Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 ( NEW SURVEY UP, POST 20,700 )

[Cuddly]

Species Clause just takes some severe victims like Johtoking due to being actually-mutually-exclusive from their counterparts, some of whom they might even play well with. It's one reason I'm glad they started going with split/extended Evolutions.

Another mon I think is a Victim of this is Gapdos. When stuff like Zama, Kingambit, and Great Tusk rule the Meta, this thing's prospects as a Wallbreaker are absolutely terrifying with Knock Off to force Progress while being Rock-neutral ungrounded for Item choice. That said conflicting with Zapdos means a massive opportunity cost for a longer-lived Ground Immunity and Physical Punishment with Static. Not to say it's a Meta Definer but I do think needing to give up Kanto Zapdos knocked it from a B to a C mon in a meta like this (where Zapdos struggles with Gliscor but still does well enough) and flat out non-consideration in Gliscor-less Metas.

That's a topic I'd kind of like to pose as food for thought: What are some Pokemon (Variants or simply role similarity) that seem good but REALLY depend on another choice not being available/locked out by their selection?

Gapdos I get. Its a physical attacker that bombards you with high BP moves, while Zapdos can be either special attacker or as a defensive support option. But besides the Galarian birds and Deoxys, most form changes are not that radically different enough to warrent changing species clause (and technically Calyex if it was actually possible in game to have both forms). Like what exactly would you even do with 2 Slowkings that are radically different?

Cornerstone. The prevalence of Wellspring makes most people ignore Cornerstone, but in this case Cornerstone is actually pretty good.

D-Speed is somehow better at PP stalling than D-defense because of the speed tier. Although the HP stat is low, with proper HP investment, the other 90/90 defensive stats aren't that low.

Dragonite's E-speed makes nobody try Harcanine, even though Harcanine can be pretty decent with E-speed and high base power wallbreaking STABs.

Blissey has become better than Chansey since HDB was introduced in gen 8.

Iron Treads invalidates Excadrill because it is a largely better mon of the same typing.

Darkrai's existence invalidates a number of potential special attackers, most notably the Lati twins and Goltres. Greninja is also maybe possible, but it has been nerfed hard and would also probably do better without Wellspring's water immunity.

Cornerstone too, at least in singles. I mean you could run one form as hazard setter, but there you have alternatives like Meowscarada or any several dozen spike setters in the game.

 

[Shadow Crystal]

Gapdos I get. Its a physical attacker that bombards you with high BP moves, while Zapdos can be either special attacker or as a defensive support option. But besides the Galarian birds and Deoxys, most form changes are not that radically different enough to warrent changing species clause (and technically Calyex if it was actually possible in game to have both forms). Like what exactly would you even do with 2 Slowkings that are radically different?

I mean that's not a valid argument lol... Why does species clause affect regional forms in the first place when they could be tiered seperately and they are 99% of the time tiered seperately and play differently.. Garticuno plays very differently from articuno goltres plays very differently from moltres and so on..

Them being viable in ou or not doesn't matter because this is plainly an unnecessary interaction.. Why can't I have a mega flamigo and zapdos in the same tean together? It makes no sense and yes they do play differently.. The slow quad ironically plays most similar..

I don't see why this species clause exist it is pretty unnecessary I feel..

 

[658Greninja]

I mean that's not a valid argument lol... Why does species clause affect regional forms in the first place when they could be tiered seperately and they are 99% of the time tiered seperately and play differently.. Garticuno plays very differently from articuno goltres plays very differently from moltres and so on..

Them being viable in ou or not doesn't matter because this is plainly an unnecessary interaction.. Why can't I have a mega flamigo and zapdos in the same tean together? It makes no sense and yes they do play differently.. The slow quad ironically plays most similar..

I don't see why this species clause exist it is pretty unnecessary I feel..

My opponent when I load up a team with two Kingambits, two Zamazentas, and two Ogerpons.

 

[Bunger Royale]

My opponent when I load up a team with two Kingambits, two Zamazentas, and two Ogerpons.
View attachment 647923

I'm pretty sure they're just saying that regional forms should be exempt from Species clause. Not that species clause shouldn't exist.

Which makes sense. Most regional forms are basically new Pokemon.

But, I understand why smogon doesn't want to open up the endless arguments on what alternative forms should and shouldn't be effected by species clause.

 

[AquiIo]

Another mon I think is a Victim of this is Gapdos. When stuff like Zama, Kingambit, and Great Tusk rule the Meta, this thing's prospects as a Wallbreaker are absolutely terrifying with Knock Off to force Progress while being Rock-neutral ungrounded for Item choice. That said conflicting with Zapdos means a massive opportunity cost for a longer-lived Ground Immunity and Physical Punishment with Static. Not to say it's a Meta Definer but I do think needing to give up Kanto Zapdos knocked it from a B to a C mon in a meta like this (where Zapdos struggles with Gliscor but still does well enough) and flat out non-consideration in Gliscor-less Metas.

As a fellow Gapdos enjoyer, I must say that I disagree with your point here. Species Clause isn't the issue for two reasons here: 1, Zapdos and Gapdos fill very different roles and are often placed on different teamstyles, and by virtue of shared weaknesses they wouldn't often be placed on the same team anyway. 2, Zapdos-K doesn't see as much usage anymore, meaning it's not like a requirement on teams that excludes the galarian form. It's certainly not an objectively better mon.

If anything, Zapdos-K is one of the biggest checks to its Galarian variant, and while moltres can still pose problems, I think the dwindling Zapdos population in OU frees up Gapdos to be a lot more effective.

 

[Shadow Crystal]

My opponent when I load up a team with two Kingambits, two Zamazentas, and two Ogerpons.
View attachment 647923

I thought I clearly specified regional forms and not same mons.

 

[arnimacarni]

My opponent when I load up a team with two Kingambits, two Zamazentas, and two Ogerpons.
View attachment 647923

I really respect you and the work you do here, but this was too strawman-ish (idk if that's the name of the fallacy idk). you KNOW that's not they're referring to, but everytime this topic gets brought up it gets derailed by memes.

I mean that's not a valid argument lol... Why does species clause affect regional forms in the first place when they could be tiered seperately and they are 99% of the time tiered seperately and play differently.. Garticuno plays very differently from articuno goltres plays very differently from moltres and so on..

Them being viable in ou or not doesn't matter because this is plainly an unnecessary interaction.. Why can't I have a mega flamigo and zapdos in the same tean together? It makes no sense and yes they do play differently.. The slow quad ironically plays most similar..

I don't see why this species clause exist it is pretty unnecessary I feel..

I'm quoting you again just so you know that you're not crazy and that some of us are behind this idea as well.

I'm going to quote myself from some months ago with the proposal I did

Sorry if this has been dealt with but I'm at work and can only skim through the posts, but regarding the Species Clause discussion, how would you feel about this wording?

Multiple forms of the same Pokémon with a certain Dex Number can be used, as long as these forms are not interchangeable, have different typing, different abilities and/or different stat spreads, and can be obtained in-game at the same time.

Relevant mons that would not be allowed to be run at the same time:
-In-battle change forms (such as Castform, Meloetta, Wishiwashi, Terapagos, Palafin, Mega-evos, Dynamax...)
-Pikachu
-Unown
-Spinda
-Deoxys
-Gastrodon
-Rotom
-Dialga, Palkia and Giratina
-Shaymin
-Arceus
-Deerling and Sawsbuck
-Tornadus, Thundurus, Landorus and Enamorus
-Keldeo
-Genesect
-Vivillon
-Flabebe, Floette and Florges
-Zygarde
-Hoopa
-Oricorio
-Necrozma
-Magearna
-Toxtricity
-Sinistea, Polteageist, Poltchageist and Sinistcha
-Alcremie
-Zarude
-Calyrex
-Maushold
-Dudunsparce

Would allow:
-All regional forms
-Wormadam
-Basculin
-Pumpkaboo and Gourgeist
-Lycanroc
-Urshifu
-Squawkabilly
-Ursaluna
-Gimmighoul
-Ogerpon

Just throwing my two cents out there.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I mean that's not a valid argument lol... Why does species clause affect regional forms in the first place when they could be tiered seperately and they are 99% of the time tiered seperately and play differently.. Garticuno plays very differently from articuno goltres plays very differently from moltres and so on..

Them being viable in ou or not doesn't matter because this is plainly an unnecessary interaction.. Why can't I have a mega flamigo and zapdos in the same tean together? It makes no sense and yes they do play differently.. The slow quad ironically plays most similar..

I don't see why this species clause exist it is pretty unnecessary I feel..

here, let me reach into the future with my clairvoyant powers and tell you how this would go:

• someone makes a policy review thread suggesting species clause should not apply to regional forms
• three to five people, including at least one council member and at least one member of tiering administration, immediately dunk on them for making such an arbitrary suggestion
• someone brings up other form differences that are significant enough to be tiered differently, such as the ogerforms, and how this wouldn't work on any self-consistent level
• the thread devolves into an argument over whether the stupid hat pikachus count as "regional forms", which somehow lasts for literal months
• the thread is ultimately buried under a mound of ten million more policy-review threads complaining about bans or tera

 

[arnimacarni]

here, let me reach into the future with my clairvoyant powers and tell you how this would go:

• someone makes a policy review thread suggesting species clause should not apply to regional forms
• three to five people, including at least one council member and at least one member of tiering administration, immediately dunk on them for making such an arbitrary suggestion
• someone brings up other form differences that are significant enough to be tiered differently, such as the ogerforms, and how this wouldn't work on any self-consistent level
• the thread devolves into an argument over whether the stupid hat pikachus count as "regional forms", which somehow lasts for literal months
• the thread is ultimately buried under a mound of ten million more policy-review threads complaining about bans or tera

i know u are one hundred percent right and that nobody is going to be swayed. i also dunk on vgc like three times a day and say to my gf "imagine having to deal with flutter mane and urshifu-rs on a daily basis" while we have dinner, but man they are fucking consistent and coherent there. we have built something around the official product and are therefore constantly lacking coherence. i dont understand why trying to push for a more universal and adaptable definition of things is a bad thing

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

i know u are one hundred percent right and that nobody is going to be swayed. i also dunk on vgc like three times a day and say to my gf "imagine having to deal with flutter mane and urshifu-rs on a daily basis" while we have dinner, but man they are fucking consistent and coherent there. we have built something around the official product and are therefore constantly lacking coherence. i dont understand why trying to push for a more universal and adaptable definition of things is a bad thing

how is species clause not consistent or coherent, though? not including certain forms in its definition would be less consistent and coherent than what we currently have because we'd on some level be picking and choosing what mons are and aren't allowed to be exempt from species clause. if we want to avoid arbitrary rules being introduced and try to work around this by making it more broad and saying "alternate non-aesthetic forms are exempt from species clause", then people are gonna start bringing two mausholds because there's technically a mechanical difference between the forms (maushold-four weighs more and that factors into heat crash/heavy slam calcs). or someone will find a double-ogerpon or double-slowking core that cracks the meta in half and we won't have a way to legally get rid of it besides reclausing. or some other nonsense will happen, i dunno, there are just too many risks for not enough of a benefit to the meta even in the best-case scenario

also, vgc has the same species clause we do, so touting them as "consistent and coherent" while ragging on species clause is kind of weird

 

[Ehmcee]

Would recommend that a lot of newgens take a look at past Tiering Policy Discussions on the topic:

- https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/tiering-different-formes-of-pokemon-separately.3670933/
- https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-comprehensive-stats-counting-policy.3580299/
- https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/an-alternative-to-species-clause.3664385/

Ultimately tiering forms and removing Species Clause are technically two different subjects, but they're fairly intertwined.
Won't get much into it, but I recommend people to read these

If it ain't broke, don't fix it

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

- https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/an-alternative-to-species-clause.3664385/

(supplemental note for readers: if you click on a pr thread and the op is permabanned, it's usually not gonna be a stellar suggestion)

 

[besudo]

Providing my two sense on the whole regional species clause discussion I believe that the arguments in favor of removing it are pretty sound and that largely because they don't really have to make strong arguments for replacing it in the first place. If anything it should be up to the status quo to justify its continued existence despite the ever changing landscape.


I like most here are not under any illusions that removing regional species clause will do really anything to shake up the meta at all. Too many of the regional forms like the slowkings or the Ogerpons cannabilize each others niches too much for it to seriously be considered a viable strategy to run multiple of them. Thus the reason to remove this clause wouldn't be because it would be unlocking some secretly good team archetypes or anything, but instead the reason to remove it is because it would just simply be funer.


Removing the clause would undoubtedly inspire the Pokeaims and Blimaxs of the world to make hype meme showcase videos of double regional form teams and yes people will copy it to join in the hype. The thing is though that timeline seems perfectly fine, since none if these seats will be viable it would just be players chasing the hype until it dies down. I feel stuff like this to shake things up is fine since it works to the communities favor, fun meme strats like this are what attract new players to the scene and helps keep the community thriving overall.


For as absurd as it may sound to some, I do believe that making changes based purely off of fun and meme is actually more convincing than just maintaining the rules in place cause that's just how we've always done things. Especially when you consider that we already arbitrarily decide when to forgo cartridge rules for the sake of carving out a more enjoyable metagame like what we did with item clause.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

If anything it should be up to the status quo to justify its continued existence despite the ever changing landscape.

that's… not how it works. the burden of proof lies on the people who want to bring about change. the status quo doesn't have to justify its own existence, especially when virtually everyone in the competitive scene is satisfied with it as it is right now. if you want this to be taken seriously, you need to provide actual, concrete proof that species clause in its current form is in some way inadequate and/or actively causing the meta to be less competitive than it otherwise would be. this is gonna be especially hard considering that we actually did briefly have a ladder without species clause for april fools' day once, so we have real data on what that theoretical meta might look like and it… well, it wasn't very good

I like most here are not under any illusions that removing regional species clause will do really anything to shake up the meta at all. Too many of the regional forms like the slowkings or the Ogerpons cannabilize each others niches too much for it to seriously be considered a viable strategy to run multiple of them. Thus the reason to remove this clause wouldn't be because it would be unlocking some secretly good team archetypes or anything, but instead the reason to remove it is because it would just simply be funer.


Removing the clause would undoubtedly inspire the Pokeaims and Blimaxs of the world to make hype meme showcase videos of double regional form teams and yes people will copy it to join in the hype. The thing is though that timeline seems perfectly fine, since none if these seats will be viable it would just be players chasing the hype until it dies down. I feel stuff like this to shake things up is fine since it works to the communities favor, fun meme strats like this are what attract new players to the scene and helps keep the community thriving overall.


For as absurd as it may sound to some, I do believe that making changes based purely off of fun and meme is actually more convincing than just maintaining the rules in place cause that's just how we've always done things. Especially when you consider that we already arbitrarily decide when to forgo cartridge rules for the sake of carving out a more enjoyable metagame like what we did with item clause.

actually, you know what, the rest of this argument is so far out of the realm of how we operate that i'm not even gonna bother with it

 

[arnimacarni]

that's… not how it works. the burden of proof lies on the people who want to bring about change. the status quo doesn't have to justify its own existence, especially when virtually everyone in the competitive scene is satisfied with it as it is right now. if you want this to be taken seriously, you need to provide actual, concrete proof that species clause in its current form is in some way inadequate and/or actively causing the meta to be less competitive than it otherwise would be. this is gonna be especially hard considering that we actually did briefly have a ladder without species clause for april fools' day once, so we have real data on what that theoretical meta might look like and it… well, it wasn't very good

actually, you know what, the rest of this argument is so far out of the realm of how we operate that i'm not even gonna bother with it

daddy i understand you and get your point but you're arguing in bad faith, nobody here is talking about removing species clause and painting it that way dumbs down the argument. running six hat pikachus, running the four deoxys, running the two magearnas, that makes no fucking sense to anybody. but zapdos and gapdos, slowking and glowking, ursaluna and bloodmoon, urshifu single and rapid... those are not the same mons. and im not arguing this bc im going to use zapdos and gapdos necessarily, its just that its archaic understanding of species clause

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

daddy i understand you and get your point but you're arguing in bad faith, nobody here is talking about removing species clause and painting it that way dumbs down the argument. running six hat pikachus, running the four deoxys, running the two magearnas, that makes no fucking sense to anybody. but zapdos and gapdos, slowking and glowking, ursaluna and bloodmoon, urshifu single and rapid... those are not the same mons. and im not arguing this bc im going to use zapdos and gapdos necessarily, its just that its archaic understanding of species clause

it's not an "archaic understanding", it is literally an official and current rule. a rule transplanted directly from on-cartridge formats, both programmed into the game and enforced by official competitions. you got a problem with species clause the way it's implemented? take it up with game freak, because smogon didn't create the clause

 

[Carl The Turtle]

daddy i understand you and get your point but you're arguing in bad faith, nobody here is talking about removing species clause and painting it that way dumbs down the argument. running six hat pikachus, running the four deoxys, running the two magearnas, that makes no fucking sense to anybody. but zapdos and gapdos, slowking and glowking, ursaluna and bloodmoon, urshifu single and rapid... those are not the same mons. and im not arguing this bc im going to use zapdos and gapdos necessarily, its just that its archaic understanding of species clause

Yeah this is a weird argument because all four deoxys formes have radically different stat distributions that result in them being tiered separately despite technically being the same pokemon due to the massive disparity in how useful they are at a point in time, same applies to the rotom formes, which despite having the same stat distribution, are tiered differently due to different movepools and typings massively affecting their viability. You list the urshifus as separate pokemon, but like rotom, they have the exact same stat distribution with the only differences being slight movepool changes and the typing. You cannot argue that pokemon formes are a bad faith argument when they work exactly the same as urshifu's different stances, it's either all or nothing and I'd personally rather take nothing.

 

[SittinGamer]

Is there a reason that this is about Species Clause as a whole and not just Regional Variants? The builder calls them (Name)-(Region). I suppose there's always the argument of accessibility of rules, but I feel like intuitively people could get that Zapdos and Glapdos aren't the same Pokemon when, say, the four Ogerpons are.

Edit: The prior linked threads are about Formes, but given we have had three straight generations of Regional Variants, literally called (Region)ian (Pokemon), so they seem to have ascended the Forme distinction of say, Rotom, Toxtricity, or even Wormadam of generations past.

 

[Avira]

Is there a reason that this is about Species Clause as a whole and not just Regional Variants? The builder calls them (Name)-(Region). I suppose there's always the argument of accessibility of rules, but I feel like intuitively people could get that Zapdos and Glapdos aren't the same Pokemon when, say, the four Ogerpons are.

Edit: The prior linked threads are about Formes, but given we have had three straight generations of Regional Variants, literally called (Region)ian (Pokemon), so they seem to have ascended the Forme distinction of say, Rotom, Toxtricity, or even Wormadam of generations past.

Gamefreak's official rules make it unviable to allow non-regional forms of a Pokemon on the same team. DaddyBuzzwole nailed it.

 

[Alternator]

On the one hand, if a change is desired, then there's the obvious "If it's tiered differently, you can use it on a team together" way to look at species clause. On the other, I got bored and had a cat sleeping on me, and I couldn't do much else but ponder strange ponderings, so:

If at least two of the following three are different between forms, they may be used on a team together:

1) Stats
2) Typing
3) Abilities/Movepool

Note this is not BST, this is the distribution of stats. You can use Slowking-K and Slowking-G together, as they have different typings and stats, but couldn't double up on Toxicitry, as the stats and typing remains the same. You also couldn't use multiple Deoxys forms, as they they share a typing and movepool.

On the downside, this means you could use Ogerpon forms together; they have different typing and abilities. There'd be similar niche case problems in other tiers and generations, and this is the main reason to not want to change anything.

 

[sims796]

it's not an "archaic understanding", it is literally an official and current rule. a rule transplanted directly from on-cartridge formats, both programmed into the game and enforced by official competitions. you got a problem with species clause the way it's implemented? take it up with game freak, because smogon didn't create the clause

Oh, now we're using official format? That suddenly has a precedent on how we tier? Perfect! Let's abolish the viewable percentage, and be damnable 4 friggin minute time limit per turn! If this meta wasn't so crazy, we would still have Sleep Clause, and the fact that we literally cannot replicate that properly on cartridge didn't stop us until the tier gotten too much for only the second time ever (I've never actually heard of the first).

I joke, partially. If it is a hard coded, on cartridge rule (I haven't touched the game in a while), then it is what it is. I argued for cart purity before for sleep clause, after all.

I don't mind arguments for or against such massive, radical change. I really like that this topic is even being bought up. I never gave it much thought, and I also never thought sleep clause would be done away with (I started playing Smogon for that in particular and I'm glad to see it go). We just banned sleep moves. Something they don't bother to do on cart or official formats.

It's all "how dare you even bring this up! GRRGH, ARGH!" Then you get put downs and stupid arguments. The only argument which I'm referring to being that 2 Kingambit nonsense - you KNOW that's not what is being spoken about, damn it. Shit like "all or nothing" tiering policy? Not opening a can of headaches? That I find perfectly valid arguments.

 

[Morkal]

Jolteon

"Jolteon creates electricity using an organ in its lungs, which causes crackling noises as it exhales. It can also generate low-level electricity in its cells, which is amplified by the negative ions it gathers and generates in its fur, allowing it to discharge 10,000-volt lightning bolts." - Bulbapedia

"Hi everyone, sorry for the long absence. I can't be on as much as I used to be, but I figure that a new long-form analysis is quite overdue even if it's not as long as usual." - Morkal​

BASE STATS	BST: 525
HP: 65	240 - 334​
Attack: 65	121 - 251​
Defense: 60	112 - 240​
Sp. Atk: 110	202 - 350​
Sp. Def: 95	175 - 317​
Speed: 130	238 - 394​

Introduction​

Jolteon is... well he's Jolteon, he's part of that select group of Generation One Pokemon that even people who haven't touched a Pokemon game since 1995 know about even to this day. While Jolteon is beloved in the public eye, his performance in competitive singles took a nosedive starting with XY's OU metagame and things have not looked particularly good for him otherwise. However, Jolteon has been woefully underlooked in this generation despite having gained some incredible new traits along with deceptively favorable metagame conditions. Jolteon is an incredible choice for offensive teams in need of its particular talents.

Jolteon Summarization
This section contains a "TLDR" of Jolteon's key advantages in the SV DLC2 OU metagame for those who don't want to read through the long-form essay analysis.​

• Jolteon is one of the few Pokemon that (when terastallized) can completely wall Raging Bolt thanks to dual-STAB immunity from Tera Fairy and its ability Volt Absorb.
• Jolteon's incredible base 130 speed outpaces every single OU Pokemon except for Deoxys-Speed, Dragapult, and Zamazenta. This is critical as it's one of the few Pokemon that can outspeed blazing-fast Pokemon such as Darkrai and Weavile and threaten them.
• Jolteon's offensive role compression thanks to its speed, coverage, and solid base 110 Special Attack stat is incredible - allowing it to threaten key metagame threats such as Alomomola, Corviknight, Dondozo, Enamorus, Samurott-Hisui, and Skarmory.
• Jolteon's newfound access to Tera Fairy allows it to stay in on and threaten or outright KO multiple problematic threats such as Darkrai, Dragapult, Great Tusk, Iron Valiant, and Kyurem.
• Jolteon's newfound access to Alluring Voice as a Fairy-type coverage move allows it to bypass Substitute. Additionally, Jolteon's access to Weather Ball and STAB Thunder means that it's potent on Rain teams.
• Jolteon can fit on a variety of offensive teams thanks to having STAB Volt Switch to be a fast pivot, and it pairs quite well with metagame staples such as Swords Dance Gliscor, Landorus-Therian, Great Tusk, and Zamazenta.
• Jolteon's flexibility with Tera adds some newfound unpredictability to its game, as it can use Tera Ice to take on threats like Gliscor while it can use Tera Fighting to take on Kingambit and other specific threats.

Disclaimer: Jolteon is specifically meant for offensive teams in need of its specific talents; it does not fit well on more defensive builds, as the item choice it requires on those teams limits its power to levels that limit its usefulness. I very highly recommend checking out the wonderful SV OU Speed Tiers thread that Mada posted along with specific movesets for Jolteon's meta matchups. Also, this analysis will be smaller than my usual posts due to my slammed schedule + Jolteon's more narrow focus. So aspects such as defensive utility and teammates will be a brief overview.

Jolteon @ Expert Belt
Ability: Volt Absorb
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 24 SpD / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt/Thunder (For Rain Teams)
- Volt Switch
- Shadow Ball/Weather Ball (For Rain Teams)
- Alluring Voice/Tera Blast

Special thanks to Bog Monster for reminding me that Alluring Voice is a great move that exists; that I blank-brained on for some reason, it's worth a slash-in here. Also special thanks to DaddyBuzzwole and Heatranator for talking through the benefits of Jolteon's access to Weather Ball alongside STAB Thunder on Rain teams.

Set Breakdown

​

This analysis will be comparatively shorter when compared to my other long-form analysis posts as this set is pretty straightforward. 232-speed EVs with a Timid nature puts Jolteon at 389, allowing it to outspeed neutral 252 EV +1 Dragonite, Hoopa-U, Mamoswine, and Blaziken who are locked at 388; this also keeps its speed advantage over threats like neutral 252 EV Dragapult and Timid/Jolly 252 EV Darkrai/Weavile. Special Attack requires the full 252 EV investment along with Expert Belt to hit specific damage benchmarks, while the extra EVs are put into Jolteon's workable base 95 Special Defense and can allow it to avoid the OHKO and 2HKO on some pretty gnarly moves in a pinch.

So what can Jolteon take on? Let's take a look at some of Jolteon's damage benchmarks with its two STAB moves - Thunderbolt and Tera Blast Fairy/Alluring Voice along with its coverage move Shadow Ball (we'll exclusively be focusing on Expert Belt-boosted attacks here).

Damage Thresholds

Jolteon - OHKO/OHKO chances

Damage Calculations

252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 583-686 (109.1 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 360-425 (90 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darkrai: 305-360 (108.5 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 446-526 (88.4 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Dragapult: 396-468 (124.9 - 147.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragapult: 355-420 (111.9 - 132.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Enamorus: 377-446 (130.4 - 154.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 244 HP / 16 SpD Tera Water Gliscor: 389-461 (110.5 - 130.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 463-547 (106.6 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 425-499 (146.5 - 172%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 283-334 (97.5 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kommo-o: 533-634 (183.1 - 217.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 374-442 (127.6 - 150.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 362-427 (94.5 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 552-653 (157.2 - 186%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 446-526 (138.9 - 163.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 396-468 (123.3 - 145.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 425-499 (127.2 - 149.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 326-389 (97.6 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO)

252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake: 326-389 (95.3 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 319-377 (113.5 - 134.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Jolteon - 2HKO/2HKO chances

Damage Calculations

252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 140-166 (43.3 - 51.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
(If Dragonite is chipped, it's gone. 252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 281-331 (86.9 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO)

252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 324-382 (77.1 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 202-238 (64.1 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 204-240 (53.9 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hatterene: 182-216 (57.2 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Boulder: 175-206 (54.5 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem: 305-360 (78 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Primarina: 276-326 (75.8 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Primarina: 182-218 (56.6 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Raging Bolt: 310-367 (76.1 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 247-295 (63.6 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Jolteon - 3HKOs

Damage Calculations

252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Iron Crown: 118-139 (36.7 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 127-151 (32.2 - 38.3%) -- 97.4% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Fairy Jolteon Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 175-209 (34 - 40.6%) -- 39.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Additional Information + Conclusion

​

Jolteon has a phenomenal offensive presence on its team as you can see from the thresholds and unique threat combinations that it hits super effectively. Jolteon's minor Special Defense EVs allow it to perform feats such as avoiding an OHKO from Earth Power Kyurem pre-Tera and avoiding the 2HKO from Earth Power Kyurem post-tera. Jolteon partners exceptionally well with Zamazenta and the duo creates a phenomenal speed core along with covering each other's biggest issues. Dragapult, Great Tusk, and Kyurem also make incredible partners for Jolteon to help make up for some of its negative traits such as its quite poor physical bulk.

Jolteon has some unpredictability with Tera as well, as you can run Tera Ice to stuff Gliscor or Tera Fighting to whomp Kingambit. Jolteon is a straightforward offensive Pokemon with a specific niche toolkit and wonderful overall stats that have been made much better in the advent of SV's Terastallized metagame. Additionally, Jolteon can use Weather Ball, allowing it to decimate key threats on weather teams; Rain teams in particular appreciate Jolteon's talents and they also allow Jolteon to run Thunder instead of Thunderbolt, significantly buffing its damage output along with potentially crippling any non-immune switch-ins.

(I'm sorry the analysis is shorter than usual. I wanted to get this post about Jolteon up within my limited free time and I felt that with a straightforward offensive Pokemon with a specific niche like this, it would be informative enough as is!)

 

[Anchor9]

My new OU team once the new rules are implemented:

Paste


Disruptive Lead (Pikachu) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Static
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Nuzzle
- Endeavor
- Volt Switch

Pikachu is this team’s lead. With Fake Out it deals some chip. Nuzzle can cripple stuff like Zamazenta or Darkrai. Endeavor takes advantage of Pikachu’s high Speed to cripple anything that attacks it on the Nuzzle turn. Volt Switch provides momentum.


Special Attacker (Pikachu-Alola) (M) @ Light Ball
Ability: Lightning Rod
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Surf
- Nasty Plot
- Agility

A deadly double dancer especially with Light Ball. Might as well be Miraidon. Thunderbolt is STAB and Surf is coverage for annoying Grounds like Iron Treads and Great Tusk. Nasty Plot + Agility is the double dance part.


Physical Attacker (Pikachu-Hoenn) @ Light Ball
Ability: Lightning Rod
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wild Charge
- Knock Off / Upper Hand
- Play Rough
- Agility

Crazy strong bro with Tera Electric Wild Charge and crazy coverage. Pretty much the Zacian-C of OU. Agility allows it to outspeed threats like Zamazenta and Darkrai. Knock Off punishes switches, such as if the opponent switches out of Primarina and to Great Tusk. Upper Hand is an option to blow up Sucker Punch Kingambit. Play Rough provides coverage against Raging Bolt and the Dark types of the tier. Lightning Rod means Raging Bolt can’t revenge kill.


Physical Wall (Pikachu-Kalos) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Static
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Alluring Voice
- Wish
- Volt Switch

Physical wall of the team. Tera Ghost makes Zamazenta and Dragonite cry. Static annoys stuff like Gouging Fire. Protect allows Pikachu to scout choice sets from Barraskewda and Dragapult so it can switch to an appropriate answer, while also allowing it to receive its own Wish. Alluring Voice punishes Iron Defense Zamazenta and Swords Dance Ogerpon-W. Wish provides healing support for the sweepers and Volt Switch allows for a safe pivot.


Special Wall (Pikachu-Unova) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Lightning Rod
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Alluring Voice
- Wish
- Volt Switch

Cry Raging Bolt. Tera Fairy + Lighting Rod walls non-weather sets, while also dodging an attack from Darkrai. Role is very similar to Physical wall Pikachu except it’s invested in SpDef.


Disruptive Pivot (Pikachu-Sinnoh) @ Light Ball
Ability: Static
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Knock Off
- Encore
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch

Comes in as a cool bro and deals the damage. Thunderbolt hits hard and Volt Switch is to pivot. Encore traps Calm Mind Primarina and Swords Dance Kingambit. Knock Off removes items. Gliscor isn’t a free switch with this. Tera Poison to remove Toxic Spikes.

Hope this team brings much Elo once the Species Clause is adjusted.

 

[SittinGamer]

>Literally any time someone mentions regional variants with regards to species clause.
>haha i cant believe people want teams of four deoxys, ogers, and 6 pikachu (tho it is funny the hats are considered regional)

 

[Ehmcee]

A lot of people that seem to talk about altering species clause in it's current form are misguided in my opinion, because ultimately I think any Tiering Policy change on this level should have pro's that heavily outweigh the cons, with a focus on OverUsed, similarly to how the Sleep Clause was handled.

A change to the current clause has to be objective and clearly understandable, Alternator is the only one that has proposed a concrete implementable adjustment to the current clause, which doesn't absolutely decimate lower tiers by allowing multiple of Silvally, Pikachu or Oricorios.

I don't think allowing regional forms on the same team as their regular counterparts is worth the headache of going through every single instance of multiple forms.

If a concrete situation is proposed, it would have to differentiate between the following list of duplicate forms btw:

List of Pokemon with Multiple Forms

For the purposes of this list, any Pokemon that is listed as a seperate physical Pokemon (typically with a different sprite), but share a Dex Number, this also uniquely focuses on gen 9 OU available Pokemon, ignoring old gens and Ubers, as well as mid-battle forms for the context of BH (which already has rules in place for this).
These are only for Pokemon with Concrete differences in Typing, Abilities, Stats or Movepool, these are the main objective criteria to go off, without including things like Pikachu Caps, Zarude forms, Gastrodon or others as well as even Gender Sprite Differences.


NON-REGIONAL

Tauros:

- Tauros-Paldea
- Tauros-Paldea-Aqua
- Tauros-Paldea-Blaze

Deoxys:

- Deoxys-Speed
- Deoxys-Defense

Rotom:
- Rotom
- Rotom-Heat
- Rotom-Wash
- Rotom-Frost
- Rotom-Fan
- Rotom-Mow

Arceus:
- All of them

Basculin:
- Basculin
- Basculin-Blue-Striped
- Basculin-White-Striped

Basculegion:
- Basculegion
- Basculegion-Female

Tornadus:
- Tornadus
- Tornadus-Therian

Thundurus:
- Thundurus
- Thundurus-Therian

Enamorus:
- Enamorus
- Enamorus-Therian

Keldeo:
- Keldeo
- Keldeo-Resolute

Vivillon:
- Vivillon
- Vivillon-Fancy
- Vivillon-Pokeball

Meowstic:
- Meowstic
- Meowstic-Female

Hoopa:
- Hoopa
- Hoopa-Unbound

Oricorio:
- Oricorio
- Oricorio-Pom-Pom
- Oricorio-Pa'u
- Oricorio-Sensu

Lycanroc:
- Lycanroc
- Lycanroc-Midnight
- Lycanroc-Dusk

Silvally:
- All of them

Toxtricity:
- Toxtricity
- Toxtricity-Low-Key

Indeedee:
- Indeedee
- Indeedee-Female

Oinkologne:
- Oinkologne
- Oinkologne-Female

Squawkabilly:
- Green and Blue
- Yellow and White

Ogerpon:
- Ogerpon
- Ogerpon-Wellspring
- Ogerpon-Hearthflame
- Ogerpon-Cornerstone

REGIONAL:

- Diglett
- Dugtrio
- Exeggutor
- Geodude
- Graveler
- Golem
- Grimer
- Muk
- Meowth-Alola
- Persian
- Raichu
- Sandshrew
- Sandslash
- Vulpix
- Ninetales

- Meowth-Galar
- Slowpoke
- Slowbro
- Slowking
- Weezing
- Articuno
- Zapdos
- Moltres

- Growlithe
- Arcanine
- Avalugg
- Braviary
- Decidueye
- Voltorb
- Electrode
- Sliggoo
- Goodra
- Lilligant
- Qwilfish
- Samurott
- Typhlosion
- Zorua
- Zoruark

- Wooper
- Tauros

For what it's worth, following Alternator's suggestion would allow for the following forms to be run together in OU:

Example

- Tauros, Tauros-Paldea, Tauros-Paldea-Blaze, Tauros-Paldea-Aqua
- Rotom, Rotom-Heat, Rotom-Wash, Rotom-Frost, Rotom-Fan, Rotom-Mow
- Basculin or Basculin-Blue-Stripe, Basculin-White-Stripe
- Tornadus, Tornadus-Therian
- Thundurus, Thundurus-Therian
- Enamorus, Enamorus-Therian
- Hoopa, Hoopa-Unbound
- Lycanroc, Lycanroc-Midnight, Lycanroc-Dusk
- Ogerpon, Ogerpon-Wellspring, Ogerpon-Cornerstone
- Diglett, Diglett-Alola
- Dugtrio, Dugtrio-Alola
- Exeggutor, Exeggutor-Alola
- Geodude, Geodude-Alola
- Graveler, Graveler-Alola
- Golem, Golem-Alola
- Grimer, Grimer-Alola
- Muk, Muk-Alola
- Meowth, Meowth-Alola, Meowth-Galar
- Persian, Persian-Alola
- Raichu, Raichu-Alola
- Sandshrew, Sandshrew-Alola
- Sandslash, Sandslash-Alola
- Vuplix, Vulpix-Alola
- Ninetales, Ninetales-Alola
- Slowpoke, Slowpoke-Galar
- Slowbro, Slowbro-Galar
- Slowking, Slowking-Galar
- Weezing, Weezing-Galar
- Articuno, Articuno-Galar
- Zapdos, Zapdos-Galar
- Moltres, Moltres-Galar
- Growlithe, Growlithe-Hisui
- Arcanine, Arcanine-Hisui
- Avalugg, Avalugg-Hisui
- Braviary, Braviary-Hisui
- Decidueye, Decidueye-Hisui
- Voltorb, Voltorb-Hisui
- Electrode, Electrode-Hisui
- Sliggoo, Sliggoo-Hisui
- Goodra, Goodra-Hisui
- Lilligant, Lilligant-Hisui
- Qwilfish, Qwilfish-Hisui
- Samurott, Samurott-Hisui
- Typhlosion, Typhlosion-Hisui
- Zorua, Zorua-Hisui
- Zoroark, Zoroark-Hisui
- Wooper, Wooper-Hisui

I honestly think this is the implementation method with the least negative repercutions from any solution proposed as it comes to combinations, but ultimately, what would we even gain from this?
The only OU Cores that would ever see any level of viability would be Zapdos+Zapdos-G, Moltres+Moltres-G, Ogerpon+Ogerpon-Cornerstone+Ogerpon-Wellspring. All the others would be incredibly gimmicky or straight up unviable in the current OU landscape.

Having more freedom is cool and all, but it becomes very complicated to the newer player as well to understand which forms they're allowed together, and which forms they're not.