DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

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I honestly have no idea where this attitude is coming from. I wasn't being condescending so why to I get this?
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Unfortunately consdescending was exactly what I found your post ...

Besides seemingly blaming my problems with Clefable on poor play "then it's your own fault for letting it happen", you then proceeded to point out the obvious (Clefable having trouble with fighting types, there being other UU stallers) as if I was completely unaware of these factors.

I'm sorry but I really couldn't find any other way of interpretting it, hence the flippancy ... if you feel that I've misrepresented you, then I apologise, but that was my genuine reaction to your post ...

Anyhoo ... I don't think my wireless connection is going to hold out any longer, so it really will be just over a week before I'm back again.

Just one quick thing I noticed the other day ... Hariyama's analysis includes what looks like a UU counter section (Muk, Nido's, 'croak). Was it considered for UU at some point?
 
Bologo said:
Then it can also have STAB Facade, which is extremely powerful when it's a Toxic Orb Clefable (no toxic damage either). Remember, Facade is just as strong as a Draco Meteor from Altaria.
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With a worst typing and the usually much easier to deal with physical side of things.

Hariyama's analysis includes what looks like a UU counter section (Muk, Nido's, 'croak). Was it considered for UU at some point?
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Rather the opposite. It started UU, was considered BL and nobody contested it so off it went.

I think the big things in its favour was that it gained a priority move to go with its Belly Drum. Close Combat. Stone Edge and elemental punches for coverage.

In short it simply gained everything and lost nothing.
 
Shiny Oddish said:
Unfortunately consdescending was exactly what I found your post ...

Besides seemingly blaming my problems with Clefable on poor play "then it's your own fault for letting it happen", you then proceeded to point out the obvious (Clefable having trouble with fighting types, there being other UU stallers) as if I was completely unaware of these factors.

I'm sorry but I really couldn't find any other way of interpretting it, hence the flippancy ... if you feel that I've misrepresented you, then I apologise, but that was my genuine reaction to your post ...

Anyhoo ... I don't think my wireless connection is going to hold out any longer, so it really will be just over a week before I'm back again.

Just one quick thing I noticed the other day ... Hariyama's analysis includes what looks like a UU counter section (Muk, Nido's, 'croak). Was it considered for UU at some point?
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this seems to be what happens to every suggestion i make on this thread (bar phione), just dont take it to heart...the whole discussion seems to be like this :)

anyway, i must say i've not fought enough clefable to make up my mind on it.
 
Clefable is so unpredictable and hard to take down. though the strong fighting types scare it off sometimes, it is tough to counter, and it takes a turn or two to know what its even going to do.
 
rayfordjames said:
Clefable is so unpredictable and hard to take down. though the strong fighting types scare it off sometimes, it is tough to counter, and it takes a turn or two to know what its even going to do.
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The same could be said about things like Altaria though. It's got DDance, Specs Draco Meteor, and bulky sets, all of which can be pulled off with effectively. Like Clefable, a wrong switch in might cost you, but once you get a beat on what kind it is each set is still stoppable.
 
Interesting fact! - Top five posters in this thread

Shiny Oddish - 164
Forsety - 126
Dragontamer - 121
Fishin - 109
Lee - 83

Woooo, just thought I'd share.

Personally, I've never had much of a problem from Clefable. Having said that, I'm a pretty religious Hitmonlee user and that guy is one of the best Clefable counters on the game, with his Thunder Wave immunity and massive Sp Def, plus guaranteed OHKO. Then again, who doesn't use a Fighter in UU? It's such a powerful type down there that Clefable will be perpetually dodging Close Combats and Focus Punches.

And please, please, drop the Blissey comparisons. If Clefable was blue and learned Recover instead of Softboiled, nobody would have ever have made that comparison. There's no sense in comparing 95/90 special defence to 255/135 even when you consider the average lower SpA in UU.
 
Maybe someone could just make the argument that FLAVORWISE Clefable is just like Blissey, and makes some people think of Blissey in its stallishness, and is really no more than a more balanced Blissey...

...and from this, arguing that the whole point of UU is to get away from the OU metagame and not use OU's etc etc etc...

But I disagree with that reasoning anyway.

What I'm not really understanding is whether or not Clefable over-centralizes the game as people see it.

FURTHER EDIT: ...although it says on the front page that usage is not really an official factor for deciding the difference between BL and UU, usage does correlate a little with "power". Still, it's something to consider. If the usage is irrelevent, feel free to ignore it.
EDIT:
January Usage Statistics: (# 57 to #98, Clefable is #70, and the range is admittedly arbitrary)
Mismagius (7739469 points)
Umbreon (7720742 points)
Tangrowth (7551462 points)
Empoleon (7374177 points)
Ambipom (7338969 points)
Raikou (7060133 points)
Froslass (7006511 points)
Slowbro (6707001 points)
Shuckle (6453623 points)
Ludicolo (6083669 points)
Cradily (5958714 points)
Porygon2 (5833554 points)
Charizard (5372656 points)
Clefable (4853363 points)
Gardevoir (4490329 points)
Hitmontop (4482728 points)
Arcanine (4463694 points)
Sceptile (4427245 points)
Smeargle (4213893 points)
Medicham (4207002 points)
Flygon (4051547 points)
Azumarill (4002922 points)
Feraligatr (3960679 points)
Steelix (3944080 points)
Walrein (3882899 points)
Claydol (3820746 points)
Mesprit (3736917 points)
Houndoom (3686302 points)
Kabutops (3668894 points)
Drapion (3486223 points)
Blastoise (3401180 points)
Floatzel (3308989 points)
Miltank (3240121 points)
Uxie (3192256 points)
Espeon (3120987 points)
Absol (3098297 points)
Hariyama (3097247 points)
Typhlosion (3067476 points)
Venusaur (2979521 points)
Toxicroak (2964179 points)
Regice (2935395 points)
Rampardos (2845646 points)

It is interesting that in general Clefable saw more ladder usage than Regice, Sceptile, and that it is between Charizard of OU and Gardevoir of BL in usage, with a jump in either direction.
 
I should postwhore more.
Or less, I forget.

Lee said it well, Clefable has to dodge Fight all day in UU, she doesn't centralize anything that isn't already in place.
 
Darkflagrance said:
It is interesting that in general Clefable saw more ladder usage than Regice, Sceptile, and that it is between Charizard of OU and Gardevoir of BL in usage, with a jump in either direction.
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i feel this argument is invalid when shuckle is a fair amount further up the ladder, and has never truly been discussed for a move up, as he simply isnt too powerful.

also, with hitmontop, a pretty sure UU being higher up then azumarill, a dead on BL, i dont think we should npay that list too much attention.
 
The frequency of Pokemon used in OU ladder matches (even below #50) does not have anything to do with the frequency of Pokemon used in UU. I just wanted to say that.
 
Slickee said:
The same could be said about things like Altaria though. It's got DDance, Specs Draco Meteor, and bulky sets, all of which can be pulled off with effectively. Like Clefable, a wrong switch in might cost you, but once you get a beat on what kind it is each set is still stoppable.
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Altaria also has far more weaknesses then Fable, and doesn't get the amazing Magic Guard. Any day of the week, Fable is tougher to take down.
 
To be fair, Altaria only has two more weaknesses, but a whopping 5 more resistances a superior immunity. He also has Natural Cure, which does have the occasional advantage over Magic Guard.

I don't think opinions are going to be swayed on the Clefable matter because she has such forgetable offensive stats and even her defences are meh. However, there's always the chance that Clefable will be moved up to OU if her usage carries on increasing.

Perhaps you could show some battle-logs or examples of where Clefable has proven to be overpowering because I really can't see it. I don't mean that in a negative way...I mean, it's just so passive that I don't understand why it should go whilst monsters like Hitmonlee, Pinsir and Scyther are uncontested.
 
Amen, I use a Scyther now in OU battles... yeah thats right OU Battles and I'll tell ya that thing surprises so much, Choice Scarf outdoes most Gengar (of course not the choice scarfed version) and OHKO's with pursuit if it switches out or not, U-Turn for a quick escape, Brick Break pretty obvious and Aerial ace, catches so much by surprise.

Pinsir is also a pokemon deserving a possible move to BL, true it may be just under Heracross however it's defense stat is higher, Mold Breaker is a great ability to have and with a choice scarf it does basically Heracross's job without STAB Close Combat but with Levitate hitting EQ, also swaps into physical pokemon slightly easier
 
Waltaz said:
Amen, I use a Scyther now in OU battles... yeah thats right OU Battles and I'll tell ya that thing surprises so much, Choice Scarf outdoes most Gengar (of course not the choice scarfed version) and OHKO's with pursuit if it switches out or not, U-Turn for a quick escape, Brick Break pretty obvious and Aerial ace, catches so much by surprise.

Pinsir is also a pokemon deserving a possible move to BL, true it may be just under Heracross however it's defense stat is higher, Mold Breaker is a great ability to have and with a choice scarf it does basically Heracross's job without STAB Close Combat but with Levitate hitting EQ, also swaps into physical pokemon slightly easier
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I've swept dozens of OU/standard teams with reversal scyther

as for pinser, if its replaced to standar, people would still use hera for STAB close combat and pursuit

heracross has higher S.DEF and higher HP IIRC

EDIT: with mold breaker the only extra pokemon you will hit in OU are:

cresselia/azelf/weezing/gengar

of witch weezing and gengar only super effective

and cresselia and azelf are super effective to BUG
 
Lee said:
I mean, it's just so passive that I don't understand why it should go whilst monsters like Hitmonlee, Pinsir and Scyther are uncontested.
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All 3 of those have been contested; only Pinsir was deemed too powerful. It is Fable's turn to be judged.
 
With so many Fighting-types going around in UU, Clefable really isn't enough of a threat to be moved up to BL.
 
Dragontamer said:
Question: Any particular reason why Venasaur is BL? I'd think that he is UU, but in all honesty I never used the guy.
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I never really understood it either, especially considering the controversy Jumpluff's BL status caused recently. It was understandably BL back in ADV, but the UU metagame has strengthened greatly since then, whilst Venusaur has gained little besides decent special STAB. Still rather bad coverage though. It is however very well balanced, with good defenses, decent enough speed, 100 base Special Attack and a decent enough attack to surprise the odd opponent. Nevertheless, it seems to be outclassed in any particular role even in UU, but the versatility and lack of weak points might be the reason it is considered too much for UU.

I would have brought it up earlier, but I too have never tried him so I've been keeping my mouth shut.
 
Deck Knight said:
The other pokemon I'm taking issue with in BL is Venusaur. One very important thing happened to Venusaur (and Vileplume/Victreebel, one could argue) to make it UU: Sludge Bomb is now special. What this means is that, rather than being able to break CM Grumpig Subs and force it out [or keep it from coming in in the first place], Venusaur is no longer an unsafe switchin for it. Combine this with the fact it will still do about the same to Vileplume, and I think Venusaur just got hurt, despite the fact SB now runs off its higher attacking stat. Seed Bomb, Energy Ball, and Grass Knot are good additions, but they don't address much of anything in UU they couldn't before, and it doesn't get Poison Jab either. The only thing special sludge bomb helped Venusaur defeat better than before is Tangela, which already lost to Venusaur unless it has the sun out and hadnt sleeped anything yet.

I'm struggling to see how the extra base speed and marginally better defenses puts Venusaur above Vileplume. Victreebel and Vileplume can both abuse the sun better, Shiftry can pull off Subseed and has a better second STAB (also can abuse Sun). Is Subseeding really powerful enough to make up for Vileplume's weakened physical STAB power?

After all, most of the things you'll see switching into it are Psychic special walls like Hypno and Grumpig, Altaria, or half-poison Sunnybeamers like aforementioned Vileplume and Victreebel. Occiaisionally it might also see Poison-Bugs like Venomoth and Ariados, or fire types like Rapidash and Nintetales.
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From waaaay back in this very thread ... couldn't see any response to it, but then I didn't trawl through it all.
 
Dragontamer said:
Question: Any particular reason why Venasaur is BL? I'd think that he is UU, but in all honesty I never used the guy.
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Decently fast, bulky, leech seed, sleep powder, much stronger STAB Sludge Bomb.....

When you pack 80/83/100 defenses and with STAB on a coverage move, subseed becomes a whole lot more dangerous. Its bulky enough that it can completely forgoe Substitute if it wants unlike Jump who needs it. Venusaur is something which forces switches easier than Jump. Thing with leech seed stalling is you will always win if you get the first move in. More so if you can't even OHKO your opponent alot of the time and sometimes 2HKO even.

It has options outside of that, leech seed + amnesia/curse and toxic immunity is something Cradily can only wish for. It can be offensive with Swords Dance or Growth, can phaze with Roar etc. Vileplume shares similar bulk but less and requires sun if it doesn't want its 50 base speed taking advantage of. Victreebel doesn't even get leech seed and why would you use it when it screams offense.

Venusaur is just versatile and well rounded with great stats with no blatant weakness, wheras the other two plants still have their weak points. Even if you do try to wall Venusaur it can and will wear you down.
 
I'm thinking about Zangoose.

1) Zangoose's base Attack: 115. Pinsir's base Attack: 125.
2) Zangoose's base Speed: 90. Pinsir's base Speed: 85.
3) Zangoose's defenses: 73/60/60. Pinsir's: 65/100/70.
4) Zangoose's ability: Immunity. Pinsir's: Mold Breaker or Hyper Cutter.
5) Zangoose has 1 weakness and 1 resistance. Pinsir has 3 weaknesses and 3 resistances.
6) Zangoose's physical movepool: Return (STAB), Close Combat, Shadow Claw, Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Thunderpunch. Pinsir's: X-Scissor (STAB), Close Combat, Earthquake, Stone Edge.
7) Both learn Swords Dance.

Yet Pinsir is UU and Zangoose is BL. How come?
 
At a push I'd say its possibly because Shadow Claw gives it the Fighting + Ghost combo which is a little better in terms of coverage ... although to be honest its a minor distinction.

Wasn't it suggested that Pinsir be moved up anyways?
 
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