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Going to say I immediately agree with this and have agreed with it since it came back. This piece of shit is so oppressive on so many styles, and having to sus out the variety of sets (Oh boy! Protect into knock! Or is it protect into toxic! or gosh is it protect into fucking swords dance!) it limits too many pokemon than it helps. Not only self suffienct, but sits on so many mons due to the gamble of toxic vs EQ, making it incredibly difficult to deal with.
Running ice coverage to hit grass and ground, sure. Having to have multiple sources of ice coverage incase Gilscor comes to play the 'fun' game of clicking protect to heal itself out of range repeatedly isn't very interactive nor interesting. I like playing around Stall, but playing around Gilscor on any team comp makes me want to forefit immediately out of boredom. You know exactly what it does and what it wants to do depending on set, but you have zero way to prevent it unless you know.
SD Scor is pretty chill - its just a nice queen piece mon that gives struggling balance players such as myself a fighting chance in this offensive Darkrai Woger metagame. Honest SD Scor can struggle to find oppurtunities to setup amidst the vast array of threats such as Kingambit (for Knock + Facade sets), Ogerpon-W, Foul Play Pokemon, Raging Bolt, Weavile, Latios, and the list goes on. The Zamazenta on 30% of players' teams completely stonewalls it, as do other good, honest Pokemon like ID Corv and ID Skarm. Encourging the use of underdog Pokemon like Skarm, Corviknight, and others like Latios or Keldeo should be celebrated. Even if SD Scor uses Tera Normal, Zamazenta just comes in and threatens a giga sweep with its ID + BP set, and SD Scor ends up getting cooked.
What's amazing about SD Scor is that it punishes the evil Utility Scor that terrorized the prior metagame with its ability to setup multiple different entry hazards like T-Spikes and Spikes while also packing Knock Off to cripple switch-ins such as Kyurem and Lando-T. In general, Utilty Scor's OPness has seen a sharp decline due to many factors such as balances needing more momentum tools (making U-turn more mandatory over hazards) as well as other grounds and flying-types being needed to check Pokemon such as Great Tusk and Raging Bolt, which Gliscor itself is unable to handle on its own. With Darkrai being an awesome new addition to the tier, most teams are able to fit in an easy, reliable Ice Beam Pokemon to handle Gliscor and there are plenty of other new options such as Latios and Keldeo that IMO have been unexplored that also do the job well. Gliscor is the one Pokemon holding modern day stalls together as well.
Can we really call Honest SD Scor OP when 3 other Pokemon gamers complain about in Kyurem, Darkrai, and Ogerpon-W can use it as an entry point to deal lethal damage? I personally think Kyurem is a balanced Pokemon in the tier and Darkrai brings some good merits as well - however Ogerpon-W foul presence on the metagame renders many of the good, honest Pokemon used to check SD Gliscor like Skarmory and Corviknight, less useful as they fail to stop it from setting up and critting its way through the metagame with Ivy Cudgel. Ogerpon-W's mere presence has rendered a lot of creative options to stop Gliscor completely useless, while also forcing Grass-types that completely fold to SD Scor like Amogus on teams just to keep it in check. Banning Ogerpon-W would open up teams to use actually good Pokemon that don't get exploited by SD Gliscor, like Corviknight, Keldeo, and more.
If we ban SD be prepared for an even worse hell when returns with full vengence, paralyzing everything in site and turning our beautiful metagame into a 50/50 hellhole where relying on 30% dice rolls from Zapdos will be our only way of "checking" things.
Ah. Gliscor talk again. I strongly disagreed with banning it before and I do now. I'll list a few methods to deal with it and some notable mons for this.
First is super effective hits. Super effective moves include Ice and Water. There are a few notable mons like Darkrai, D-speed, Kyurem, Weavile, Meowscarada, Waterpon, Walking Wake, and Barraskewda. That's at least 8 mons that are very usable in OU, not counting lower tier mons that could be used in certain circumstances. And if other mons from these 8 are banned like Darkrai, we could see the Lati Twins or Gren being useful. So I don't even this this 8 is vulnerable to bans because, in most cases, something will replace the borderline threats in this group that can threaten Gliscor.
Strong neutral moves such as a banded Rillaboom Wood Hammer or Cornerstone's Rock type Ivy Cudgel can also deal a lot of damage to Gliscor. I won't list them all, especially the special attackers. Iron Valiant, Serperior, and Enamorus can also hit Gliscor hard depending on the set. Dragapult can also hit Gliscor really hard with Hex since Gliscor's whole niche is to poison itself. In fact, Hex is an extremely under utilized factor in the meta mostly lited by the fast Ghost types outside of Pult. But this beats Gliscor. Things such as Tera Ghost Valiant or lower tier Ghosts. Anyways, Rillaboom, Cornerstone, Enamorus, Serperior, Iron Valiant, and Dragapult add another 6.
If switching into Gliscor directly is a problem, you just use a pivot like Corv that can come in and slower U-turn into your anti-Gliscor attacker. If Tera is a problem, you have to use phasing, other strats, or just hit it hard neutrally. Tera comes at an opportunity cost, so you have to kill that opportunity by forcing it out once. Make it come in later when you are more prepared for the change.
Next let's talk about other ways to beat Gliscor. Encore and anti-healing. Encore is self explanatory. It completely ruins Gliscor. Valiant and the Oger forms regularly carry this. But they can also beat Gliscor just by dealing heavy damage. Although it spends on the set with Valiant, the combination of this and Encore should solidify it. Valiant and Wellspring were already listed. But Grasspon and Rockpon are both usable in OU and can hit Gliscor hard even with neutral damage. So that's two more for a total of 16 so far.
Anti-healing includes Neutralizing Gas and Psychic Noise. Neutralizing Gas is limited to Weezing forms, which can't be a direct counter to Gliscor because it can't have that and Levitate at the same time. But you can switch it in on the protect to chip it down for something faster to finish it off. I think that Geezing should be on the list for having niches in OU, even though it is not a direct check or counter. It is still useful for the matchup.
The Psychic Noise users include D-speed, Hatt, Prim, Crown, and Glowking for OU. Realistically, D-speed and Glowking are better off running other Psychic moves. D-speed can beat Gliscor anyways, but it doesn't really count here. Glowking can Tera, and can sometimes carry Ice Beam or help with Future Sight, but I also don't count it since Gliscor is faster and can often hit it hard. The other 3 can be good at helping to cripple Gliscor. Hatt in particular also counters Toxic and hazards from Gliscor, making it great potentially deal with it. But add Prim and Crown to the list also. They need to be a bit careful about taking Gliscor's attacks, but you can generally cripple it with a well times Psychic Noise. Prim can also make their Psychic Noise super effective with Liquid Voice.
So I have just listed 20ish pokemon that can help you in the Gliscor matchup. There are like, what, 41 pokemon in OU? So like half the amount of mons that exist in the tier can be used to help the Gliscor matchup? And people are complaining about how restrictive it is? Really? Just add 2-3 of these mons to your team.
Before I explain why I feel this strong hatred for Gliscor, I wanna say that the utility sets are not the problem, in fact I consider them good for the meta, being a strong defensive glue that fulfills several important roles, yet is still exploitable by the tier’s strong offensive behemoths like Kyurem and Wogre, but like Archaludon before, the offensive sets are what broke it. The Swords Dance set which has solidified itself as the best variant of Gliscor, and sparks the few ounces of discussion for a suspect. For the purposes of keeping this focused, I will only mention the SD set with some nods to utility Gliscor.
The SD set is really limited in coverage because it needs to spend half its moves on SD and Protect. You can't have all of Facade, Knock Off, and EQ. Some sets only have room for a single attack, making it much easier to wall or at least temporarily wall until you can force it out. Once you know what it is, you can more easily deal with it.
Everything else is just niche and/or doesn’t OHKO Gliscor anyways. So out of all of these, 7 OU relevant mons can OHKO a healthy Gliscor. One of them has to Terastilize in order to guarantee a one-shot, the other can be scouted with Protect, another needs LO in order to kill, and 2 have inaccurate Ice moves. While all of these can do a lot of damage to Gliscor, it doesn’t matter when Gliscor can very easily heal all the way back up with the amount of switch-in opportunities it has.
Choice users like Rillaboom and Specs Dragapult get scouted by Protect, thus allowing Gliscor to recover even more health. So even if they could threaten a KO, Gliscor simply can switch out. No other mon has that level of longevity and bulk.
7? This is not really true. I listed off at least 14 that can do it, although some like Serp or Enamorus may need a bit of snowballing. You also disqualify some like Rillaboom and Pult by saying Gliscor can just Protect and switch out. I think the justification there is poor. Not only is this extremely telegraphed, and therefore exploitable, but it's not so easy in practice for most things to switch into something like a banded Wood Hammer on G-terrain.
Furthermore, you act like Gliscor is the only mon healing. Yeah, no. A lot of mons have passive healing like Rillaboom or the regenerator mons. A lot of walls have active healing. Gliscor isn't the only mon, or the only bulky mon, that can switch out and heal. Nobody talks about any of those other passive healing mons as if you need to 1 shot them. Not offensive threats like Rillaboom nor Regenerator pivots like Alomomola or Glowking.
While it does check some key threats like Zama, Raging Bolt, Roaring Moon, and Gouging Fire, there’s already a mon that can check these threats, it’s called Landorus. Gliscor’s defensive role is not something that can’t be fulfilled by other already high tier mons in the meta.
Landorus-T is not a reason to ban Gliscor. It's proof that people would still carry things like Ice coverage to deal with the Flying/Ground type(s). Ban Gliscor, and see more T and other ground types. What you are ignoring here is that they fill different niches on a team. Lando in this gen is a pure pivot that gets chipped down over the course of the game. Gliscor has more sustainability, which makes it fit onto different teams. Banning one of them would actually limit team diversity because they are glue mons that work in different ways.
This is the point that made me angry. The first Gliscor ban was a red herring for Spikes. When it was banned, the Spikes problem did not go away. The hazard clear situation did not change. If you have to single one out, Hamurott is the worst spiker because it goes past Taunt and makes anti-leading much more complicated. There are so many mons this gen that can lay Spikes. You would hardly notice that aspect if Gliscor was banned. You would just see people fill their teams with mons like Skarmory, Clodsire, or Ting-Lu.
Running ice coverage to hit grass and ground, sure. Having to have multiple sources of ice coverage incase Gilscor comes to play the 'fun' game of clicking protect to heal itself out of range repeatedly isn't very interactive nor interesting. I like playing around Stall, but playing around Gilscor on any team comp makes me want to forefit immediately out of boredom. You know exactly what it does and what it wants to do depending on set, but you have zero way to prevent it unless you know.
You are running the Ice coverage anyways because of Lando-T and all the other good Ground, Dragon, Flying, and Grass types. Ice is generally just a very good offensive typing. You're hitting something like 14 mons super effectively, which is like a third of the tier. More if it's Freeze Dry.
Aside from what I already said, the general way to play around Gliscor is to hit it hard or chip it and force it out to make it easier to deal with later. The Protect turns are also very telegraphed, making it possible to gain some momentum or setup.
If we ban SD be prepared for an even worse hell when returns with full vengence, paralyzing everything in site and turning our beautiful metagame into a 50/50 hellhole where relying on 30% dice rolls from Zapdos will be our only way of "checking" things.
are we REALLY still fearmongering this team after the volc ban? This core is worse now because of reasons that go beyond Gliscor (Wellspring and Kyurem both crush this core like seriously).
Darkrai, D-speed, Kyurem, Weavile, Meowscarada, Waterpon, Walking Wake, and Barraskewda. That's at least 8 mons that are very usable in OU, not counting lower tier mons that could be used in certain circumstances.
of these, Barra is rain exclusive which is a mediocre playstyle that is quite fishy atm, wake is mostly stuck on sun teams (even if I like pivot sets they aren’t too splash able off sun), Meow is often stuck running scarf to be useful and thus just gets scouted by Gliscor (all while getting ripped up by hazards from Scot’s teammates), and Weavile while good isn’t as useful atm because it doesn’t match up well into the common structures running around.
so Darkrai, DeoS, Kyurem and Wellspring. Of these, Kyurem gets choice locked and scouted by protect (hazards also lol), Wellspring actually fails to KO a full health Gliscor (physical def) with cudgel and gets hit hard by even neutral facade, to say nothing of +2. Backed by that and hazards, yeah. Gliscor has
no issue outlasting these checks.
Strong neutral moves such as a banded Rillaboom Wood Hammer or Cornerstone's Rock type Ivy Cudgel can also deal a lot of damage to Gliscor. I won't list them all, especially the special attackers. Iron Valiant, Serperior, and Enamorus can also hit Gliscor hard depending on the set. Dragapult can also hit Gliscor really hard with Hex since Gliscor's whole niche is to poison itself. In fact, Hex is an extremely under utilized factor in the meta mostly lited by the fast Ghost types outside of Pult. But this beats Gliscor. Things such as Tera Ghost Valiant or lower tier Ghosts. Anyways, Rillaboom, Cornerstone, Enamorus, Serperior, Iron Valiant, and Dragapult add another 6.
Rilla? Sure til it scouts the move and pivots into helmet Skarmory or Corv, and who knows what else they have. Cornerstone though? Ivy Cudgel does 51% max to spdef Gliscor, to say nothing of phydef. It gets shredded by SD Scor. Also when it comes to hex, it’s just Pult. You’re never justifying the use of a lower tier ghost when Pult is around unless your Ceru or Sini which fill different roles. Speaking of, Sini is a great check but lacking boots, can still be prone to overwhelmed by hazards and Gliscor teammates.
The Psychic Noise users include D-speed, Hatt, Prim, Crown, and Glowking for OU. Realistically, D-speed and Glowking are better off running other Psychic moves. D-speed can beat Gliscor anyways, but it doesn't really count here.
Hatt prim and Glowking all lose to SD Gliscor, especially since you want try the Tera argument and SD Scor abuses it really well to muscle through these mons. Also regarding Gweezing, its fringe at best and mostly a bad Pokémon so it’s not worth mentioning.
A lot of mons have passive healing like Rillaboom or the regenerator mons. A lot of walls have active healing. Gliscor isn't the only mon, or the only bulky mon, that can switch out and heal. Nobody talks about any of those other passive healing mons as if you need to 1 shot them. Not offensive threats like Rillaboom nor Regenerator pivots like Alomomola or Glowking.
Rilla has terrible longevity because it so often loses health switching in because of hazards, and often while doing so to soak a resisted hit. It’s somewhat of a meme that Rilla can’t switch into much of anything. Not sure why you’re comparing Regen mons to Gliscor. It has significant longevity because it’s immune to spikes while Mola and Glowking are at risk of knock off making them much easier to break down.
Only Lu is comparable to Gliscor in this regard and yes, it’s meta game defining in its own right. But it at least offers anti offense use while not being constraining and polarizing to deal with.
I’m not even sold on a Gliscor ban at this point, it’s not even at its peak it was during DLC1, but denying its impact on the tier is silly when it certainly is a centralizing and difficult Mon to answer.
Not really…? I mean yeah they’re nice to have in those instances but you don’t need to slap on ice coverage for Lando nor do you need it for ground types (we have water type moves if you want that), dragons (we have fairies and other methods), flying types (most flyers are neutral to ice in OU outside Zapdos), and there’s no need for coverage against grasses when we have so few good ones (rilla is mega easy to wear down with neutral hits, meow has awful bulk). If Gliscor left, we’d definitely see less ice beam on mons (hell DeoS and Darkrai would have room for more moves and Glowking wouldn’t feel pressured to run it so Gliscor isn’t getting free switches).
of these, Barra is rain exclusive which is a mediocre playstyle that is quite fishy atm, wake is mostly stuck on sun teams (even if I like pivot sets they aren’t too splash able off sun), Meow is often stuck running scarf to be useful and thus just gets scouted by Gliscor (all while getting ripped up by hazards from Scot’s teammates), and Weavile while good isn’t as useful atm because it doesn’t match up well into the common structures running around.
These are still answers, and they should not really be dismissed because they are less common.
Barra is stuck on rain (though I disagree that rain is mediocre or fishy, it can be quite dynamic with what mons it uses) but on that playstyle it rips apart Gliscor. It gets flip turned on for eternity and takes 81% max if its phys defense and is forced to tera water to contain barra, which means its weak to bolt or zapdos now and thus the rain player has won with that exchange.
Wake also is mostly stuck but once again, destroys the ever loving crap out of gliscor. And pivot sets, which you acknowledged, still can decimate it with scald (idk what pivot wake uses, but scald is the least powerful option in its arsenal).
Meow is kinda stuck using scarf, though it can still threaten massive damage to gliscor. And if its a suprise boots set, meow can catch a gliscor that thinks its alright switching in on a knock with a brutal triple axel.
Weavile isn't the best rn, though part of that I believe is because people are not exploring more options like 4A or Low Kick (poison jab I am particularly interested in to catch prim off guard) but it once again destroys gliscor
so Darkrai, DeoS, Kyurem and Wellspring. Of these, Kyurem gets choice locked and scouted by protect (hazards also lol), Wellspring actually fails to KO a full health Gliscor (physical def) with cudgel and gets hit hard by even neutral facade, to say nothing of +2. Backed by that and hazards, yeah. Gliscor has no issue outlasting these checks.
Kyurem doesn't just have the choice specs set, it also has HDB, DD and mixed sets, so saying it gets choice locked while technically true, doesn't cover it fully. And even if its choice locked, what likes taking Kyurem's freeze dry? The only ones I can think of are Glowking, Iron Crown, Heatran, Scizor and Tinkaton (though if there are more that I missed, they prob still don't like taking Kyurem's hits). Heatran gets decimated by HDB Kyurem, so if they switch in that and it reveals its not specs, you now have lost a mon. Scizor and Tinkaton don't have longevity and thus get chipped down repeatedly, though they are decent temporary answers. That just leaves glowking and Iron Crown, which is two mons. Yeah... not good. As stated above, the other sets just switch to another move and start to wreck the opposing team. Gliscor is forced to tera on DD sets, as that's the only one it remotely has a chance against.
Wellspring does in fact fail to ko a full health gliscor, but it has a few things it can do. Firstly, it can use encore, which gliscor hates because now its much more vulnerable. Even +2 e-quake 46% max (which why did you let it get to +2 and e-quake before going into wellspring) so it can even be alright against it. Secondly, Gliscor is not going to be at full health most of the time, across the battle gliscor is going to be taking lots of chip damage because it can try to heal it off passively with poison heal. Ivy cudgel does 77% max to gliscor, which most of the time forces gliscor to protect in order to stay out of ko range. The wellspring player can potentially take advantage of this by SD'ing and thus now has an extremely threatening mon. "But what if the gliscor player predicts the SD and attacks your wellspring while you set up" Well, that's why you try to catch them on that, thus you have a 50/50 chance in order to beat gliscor, which is what happens a lot with gliscor trying to outplay lots of the tier.
You didn't mention darkrai, but while gliscor can hit it hard, it also is decimated by it. It can tera to beat it, but that's still not the worst thing in the world as gliscor now falls to the electric hits it could pivot in and out of.
Rilla? Sure til it scouts the move and pivots into helmet Skarmory or Corv, and who knows what else they have. Cornerstone though? Ivy Cudgel does 51% max to spdef Gliscor, to say nothing of phydef. It gets shredded by SD Scor. Also when it comes to hex, it’s just Pult. You’re never justifying the use of a lower tier ghost when Pult is around unless your Ceru or Sini which fill different roles. Speaking of, Sini is a great check but lacking boots, can still be prone to overwhelmed by hazards and Gliscor teammates.
Yeah, and its forced to pivot into said mons, which you can yourself, pivot out into a mon that threatens said switch in. And if the gliscor player gets cheeky and stays in?
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 244 HP / 248+ Def Gliscor in Grassy Terrain: 252-297 (71.5 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
And frankly, scouting moves and switching into resists isn't really anything new. Specs Pult giving you trouble? Pivot into glowking, and see what move they use. If its shadow ball, switch into a ghost resist. Draco meteor? Pivot into a steel or fairy type. The cornerstone one I'm a bit iffy on myself, as I don't really believe its a good gliscor switch in unless its packing encore, which on cornerstone is a lot more difficult.
Also hex is used on gholdengo (which Air balloon sets stonewall the classic facade+e-quake sets as long as they keep it intact) so its not just Pult. And even if it was just these two, it would still be a big thing to be weak to. Dragapult is prob a top 10 mon and while gholdengo has fallen off a bit from its peak, its still a really dangerous mon. Also skeledirge and sinisthca are two users that can use hex. Both are weak to knock off but they can threaten scor out. And a mon being overwhelmed by teammates isn't a gliscor only thing, you could name most things in the tier and say they are broken if there checks can be overwhelmed by teammates. But what do you have? Your own teammates. Tusk can help spin away those hazards. Primarina can help against those pesky dark types that threaten sinis.
Hatt prim and Glowking all lose to SD Gliscor, especially since you want try the Tera argument and SD Scor abuses it really well to muscle through these mons. Also regarding Gweezing, its fringe at best and mostly a bad Pokémon so it’s not worth mentioning.
Primarina and Glowking lose to SD scor, so I'll give you that, but hatt can do well enough in the short term. Psychic noise can do decent damage to gliscor and turn off its healing temporarily, which can be big for outplaying it.
While geezing is very fringe, it is worth mentioning since it can screw over gliscor by turning off poison heal. It's not really the best thing in the world, but just a mention is fair.
Some mons do struggle with some sets of gliscor more, but quite a few do well against both. Wellspring, Kyurem, Weavile, Darkrai, Pult, Meowscarada and Special Valiant. Can gliscor tech moves or tera's to try and beat these? Yes. But every mon can do that this gen and Gliscor doing it is not out of the norm.
Rilla has terrible longevity because it so often loses health switching in because of hazards, and often while doing so to soak a resisted hit. It’s somewhat of a meme that Rilla can’t switch into much of anything. Not sure why you’re comparing Regen mons to Gliscor. It has significant longevity because it’s immune to spikes while Mola and Glowking are at risk of knock off making them much easier to break down.
Rilla has alright longevity. It has the problems you mentioned, but g-terrain providing chip healing every turn helps with that a bit. And if you can keep hazards off (which isn't the most strenuous task ever) then rilla has amazing longevity.
Honestly, mola and gking only have slightly less longevity compared to gliscor. They don't have to dedicate a moveslot in order to squeeze as much out of there healing, they just have to switch out, which is the name of the game in Pokemon. The are a bit at risk of knock off and hazard chip, but they still are most likely getting a tiny amount of health back. And if again, there are no hazards, they are knock off absorbers (well, mola is, gking not so much).
The post he was replying to stated that Landorus checks checks all the thing Gliscor checks, which I'm not really sure on as stuff like gouging fire and zamazenta are much better into gliscor as they don't have to worry about the chip damage of helmet and for the latter, doesn't have to worry about being dealt lots of damage even if its boosted its defense. What he's trying to say is that banning Gliscor because Landorus would be able to fill its defensive niche is not a reason to ban Gliscor. They do different things and even if they did similar things, that's still iffy reasoning.
Only Lu is comparable to Gliscor in this regard and yes, it’s meta game defining in its own right. But it at least offers anti offense use while not being constraining and polarizing to deal with.
I’m not even sold on a Gliscor ban at this point, it’s not even at its peak it was during DLC1, but denying its impact on the tier is silly when it certainly is a centralizing and difficult Mon to answer.
I don't think he's trying to deny its impact. Simply put, if gliscor was banned, there would be mons that would fill its spiking niche. SD niche? No, nothing can really replicate that. But spiking niche? Kind of. He was replying to the "Less spikes comment", so he wasn't even addressing the SD portion of it.
Not really…? I mean yeah they’re nice to have in those instances but you don’t need to slap on ice coverage for Lando nor do you need it for ground types (we have water type moves if you want that), dragons (we have fairies and other methods), flying types (most flyers are neutral to ice in OU outside Zapdos), and there’s no need for coverage against grasses when we have so few good ones (rilla is mega easy to wear down with neutral hits, meow has awful bulk). If Gliscor left, we’d definitely see less ice beam on mons (hell DeoS and Darkrai would have room for more moves and Glowking wouldn’t feel pressured to run it so Gliscor isn’t getting free switches).
Sure, mons would probably drop these ice moves, but they are not actively crippling themselves a whole lot by using it. Darkrai and Deos? That hits the many ground types of the tier that could potentially take a hit and ko back. Tusk? Still good against dnite, rilla, opposing tusk, lando and moon. Even glowking, who probably hates fitting it in the most, does better against bolt, lando, tusk (without having to wait two turns), d-nite (though t-wave helps with it too) and pult (same deal with t-wave).
Them running ice coverage for gliscor is not the worst thing in the world, and while gliscor might make some drop it (glowking would def drop it, others would still run it as it is very valuable in this meta.
So, yapping aside, Gliscor is NOT BROKEN. Is it annoying? Yes, and I won't even try to deny it. I sigh when I see a scor on team preview. But just because a mon is annoying doesn't mean its broken. I'm not trying to imply that others who think scor is broken needs to 'get gud', because they obviously have valid reasons to why its broken. But to me, gliscor struggles a lot with more offensive pressure and not passively playing around it. If you try to use the usual methods of chipping a mon down through hazards and knock before finishing them off from low health? Yes, gliscor is going to be a pain in the fucking ass and will look broken. But if you offensively pressure it and take advantage of its forced protects? It's still going to be a bit annoying to deal with, but much more managable. If you hit gliscor hard, it will have to find free turns in order to get back its health. And if you keep up said offensive pressure then its not really going to get many chances to do that. If you don't let gliscor play its game, which quite a few people don't do, then it is not going to play you like the damn fiddle.
One final thing I will say is if you are scared of a Gliscor ban bringing back ZapKingLu, don't be. That core is most likely never coming back to the level it was in late DLC1, many tools in the tier prevent that. Weavile is an absolute pain to this core, and is definetely not broken, while Meowscara helps a lot too. Deo-S helps too if you can manage hazards as it knocks all of these mons and then threatens them with big damage. Raging bolt kinda just makes zapdos hate its existance. And there are probably more that I'm not accounting for that can help. If you want to not ban gliscor, don't do it out of fear for the supposed unknown. Nothing will change if you fear that. Most likely, the future meta will be a lot different then you think it will be. I don't think anyone thought gouging would pop up after arch left. Darkrai I don't believe was thought to potentially become broken if volc was banned (I searched through the volc suspect thread for any mentions of darkrai, and I couldn't find any that said about it becoming broken). I know a 'worse' meta because of a ban seems scary, but a potential 'better' meta could also be behind that door.
Im no pro player but i got to 1800s with it. i made a larger post explaining why its effective a couple pages back. A lot of sun pokemon are so strong this gen they dont need sun forever like chlorophyll pokemon do. Having it up for the proto boost 2-3 turns almost feels like offensive Z to blow past would be checks.
I hope everyone in the US had a good 4th of July, but now let’s address something that affects us at a worldwide scale. I want to inform the public about what I find to be the most banworthy and unhealthy mon in the metagame. It’s not Darkrai or Kyurem or Wogre or Zama or any of these other mons mentioned. Storm Zone and CTC brought it up in their posts about the survey. Normally I am not one to agree with some of their more outlandish takes, but I 100% agree with their stance about Gliscor. It’s a plague in the metagame. I would go as far in saying that Gliscor is public enemy number 1 and the mon I would 100% push for a suspect. Strap yourselves up cause this is gonna be long.
Before I explain why I feel this strong hatred for Gliscor, I wanna say that the utility sets are not the problem, in fact I consider them good for the meta, being a strong defensive glue that fulfills several important roles, yet is still exploitable by the tier’s strong offensive behemoths like Kyurem and Wogre, but like Archaludon before, the offensive sets are what broke it. The Swords Dance set which has solidified itself as the best variant of Gliscor, and sparks the few ounces of discussion for a suspect. For the purposes of keeping this focused, I will only mention the SD set with some nods to utility Gliscor.
SD Gliscor’s pool of checks are already small, consisting of the Steel Birds, Dondozo, Tusk, Wogre, Encore, and fast Ice move user. However this list becomes shallower when you consider that Gliscor can very easily outlast them.
These three are some of the most discussed mons in the tier for a suspect and are also the best breakers in OU. However what these three have in common is that they all be beaten long term with hazards, status, and chip damage. This is how good Balances manage to handle these monsterous threats or any breaker for that matter, however none of this applies to Gliscor, which pushes it over the edge.
Poison Heal invalidates every common form of progress making such as chip dmg, Knock Off, hazards, and status. Meanwhile Gliscor comes in plenty of times, and has Knock to force its own progress. Since it’s often paired with Spikes, the opponent’s check will be worn down way before Gliscor goes down.
Uninteractive Gameplay
Gliscor bounces off Knock Off and SR chip, while being immune to status from mons like Glowking or Dragapult. Poison Heal also means it can be chipped for big damage and still heal it off. If you try checking it defensively, Gliscor is just gonna get up more SD boosts. The only way to actually deal with Gliscor is to one-shot it, and very few mons in the tier actually can. Since Gliscor is a bulky li’l bitch with only 2 weaknesses, your options are limited to Ice moves or really strong Water STAB. Let’s look at the mons that have these options.
View attachment 645721: Doesn’t even one-shot max SpD Gliscor with Ice Spinner, gets Knock’d in return and chipped by hazards.
View attachment 645722: Needs Modest and SpA investment to one-shot Gliscor with Ice Beam and even that has a roll to fail vs SpD variants. Can’t switch into Gliscor at all.
View attachment 645723: Ice Fang doesn’t one-shot, also rare on Zama outside of AoA sets, and it would greatly prefer Stone Edge to combat the rising usage of Moltres.
View attachment 645727: Cudgel only has a 12.5% chance to OHKO Gliscor even with no Def investment and gets bounced off by mixed or physically defensive variants, meanwhile +2 Facade does a shitton. Has to Tera in order to guarantee the one-shot.
View attachment 645728: Needs Life Orb in order to one-shot and can’t switch into Knock at all.
View attachment 645729: Ice Spinner bounces off physically or mixed bulky Gliscor, also hates being Knock’d.
View attachment 645730: Specially bulky Gliscor tanks a Surf. Hydro Pump is too inaccurate and risky. Easily worn down by Knock + Spikes and can get OHKOd by +2 Facade/EQ after rocks.
View attachment 645733: Bounces off Waterfall and Avalanche still doesn’t one shot. Gets destroyed by Knock Off + hazards.
View attachment 645734: Specs Hydro Steam is Sun exclusive. Boots sets cannot OHKO SpD or mixed bulk Gliscor without Hydro Pump which is unreliable and can be PP stalled by Protect.
Everything else is just niche and/or doesn’t OHKO Gliscor anyways. So out of all of these, 7 OU relevant mons can OHKO a healthy Gliscor. One of them has to Terastilize in order to guarantee a one-shot, the other can be scouted with Protect, another needs LO in order to kill, and 2 have inaccurate Ice moves. While all of these can do a lot of damage to Gliscor, it doesn’t matter when Gliscor can very easily heal all the way back up with the amount of switch-in opportunities it has.
Choice users like Rillaboom and Specs Dragapult get scouted by Protect, thus allowing Gliscor to recover even more health. So even if they could threaten a KO, Gliscor simply can switch out. No other mon has that level of longevity and bulk.
Broken With Tera
Imo Gliscor is the most broken abuser of Tera in OU, even moreso than Volcarona was. Normally this isn’t really a talking point, because a majority of the tier can break through their checks with Tera. Kyurem clicking Tera Ground to 1v1 Kingambit and Zama clicking Tera Fire to 1v1 Dragapult. This is to be expected in SV OU, and players have learned to exploit that dynamic with team synergies. Dragapult can lose to Tera Fire Zama, but when paired with Lando, it creates a core that dispatches Zama regardless of what Tera it runs. It’s not that simple with SD Gliscor.
Because offensive and defensive counterplay is so limited, a single flip of the coin can turn into a disaster, and Gliscor is bulky enough to take almost any neutral hit, so even if you do force a Tera, Gliscor is probably gonna still live that next hit. Gliscor is also much less predictable with Tera types, either being Water, Fairy, Dragon, Steel, Normal, or Grass. It makes Gliscor difficult to manage even for Offensive teams who have members that die from 1-2 hits to an SD boosted Gliscor and that raw bulk means Gliscor takes 2 for 1 against aggressive builds, possibly taking down the whole team too. Tera Normal is the most broken of all these, turning Gliscor into a budget Ursaluna that heals itself every turn.
There’s also a lot less risk to Terastilizing into a Normal type cause there’s only like 3 Fighting types in the tier and none of them are actually able to OHKO a healthy Gliscor with minimal Def investment.
252 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0+ Def Tera Normal Gliscor: 296-350 (84 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+1 252+ Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 244 HP / 0+ Def Tera Normal Gliscor: 296-350 (84 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0+ Def Tera Normal Gliscor: 296-350 (84 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
Overly Dominant Vs Playstyles
When you combine a broken setup sweeper that never dies with great bulk, only two weaknesses, a negligence for passive damage, and Tera, you get Gliscor. Even well built Balances fall to a free SD Gliscor sweep, and Gliscor is ironically really good on Balance teams. All counterplay can either be outlasted by Gliscor or turned into a sack with Tera. Those Lando/Gking/Gambit/Cinder Offenses? Gliscor shits on them after Tera. Zapdos + Gking BO? Free Swords Dances. There’s no other mon in the tier can run away with games as easily as Gliscor. HO is the best playstyle rn and its the only one that SD Gliscor doesn’t absolutely shit on. Even so, Gliscor can very easily pair itself with anti-HO mons like Garganacl, Dnite, and Roar Moltres.
And now I wanna take a moment to look at these aforementioned “checks” shall we.
View attachment 645744View attachment 645745: Both can get Roost and Body Press PP stalled by Gliscor long term, resisting Body Press and healing them off even at +6. Gliscor can also very easily switch out to another resist/Ghost and come back out.
View attachment 645746: Garbage mon that only fits on Stall. You need Avalanche for Gliscor but if you run that, then Gambit can 1v1 you. Knock + hazards also beats you long term.
View attachment 645747: Can 2HKO with Ice Spinner but gets worn down by Gliscor longterm. Gets Violated hard by Tera.
So lets say you think Gliscor is SD, you swap to Wogre, predicting them to click Swords Dance. Oops! It was Utility Gliscor and now your Wogre got Toxic’d. The next game you load up, you swap to Mola, not worrying about it eating a Toxic, then it reveals Swords Dance and now it gets up another boost as you Flip Turn. Then it Teras in front of Darkrai and sweeps the whole teams, ggs fucker.
The vastly different responses each set has makes dealing with Gliscor harder than it already is.
Limits Creativity
Gliscor shuts down a lot of strategies and makes some mons obsolete cause of their inability to threaten Gliscor. If anything it discourages the use of otherwise helpful Pokemon, whether they are OU viable or niche.
View attachment 645761: Zapdos punishes braindead offense teams with paralysis but is walled by Gliscor without some tech like Weather Ball.
View attachment 645762: Tinakton for example, checks several threats, most notably Darkrai and provides endless utility + a Knock absorber thanks to Pickpocket, but is setup bait for Gliscor.
View attachment 645763: Even cool shit like Okidogi hard lose to Gliscor if it doesn’t have Ice Punch.
Choice users already are limited by hazards, but are restricted further by Gliscor just clicking Protect.
While I do still hate Darkrai, it encouraged players to look deeper in the builder for creative niche options like Keldeo, Okidogi, Fezandipiti, Iron Hands, and SpD Bellibolt. These are mons that checks Darkrai but do other things in battle. I would sooner remove Gliscor because it discourages creativity more than Rai/Kyu/Zama/Wogre, or any of these other mons.
Not only is Gliscor a great Knock abuser in the tier because of how easily it can come in and get it off, but this argument falls further to the ground when a majority of Knock abusers threaten Gliscor or at least 1v1 it such as Darkrai, Weavile, Deoxys, Samu, Clefable, Great Tusk, and Meowscarada.
“It falls to offensive pressure”
When you have a mon as bulky as Gliscor who can easily recover off the damage and Tera on top of that, it’s not going down easily.
“Banning it would only make defensive teams worse and offensive teams stronger”
HO has the best matchup into Gliscor and if anything, SD Gliscor restricts defensive teams even more than Kyurem or Ogerpon. Banning Gliscor would encourage defensive teams to run more options like Zapdos that perform well into these offensive teams. While SD Gliscor hasn’t seen a ton of notable WCOP appearences (mostly because alot of them are too scared to go for the win) its effects are felt. Part of the reason you see so much offense is because its the only matchup that doesn’t have an astronomical disadvantage against Gliscor.
“It keeps things in check”
While it does check some key threats like Zama, Raging Bolt, Roaring Moon, and Gouging Fire, there’s already a mon that can check these threats, it’s called Landorus. Gliscor’s defensive role is not something that can’t be fulfilled by other already high tier mons in the meta.
“Without Gliscor we would be in the King/Zap/Lu meta”
I swear, some of y’all have an unhealthy hatred for this core from the last metagames. It was developed during DLC1 which only lasted a few months, if that was the only DLC then the meta would eventually branch out of these team structures. Even without Gliscor, the meta is better equipped in handling this core. Mixed Kyurem blows this shit away, Specs Bolt does a ton even to Ting-Lu, Roaring Moon can cripple Lu/Zap, Weavile/Meow are way better now, etc. Can we stop using this shitty scapegoat as an excuse to not test Gliscor or any mon for that matter?
The main benefit is that Balance/Fat/Stall becomes better as they now don’t have to worry about an SD Gliscor 6-0ing them. While Balance is still high in usage (though eclipsed by offensive teams) running them was a risk cause of SD Gliscor. Players would be more encouraged to bring slower builds, creating more team diversity.
Beneficial and Niche Mons Become Better
There are several mons in the meta that help the tier but they give Gliscor free turns. Here’s a list of mons that benefit from a Gliscorless meta.
Not held back at all by Gluscor, but appreciates a metagame without it regardless.
No longer hard walled by Gliscor. Offensive sets can also thrive and take SD Gliscor’s original niche.
Takes up Gliscor’s defensive niche and becomes better at making progress.
Offensive and Wisp variants become much better.
Cool defensive mon that checks special attackers no longer having to worry about being the freest Gliscor food ever.
Both walled by SpD Gliscor. Without Gliscor, their anti-offense niches take a larger effect, especially for Zapdos.
Utility sets become even better without it giving up free switch-ins for Gliscor.
Checks Zama, Darkrai, and others. No longer has to slot in Ice Punch and could just Knock Lando for chip.
Cool niche mon that Leng Loi and Pinkacross did a teambuilding stream with. It checks Darkrai, Valiant, and non-Heavy Slam Zama while pivoting or spreading Toxic like wildfire. It’d see more legit usage without Gliscor using it for free turns.
Another hype mon that wouldn’t have to run Tera Blast in order to break defensive teams. Knock and Grass Knot does the trick vs Lando, Tusk, and Ting-Lu. Plus Prankster T-Wave to dissuade certain HO mons.
Electric type with good bulk and the rare ability to Toxic Grounds. Not having to run Soak or Tera Blast to hit Gliscor anymore is huge. Specially Bulky Bellibolt can soft-check threats like Darkrai, Valiant, Raging Bolt, Gholdengo, and Zapdo with Toxic or paralysis. Shout outs go to Spook.
Lets be honest, without Gliscor, this thing would cook as seen in the Home metagame where Gliscor wasn’t added yet. Great special bulk and reliable Ghost resist that can spam Knock Off and Poison. It’s also a really good Darkrai check that can punish its teammates with Poison Touch Knock Offs.
The more I think about it, the more I think Umbreon would find a niche in a Gliscor-less meta. It’s a Dark/Ghost resist with reliable recovery and Toxic. Umbreon also punishes greedy status spam with Synchronize which is notable into Hex Pult and Wisp variants of Darkrai. It also blanks Boots and Mixed variants of Kyurem pretty hard.
Without Gliscor, we can see more cool niche picks on ladder and tours.
Less Spikes
If you hate Spikes, then banning Gliscor would give you one less Spikes setter to worry about.
Conclusion
To everyone who hates Gliscor, voice your stances now while the cauldron is still boiling. If you love creativity, if you love to see niche picks pop up, and if you love a healthier metagame, then I encourage you to join the Ban Gliscor side and say no to Gliscor. By the end of WCOP, I hope we can spread awareness of Gliscor’s chokehold on the meta and push for a suspect test.
100% agree. I made a post 7 months ago saying that once the broken mons went ubers gliscor would rise to the top again. This thing nullifies a ton of strategies and cool mons that would deal with large portions of the meta in a healthy way but are completely walled by gliscor.
SD is of course a problem but the support sets are also evil. Nothing besides oposing gliscor can swith into the eq+knock+toxic set without being crippled in some way or another, not even clef or corv.
This shit is inmortal and last forever, making defensive teams to powerful. If your only way of breaking stall is something like wogerpon or darkrai you are one tera + toxic away from losing the match up.
I said it once and i say it again, gliscor is unhealthy and while its true that checks some important mons like zama i think that the things it does once it is on the field are just too impossible to deal with, it wouldnt be a problem if it wasnt INMUNE TO EVERYTHING.
Gliscor must go, once its gone the tier will be far far better than it is right now.
oh shit i just realized... gliscor means gliding scorpion? damn we really do live in a society
maybe it's the semistall player in me talking but i dont really care how OP gliscor is, i feel like SV OU is more enjoyable when gliscor is around. its a mon that packs so much utility in one teamslot that fundamentally is not only good but better without teraing. queen-piece style mon. i dont think we would go back to glowtingzap without it but i do feel that defensive teams get way worse without it. but really im speaking out of personal preference, arguments for its ban are very appealing. i would just rather play in a glisc meta.
have ppl gone back to old metas and started using protect instead of roost? i think thatd be a neat adaptation. glisc feels sooo much better with protect and i dont think that was discovered until this gen
I can officially confirm that even when your team is Zapdos, Moltres, Garchomp and Glimmora, mid ladder will still spam U-turn on you. Does no-one realise they still let you switch Pokemon without it in this game?
I hope everyone in the US had a good 4th of July, but now let’s address something that affects us at a worldwide scale. I want to inform the public about what I find to be the most banworthy and unhealthy mon in the metagame. It’s not Darkrai or Kyurem or Wogre or Zama or any of these other mons mentioned. Storm Zone and CTC brought it up in their posts about the survey. Normally I am not one to agree with some of their more outlandish takes, but I 100% agree with their stance about Gliscor. It’s a plague in the metagame. I would go as far in saying that Gliscor is public enemy number 1 and the mon I would 100% push for a suspect. Strap yourselves up cause this is gonna be long.
Before I explain why I feel this strong hatred for Gliscor, I wanna say that the utility sets are not the problem, in fact I consider them good for the meta, being a strong defensive glue that fulfills several important roles, yet is still exploitable by the tier’s strong offensive behemoths like Kyurem and Wogre, but like Archaludon before, the offensive sets are what broke it. The Swords Dance set which has solidified itself as the best variant of Gliscor, and sparks the few ounces of discussion for a suspect. For the purposes of keeping this focused, I will only mention the SD set with some nods to utility Gliscor.
SD Gliscor’s pool of checks are already small, consisting of the Steel Birds, Dondozo, Tusk, Wogre, Encore, and fast Ice move user. However this list becomes shallower when you consider that Gliscor can very easily outlast them.
These three are some of the most discussed mons in the tier for a suspect and are also the best breakers in OU. However what these three have in common is that they all be beaten long term with hazards, status, and chip damage. This is how good Balances manage to handle these monsterous threats or any breaker for that matter, however none of this applies to Gliscor, which pushes it over the edge.
Poison Heal invalidates every common form of progress making such as chip dmg, Knock Off, hazards, and status. Meanwhile Gliscor comes in plenty of times, and has Knock to force its own progress. Since it’s often paired with Spikes, the opponent’s check will be worn down way before Gliscor goes down.
Uninteractive Gameplay
Gliscor bounces off Knock Off and SR chip, while being immune to status from mons like Glowking or Dragapult. Poison Heal also means it can be chipped for big damage and still heal it off. If you try checking it defensively, Gliscor is just gonna get up more SD boosts. The only way to actually deal with Gliscor is to one-shot it, and very few mons in the tier actually can. Since Gliscor is a bulky li’l bitch with only 2 weaknesses, your options are limited to Ice moves or really strong Water STAB. Let’s look at the mons that have these options.
View attachment 645721: Doesn’t even one-shot max SpD Gliscor with Ice Spinner, gets Knock’d in return and chipped by hazards.
View attachment 645722: Needs Modest and SpA investment to one-shot Gliscor with Ice Beam and even that has a roll to fail vs SpD variants. Can’t switch into Gliscor at all.
View attachment 645723: Ice Fang doesn’t one-shot, also rare on Zama outside of AoA sets, and it would greatly prefer Stone Edge to combat the rising usage of Moltres.
View attachment 645727: Cudgel only has a 12.5% chance to OHKO Gliscor even with no Def investment and gets bounced off by mixed or physically defensive variants, meanwhile +2 Facade does a shitton. Has to Tera in order to guarantee the one-shot.
View attachment 645728: Needs Life Orb in order to one-shot and can’t switch into Knock at all.
View attachment 645729: Ice Spinner bounces off physically or mixed bulky Gliscor, also hates being Knock’d.
View attachment 645730: Specially bulky Gliscor tanks a Surf. Hydro Pump is too inaccurate and risky. Easily worn down by Knock + Spikes and can get OHKOd by +2 Facade/EQ after rocks.
View attachment 645733: Bounces off Waterfall and Avalanche still doesn’t one shot. Gets destroyed by Knock Off + hazards.
View attachment 645734: Specs Hydro Steam is Sun exclusive. Boots sets cannot OHKO SpD or mixed bulk Gliscor without Hydro Pump which is unreliable and can be PP stalled by Protect.
Everything else is just niche and/or doesn’t OHKO Gliscor anyways. So out of all of these, 7 OU relevant mons can OHKO a healthy Gliscor. One of them has to Terastilize in order to guarantee a one-shot, the other can be scouted with Protect, another needs LO in order to kill, and 2 have inaccurate Ice moves. While all of these can do a lot of damage to Gliscor, it doesn’t matter when Gliscor can very easily heal all the way back up with the amount of switch-in opportunities it has.
Choice users like Rillaboom and Specs Dragapult get scouted by Protect, thus allowing Gliscor to recover even more health. So even if they could threaten a KO, Gliscor simply can switch out. No other mon has that level of longevity and bulk.
Broken With Tera
Imo Gliscor is the most broken abuser of Tera in OU, even moreso than Volcarona was. Normally this isn’t really a talking point, because a majority of the tier can break through their checks with Tera. Kyurem clicking Tera Ground to 1v1 Kingambit and Zama clicking Tera Fire to 1v1 Dragapult. This is to be expected in SV OU, and players have learned to exploit that dynamic with team synergies. Dragapult can lose to Tera Fire Zama, but when paired with Lando, it creates a core that dispatches Zama regardless of what Tera it runs. It’s not that simple with SD Gliscor.
Because offensive and defensive counterplay is so limited, a single flip of the coin can turn into a disaster, and Gliscor is bulky enough to take almost any neutral hit, so even if you do force a Tera, Gliscor is probably gonna still live that next hit. Gliscor is also much less predictable with Tera types, either being Water, Fairy, Dragon, Steel, Normal, or Grass. It makes Gliscor difficult to manage even for Offensive teams who have members that die from 1-2 hits to an SD boosted Gliscor and that raw bulk means Gliscor takes 2 for 1 against aggressive builds, possibly taking down the whole team too. Tera Normal is the most broken of all these, turning Gliscor into a budget Ursaluna that heals itself every turn.
There’s also a lot less risk to Terastilizing into a Normal type cause there’s only like 3 Fighting types in the tier and none of them are actually able to OHKO a healthy Gliscor with minimal Def investment.
252 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0+ Def Tera Normal Gliscor: 296-350 (84 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+1 252+ Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 244 HP / 0+ Def Tera Normal Gliscor: 296-350 (84 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0+ Def Tera Normal Gliscor: 296-350 (84 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
Overly Dominant Vs Playstyles
When you combine a broken setup sweeper that never dies with great bulk, only two weaknesses, a negligence for passive damage, and Tera, you get Gliscor. Even well built Balances fall to a free SD Gliscor sweep, and Gliscor is ironically really good on Balance teams. All counterplay can either be outlasted by Gliscor or turned into a sack with Tera. Those Lando/Gking/Gambit/Cinder Offenses? Gliscor shits on them after Tera. Zapdos + Gking BO? Free Swords Dances. There’s no other mon in the tier can run away with games as easily as Gliscor. HO is the best playstyle rn and its the only one that SD Gliscor doesn’t absolutely shit on. Even so, Gliscor can very easily pair itself with anti-HO mons like Garganacl, Dnite, and Roar Moltres.
And now I wanna take a moment to look at these aforementioned “checks” shall we.
View attachment 645744View attachment 645745: Both can get Roost and Body Press PP stalled by Gliscor long term, resisting Body Press and healing them off even at +6. Gliscor can also very easily switch out to another resist/Ghost and come back out.
View attachment 645746: Garbage mon that only fits on Stall. You need Avalanche for Gliscor but if you run that, then Gambit can 1v1 you. Knock + hazards also beats you long term.
View attachment 645747: Can 2HKO with Ice Spinner but gets worn down by Gliscor longterm. Gets Violated hard by Tera.
So lets say you think Gliscor is SD, you swap to Wogre, predicting them to click Swords Dance. Oops! It was Utility Gliscor and now your Wogre got Toxic’d. The next game you load up, you swap to Mola, not worrying about it eating a Toxic, then it reveals Swords Dance and now it gets up another boost as you Flip Turn. Then it Teras in front of Darkrai and sweeps the whole teams, ggs fucker.
The vastly different responses each set has makes dealing with Gliscor harder than it already is.
Limits Creativity
Gliscor shuts down a lot of strategies and makes some mons obsolete cause of their inability to threaten Gliscor. If anything it discourages the use of otherwise helpful Pokemon, whether they are OU viable or niche.
View attachment 645761: Zapdos punishes braindead offense teams with paralysis but is walled by Gliscor without some tech like Weather Ball.
View attachment 645762: Tinakton for example, checks several threats, most notably Darkrai and provides endless utility + a Knock absorber thanks to Pickpocket, but is setup bait for Gliscor.
View attachment 645763: Even cool shit like Okidogi hard lose to Gliscor if it doesn’t have Ice Punch.
Choice users already are limited by hazards, but are restricted further by Gliscor just clicking Protect.
While I do still hate Darkrai, it encouraged players to look deeper in the builder for creative niche options like Keldeo, Okidogi, Fezandipiti, Iron Hands, and SpD Bellibolt. These are mons that checks Darkrai but do other things in battle. I would sooner remove Gliscor because it discourages creativity more than Rai/Kyu/Zama/Wogre, or any of these other mons.
Not only is Gliscor a great Knock abuser in the tier because of how easily it can come in and get it off, but this argument falls further to the ground when a majority of Knock abusers threaten Gliscor or at least 1v1 it such as Darkrai, Weavile, Deoxys, Samu, Clefable, Great Tusk, and Meowscarada.
“It falls to offensive pressure”
When you have a mon as bulky as Gliscor who can easily recover off the damage and Tera on top of that, it’s not going down easily.
“Banning it would only make defensive teams worse and offensive teams stronger”
HO has the best matchup into Gliscor and if anything, SD Gliscor restricts defensive teams even more than Kyurem or Ogerpon. Banning Gliscor would encourage defensive teams to run more options like Zapdos that perform well into these offensive teams. While SD Gliscor hasn’t seen a ton of notable WCOP appearences (mostly because alot of them are too scared to go for the win) its effects are felt. Part of the reason you see so much offense is because its the only matchup that doesn’t have an astronomical disadvantage against Gliscor.
“It keeps things in check”
While it does check some key threats like Zama, Raging Bolt, Roaring Moon, and Gouging Fire, there’s already a mon that can check these threats, it’s called Landorus. Gliscor’s defensive role is not something that can’t be fulfilled by other already high tier mons in the meta.
“Without Gliscor we would be in the King/Zap/Lu meta”
I swear, some of y’all have an unhealthy hatred for this core from the last metagames. It was developed during DLC1 which only lasted a few months, if that was the only DLC then the meta would eventually branch out of these team structures. Even without Gliscor, the meta is better equipped in handling this core. Mixed Kyurem blows this shit away, Specs Bolt does a ton even to Ting-Lu, Roaring Moon can cripple Lu/Zap, Weavile/Meow are way better now, etc. Can we stop using this shitty scapegoat as an excuse to not test Gliscor or any mon for that matter?
The main benefit is that Balance/Fat/Stall becomes better as they now don’t have to worry about an SD Gliscor 6-0ing them. While Balance is still high in usage (though eclipsed by offensive teams) running them was a risk cause of SD Gliscor. Players would be more encouraged to bring slower builds, creating more team diversity.
Beneficial and Niche Mons Become Better
There are several mons in the meta that help the tier but they give Gliscor free turns. Here’s a list of mons that benefit from a Gliscorless meta.
Not held back at all by Gluscor, but appreciates a metagame without it regardless.
No longer hard walled by Gliscor. Offensive sets can also thrive and take SD Gliscor’s original niche.
Takes up Gliscor’s defensive niche and becomes better at making progress.
Offensive and Wisp variants become much better.
Cool defensive mon that checks special attackers no longer having to worry about being the freest Gliscor food ever.
Both walled by SpD Gliscor. Without Gliscor, their anti-offense niches take a larger effect, especially for Zapdos.
Utility sets become even better without it giving up free switch-ins for Gliscor.
Checks Zama, Darkrai, and others. No longer has to slot in Ice Punch and could just Knock Lando for chip.
Cool niche mon that Leng Loi and Pinkacross did a teambuilding stream with. It checks Darkrai, Valiant, and non-Heavy Slam Zama while pivoting or spreading Toxic like wildfire. It’d see more legit usage without Gliscor using it for free turns.
Another hype mon that wouldn’t have to run Tera Blast in order to break defensive teams. Knock and Grass Knot does the trick vs Lando, Tusk, and Ting-Lu. Plus Prankster T-Wave to dissuade certain HO mons.
Electric type with good bulk and the rare ability to Toxic Grounds. Not having to run Soak or Tera Blast to hit Gliscor anymore is huge. Specially Bulky Bellibolt can soft-check threats like Darkrai, Valiant, Raging Bolt, Gholdengo, and Zapdo with Toxic or paralysis. Shout outs go to Spook.
Lets be honest, without Gliscor, this thing would cook as seen in the Home metagame where Gliscor wasn’t added yet. Great special bulk and reliable Ghost resist that can spam Knock Off and Poison. It’s also a really good Darkrai check that can punish its teammates with Poison Touch Knock Offs.
The more I think about it, the more I think Umbreon would find a niche in a Gliscor-less meta. It’s a Dark/Ghost resist with reliable recovery and Toxic. Umbreon also punishes greedy status spam with Synchronize which is notable into Hex Pult and Wisp variants of Darkrai. It also blanks Boots and Mixed variants of Kyurem pretty hard.
Without Gliscor, we can see more cool niche picks on ladder and tours.
Less Spikes
If you hate Spikes, then banning Gliscor would give you one less Spikes setter to worry about.
Conclusion
To everyone who hates Gliscor, voice your stances now while the cauldron is still boiling. If you love creativity, if you love to see niche picks pop up, and if you love a healthier metagame, then I encourage you to join the Ban Gliscor side and say no to Gliscor. By the end of WCOP, I hope we can spread awareness of Gliscor’s chokehold on the meta and push for a suspect test.
Banning Knock Off(imo at least) souly because of Gliscor wouldnt be very good for the state of SV OU, not only will this make stall harder to break since you cant Knock Off their HDB's or Leftovers but this will generally also make pokemon like Weavile lose a lot of viability in general since it and others like Meowscarada cant force much progress for the most part anymore, should Knock Off get banned. Im not an avid SV OU player anymore as i play older gens for the most part again nowadays but i think banning Knock Off because of Gliscor's dominances would be a terrible mistake, if thats what you're talking about at least.
I hope everyone in the US had a good 4th of July, but now let’s address something that affects us at a worldwide scale. I want to inform the public about what I find to be the most banworthy and unhealthy mon in the metagame. It’s not Darkrai or Kyurem or Wogre or Zama or any of these other mons mentioned. Storm Zone and CTC brought it up in their posts about the survey. Normally I am not one to agree with some of their more outlandish takes, but I 100% agree with their stance about Gliscor. It’s a plague in the metagame. I would go as far in saying that Gliscor is public enemy number 1 and the mon I would 100% push for a suspect. Strap yourselves up cause this is gonna be long.
Before I explain why I feel this strong hatred for Gliscor, I wanna say that the utility sets are not the problem, in fact I consider them good for the meta, being a strong defensive glue that fulfills several important roles, yet is still exploitable by the tier’s strong offensive behemoths like Kyurem and Wogre, but like Archaludon before, the offensive sets are what broke it. The Swords Dance set which has solidified itself as the best variant of Gliscor, and sparks the few ounces of discussion for a suspect. For the purposes of keeping this focused, I will only mention the SD set with some nods to utility Gliscor.
SD Gliscor’s pool of checks are already small, consisting of the Steel Birds, Dondozo, Tusk, Wogre, Encore, and fast Ice move user. However this list becomes shallower when you consider that Gliscor can very easily outlast them.
These three are some of the most discussed mons in the tier for a suspect and are also the best breakers in OU. However what these three have in common is that they all be beaten long term with hazards, status, and chip damage. This is how good Balances manage to handle these monsterous threats or any breaker for that matter, however none of this applies to Gliscor, which pushes it over the edge.
Poison Heal invalidates every common form of progress making such as chip dmg, Knock Off, hazards, and status. Meanwhile Gliscor comes in plenty of times, and has Knock to force its own progress. Since it’s often paired with Spikes, the opponent’s check will be worn down way before Gliscor goes down.
Uninteractive Gameplay
Gliscor bounces off Knock Off and SR chip, while being immune to status from mons like Glowking or Dragapult. Poison Heal also means it can be chipped for big damage and still heal it off. If you try checking it defensively, Gliscor is just gonna get up more SD boosts. The only way to actually deal with Gliscor is to one-shot it, and very few mons in the tier actually can. Since Gliscor is a bulky li’l bitch with only 2 weaknesses, your options are limited to Ice moves or really strong Water STAB. Let’s look at the mons that have these options.
View attachment 645721: Doesn’t even one-shot max SpD Gliscor with Ice Spinner, gets Knock’d in return and chipped by hazards.
View attachment 645722: Needs Modest and SpA investment to one-shot Gliscor with Ice Beam and even that has a roll to fail vs SpD variants. Can’t switch into Gliscor at all.
View attachment 645723: Ice Fang doesn’t one-shot, also rare on Zama outside of AoA sets, and it would greatly prefer Stone Edge to combat the rising usage of Moltres.
View attachment 645727: Cudgel only has a 12.5% chance to OHKO Gliscor even with no Def investment and gets bounced off by mixed or physically defensive variants, meanwhile +2 Facade does a shitton. Has to Tera in order to guarantee the one-shot.
View attachment 645728: Needs Life Orb in order to one-shot and can’t switch into Knock at all.
View attachment 645729: Ice Spinner bounces off physically or mixed bulky Gliscor, also hates being Knock’d.
View attachment 645730: Specially bulky Gliscor tanks a Surf. Hydro Pump is too inaccurate and risky. Easily worn down by Knock + Spikes and can get OHKOd by +2 Facade/EQ after rocks.
View attachment 645733: Bounces off Waterfall and Avalanche still doesn’t one shot. Gets destroyed by Knock Off + hazards.
View attachment 645734: Specs Hydro Steam is Sun exclusive. Boots sets cannot OHKO SpD or mixed bulk Gliscor without Hydro Pump which is unreliable and can be PP stalled by Protect.
Everything else is just niche and/or doesn’t OHKO Gliscor anyways. So out of all of these, 7 OU relevant mons can OHKO a healthy Gliscor. One of them has to Terastilize in order to guarantee a one-shot, the other can be scouted with Protect, another needs LO in order to kill, and 2 have inaccurate Ice moves. While all of these can do a lot of damage to Gliscor, it doesn’t matter when Gliscor can very easily heal all the way back up with the amount of switch-in opportunities it has.
Choice users like Rillaboom and Specs Dragapult get scouted by Protect, thus allowing Gliscor to recover even more health. So even if they could threaten a KO, Gliscor simply can switch out. No other mon has that level of longevity and bulk.
Broken With Tera
Imo Gliscor is the most broken abuser of Tera in OU, even moreso than Volcarona was. Normally this isn’t really a talking point, because a majority of the tier can break through their checks with Tera. Kyurem clicking Tera Ground to 1v1 Kingambit and Zama clicking Tera Fire to 1v1 Dragapult. This is to be expected in SV OU, and players have learned to exploit that dynamic with team synergies. Dragapult can lose to Tera Fire Zama, but when paired with Lando, it creates a core that dispatches Zama regardless of what Tera it runs. It’s not that simple with SD Gliscor.
Because offensive and defensive counterplay is so limited, a single flip of the coin can turn into a disaster, and Gliscor is bulky enough to take almost any neutral hit, so even if you do force a Tera, Gliscor is probably gonna still live that next hit. Gliscor is also much less predictable with Tera types, either being Water, Fairy, Dragon, Steel, Normal, or Grass. It makes Gliscor difficult to manage even for Offensive teams who have members that die from 1-2 hits to an SD boosted Gliscor and that raw bulk means Gliscor takes 2 for 1 against aggressive builds, possibly taking down the whole team too. Tera Normal is the most broken of all these, turning Gliscor into a budget Ursaluna that heals itself every turn.
There’s also a lot less risk to Terastilizing into a Normal type cause there’s only like 3 Fighting types in the tier and none of them are actually able to OHKO a healthy Gliscor with minimal Def investment.
252 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0+ Def Tera Normal Gliscor: 296-350 (84 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+1 252+ Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 244 HP / 0+ Def Tera Normal Gliscor: 296-350 (84 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0+ Def Tera Normal Gliscor: 296-350 (84 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
Overly Dominant Vs Playstyles
When you combine a broken setup sweeper that never dies with great bulk, only two weaknesses, a negligence for passive damage, and Tera, you get Gliscor. Even well built Balances fall to a free SD Gliscor sweep, and Gliscor is ironically really good on Balance teams. All counterplay can either be outlasted by Gliscor or turned into a sack with Tera. Those Lando/Gking/Gambit/Cinder Offenses? Gliscor shits on them after Tera. Zapdos + Gking BO? Free Swords Dances. There’s no other mon in the tier can run away with games as easily as Gliscor. HO is the best playstyle rn and its the only one that SD Gliscor doesn’t absolutely shit on. Even so, Gliscor can very easily pair itself with anti-HO mons like Garganacl, Dnite, and Roar Moltres.
And now I wanna take a moment to look at these aforementioned “checks” shall we.
View attachment 645744View attachment 645745: Both can get Roost and Body Press PP stalled by Gliscor long term, resisting Body Press and healing them off even at +6. Gliscor can also very easily switch out to another resist/Ghost and come back out.
View attachment 645746: Garbage mon that only fits on Stall. You need Avalanche for Gliscor but if you run that, then Gambit can 1v1 you. Knock + hazards also beats you long term.
View attachment 645747: Can 2HKO with Ice Spinner but gets worn down by Gliscor longterm. Gets Violated hard by Tera.
So lets say you think Gliscor is SD, you swap to Wogre, predicting them to click Swords Dance. Oops! It was Utility Gliscor and now your Wogre got Toxic’d. The next game you load up, you swap to Mola, not worrying about it eating a Toxic, then it reveals Swords Dance and now it gets up another boost as you Flip Turn. Then it Teras in front of Darkrai and sweeps the whole teams, ggs fucker.
The vastly different responses each set has makes dealing with Gliscor harder than it already is.
Limits Creativity
Gliscor shuts down a lot of strategies and makes some mons obsolete cause of their inability to threaten Gliscor. If anything it discourages the use of otherwise helpful Pokemon, whether they are OU viable or niche.
View attachment 645761: Zapdos punishes braindead offense teams with paralysis but is walled by Gliscor without some tech like Weather Ball.
View attachment 645762: Tinakton for example, checks several threats, most notably Darkrai and provides endless utility + a Knock absorber thanks to Pickpocket, but is setup bait for Gliscor.
View attachment 645763: Even cool shit like Okidogi hard lose to Gliscor if it doesn’t have Ice Punch.
Choice users already are limited by hazards, but are restricted further by Gliscor just clicking Protect.
While I do still hate Darkrai, it encouraged players to look deeper in the builder for creative niche options like Keldeo, Okidogi, Fezandipiti, Iron Hands, and SpD Bellibolt. These are mons that checks Darkrai but do other things in battle. I would sooner remove Gliscor because it discourages creativity more than Rai/Kyu/Zama/Wogre, or any of these other mons.
Not only is Gliscor a great Knock abuser in the tier because of how easily it can come in and get it off, but this argument falls further to the ground when a majority of Knock abusers threaten Gliscor or at least 1v1 it such as Darkrai, Weavile, Deoxys, Samu, Clefable, Great Tusk, and Meowscarada.
“It falls to offensive pressure”
When you have a mon as bulky as Gliscor who can easily recover off the damage and Tera on top of that, it’s not going down easily.
“Banning it would only make defensive teams worse and offensive teams stronger”
HO has the best matchup into Gliscor and if anything, SD Gliscor restricts defensive teams even more than Kyurem or Ogerpon. Banning Gliscor would encourage defensive teams to run more options like Zapdos that perform well into these offensive teams. While SD Gliscor hasn’t seen a ton of notable WCOP appearences (mostly because alot of them are too scared to go for the win) its effects are felt. Part of the reason you see so much offense is because its the only matchup that doesn’t have an astronomical disadvantage against Gliscor.
“It keeps things in check”
While it does check some key threats like Zama, Raging Bolt, Roaring Moon, and Gouging Fire, there’s already a mon that can check these threats, it’s called Landorus. Gliscor’s defensive role is not something that can’t be fulfilled by other already high tier mons in the meta.
“Without Gliscor we would be in the King/Zap/Lu meta”
I swear, some of y’all have an unhealthy hatred for this core from the last metagames. It was developed during DLC1 which only lasted a few months, if that was the only DLC then the meta would eventually branch out of these team structures. Even without Gliscor, the meta is better equipped in handling this core. Mixed Kyurem blows this shit away, Specs Bolt does a ton even to Ting-Lu, Roaring Moon can cripple Lu/Zap, Weavile/Meow are way better now, etc. Can we stop using this shitty scapegoat as an excuse to not test Gliscor or any mon for that matter?
The main benefit is that Balance/Fat/Stall becomes better as they now don’t have to worry about an SD Gliscor 6-0ing them. While Balance is still high in usage (though eclipsed by offensive teams) running them was a risk cause of SD Gliscor. Players would be more encouraged to bring slower builds, creating more team diversity.
Beneficial and Niche Mons Become Better
There are several mons in the meta that help the tier but they give Gliscor free turns. Here’s a list of mons that benefit from a Gliscorless meta.
Not held back at all by Gluscor, but appreciates a metagame without it regardless.
No longer hard walled by Gliscor. Offensive sets can also thrive and take SD Gliscor’s original niche.
Takes up Gliscor’s defensive niche and becomes better at making progress.
Offensive and Wisp variants become much better.
Cool defensive mon that checks special attackers no longer having to worry about being the freest Gliscor food ever.
Both walled by SpD Gliscor. Without Gliscor, their anti-offense niches take a larger effect, especially for Zapdos.
Utility sets become even better without it giving up free switch-ins for Gliscor.
Checks Zama, Darkrai, and others. No longer has to slot in Ice Punch and could just Knock Lando for chip.
Cool niche mon that Leng Loi and Pinkacross did a teambuilding stream with. It checks Darkrai, Valiant, and non-Heavy Slam Zama while pivoting or spreading Toxic like wildfire. It’d see more legit usage without Gliscor using it for free turns.
Another hype mon that wouldn’t have to run Tera Blast in order to break defensive teams. Knock and Grass Knot does the trick vs Lando, Tusk, and Ting-Lu. Plus Prankster T-Wave to dissuade certain HO mons.
Electric type with good bulk and the rare ability to Toxic Grounds. Not having to run Soak or Tera Blast to hit Gliscor anymore is huge. Specially Bulky Bellibolt can soft-check threats like Darkrai, Valiant, Raging Bolt, Gholdengo, and Zapdo with Toxic or paralysis. Shout outs go to Spook.
Lets be honest, without Gliscor, this thing would cook as seen in the Home metagame where Gliscor wasn’t added yet. Great special bulk and reliable Ghost resist that can spam Knock Off and Poison. It’s also a really good Darkrai check that can punish its teammates with Poison Touch Knock Offs.
The more I think about it, the more I think Umbreon would find a niche in a Gliscor-less meta. It’s a Dark/Ghost resist with reliable recovery and Toxic. Umbreon also punishes greedy status spam with Synchronize which is notable into Hex Pult and Wisp variants of Darkrai. It also blanks Boots and Mixed variants of Kyurem pretty hard.
Without Gliscor, we can see more cool niche picks on ladder and tours.
Less Spikes
If you hate Spikes, then banning Gliscor would give you one less Spikes setter to worry about.
Conclusion
To everyone who hates Gliscor, voice your stances now while the cauldron is still boiling. If you love creativity, if you love to see niche picks pop up, and if you love a healthier metagame, then I encourage you to join the Ban Gliscor side and say no to Gliscor. By the end of WCOP, I hope we can spread awareness of Gliscor’s chokehold on the meta and push for a suspect test.
Okay I finished reading and your TL;DR is "Lando-T is just better for the metagame" WHICH IS EXACTLY THE TYPE OF AGENDA I SUPPORT IN THIS FORMAT SO GO GET EM BRO! WE KILLING THIS GROUND BAT WITH DIS ONE!!!
Banning Knock Off(imo at least) souly because of Gliscor wouldnt be very good for the state of SV OU, not only will this make stall harder to break since you cant Knock Off their HDB's or Leftovers but this will generally also make pokemon like Weavile lose a lot of viability in general since it and others like Meowscarada cant force much progress for the most part anymore, should Knock Off get banned. Im not an avid SV OU player anymore as i play older gens for the most part again nowadays but i think banning Knock Off because of Gliscor's dominances would be a terrible mistake, if thats what you're talking about at least.
Oh sorry that wasn't written with the intention of being taken seriously, yeah I'm aware how stupid banning Knock Off is I was just goofing off because of how strong it is in both good and bad ways.
I do think Gliscor deserves to be looked at considering just how oppressive it can be (and also really boring).
of these, Barra is rain exclusive which is a mediocre playstyle that is quite fishy atm, wake is mostly stuck on sun teams (even if I like pivot sets they aren’t too splash able off sun), Meow is often stuck running scarf to be useful and thus just gets scouted by Gliscor (all while getting ripped up by hazards from Scot’s teammates), and Weavile while good isn’t as useful atm because it doesn’t match up well into the common structures running around.
so Darkrai, DeoS, Kyurem and Wellspring. Of these, Kyurem gets choice locked and scouted by protect (hazards also lol), Wellspring actually fails to KO a full health Gliscor (physical def) with cudgel and gets hit hard by even neutral facade, to say nothing of +2. Backed by that and hazards, yeah. Gliscor has no issue outlasting these checks.
This is just unnecessarily dismissive. The point is to have a wide variety of teams and archetypes that can deal with Gliscor. All these mons are usable in OU on various circumstances. It's up to the player to figure out which ones they want to use in the builder and why. But you certainly have options. Including even things like Barry for rain means more archetypes can deal with Gliscor, not less.
And if you have trouble dealing with hazards, run a team with proper anti-hazard support. Like who runs non-boots Kyurem without proper anti-hazard support? That is really more about being competent in the builder than anything Gliscor does.
Isn't that just the normal team concept? You have mons that check different things and, unless you are stall or maybe some really passive Garg team, you are trying to break past the opponent's defensive cores. If you haven't built your team with this in mind, I don't know what to tell you.
You have mentioned the Gliscor Protect scouting thing several times by now. This is another thing that is not unique to Gliscor whatsoever. Leftovers and Protect on a defensive mon is not quite as good for passive regen, but it's not exactly reinventing the wheel. Play around it like you do anything else with this strategy. The Protect on Gliscor in particular is far more telegraphed. If you know they have to switch out to keep Gliscor, and you know they have a metal bird check, maybe be a smart player? Why not switch out into something that threatens the metal birds after the Protect turn? Problem solved.
I know you are a good enough player to understand stuff as fundamental as this. So I don't get why you seem to be playing dumb here. You know better. For Rillaboom specifically, threatening Gliscor is a win. So is Grassy terrain, which gives your team passive regen and weakens a possible EQ. This can help quite a bit in the Gliscor matchup, especially for some Steel types that would be immune to Toxic and resist Facade.
You sound like someone who doesn't play Cornerstone. You have 3 other tools for Gliscor. I already mentioned Encore. But there is also SD and Tera Rock, which each increase the damage of Ivy Cudgel. Unless they are hazard leads, and sometimes even then, most Cornerstone sets will have one of SD or Encore. You can force Gliscor out. That and it naturally resists Facade. Even if Gliscor retreats, there aren't many things that can switch into Cornerstone.
Also when it comes to hex, it’s just Pult. You’re never justifying the use of a lower tier ghost when Pult is around unless your Ceru or Sini which fill different roles. Speaking of, Sini is a great check but lacking boots, can still be prone to overwhelmed by hazards and Gliscor teammates.
While I spoke of Hex in general, I only actually added Pult to the list for that. Maybe I should have been more clear, but Hex is definitely a move people should be thinking about in general. There are other possible options, but it depends. Sini can wall Gliscor if it's Facade and EQ, but not Knock Off. SD Gliscor can only really afford to run one or two of those moves. The thing is you don't know this ahead of time. So you can't blanket check it with Sini.
Hatt prim and Glowking all lose to SD Gliscor, especially since you want try the Tera argument and SD Scor abuses it really well to muscle through these mons. Also regarding Gweezing, its fringe at best and mostly a bad Pokémon so it’s not worth mentioning.
Hatt is a good check to Gliscor, actually. You completely counter the utility sets with Toxic or Hazards, aren't weak to any one move, and can stop the healing with Psychic Noise. So you don't have to gamble if it is SD or not with Hatt because of Magic Bounce. Hatt is just really good into Gliscor.
Prim doesn't like to take physical hits, but if you can land even one super effective Psychic Noise, you can cripple Gliscor enough to finish it off later. It's not something that usually beats it by itself. But it can be part of the answer. It's definitely workable. I've gotten into Prim lately, and just the threat of Psychic noise is huge into a lot of defensive cores.
Glowking was mentioned by me as a possible Psychic Noise user with other potential counterplay options, but I specifically stated I didn't add it to the list of mons and why. It never really uses that move anyways. If you go back and read it, you might notice that I only added Prim, Hatt, and Crown in that Psychic Noise section. The reasoning I had is all still there.
As for Geezing, I specifically said that it wasn't a counter by itself. But you cannot deny how useful it is in this context. It could be included as one of 2-3 mons on certain teams comps that already use Geezing.
Another potential Geezing strategy is Tera Ghost with Levitate, if you are running a Levitate variant, since can be immune to EQ and Facade while also naturally resisting Knock Off. The only combination of moves that would be problematic are Facade + Knock Off, but this combo also loses to things like Gambit.
Well yes, but also no because the SD set is the one that can really actively destroy you. Utility sets are far more passive and require a bit less urgency. A Tera on the utility set is also not as bad to deal with. You still need to prep for both, but it's the SD set that you more immediately need to force out with chip and/or exposed Tera if you can't KO it or wall its one or two moves.
Rilla has terrible longevity because it so often loses health switching in because of hazards, and often while doing so to soak a resisted hit. It’s somewhat of a meme that Rilla can’t switch into much of anything. Not sure why you’re comparing Regen mons to Gliscor. It has significant longevity because it’s immune to spikes while Mola and Glowking are at risk of knock off making them much easier to break down.
You're not sure why I'm comparing rengen mons to Gliscor? What? Passive healing! I already said it! You were talking so much about Gliscor switching out and healing up. What do you think Poison Heal is? It's passive healing.
The rest of this misses the point. I'll say it again. No one says you need to 1HKO any of those other passive healing mons, be they offensive threats like Rillaboom or bulky walls like Glowking or Alomomola. Why did I make this statement? Because, strictly speaking, it's not always necessary to 1HKO Gliscor. You can still chip it and force it out.
I'm pretty sure 658Greninja said it was. Or at least that banning Gliscor would be fine because we have Lando-T to check the same things, which is wrong for reasons I previously stated. I don't agree with broken checks broken ideology, but Gliscor is certainly nice to have as a glue mon and blanket check to a lot of threats on teams that the T wouldn't be as good on.
Only Lu is comparable to Gliscor in this regard and yes, it’s meta game defining in its own right. But it at least offers anti offense use while not being constraining and polarizing to deal with.
Once again, this was not the point. Third in a row? My response there was a direct response to a quip Gren made about spikes. This is a pet peeve of mine because Gliscor was treated as a red herring for Spikes when it is not even the worst spiker in the tier. The point was getting rid of Gliscor didn't and still wouldn't fix or change the Spikes problem. So that's not a reason to ban it.
I’m not even sold on a Gliscor ban at this point, it’s not even at its peak it was during DLC1, but denying its impact on the tier is silly when it certainly is a centralizing and difficult Mon to answer.
Sure. But it's still not as difficult as some people want to make it sound. I already brought up the list of about 20 mons, which is like half of the 40sh mons in OU, that can be used to deal with Gliscor. This doesn't even include mons like Glowking or Sinistcha, that I didn't include for various reasons. I won't speak for stall since I rarely play it. But for the rest, you should be able to find 2-3 mons in the builder that can deal with Gliscor and fit nearly any team or style.
Not really…? I mean yeah they’re nice to have in those instances but you don’t need to slap on ice coverage for Lando nor do you need it for ground types (we have water type moves if you want that), dragons (we have fairies and other methods), flying types (most flyers are neutral to ice in OU outside Zapdos), and there’s no need for coverage against grasses when we have so few good ones (rilla is mega easy to wear down with neutral hits, meow has awful bulk). If Gliscor left, we’d definitely see less ice beam on mons (hell DeoS and Darkrai would have room for more moves and Glowking wouldn’t feel pressured to run it so Gliscor isn’t getting free switches).
Another numbers thing. I mentioned that Ice was supereffective against about a third of the tier. I'm really starting to wonder how much you actually read of my past post when you keep missing so many key details from it. Like, a third of OU is a pretty big deal. And I didn't even count most of the lower tier mons that are usable in OU.
For Flying types specifically, only the metal birds and Moltres are actually OU and neutral to Ice. Dragonite, Gliscor, Lando-T, and Enamorus are all specifically listed as OU on showdown and weak to Ice. That makes 4 of 7. So no, most Flying types are NOT neutral to Ice. In fact, 3 of those 4 are 4x weak to it. Furthermore, Zapdos is weak to Ice. That make 5 to 3. I didn't count other UU and UUBL mons like Goltres, Pelipper, Hawlucha, Mandibuzz, or Torn, most of which can at least be occasionally seen in OU or on specific archetypes. Of those, only Pelipper is neutral. The rest are weak to Ice.
This doesn't even get into the many Ground type we have, of which only Iron Tread is actually neutral to Ice. Just OU Ground types alone add 3 more since Gliscor and Lando-T were already counted. I could go on and on. You have 4 of 7 OU dragons weak to Ice. Then some further UU and UUBL options which are all weak to Ice. Grass is similar with 2/3 being weak to Ice and other other being Wellspring, with literally 5 UU Grass types that are also usable in OU and weak to Ice. You get it. Ice hits a lot, actually.
The losing Gliscor point is also wrong. You would just see Clod, Lu, and T on more teams, depending on their archetype and comp, because people would need to fill the Gliscor void with something. You'd still see players carrying Ice moves for T, as they always have, especially on physical mons. It's a good way to check the Ground types on everyone's teams.
D-Speed carrying both Ice Beam and Superpower on the mixed LO set helps it deal with Ting Lu easier, as you can deal like 3 quarters damage in two turns on a Ting-Lu switch in. If it has a bit of chip, Ting-Lu no longer becomes a safe switch in.
Darkrai could probably run more Psyshock or whatever, but even that is depending a lot on matchups.
I hope everyone in the US had a good 4th of July, but now let’s address something that affects us at a worldwide scale. I want to inform the public about what I find to be the most banworthy and unhealthy mon in the metagame. It’s not Darkrai or Kyurem or Wogre or Zama or any of these other mons mentioned. Storm Zone and CTC brought it up in their posts about the survey. Normally I am not one to agree with some of their more outlandish takes, but I 100% agree with their stance about Gliscor. It’s a plague in the metagame. I would go as far in saying that Gliscor is public enemy number 1 and the mon I would 100% push for a suspect. Strap yourselves up cause this is gonna be long.
Before I explain why I feel this strong hatred for Gliscor, I wanna say that the utility sets are not the problem, in fact I consider them good for the meta, being a strong defensive glue that fulfills several important roles, yet is still exploitable by the tier’s strong offensive behemoths like Kyurem and Wogre, but like Archaludon before, the offensive sets are what broke it. The Swords Dance set which has solidified itself as the best variant of Gliscor, and sparks the few ounces of discussion for a suspect. For the purposes of keeping this focused, I will only mention the SD set with some nods to utility Gliscor.
SD Gliscor’s pool of checks are already small, consisting of the Steel Birds, Dondozo, Tusk, Wogre, Encore, and fast Ice move user. However this list becomes shallower when you consider that Gliscor can very easily outlast them.
These three are some of the most discussed mons in the tier for a suspect and are also the best breakers in OU. However what these three have in common is that they all be beaten long term with hazards, status, and chip damage. This is how good Balances manage to handle these monsterous threats or any breaker for that matter, however none of this applies to Gliscor, which pushes it over the edge.
Poison Heal invalidates every common form of progress making such as chip dmg, Knock Off, hazards, and status. Meanwhile Gliscor comes in plenty of times, and has Knock to force its own progress. Since it’s often paired with Spikes, the opponent’s check will be worn down way before Gliscor goes down.
Uninteractive Gameplay
Gliscor bounces off Knock Off and SR chip, while being immune to status from mons like Glowking or Dragapult. Poison Heal also means it can be chipped for big damage and still heal it off. If you try checking it defensively, Gliscor is just gonna get up more SD boosts. The only way to actually deal with Gliscor is to one-shot it, and very few mons in the tier actually can. Since Gliscor is a bulky li’l bitch with only 2 weaknesses, your options are limited to Ice moves or really strong Water STAB. Let’s look at the mons that have these options.
View attachment 645721: Doesn’t even one-shot max SpD Gliscor with Ice Spinner, gets Knock’d in return and chipped by hazards.
View attachment 645722: Needs Modest and SpA investment to one-shot Gliscor with Ice Beam and even that has a roll to fail vs SpD variants. Can’t switch into Gliscor at all.
View attachment 645723: Ice Fang doesn’t one-shot, also rare on Zama outside of AoA sets, and it would greatly prefer Stone Edge to combat the rising usage of Moltres.
View attachment 645727: Cudgel only has a 12.5% chance to OHKO Gliscor even with no Def investment and gets bounced off by mixed or physically defensive variants, meanwhile +2 Facade does a shitton. Has to Tera in order to guarantee the one-shot.
View attachment 645728: Needs Life Orb in order to one-shot and can’t switch into Knock at all.
View attachment 645729: Ice Spinner bounces off physically or mixed bulky Gliscor, also hates being Knock’d.
View attachment 645730: Specially bulky Gliscor tanks a Surf. Hydro Pump is too inaccurate and risky. Easily worn down by Knock + Spikes and can get OHKOd by +2 Facade/EQ after rocks.
View attachment 645733: Bounces off Waterfall and Avalanche still doesn’t one shot. Gets destroyed by Knock Off + hazards.
View attachment 645734: Specs Hydro Steam is Sun exclusive. Boots sets cannot OHKO SpD or mixed bulk Gliscor without Hydro Pump which is unreliable and can be PP stalled by Protect.
Everything else is just niche and/or doesn’t OHKO Gliscor anyways. So out of all of these, 7 OU relevant mons can OHKO a healthy Gliscor. One of them has to Terastilize in order to guarantee a one-shot, the other can be scouted with Protect, another needs LO in order to kill, and 2 have inaccurate Ice moves. While all of these can do a lot of damage to Gliscor, it doesn’t matter when Gliscor can very easily heal all the way back up with the amount of switch-in opportunities it has.
Choice users like Rillaboom and Specs Dragapult get scouted by Protect, thus allowing Gliscor to recover even more health. So even if they could threaten a KO, Gliscor simply can switch out. No other mon has that level of longevity and bulk.
Broken With Tera
Imo Gliscor is the most broken abuser of Tera in OU, even moreso than Volcarona was. Normally this isn’t really a talking point, because a majority of the tier can break through their checks with Tera. Kyurem clicking Tera Ground to 1v1 Kingambit and Zama clicking Tera Fire to 1v1 Dragapult. This is to be expected in SV OU, and players have learned to exploit that dynamic with team synergies. Dragapult can lose to Tera Fire Zama, but when paired with Lando, it creates a core that dispatches Zama regardless of what Tera it runs. It’s not that simple with SD Gliscor.
Because offensive and defensive counterplay is so limited, a single flip of the coin can turn into a disaster, and Gliscor is bulky enough to take almost any neutral hit, so even if you do force a Tera, Gliscor is probably gonna still live that next hit. Gliscor is also much less predictable with Tera types, either being Water, Fairy, Dragon, Steel, Normal, or Grass. It makes Gliscor difficult to manage even for Offensive teams who have members that die from 1-2 hits to an SD boosted Gliscor and that raw bulk means Gliscor takes 2 for 1 against aggressive builds, possibly taking down the whole team too. Tera Normal is the most broken of all these, turning Gliscor into a budget Ursaluna that heals itself every turn.
There’s also a lot less risk to Terastilizing into a Normal type cause there’s only like 3 Fighting types in the tier and none of them are actually able to OHKO a healthy Gliscor with minimal Def investment.
252 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0+ Def Tera Normal Gliscor: 296-350 (84 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+1 252+ Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 244 HP / 0+ Def Tera Normal Gliscor: 296-350 (84 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0+ Def Tera Normal Gliscor: 296-350 (84 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
Overly Dominant Vs Playstyles
When you combine a broken setup sweeper that never dies with great bulk, only two weaknesses, a negligence for passive damage, and Tera, you get Gliscor. Even well built Balances fall to a free SD Gliscor sweep, and Gliscor is ironically really good on Balance teams. All counterplay can either be outlasted by Gliscor or turned into a sack with Tera. Those Lando/Gking/Gambit/Cinder Offenses? Gliscor shits on them after Tera. Zapdos + Gking BO? Free Swords Dances. There’s no other mon in the tier can run away with games as easily as Gliscor. HO is the best playstyle rn and its the only one that SD Gliscor doesn’t absolutely shit on. Even so, Gliscor can very easily pair itself with anti-HO mons like Garganacl, Dnite, and Roar Moltres.
And now I wanna take a moment to look at these aforementioned “checks” shall we.
View attachment 645744View attachment 645745: Both can get Roost and Body Press PP stalled by Gliscor long term, resisting Body Press and healing them off even at +6. Gliscor can also very easily switch out to another resist/Ghost and come back out.
View attachment 645746: Garbage mon that only fits on Stall. You need Avalanche for Gliscor but if you run that, then Gambit can 1v1 you. Knock + hazards also beats you long term.
View attachment 645747: Can 2HKO with Ice Spinner but gets worn down by Gliscor longterm. Gets Violated hard by Tera.
So lets say you think Gliscor is SD, you swap to Wogre, predicting them to click Swords Dance. Oops! It was Utility Gliscor and now your Wogre got Toxic’d. The next game you load up, you swap to Mola, not worrying about it eating a Toxic, then it reveals Swords Dance and now it gets up another boost as you Flip Turn. Then it Teras in front of Darkrai and sweeps the whole teams, ggs fucker.
The vastly different responses each set has makes dealing with Gliscor harder than it already is.
Limits Creativity
Gliscor shuts down a lot of strategies and makes some mons obsolete cause of their inability to threaten Gliscor. If anything it discourages the use of otherwise helpful Pokemon, whether they are OU viable or niche.
View attachment 645761: Zapdos punishes braindead offense teams with paralysis but is walled by Gliscor without some tech like Weather Ball.
View attachment 645762: Tinakton for example, checks several threats, most notably Darkrai and provides endless utility + a Knock absorber thanks to Pickpocket, but is setup bait for Gliscor.
View attachment 645763: Even cool shit like Okidogi hard lose to Gliscor if it doesn’t have Ice Punch.
Choice users already are limited by hazards, but are restricted further by Gliscor just clicking Protect.
While I do still hate Darkrai, it encouraged players to look deeper in the builder for creative niche options like Keldeo, Okidogi, Fezandipiti, Iron Hands, and SpD Bellibolt. These are mons that checks Darkrai but do other things in battle. I would sooner remove Gliscor because it discourages creativity more than Rai/Kyu/Zama/Wogre, or any of these other mons.
Not only is Gliscor a great Knock abuser in the tier because of how easily it can come in and get it off, but this argument falls further to the ground when a majority of Knock abusers threaten Gliscor or at least 1v1 it such as Darkrai, Weavile, Deoxys, Samu, Clefable, Great Tusk, and Meowscarada.
“It falls to offensive pressure”
When you have a mon as bulky as Gliscor who can easily recover off the damage and Tera on top of that, it’s not going down easily.
“Banning it would only make defensive teams worse and offensive teams stronger”
HO has the best matchup into Gliscor and if anything, SD Gliscor restricts defensive teams even more than Kyurem or Ogerpon. Banning Gliscor would encourage defensive teams to run more options like Zapdos that perform well into these offensive teams. While SD Gliscor hasn’t seen a ton of notable WCOP appearences (mostly because alot of them are too scared to go for the win) its effects are felt. Part of the reason you see so much offense is because its the only matchup that doesn’t have an astronomical disadvantage against Gliscor.
“It keeps things in check”
While it does check some key threats like Zama, Raging Bolt, Roaring Moon, and Gouging Fire, there’s already a mon that can check these threats, it’s called Landorus. Gliscor’s defensive role is not something that can’t be fulfilled by other already high tier mons in the meta.
“Without Gliscor we would be in the King/Zap/Lu meta”
I swear, some of y’all have an unhealthy hatred for this core from the last metagames. It was developed during DLC1 which only lasted a few months, if that was the only DLC then the meta would eventually branch out of these team structures. Even without Gliscor, the meta is better equipped in handling this core. Mixed Kyurem blows this shit away, Specs Bolt does a ton even to Ting-Lu, Roaring Moon can cripple Lu/Zap, Weavile/Meow are way better now, etc. Can we stop using this shitty scapegoat as an excuse to not test Gliscor or any mon for that matter?
The main benefit is that Balance/Fat/Stall becomes better as they now don’t have to worry about an SD Gliscor 6-0ing them. While Balance is still high in usage (though eclipsed by offensive teams) running them was a risk cause of SD Gliscor. Players would be more encouraged to bring slower builds, creating more team diversity.
Beneficial and Niche Mons Become Better
There are several mons in the meta that help the tier but they give Gliscor free turns. Here’s a list of mons that benefit from a Gliscorless meta.
Not held back at all by Gluscor, but appreciates a metagame without it regardless.
No longer hard walled by Gliscor. Offensive sets can also thrive and take SD Gliscor’s original niche.
Takes up Gliscor’s defensive niche and becomes better at making progress.
Offensive and Wisp variants become much better.
Cool defensive mon that checks special attackers no longer having to worry about being the freest Gliscor food ever.
Both walled by SpD Gliscor. Without Gliscor, their anti-offense niches take a larger effect, especially for Zapdos.
Utility sets become even better without it giving up free switch-ins for Gliscor.
Checks Zama, Darkrai, and others. No longer has to slot in Ice Punch and could just Knock Lando for chip.
Cool niche mon that Leng Loi and Pinkacross did a teambuilding stream with. It checks Darkrai, Valiant, and non-Heavy Slam Zama while pivoting or spreading Toxic like wildfire. It’d see more legit usage without Gliscor using it for free turns.
Another hype mon that wouldn’t have to run Tera Blast in order to break defensive teams. Knock and Grass Knot does the trick vs Lando, Tusk, and Ting-Lu. Plus Prankster T-Wave to dissuade certain HO mons.
Electric type with good bulk and the rare ability to Toxic Grounds. Not having to run Soak or Tera Blast to hit Gliscor anymore is huge. Specially Bulky Bellibolt can soft-check threats like Darkrai, Valiant, Raging Bolt, Gholdengo, and Zapdo with Toxic or paralysis. Shout outs go to Spook.
Lets be honest, without Gliscor, this thing would cook as seen in the Home metagame where Gliscor wasn’t added yet. Great special bulk and reliable Ghost resist that can spam Knock Off and Poison. It’s also a really good Darkrai check that can punish its teammates with Poison Touch Knock Offs.
The more I think about it, the more I think Umbreon would find a niche in a Gliscor-less meta. It’s a Dark/Ghost resist with reliable recovery and Toxic. Umbreon also punishes greedy status spam with Synchronize which is notable into Hex Pult and Wisp variants of Darkrai. It also blanks Boots and Mixed variants of Kyurem pretty hard.
Without Gliscor, we can see more cool niche picks on ladder and tours.
Less Spikes
If you hate Spikes, then banning Gliscor would give you one less Spikes setter to worry about.
Conclusion
To everyone who hates Gliscor, voice your stances now while the cauldron is still boiling. If you love creativity, if you love to see niche picks pop up, and if you love a healthier metagame, then I encourage you to join the Ban Gliscor side and say no to Gliscor. By the end of WCOP, I hope we can spread awareness of Gliscor’s chokehold on the meta and push for a suspect test.
protip: if you really want gliscor banned, you should be pushing for bans of kyurem, waterpon, and/or darkrai right now. if one or more of gliscor's best checks gets the hammer, a lot more people are gonna start looking at it with a skeptical eye. you've gotta be patient now that we have the time for that. play the politics game for now and rally everyone behind one of the popular bans, then gliscor should fall easily later. (plus there's the fact that all three of those should be banned anyway)
I've seen a lot of usage from Tinkaton from high level play in Wcop and other tourneys. Can someone explain why it's a good mon. (note): I've seen mold breaker which I know is a good ability and also pickpocket
I've seen a lot of usage from Tinkaton from high level play in Wcop and other tourneys. Can someone explain why it's a good mon. (note): I've seen mold breaker which I know is a good ability and also pickpocket
Mainly just typing. Being able to actually defensively switch in to threats like Darkai, bolt (if you ev to encore then to tclap/ calm mind), deo-s, enam, iron valaint, and a few more is just valuable. It also has great utility with rocks, t wave, and the already mentioned encore.
I've seen a lot of usage from Tinkaton from high level play in Wcop and other tourneys. Can someone explain why it's a good mon. (note): I've seen mold breaker which I know is a good ability and also pickpocket
im not good enough to even begin to explain, but basically:
-goat typing
-plenty of utility
-blanket check for a lot of broken stuff
-hammer attack goes brrr
it has rocks, knock, encore, taunt and twave. its steel fairy which is the best defensive typing in the game. it lacks stats but with investment it can be a nice special wall against some of the more controversial mons such as kyu and rai. apart from that, the fact that it severely lacks stats in comparison to the rest of the meta make it a very circumstancial mon that only pops out when some other mon is too dominant
im not good enough to even begin to explain, but basically:
-goat typing
-plenty of utility
-blanket check for a lot of broken stuff
-hammer attack goes brrr
it has rocks, knock, encore, taunt and twave. its steel fairy which is the best defensive typing in the game. it lacks stats but with investment it can be a nice special wall against some of the more controversial mons such as kyu and rai. apart from that, the fact that it severely lacks stats in comparison to the rest of the meta make it a very circumstancial mon that only pops out when some other mon is too dominant
It’s not even that Tinkaton’s stat spread is that bad. All it could really use is like maybe 10 extra Attack and 2 Speed. The lack of recovery is what really constrains it from being really good.
I've been trying rain this last couple of days. Seems much better that what I remembered to be honest. I think that Overqwill is extremely underated as a threat in the tier. It absorbs T-Spikes while also being a good pivot aganist gholdengo or DeoS for example, and not a lot of mons want to switch aganist it (Pex is the only that can probably take it on without being worried)
It's an archtype with its limits tho, but I think that with propper effort it could be genuinely brought up in discussions. And in a world where Waterpon is banned, it would just be broken imo
I personally do not see a big problem with SD Gliscor. Offensive is eating well right now with Darkrai, Waterpon, and Kyurem all able to seriously threaten it or force a tera. Gliscor doesn’t want to Tera since it loses its spikes immunity and great defensive typing. If you Tera Water, for example fodder for Rillaboom, Waterpon, and Raging Bolt.
People also tend to forget that Gliscor hits like a wet noodle. This mon has 95 base attack and needs to invest in bulk for longevity. It has to Swords Dance to be moderately threatening, but that gives easy opportunities to bring in consistent checks like Zamazenta and also makes it Encore fodder.
It’s definitely worth keeping an eye on, but with the power level of the tier being what it is and HO already being so strong, I don’t think Gliscor is a problem at the moment.
People also tend to forget that Gliscor hits like a wet noodle. This mon has 95 base attack and needs to invest in bulk for longevity. It has to Swords Dance to be moderately threatening, but that gives easy opportunities to bring in consistent checks like Zamazenta and also makes it Encore fodder.
I mean ehh… not really. SD Gliscor loves to feed on slower bulky teams that send in defensive answers to beat gliscor. You want to send in your own to spike up alongside it and create your own pressure with knock off? Too bad it clicks sd and now you have to switch out or risk getting swept, giving it a meaty +2 facade or a second swords dance. It’s not as if 140 base power moves are all that weak even with 95 attack, still manages sweeps.
I personally do not see a big problem with SD Gliscor. Offensive is eating well right now with Darkrai, Waterpon, and Kyurem all able to seriously threaten it or force a tera.
That’s the problem isn’t it? Sure offense can deal with it fairly well but does a lot more harm to defensive teams than it helps.
I was originally on board with staying in the tier following dlc2 because I thought it would be easier to handle but it just shuts down so many possible strategies on balance and slower teams. Previously mentioned or but also which would be great into offensive teams just gets hardwalled by poison heal. This same strategy happened in dlc1 and I think perhaps counterintuitively defensive teams got better with its removal
I can do a full analysis on the tools balance would love to use but gets shut down by (sd or not) if someone wants it (spoiler, and are big winners) but I’ll keep it concise for now.
I personally do not see a big problem with SD Gliscor. Offensive is eating well right now with Darkrai, Waterpon, and Kyurem all able to seriously threaten it or force a tera. Gliscor doesn’t want to Tera since it loses its spikes immunity and great defensive typing. If you Tera Water, for example fodder for Rillaboom, Waterpon, and Raging Bolt.
People also tend to forget that Gliscor hits like a wet noodle. This mon has 95 base attack and needs to invest in bulk for longevity. It has to Swords Dance to be moderately threatening, but that gives easy opportunities to bring in consistent checks like Zamazenta and also makes it Encore fodder.
It’s definitely worth keeping an eye on, but with the power level of the tier being what it is and HO already being so strong, I don’t think Gliscor is a problem at the moment.
And as top player, xavgb, noted, SD gliscor is unable to deter a number of big threats from setting up, which is not not great when you're trying to cover as many of the top threats as possible. He notably said that since the SD Gliscor balances are outdated, balance either needs further adaptation or bans to not be outclassed in the current meta.
I've seen a lot of usage from Tinkaton from high level play in Wcop and other tourneys. Can someone explain why it's a good mon. (note): I've seen mold breaker which I know is a good ability and also pickpocket
Typing and some specific counter qualities were mentioned, so I'll tunnel on the abilities;
Pickpocket + Air Balloon allows some shenanigans in which you steal enemy items the moment it pops with a contact move. Good stuff for punishing Tusk/Lando, etc. as they use a weaker coverage move to pop it, and it is a very common interaction. Item removal with very good action economy qualities.
Mold Breaker allows it to Thunder Wave Ghold and Gary afaik. Very niche but works well when the situation arises.
be prepared for an even worse hell when 
returns with full vengence, paralyzing everything in site and turning our beautiful metagame into a 50/50 hellhole where relying on 30% dice rolls from Zapdos will be our only way of "checking" things.
.
Not held back at all by Gluscor, but appreciates a metagame without it regardless.
No longer hard walled by Gliscor. Offensive sets can also thrive and take SD Gliscor’s original niche.
Takes up Gliscor’s defensive niche and becomes better at making progress.
Offensive and Wisp variants become much better.
Cool defensive mon that checks special attackers no longer having to worry about being the freest Gliscor food ever.
Both walled by SpD Gliscor. Without Gliscor, their anti-offense niches take a larger effect, especially for Zapdos.
Utility sets become even better without it giving up free switch-ins for Gliscor.
Checks Zama, Darkrai, and others. No longer has to slot in Ice Punch and could just Knock Lando for chip.
Cool niche mon that 
Another hype mon that wouldn’t have to run Tera Blast in order to break defensive teams. Knock and Grass Knot does the trick vs Lando, Tusk, and Ting-Lu. Plus Prankster T-Wave to dissuade certain HO mons.
Electric type with good bulk and the rare ability to Toxic Grounds. Not having to run Soak or Tera Blast to hit Gliscor anymore is huge. Specially Bulky Bellibolt can soft-check threats like Darkrai, Valiant, Raging Bolt, Gholdengo, and Zapdo with Toxic or paralysis. Shout outs go to 
Lets be honest, without Gliscor, this thing would cook as seen in the Home metagame where Gliscor wasn’t added yet. Great special bulk and reliable Ghost resist that can spam Knock Off and Poison. It’s also a really good Darkrai check that can punish its teammates with Poison Touch Knock Offs.
The more I think about it, the more I think Umbreon would find a niche in a Gliscor-less meta. It’s a Dark/Ghost resist with reliable recovery and Toxic. Umbreon also punishes greedy status spam with Synchronize which is notable into Hex Pult and Wisp variants of Darkrai. It also blanks Boots and Mixed variants of Kyurem pretty hard.
is just better for the metagame" WHICH IS EXACTLY THE TYPE OF AGENDA I SUPPORT IN THIS FORMAT SO GO GET EM BRO! WE KILLING THIS GROUND BAT WITH DIS ONE!!!
still manages sweeps.
but also 
which would be great into offensive teams just gets hardwalled by poison heal. This same strategy happened in dlc1 and I think perhaps counterintuitively defensive teams got better with its removal
