experiences, and yea reacting to the fact that this was someone involved, she is allowed to be angry at people who ran a campaign to try to ban her from the site!?!?!?!? again none of this is "personal attacks" on anyone, and certainly not a "personal attack" on whatever "the discord team" is since sabelette is talking about the campaign to demod her which did not originate from any particular smogon body. (the responses to that campaign by various smogon bodies could ofc be something to discuss, and criticism of such would not be "personal attacks" it would be expressing disagreement with moderation decisions. but in any case, sabelette's deleted paragraphs were not talking about those responses but about the attack campaign(s) themselves.)

you are severely misrepresenting the statement about sabelette being responsible for the other thread being closed. sabelette was j talking about that countless times when she expresses herself somewhere in smogon and then someone decides to close the thread in response bc theyre "uncomf" or whatever and dw to deal with it (or idk i cant speak to the subjective emotional states etc of anyone but i have observed this phenomenon of threads getting closed after she says something). in this instance, she is talking about that she made several posts defending the right of palestinians to resist the zionist settler colonial project, by any means. then there was a fascist reaction calling for death to all muslims and then shortly afterward the thread was locked (with a statement that was v problematic as was discussed in between the first and second unlock but again ppl can go look at the thread if they want to see details of that, im trying to stay on topic here). this is the sequence of events sabelette is referring to when she is talking about 'causing the last thread to be closed', and you would know that this is what she meant if you had read the last few pages of the old politics thread before starting this one, which this last post makes pretty clear that you either never did or remember absolutely nothing from it. which sort of loops back to the other thing u brought up about not knowing what i was talking about in my initial post referring to the events at the close of the prior thread, like i had thought it was an obvious baseline that if you are going to be the moderator or primary moderator for this thread that you would have read the end of the previous thread to understand where things had left off?

edit: oh i forgot to respond to the agreeing to the principles of the OP thing. yea i dont see how or why anything i have posted could be deemed contrary to the OP which talks about stuff like being detailed dont strawman dont attack show evidence for your claims. other than my first post in this thread which yes did not go into detail as i was making reference to the post i had written at the end of the prior thread which i mistakenly assumed you had read. all my other posts, including the 10+ paragraph criticism explaining why you had misrepresented lilyhollow's position, do like exactly what the OP asks for in terms of the way i articulate my arguments (not bc of any 'personal belief' in those principles but just bc thats just the way i am in my communication, i tend to avoid more theoretical ideological stuff i prefer to get as detailed as possible and work through any disagreements etc at that level.)
so if you think that i have done something in contrary to those principles, then the principles are not as clear as you claim they are no? bc i rly have no idea which principle(s) i supposedly violated or what thing(s) i said that were in violation other than that it has something to do with me talking about moderation standards since those were the posts that always got deleted.
 
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Anchor9 said:
Please close it. I know this thread hasn’t crossed your line yet, but this thread has produced literally nothing productive and has instead turned into a negative and toxic culture where users are turning against eachother and authority in general. I really sense the anti-authority part of this thread.
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Couple things here: most people are not being toxic and the productivity point is subjective. I've gotten messages from people who don't wish to post here for their own reasons thanking me for what I've said. The liberals in this thread have said that too. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone's politics. I don't need to be friends with every user I interact with. I believe that having open and honest discussion can only lead to more people coming to your side. I also don't care that this is a Pokemon forum or that there are "better" places to argue my POV as others have stated. If you're going to make that comment you should be banned from posting in this thread for consistency. The anti-authority comment is not worth responding to.
 
lilyhollow said:
Who said you have to take it at face value? I think it is quite clear that a Hamas packet released by Hamas would be pretty biased. I don't think anyone would think otherwise. That doesn't mean you don't read it.

If our goal is to learn and have an accurate analysis of things, it would be an enormous error to literally only read perspectives on Hamas presented by direct enemies of Hamas.
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What's the benefit of reading a packet that is written, again, by an extremely biased source (that is literally the organization itself?) to "learn and have an accurate analysis of things"? This is akin to reading a, to borrow boo's example, KKK manifesto to "learn and have an accurate analysis" about the KKK and would be an enormous error."

Additionally, we can't "investigate" if we don't trust our sources first. Detectives can't investigate if the only evidence they find is shoddy at best - they would not have enough information to make a choice. Dozens of countries, according to the Center for Human Rights, have labeled Hamas as terrorists - I'd say that trusting them as well as their allies is a dangerous pitfall to make if we want to have an accurate view of them.

Actions speak louder than words.
 
juoean said:
~ who am i speaking for? i read the original post, then i saw that it got infracted, then i saw the edit asking why it was infracted and saw that get deleted. these are things that anyone who happened to be online at the right moment could/would have observed and i am not speaking for anyone.

i dont know you either? idk what that has to do with anything. yes at the beginning of this thread i brought up the fact that no one responded to criticisms made immediately before the prior thread was locked, by myself and others, which anyone can go look at if they wish to but idt we need to go back to that at this point. however when this thread was first resurrected i think it was a perfectly reasonable thing to bring up 1 bc it was unresolved and 2 as part of agreeing to standards for this new thread which i do not agree are clear from the OP. even if you think it wasnt reasonable or something worth revisiting idk why it couldnt have j been discussed but whatever.
anyway deleting that is one thing but that has nothing to do with the fact that i wrote a 10+ paragraph post explaining why your characterization of lilyhollow's posts was extremely inaccurate and prejudicial and this was deleted for unknown reasons.

criticisms are not inherently "personal attacks." in fact (decent) criticism is often as much for the benefit of the person it is directed at as for anyone else. if i was just trying to insult you i wouldnt spend hours going through the sequence of events in detail demonstrating why the statements about their post were thoroughly inaccurate. this explanation was not for lilyhollow, who already knew that your characterization of what they said was inaccurate, it was for you under the hope that maybe you might be interested in listening and improving.

~ idek what "the discord team" means here but the portion of sabelette's post that you deleted was at least primarily talking about her own experiences as the target of a zionist attack campaign in smogon and her various emotions and mental health and such. ofc i am at a disadvantage here bc you still have access to the paragraphs she wrote that were deleted, and i dont bc i am not a mod so im going from memory. but i know she replied to one user in this thread and identified them as one of the many ppl who bear responsibility for the attack campaigns against her, idk anything abt that specific user so i cant speak to that part but obv there in fact was an attack and demodding campaign and for her to talk about that is not "personal attacks", its literally describing her own experiences, and yea reacting to the fact that this was someone involved, she is allowed to be angry at people who ran a campaign to try to ban her from the site!?!?!?!? again none of this is "personal attacks" on anyone, and certainly not a "personal attack" on whatever "the discord team" is since sabelette is talking about the campaign to demod her which did not originate from any particular smogon body.

you are severely misrepresenting the statement about sabelette being responsible for the other thread being closed. sabelette was j talking about that countless times when she expresses herself somewhere in smogon and then someone decides to close the thread in response bc theyre "uncomf" or whatever and dw to deal with it (or idk i cant speak to the subjective emotional states etc of anyone but i have observed this phenomenon of threads getting closed after she says something). in this instance, she is talking about that she made several posts defending the right of palestinians to resist the zionist settler colonial project, by any means. then there was a fascist reaction calling for death to all muslims and then shortly afterward the thread was locked (with a statement that was v problematic as was discussed in between the first and second unlock but again ppl can go look at the thread if they want to see details of that, im trying to stay on topic here). this is the sequence of events sabelette is referring to when she is talking about 'causing the last thread to be closed', and you would know that this is what she meant if you had read the last few pages of the old politics thread before starting this one, which this last post makes pretty clear that you either never did or remember absolutely nothing from it. which sort of loops back to the other thing u brought up about not knowing what i was talking about in my initial post referring to the events at the close of the prior thread, like i had thought it was an obvious baseline that if you are going to be the moderator or primary moderator for this thread that you would have read the end of the previous thread to understand where things had left off?
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You are backpedaling very hard on the hostility you and others have represented in this thread to try and paint me as unreasonable.

The last thread was a shitshow and has no basis on this one, you have entirely new people moderating and new guidelines for discussion, hence the new thread.

I will not engage with you further. If your posts are not about politics you should expect them to be deleted.
 
Dead by Daylight said:
What's the benefit of reading a packet that is written, again, by an extremely biased source (that is literally the organization itself?) to "learn and have an accurate analysis of things"? This is akin to reading a, to borrow boo's example, KKK manifesto to "learn and have an accurate analysis" about the KKK and would be an enormous error."

Additionally, we can't "investigate" if we don't trust our sources first. Detectives can't investigate if the only evidence they find is shoddy at best - they would not have enough information to make a choice. Dozens of countries, according to the Center for Human Rights, have labeled Hamas as terrorists - I'd say that trusting them as well as their allies is a dangerous pitfall to make if we want to have an accurate view of them.

Actions speak louder than words.
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I don't think the KKK/Hamas comparison is even remotely fair and I believe you can personally find this statement true while also believing them to be terrorists. Hamas was created during the intifada, a literal uprising, against the occupying force that is Israel. The KKK is/was a reactionary group of white dudes that thought blacks and other minorities were inferior to them in every way. Just because both groups were founded to "fight for their people" doesn't make them similar. Yes, the KKK uses propaganda and so does Hamas, but it's really ignorant to view them as checklists when one group has far, far more legitimacy to their existence than the other.
 
Dead by Daylight said:
This is akin to reading a, to borrow boo's example, KKK manifesto to "learn and have an accurate analysis" about the KKK
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Is it akin to that? How can you know that if you're basing your evaluation entirely on information provided by enemies of Hamas?

You state that dozens of countries label Hamas as a terrorist group. There are like 200 countries in the world, so which ones label Hamas as a terrorist group and which ones do not? Are the ones that label Hamas as a terrorist group the 'unbiased countries,' whom we can trust, and the ones that don't are biased liars to be dismissed?

Are there any countries which claim that Hamas is a terrorist group while also supporting the ongoing genocide against Palestinians? That might be an important piece of information to keep in mind when deciding which sources to 'trust.'
 
Why is "toxicity" such a bad and unspeakable thing? Idk, people get bad and you ban them. I never understood reason for closing the threads because people are inherently toxic. I'm not here to make the thread worse for the sake of some weird glee, but politics is politics. I'm expecting clashing opinions. It's how I learn things about people.
 
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