Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[HunterNeverHere9]

Honestly I agree. mlatias can be a big threat if it gets the chance to set up

+2 8 SpA Latias-Mega Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 195-231 (49.4 - 58.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is after only TWO calm minds. However, sub cm latias is realistically the only set you wanna run since mist ball lowers spatk and not spdef, meaning you lack firepower(also base 140 spatk while still quite strong doesn't have any wall breaking stuff). imo suffers abit from 4mss(you want stored power to hit hard, sub to turn passive mons into fodder, cm since 3 calm minds guarantees a roll to ohko generic ferro, recovery to complement sub, aura sphere for coverage and maybe draco) overall kinda decent but if you want stored power you can just put this guy on your team and use or /

 

[Patar136]

Agree that Mega Latias has to be used differently than Mega Latios. However, you can still run Psyshock to good effect as that can still hit hard after a Calm Mind Boost. Plus your extra bulk means you can switch in safer against various electric, psychic, fire attacks and so on.

I think that you can do pretty well with calm mind, roost, psyshock and aura sphere. And you can throw on Thunder Wave to annoy some of the things you can't beat outright.

 

[Lightniong]

Honestly I agree. mlatias can be a big threat if it gets the chance to set up

+2 8 SpA Latias-Mega Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 195-231 (49.4 - 58.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is after only TWO calm minds. However, sub cm latias is realistically the only set you wanna run since mist ball lowers spatk and not spdef, meaning you lack firepower(also base 140 spatk while still quite strong doesn't have any wall breaking stuff). imo suffers abit from 4mss(you want stored power to hit hard, sub to turn passive mons into fodder, cm since 3 calm minds guarantees a roll to ohko generic ferro, recovery to complement sub, aura sphere for coverage and maybe draco) overall kinda decent but if you want stored power you can just put this guy on your team and use or /

Most MLatias run Psyshock anyway, so you can blast through Glowking, and also helps with Toxapex, Volcarona, and other CM sweepers. Also, I’d honestly prefer Recover over sub, since it gives you recovery, which can be devastating on a Stored Power set, especially with MLatias‘s great bulk, plus most passive mons (Gliscor, Garganacl, Etc.) can just be killed by coverage or with enough CM boosts. Overall, MLatias is honestly an underutilized Pokémon.

 

[Patar136]

I think one of the cons of both Mega Latias, and Mega Latios, is neither can tera out of a bad situation. They can't Tera Steel to avoid getting Moonblasted or Draco Meteor'd or Outraged. They can't Tera Psychic to make themselves even stronger nor can they either heal with leftovers or avoid Stealth Rock with Heavy Duty Boots. Being less weak to Knock Off is nice, but Knock Off is still everywhere and Weavile can just use Triple Axel or Icicle Crash anyway. But the Lati Twins are certainly not bad Pokemon as seen so far. I think the key to their success is the right team support.

Great Tusk seems like a good partner, as it can handle Tyranitar pretty nicely and even Darkrai to an extent. It also appreciates the Lati twins being able to brute force their way past some of the things that annoy Great Tusk like Gliscor, Charizard, Alomomola and Urshifu. While Great Tusk handles Tyranitar, Iron Threads, Clodsire, Ting Lu and others. To anchor this structure maybe you throw on some great answers to fairy types such as Iron Crown, Volcarona, Corviknight and potentially Ferrothorn.

I think that the Lati Twins are going to get more use when we experiment with them more.

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

Most MLatias run Psyshock anyway, so you can blast through Glowking, and also helps with Toxapex, Volcarona, and other CM sweepers. Also, I’d honestly prefer Recover over sub, since it gives you recovery, which can be devastating on a Stored Power set, especially with MLatias‘s great bulk, plus most passive mons (Gliscor, Garganacl, Etc.) can just be killed by coverage or with enough CM boosts. Overall, MLatias is honestly an underutilized Pokémon.

Psyshock is mainly for blissey and clod; both are pretty uncommon and imo if you want a bulky breaker lati twin most of the time is better. Also iron crown is better of a stored power sweeper and glowking could just use chilly and regen stall you. it's underused due to how it's 2 main roles get taken by and . Overall kinda meh but maybe wouldve had use if didn't exist

Also why isn't used enough. +2 seed unburden is fucking terrifying.

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 404-476 (114.7 - 135.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Max def Ferro dies and you pretty much out speed everything. was banned for it so why isn't ranked too high?

 

[Sami]

Also why isn't used enough. +2 seed unburden is fucking terrifying

Kid named

 

[Patar136]

Hawlucha with Stone Edge: Do I look like a gimmick?

Zapdos: What?!?

Hawlucha: *obliterates Zapdos*

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

Hawlucha with Stone Edge: Do I look like a gimmick?

Zapdos: What?!?

Hawlucha: *obliterates Zapdos*

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 306-360 (79.8 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

At best you crit and ohko but this is against defensive which can then volt switch out or..

0 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hawlucha: 416-492 (140 - 165.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I'm using generic which means that both volt switch AND hurricane ohko/roll to ohko. Honestly S0A0M0I0's point is kinda valid but imo most of the time your not 6-0'ing with since it's frail like fuck(unless you run screens but it's kinda meh) . Srsly though why was banned?

 

[Sami]

Srsly though why was banned?

Sneasler is just Hawlucha on steroids. It's stronger, faster and can abuse Tera much better with Tera Flying Acrobatics alongside Gunk Shot and Close Combat, meaning nothing barring Aegislash (and Gholdengo at the time I guess) could resist it. There was also Dire Claw being a ridiculous move, letting Sneasler win matchups it really shouldn't have with the sleep or paralysis chances. It was useful with Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele and even Rillaboom which made it pretty easy to fit onto HO teams, and there were even more niche sets like Tera Blast Ground to bait in would-be switches like Toxapex, or Big Nugget Fling to bait in those two Ghost-types. I guess Dondozo and Skeledirge and maybe Clodsire could beat Sneasler one on one, but both Tapu Koko and Lele beat those two as well, especially since the former stopped Dondozo from using Rest with Electric Surge, making Sneasler really hard to handle outside of hard stall, since the latter stopped priority with Psychic Surge so offensive teams wouldn't work very well, and even then, Dire Claw could still let it win regardless against hard stall if it got lucky.

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

Oh damn ty but could still run choices sets like gen9ou right? Or was there some check/counter that I missed(that I prob did)? Mainly poison touch combined with stabs(gunk shot, dire claw, cc) and coverage alongside u turn AND it's decent speed makes it good right?

 

[Sami]

Oh damn ty but could still run choices sets like gen9ou right? Or was there some check/counter that I missed(that I prob did)? Mainly poison touch combined with stabs(gunk shot, dire claw, cc) and coverage alongside u turn AND it's decent speed makes it good right?

Protective Pads or Heavy-Duty Boots sets were used but why would you use those over Unburden sets? Besides, I'm sure these sets are partially outclassed by Meowscarada since its faster and has arguably better utility in Knock Off and Flower Trick's crits, as opposed to just poison chances. Even other fast Fighting-types like Choice Scarf Urshifu-R do those sets better tbh.

 

[R8]

boots and pads pivot were experimented with a bit, however unburden sets were really super dumb, it hits really hard and the combination of its stabs + tera flying acrobatics was pretty much unresisted. Aegislash even rose in OU during the last month Sneasler was legal and honestly even that was kind of a fake check because it cannot OHKO sneasler while it can be threatened on the following turn due to Stance Change neutering its bulk, leading at best to a king shield 50/50

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

Damn I didn't know abt the boots and pads sets but then ? Is it ranked low due to the many checks like :slowking-galarian: and ?

 

[Lightniong]

Damn I didn't know abt the boots and pads sets but then ? Is it ranked low due to the many checks like :slowking-galarian: and ?

It’s ranked low cause you can really only run it on offense, and even then that offense has to have either Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, or Rilaboom. You can’t just splash it on teams like all of the Pokémon above it, which is why I don’t think it can be ranked higher than B. Even with psychic terrain, Hawlucha is not grounded, therefore it is still weak to priority from pokemon like Raging Bolt, Dragonite, and Mega Lopunny. Also, Raging Bolt counters it completely, which is kind of a problem as it’s pretty common.

 

[CappyThePulpy]

It’s ranked low cause you can really only run it on offense, and even then that offense has to have either Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, or Rilaboom. You can’t just splash it on teams like all of the Pokémon above it, which is why I don’t think it can be ranked higher than B. Even with psychic terrain, Hawlucha is not grounded, therefore it is still weak to priority from pokemon like Raging Bolt, Dragonite, and Mega Lopunny. Also, Raging Bolt counters it completely, which is kind of a problem as it’s pretty common.

I would only run hawlucha in the current meta with a sub set, which should give it an advantage in the raging bolt matchup, but I cant remember seeing this 1v1 play out so this is just theorycrafting

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

Damn tysm but also suffers abit from 4mss right? It wants stone edge to provide even a smidgen of offensive pressure against , throat chop for / , taunt to remove the threat of , sub for which imo is not too common but the fact that isn't grounded means that still threatens it under psychic terrain AND still can't sweep is quite concerning

 

[Medasus]

Damn tysm but also suffers abit from 4mss right? It wants stone edge to provide even a smidgen of offensive pressure against , throat chop for / , taunt to remove the threat of , sub for which imo is not too common but the fact that isn't grounded means that still threatens it under psychic terrain AND still can't sweep is quite concerning

its like never running stone edge or throat chop imo, sub and taunt are both valid, but id say sub is its best option rn

 

[boppy]

Damn tysm but also suffers abit from 4mss right? It wants stone edge to provide even a smidgen of offensive pressure against , throat chop for / , taunt to remove the threat of , sub for which imo is not too common but the fact that isn't grounded means that still threatens it under psychic terrain AND still can't sweep is quite concerning

okay, about time i hop in here
piggybacking and adding more info on Medasus' comment
ive used hawlucha a lot, and i can say its a very decent option on HO structures, and is usually a top pick for a sweeper on offense teams with koko and rillaboom especially

the set i'm assuming we're talking about is sd/cc/acrobatics/sub
swords dance with max invest and an adamant nature(which it can afford to run since the speed boost from unburden is pretty much outmatched) still hits really, really hard, and in tandem with Tera Flying it can certainly sweep through teams that aren't prepared
substitute alongside its very fortunate flying typing can allow it to setup on common OU mons like Alomomola, Gliscor and Landorus-Therian which otherwise would click Toxic and stall it forever
it can 1v1 toxapex with sub too
its high BP stabs alone, cc and acrobatics, are very hard to resist, i dont think it has 4mss at all due to the only resists to both moves are koko, zapdos and aegislash

however, if you apply enough pressure it can be difficult for hawlucha to get swords dances and substitutes off(being proactive about clicking earthquake, etc)
it's also checked by raging bolt(it can stomach +2 cc iirc) and tapu koko(iron crown is roll to OKHO with +2 cc iirc) and walled by zapdos, but you can run Tera Electric(a nice option on grassy terrain too!) to power through those checks

going more in depth about your comment
stone edge is pretty much not a good option on hawlucha, since it only hits zapdos and you'd have to drop a stab move for it(as sd and sub are very, very useful)
mlatios/mlatias arent issues for hawlucha in general, as +2 acrobatics should OHKO(of course, in a 1v1 scenario you'd have to tera to avoid their psychic move/psychic noise w sub)
ferro gets smacked by +2 cc and it cant break sub unless gyro ball which does 47 max
lopunny gets outsped and OHKOd, fake out can be annoying, but with substitute it ignores that and you're +1 defense so its not chunking you at all

in general, super nice mon and can definitely sweep given the right positioning and turns to set up, but keep in mind it has checks that make it difficult
basically baby sneasler

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

okay, about time i hop in here
piggybacking and adding more info on Medasus' comment
ive used hawlucha a lot, and i can say its a very decent option on HO structures, and is usually a top pick for a sweeper on offense teams with koko and rillaboom especially

the set i'm assuming we're talking about is sd/cc/acrobatics/sub
swords dance with max invest and an adamant nature(which it can afford to run since the speed boost from unburden is pretty much outmatched) still hits really, really hard, and in tandem with Tera Flying it can certainly sweep through teams that aren't prepared
substitute alongside its very fortunate flying typing can allow it to setup on common OU mons like Alomomola, Gliscor and Landorus-Therian which otherwise would click Toxic and stall it forever
it can 1v1 toxapex with sub too
its high BP stabs alone, cc and acrobatics, are very hard to resist, i dont think it has 4mss at all due to the only resists to both moves are koko, zapdos and aegislash

however, if you apply enough pressure it can be difficult for hawlucha to get swords dances and substitutes off(being proactive about clicking earthquake, etc)
it's also checked by raging bolt(it can stomach +2 cc iirc) and tapu koko(iron crown is roll to OKHO with +2 cc iirc) and walled by zapdos, but you can run Tera Electric(a nice option on grassy terrain too!) to power through those checks

going more in depth about your comment
stone edge is pretty much not a good option on hawlucha, since it only hits zapdos and you'd have to drop a stab move for it(as sd and sub are very, very useful)
mlatios/mlatias arent issues for hawlucha in general, as +2 acrobatics should OHKO(of course, in a 1v1 scenario you'd have to tera to avoid their psychic move/psychic noise w sub)
ferro gets smacked by +2 cc and it cant break sub unless gyro ball which does 47 max
lopunny gets outsped and OHKOd, fake out can be annoying, but with substitute it ignores that and you're +1 defense so its not chunking you at all

in general, super nice mon and can definitely sweep given the right positioning and turns to set up, but keep in mind it has checks that make it difficult
basically baby sneasler

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Close Combat vs. 76 HP / 48 Def Raging Bolt: 348-411 (84.8 - 100.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Unless I calced wrongly, this is an ohko even without sr. BUT it's incredibly difficult to get in to start the sweep and realistically can only use for terrain since it doesn't get immunity

 

[IRONM0NK3Y808]

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Close Combat vs. 76 HP / 48 Def Raging Bolt: 348-411 (84.8 - 100.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Unless I calced wrongly, this is an ohko even without sr. BUT it's incredibly difficult to get in to start the sweep and realistically can only use for terrain since it doesn't get immunity

Not only is that significantly more bulky than I would recommend running Raging Bolt, a guaranteed OHKO after rocks is completely fine. It isn't really that difficult to get lucha in either, you just bring it in at any point throughout the entire game where your terrain is up and it's immediately ready to begin the potential sweep. I'm not sure why you're acting like being forced into pairing it with Koko is a bad thing either, Koko is one of the best mons in the current meta and generally electric terrain teams are significantly better than psychic terrain teams as of right now. Not to mention that it's completely reasonable to pair it with Rillaboom with grassy seed as well.

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

Not only is that significantly more bulky than I would recommend running Raging Bolt, a guaranteed OHKO after rocks is completely fine. It isn't really that difficult to get lucha in either, you just bring it in at any point throughout the entire game where your terrain is up and it's immediately ready to begin the potential sweep. I'm not sure why you're acting like being forced into pairing it with Koko is a bad thing either, Koko is one of the best mons in the current meta and generally electric terrain teams are significantly better than psychic terrain teams as of right now. Not to mention that it's completely reasonable to pair it with Rillaboom with grassy seed as well.

As a point, Lightniong mentioned how can only be realistically used on ho. is only for speed control/nuke with specs and even then, isn't grounded. Meaning no immunity to priority. Also the set I used is bulkier than even z-draco+calm mind sets? I didn't know that. Also who the actual fuck runs as a SUPPORT. Literally the only reason you use imo is just to hit hard with band

 

[Medasus]

As a point, Lightniong mentioned how can only be realistically used on ho. is only for speed control/nuke with specs and even then, isn't grounded. Meaning no immunity to priority. Also the set I used is bulkier than even z-draco+calm mind sets? I didn't know that. Also who the actual fuck runs as a SUPPORT. Literally the only reason you use imo is just to hit hard with band

A few things to this, lucha is fine on psyspam which, while a niche archetype, is still usable. The lack of imunity to prio is annoying, but tclap from bolt can be outplayed with sub and apart from that not much other prio threatens it without being set up (even espeed dnite loses 1v1 to +2 tera flying lucha). Also rilla-lucha cores are fine rn imo, they can function well.

 

[boppy]

As a point, Lightniong mentioned how can only be realistically used on ho. is only for speed control/nuke with specs and even then, isn't grounded. Meaning no immunity to priority. Also the set I used is bulkier than even z-draco+calm mind sets? I didn't know that. Also who the actual fuck runs as a SUPPORT. Literally the only reason you use imo is just to hit hard with band

There’s literally a sample made by hidin of a Rillaboom offense with Hawlucha on it. LOL, Rillaboom as a grassy terrain activator and cleaner is just fine, its not like Rilla will be consistently breaking anyway seeing how many resists it has in the tier
rillaboom HOs can really make use of the passive healing, hawlucha, gouging, bolt, crown, etc can be great choices for a rilla HO
psyspam is just niche and i wouldnt reccomend running it, but keep in mind it doesnt really care about priority immunity except vs bolt, where you’ve showcased it wins the 1v1
thats the sample bolt set, and its just fine
(also, i was correct about bolt stomaching a +2 cc. just not after rocks.)

its kinda difficult to for me to format two quotes since im on mobile but on your earlier comment
hawlucha can find opportunities to set up against lando, gliscor, alo, ferro, alongside 1v1 pex and forcing switches on mlop and shifu
its utility with sub makes it easier to set up with than it seems

 

[Patar136]

How is Urshifu-Rapid Strike doing anyways? Because all I know is how it can be slotted in on rain, with either scarf or the punching glove that allows you to avoid rocky helmet/ferrothorn. Cause it seems like it’s a lot less common. My guess is that Raging Bolt is awful for it to face as it just dies to Thunder Clap and has to play mind games around it.

 

[IRONM0NK3Y808]

How is Urshifu-Rapid Strike doing anyways? Because all I know is how it can be slotted in on rain, with either scarf or the punching glove that allows you to avoid rocky helmet/ferrothorn. Cause it seems like it’s a lot less common. My guess is that Raging Bolt is awful for it to face as it just dies to Thunder Clap and has to play mind games around it.

Urshifu on rain is a noob trap, there are significantly better rain abusers such as Barraskewda or Mega Swampert, and you generally don't want to be having more than 2 water type rain abusers on a team. My opinion on urshifu differs from most people since I actually think it's pretty terrible and has been for quite a while. While yes it's fast with a scarf and has solid damage, it still somehow manages to be one of the easiest mons in the entire metagame to wall. I think it does deserve a lot more merit as of late due to it being one of the only viable speed control options in the tier, but it still struggles to get kills even against offensive mons such as darkrai or mega lopunny with surging strikes. It's mostly going to just be forcing switches and pivoting around with u turn which does have inherent value in itself but it's very rare that it's actually going to be claiming more than a single kill in a game. I don't think it's that bad in a vacuum but in the meta that we have going on right now with things such as raging bolt, rillaboom, waterpon and tealpon as well as defensive checks such as alomomola or toxapex and combined with the fact that every single half decent team WILL have a consistent check to it just due to how important water resists are, I find that it struggles to break through its walls at all and usually just amounts to dead weight. It doesn't have the utility of other scarfers such as kartana, landorus or tapu fini with defog, trick with darkrai or iron valiant, or even knock off so it really struggles to force progress. Most teams I've used it on haven't had much success just because it feels like there isn't really a winning state for it where it's checks are chipped down compared to something like darkrai since all of the bulky waters in the tier have regenerator. It's by no means a bad mon and I don't see it falling off any time soon but I do think that it's severely overrated since it just thuds into any decent defensive core and is essentially just watered down to a u turn merchant.

I'm not gonna talk about SD though since I haven't actually used it myself