Serious The Politics Thread

[adjectivenoun]

Presumably that the reason the hostages being shown are in decent condition is because they're the ones that survived.

While that is certainly a factor, there's also just blatant propaganda at play here too. HAMAS knows they benefit from being perceived as freedom fighters or underdogs and not as radical murderous terrorists. Are they showing us only certain hostages they've treated well while others away from the camera are being mistreated? Would they treat any of their hostages with such mercy if a thousand cameras weren't pointed at them?

This is pretty much what I was getting at. I suspect, though I lack hard evidence to support this, that the appearances of the prisoners that Hamas releases don't reflect the way that prisoners of Hamas are generally treated. Either way, I absolutely do not think that we can infer anything about the treatment of these prisoners from Hamas's own propaganda videos.

None of this is to say that Israel is better, nor is it even to suggest that the two sides are equally terrible. It seems apparent to me that Israel is using the worst abuses of Hamas to justify a campaign of violence and abuse against the Palestinian people. Even if Israel really is just trying to chase down Hamas, I find the way that they are carving through civilian populations to be absolutely unconscionable. If a permanent two-state solution is impossible, then I would rather see Palestine emerge as the area's one state. However, I'm wary of those sentiments being twisted into apologetics for an organization that, by most accounts not commissioned by them, isn't that great either.

 

[Divine Retribution]

These are all pretty reasonable thoughts, though I have my issues with them. But the thing I really want to ask is, are you putting these ideas forth merely as plausible explanations, or are you saying that they are guaranteed true?

Plausible explanations, I don't have any hard evidence with which I could possibly make any guarantees.

 

[lilyhollow]

Okay so I'm basically fine with all of this then (referring to both of your posts).

To be clear, the position I'm pushing here is not "we must all agree that Hamas is good and awesome." I'm not that much of a glutton for punishment!

The position I am pushing is "it is a good idea to learn about Hamas's point of view, including directly from the source." (I would also say that this applies to any supposed enemy one's home country.)

Some members object to this, suggesting that Hamas is obviously evil, comparable to the KKK, case closed, and it's therefore unacceptable to even read anything Hamas says. So the evidence I provided above was, again, not supposed to be definitive proof that Hamas is a legitimate resistance organization, though I do happen to believe that it is. I'm merely trying to show that there is reasonable doubt about the 'evil terrorist' narrative, and that one should therefore not foreclose on the very possibility of them being a legitimate resistance organization. Which, again, imo means it is a good idea for us to learn the bare minimum of what their narrative is, whether or not we ultimately agree with it.

Hopefully that makes some sense, but if not it's cool, I am all tired out and think it's time to take a break!

 

[ASMRxism]

You know nothing. Post bookmarked.

Why are you so giddy and hellbent on the felon winning? There is no evidence nor is there precedence to suggest such. It sounds like rooting for it at this point. Biden is the incumbent and he beat the felon already. And the criminal is probably getting sentenced to jail in two weeks.

If you are a liberal, leftist, progressive, Democrat, or anti-fascist, quit wetting the bed and get to work. Have some conviction and stand up for the President. The felon wants to destroy us all.

lol I'm not giddy man. I'm bummed as hell. I want Trump to lose. I agree with you that he's a serious threat to this country, which is why I want the DNC to acknowledge reality and get serious about beating him instead of blindly supporting a very obviously losing candidate. I live in a solid blue state. My presidential vote doesn't matter. He'll get my state's electoral college votes no matter what. But he's losing in swing states and you are absolutely delusional if you think that Biden can do anything to change that. I know you think you're the pragmatist and I'm the ideologue, but seriously, mainstream centrist media is finally starting to come to terms with the fact that sticking with Biden is a bigger risk than whomever would be selected by a brokered convention.

And hey! Quit lecturing me about my duty to support a president I never wanted and who has made it clear, over and over again, that he doesn't care what I think. He's your guy. It's your job to convince me and everyone else to believe in him. And you're doing about as bad of a job as he is.

Have fun going down swinging.

 

[Pinecoishot]

On the Hamas subject. I find it much more complicated than a “hamas are terrorists and anything slightly sympathetic to them is terrorist apologia” or “Hamas is a justified revolutionary group fighting a genocidal terror state”. If we view a group, military, or country as a terrorist group/state due to purposefully attacking civilians for political aims, We would have to call almost every military in the world a terrorist group. The U.S military for example is by definition a terrorist group. The U.S police would also be commiting terrorist acts throughout U.S history by this definition. Obviously this extends to Israel government, and Israeli settlers too which will never be called terrorists because America has conditioned it’s citizens to view brown and black people as terrorists and not western allies/white people. When it comes to revolutionary groups, even ones people generally agree with, they did the same thing. The Haitian Slave Revolt involved killing civilians beyond slave owners for example. Most people view this revolt and justified including myself of course and would not call people involved terrorists. Do we call the ANC and similar groups who massacred civilians in South Africa terrorists even though we all agree they were fighting for good. I could also go more into white pro western groups who tend to get the exception a lot. The point overall is that there is no actual objective definition that we use to say these people are terrorists while these aren’t. It’s all political. Is Hamas worse than the IRA for example. There seems to be a double standard for what revolutionary group people forgive for killing civilians and which they don’t. And it doesn’t have to do with objective measurements but vibes.

 

[BIG ASHLEY]

If we view a group, military, or country as a terrorist group/state due to purposefully attacking civilians for political aims, We would have to call almost every military in the world a terrorist group. The U.S military for example is by definition a terrorist group. The U.S police would also be commiting terrorist acts throughout U.S history by this definition.

 

[Chou Toshio]

That debate was extremely unfortunate.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Congressman Jamaal Bowman (D-NY16) was ousted in the most expensive primary race ever. Bowman was part of “the squad” and received endorsements from AOC, Bernie Sanders, and House Minority leader Hakeem Jeffries. Challenger George Lattimer was endorsed by Hillary Clinton and disgraced former governor Cuomo.

This race was interesting for a few reasons-

-The district is not ideal for a more progressive candidate to start, as it contains some wealthier NYC suburbs combined with a sliver of the Bronx (the most Democratic county in the USA). The Bronx has been split up as part of a NY Democratic gerrymander.

-Bowman has been most vocally anti-Israel. This district is roughly 10% Jewish, and the Jewish community had nearly presidential race-level turnout in this primary election. Uh… yeah it was not good for Bowman.

-Locally, TV ads against Bowman relentlessly accused him of blocking Biden’s agenda due to his vote against the bi-partisan infrastructure bill. Forgotten is the context. “The squad” voted against the bill as leverage to pressure former Democratic Senators Manchin and Sinema to vote for Build Back Better, Biden’s signature agenda proposal. The squad was correct on this, as Manchin and Sinema (who are both no longer Democrats) immediately did an about face and tanked BBB as soon as the infrastructure bill got passed. An extremely watered down Inflation Reduction Act was passed instead.

Thoughts?

When I moved to Westchester and saw what it and my neighbors were like, I thought “how the heck did Bowman win here?”

Oh right— redistricting. These rich suburbs weren’t part of his constituency before.

Anyway, I canvassed, knocked on 100 doors in the heat, made the case to folks in some parts of Westchester more contestable, donated what I could— and voted.

We do what we can.

Bowman was never going to be able to be the pro-Israel candidate. That political block was always going to be after his head, from the moment Oct 7th happened there was no politically better path for any squad member to take than what they did. Bowman is the type of leader we need, and he absolutely swept the Bronx. I think he should not give up, but look for a different district— maybe the 15th where some of his previous constituents are. AoC crushed her election in the 14th.

 

[RaikouLover]

want the DNC to acknowledge reality and get serious about beating him instead of blindly supporting a very obviously losing candidate. I live in a solid blue state. My presidential vote doesn't matter. He'll get my state's electoral college votes no matter what. But he's losing in swing states and you are absolutely delusional if you think that Biden can do anything to change that.

Delusional is suggesting an incumbent President who already beat this opponent to drop out because people such as yourself are nervous.

And hey! Quit lecturing me about my duty to support a president I never wanted and who has made it clear, over and over again, that he doesn't care what I think. He's your guy. It's your job to convince me and everyone else to believe in him. And you're doing about as bad of a job as he is.

Have fun going down swinging.

That is where we differ. Perhaps it is my family’s history. For myself and many voters of color, belief is irrelevant. Politics is not a love affair. You get two choices. Pick a side.

 

[Blue glass]

Even if one dismiss the UN comission report as Western propaganda, it's undeniable that Hamas kidnapped civilians and are keeping them hostages for almost a year, which is a violent act on itself that traumatizes people who go through it, we shouldn't minimize that especially in consideration that one of hostages was missing an arm because he was injured during the kidnapping and other one was confirmed dead some time after his video was released, so much for well treated hostages in a war zone. The Israeli government cares more about starving and maiming Palestinian children than releasing their own citizens but Hamas bears responsibility to what happens to the hostages too.

As someone who isn't from the US, it's hard to understand how the democratic party could choose such a bad candidate as Joe Biden or that he wouldn't step aside for someone else. I hope he wins nevertheless.

 

[RaikouLover]

As someone who isn't from the US, it's hard to understand how the democratic party could choose such a bad candidate as Joe Biden or that he wouldn't step aside for someone else. I hope he wins nevertheless.

In the US, we have a primary election where voters registered to each party choose the candidate for President. Typically, incumbent Presidents face no serious primary challenge because they already won the general election and a drawn out competitive primary can hurt the incumbent. It is mostly due to have to spend campaign resources that would otherwise be used in the general election.

Incumbent President usually win re-election due to said incumbency advantage (not having a competitive primary). Felon Trump was the outlier here. He is an exceptionally terrible candidate that was just the third incumbent to lose re-election in the last 100 years. And he lost re-election to Biden, the guy you just called a bad candidate.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I woke up this morning and the first thing I saw on the news was that Bidet got absolutely washed on the debate last night.

How bad was it to make international news like that?

 

[CaffeineBoost]

hey, someone created a thread for the debate, just so you know: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...nful-thing-you-were-ever-put-through.3746008/

 

[Chou Toshio]

I woke up this morning and the first thing I saw on the news was that Bidet got absolutely washed on the debate last night.

How bad was it to make international news like that?

Extremely, extremely unfortunate.

hey, someone created a thread for the debate, just so you know: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...nful-thing-you-were-ever-put-through.3746008/

This^

 

[RaikouLover]

I woke up this morning and the first thing I saw on the news was that Bidet got absolutely washed on the debate last night.

How bad was it to make international news like that?

Ehh. An elderly man battling a cold and lifetime of stutter vs. a pathological liar that answered none of the debate questions.

What are they saying on international news?

 

[Chou Toshio]

Can we just coup Biden and replace with Michelle Obama or some shenanigans already? It’s the Dems or fascism right? Where’s the urgency? Where’s the real sense of danger?

Putting both winning the left’s vote/doing actually good governance aside (we’re sooooo far away from worrying about even the terrible fact that Biden has no vision or pitch about the future of the country)— the sheer ineptitude, inadequacy, weakness, feebleness, complacency, incompetence on display here—

Biden certainly manifestly represents all those things but it’s clear that they don’t stop with him, but are representative of the whole party’s leadership. If we lose, zero fault with the voters, 10000000000% blame on the party leadership.

Obama get your ass off the sofa, make some calls like in the 2020 primary, and just install Michelle or Buttegieg (not Kamala plz) as the party’s interim figurehead God King until we can beat Trump and figure out what the hell is going on.

It’s super depressing because on Progressive domestic policy, I think we’ll be worse off with any centrist Dem besides Biden— but this really is just a 1 issue vote; democracy or not, and the Dems got to play a stronger card against fascism.

 

[RaikouLover]

Can we just coup Biden and replace with Michelle Obama or some shenanigans already? It’s the Dems or fascism right? Where’s the urgency? Where’s the real sense of danger?

Putting both winning the left’s vote/doing actually good governance aside (we’re sooooo far away from worrying about even the terrible fact that Biden has no vision or pitch about the future of the country)— the sheer ineptitude, inadequacy, weakness, feebleness, complacency, incompetence on display here—

Biden certainly manifestly represents all those things but it’s clear that they don’t stop with him, but are representative of the whole party’s leadership. If we lose, zero fault with the voters, 10000000000% blame on the party leadership.

Love you brother but we have to hold together. No one who actually cares about the future of democracy vs. fascism is going to abstain because Biden is old. That would be a contradiction.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Love you brother but we have to hold together. No one who actually cares about the future of democracy vs. fascism is going to abstain because Biden is old. That would be a contradiction.

I’m 1000% voting the Democrat no matter what but at this point even Ezra Klein and Nate Silvers have written what I wrote, just more nicely. Dem leaders just need to pull the trigger.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

hey, someone created a thread for the debate, just so you know: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...nful-thing-you-were-ever-put-through.3746008/

My bad, I totally missed it!

Ehh. An elderly man battling a cold and lifetime of stutter vs. a pathological liar that answered none of the debate questions.

What are they saying on international news?

They were saying it was a disaster, Biden froze up at times, looked deflated and weary, and there's a general sense of panic in Biden's campaign.

In contrast, they said that Trump was vigorously spouting lies all over the place.

 

[Chou Toshio]

My bad, I totally missed it!


They were saying it was a disaster, Biden froze up at times, looked deflated and weary, and there's a general sense of panic in Biden's campaign.

In contrast, they said that Trump was vigorously spouting lies all over the place.

Exactly accurate. I saw the same in Japanese media too actually.

Our ALLIES are panicking about a Fascist America too

 

[ASMRxism]

Ehh. An elderly man battling a cold and lifetime of stutter vs. a pathological liar that answered none of the debate questions.

What are they saying on international news?

Astonishingly, they're saying he got wrecked because he's obviously too old to string together a coherent defense against Trump's lies. Looks like the damn leftist nihilists have infiltrated international media outlets now too.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/crgedpw4r5eo

www.cnbc.com/amp/2024/06/28/biden-stumbles-trump-lies-how-the-global-media-reacted-to-the-presidential-debate.html

https://www.politico.eu/article/european-media-reacts-to-u-s-presidential-debate-carnage/

The cold excuse is pretty funny though. Telling people that a common cold is the reason why he sounds near death is a good way to convince people that he's not too old. One of the CBS reporters said she asked Biden staff why he sounded like that, heard nothing for 45 minutes and then simultaneously heard back from everyone saying he had a cold. Guess they had to coordinate their story. Sounds legit

 

[RaikouLover]

They were saying it was a disaster, Biden froze up at times, looked deflated and weary, and there's a general sense of panic in Biden's campaign.

In contrast, they said that Trump was vigorously spouting lies all over the place.

Accurate. Can you export some of that reporting to the US? Our media is a fucking joke.

I’m voting the Democrat no matter what but at this point even Ezra Klein and Nate Silvers have written what I wrote, just more nicely. Dem leaders just need to pull the trigger.

As is everyone else who wants democracy instead of fascism.

Has Nate Silver been right about anything in the last 10 years? In 2022, Nate Silver predicted Republicans would easily win the House and Senate. How did that work out?

 

[Platinum God n1n1]

All the instances over the past year of him losing train of thought and needing direction where to walk were dismissed when the media or Republicans suggested he was too old. Amazing that it took this debate for democrats to realize this. They have no one to blame but themselves for ignoring it.
Those in the DNC who knew that his age was a problem must have just been hoping all these criminal trails would dent Trump enough to save Biden.

 

[ASMRxism]

All the instances over the past year of him losing train of thought and needing direction where to walk were dismissed when the media or Republicans suggested he was too old. Amazing that it took this debate for democrats to realize this. They have no one to blame but themselves for ignoring it.
Those in the DNC who knew that his age was a problem must have just been hoping all these criminal trails would dent Trump enough to save Biden.

Sounds like you want fascism instead of democracy.

On an unrelated note, it looks like it's going to rain. I don't want my car's interior to get wet, so I've decided to leave my sunroof open and yell at everyone who tells me to close it.

 

[RaikouLover]

All the instances over the past year of him losing train of thought and needing direction where to walk were dismissed when the media or Republicans suggested he was too old. Amazing that it took this debate for democrats to realize this. They have no one to blame but themselves for ignoring it.
Those in the DNC who knew that his age was a problem must have just been hoping all these criminal trails would dent Trump enough to save Biden.

There was a primary and the voters spoke. The DNC did not even happen yet, nor do they have anything to do with this.

Convicted felon Trump is getting sentenced in two weeks. Did you think his legal problems would just disappear?