While I think there might be something to that (also want to shout out Bloodmoon Ursaluna while we’re on the subject), I personally don’t really agree that Poltchageist would make more sense as a regional variant, at least according to the backstory it was given. Yes, backstory is entirely arbitrary and sculpted to meet whatever angle they want a given Pokémon to cover, but working with what we’ve got, Poltchageist isn’t the result of an imported Sinistea having to migrate into a new vessel, as would be the case for a regional variant. Poltchageist’s origin is entirely separate: a tea master’s spirit inhabited a matcha caddy. The species began right there and then, and just happened, due to its environment, to inhabit a vessel that’s sort of similar in theme to a teacup. It’s pure coincidence, which is the name of the game with convergent species.
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While I think there might be something to that (also want to shout out Bloodmoon Ursaluna while we’re on the subject), I personally don’t really agree that Poltchageist would make more sense as a regional variant, at least according to the backstory it was given. Yes, backstory is entirely arbitrary and sculpted to meet whatever angle they want a given Pokémon to cover, but working with what we’ve got, Poltchageist isn’t the result of an imported Sinistea having to migrate into a new vessel, as would be the case for a regional variant. Poltchageist’s origin is entirely separate: a tea master’s spirit inhabited a matcha caddy. The species began right there and then, and just happened, due to its environment, to inhabit a vessel that’s sort of similar in theme to a teacup. It’s pure coincidence, which is the name of the game with convergent species.
this implies that blood moon ursaluna is genetically different from other ursaluna. my understanding is that this is just the transformation a single ursaluna went through.
I was gesturing more toward “Bloodmoon Ursaluna is a clever workaround for ‘Kitakamian Ursaluna.” I wasn’t trying to say that it’s a convergent species (it explicitly isn’t).
what I'm saying is that it doesn't even meet the qualifications to be a regional varient
CORRECTION: Poltchageist isn't the tea ceremony master's spirit. It's the master's regret (from not perfecting his craft... despite being considered a master?) which lingered into matcha that became this Pokemon.
So I guess taking THAT into consideration the two are different. Sinistea is a spirit of a person who died alone and possessed their tea set. So Sinistea is a ghost possessing a tea set (an object for holding/containing the drink), while Poltchageist is a Tsukumogami from matcha (the substance that becomes the drink itself).
Still, I wouldn't have a problem with this if their evolution method just wasn't so similar. Like, we have other possessed object Ghost-type Pokemon: Yamask, Spiritomb, Phantump, Sandyghast, etc.. But for the ones that evolve they either do so "naturally" (from Level) or have a unique method that's usually not shared with another Pokemon. And heck, even then there's exceptions, like Galarian Yamask (it's unclear whether its a Yamask that got cursed by a runestone or it's a runestone that attracted a spirit and just so happened to form into a Yamask). But Sinistea's and Poltchageist's evolutions are unique in the exact same way as each other: most of are a mundane container which evolve into a bigger/drinking container, meanwhile there's a rare few in a special container which require an equally rare special bigger/drinking container to evolve (something which makes sense for Sinistea as it's the actual tea set; but why does Poltchgeist which is the matcha so specific ("well because the master's regret would want it to remain consistent". But if that's the case why would any Poltchageist settle for a mundane container in the first place?)).
I guess one part of the question there is do we define the species as the Ghost, or the Ghost-in-the-Tea-Bowl/Pot? Because theoretically a lot of Ghost/Object Pokemon are supposed to be a vague spirit that inhabits a Physical object or Body (some noted like Banette, Houndstone, Spiritomb, Yamask, Phantump, Pumpkaboo, Honedge, the Seaweed on Dhelmise), and the form they take is what distinguishes them. I also don't think the banner of "Tea" is enough to throw them under being "the same" any more than you could classify all Birds as the same species for the same Wing-and-beak Biology for example. Tea as a concept is essentially just boiling plant matter into a drinkable liquid, so theoretically the substance differs by the species of plant used.
I don't think the "Spirit" vs "Regret" thing is too distinct, both cases being deceased individuals anchored to something physical after a solitary death (Polchageist mentions the Tea Master's obsession essentially drove everyone away from them so they'd still be on their own). The obsession also makes a degree of sense: the Tea Master is good at his craft objectively, but he continually believed his craft could be improved (most Martial Arts masters continue training even with the title, for example) and obsessed over continuing to push further to a destructive degree, and died thinking he hadn't achieved perfection that he strove for.
If I may get pedantic, their behaviors and physiology also differ if you go deeper than the resemblance of "possessed Tea and Teapot" that the Similar-Classification is drawn out of. Polteageist seem very picky with who is "allowed" to drink their tea, seemingly gifting it to trusted individuals but with the tea being dangerous to consume in excess, while simultaneously using it as a defense mechanism by force-feeding it to opponents. Sinistcha by comparison tries to essentially sneak its tea into being drunk with little success, which is actually closer to Sinistea's behavior (being a possessed cup that drains vitality when drunk, but tastes awful and thus rarely is).
Additionally, Polteageist is described as reproducing by pouring itself into other teas, while the Sinistcha line only brings up being consumed as a means to sustain itself rather than reproduce, implying a difference even on the supernatural nature of the possessed Tea. Poltchageist and Sinistcha also describe themselves as arising specifically from Matcha, compared to that Polteageist Dex entry suggesting the Tea that becomes the Pokemon isn't very particular before it's been enspirited (could you imagine if they pulled an Alcremie and had different "Tea" forms for Polteageist instead/on-top of the Phony/Antique gimmick?)
Despite the pre-evolved forms, both Polteageist and Sinistcha seem to be depicted with their bodies being the Tea itself (and Poltchageist still appears on the Tea Caddy for facial emotes rather than being solely the Matcha in its first form), which probably explains the shared evolution method.
That said this does bring me to the consideration that while seemingly derived from Convergent Evolution as a concept, the outlier then becomes Toedscruel to Tentracruel rather than Sinistcha/Polteageist. The Tea Pokemon and Dig/Wiglett line follow the premise pretty basically, evolving similar body types because they give them similar biological benefits/purposes (the Tea substance as a survival mechanism and popping out of the ground in response to predators/prey). Toedscruel on the other hand is a land-based species, which compared to the aquatic Tentacruel seems very bizarre moving around on its 10 tentacles vs propelling itself (squeezing and constricting Prey makes sense), especially since it sort of bounces about rather than walks on 2 like Toedscool.
In that case I think some Regional Variants also have to be made Ecologically Similar Pokemon.
Voltorb and Hisuian Voltorb can no way be related.
And as mentioned above, possibly Yamask and Galarian Yamask.
While I get your point, I would still argue they are different things (which would only further distance them from being Regional Variants). A "spirit" is the actual person, or at least part of the person, that died. A "regret" isn't, metaphysically speaking it's something the person produced but it's not directly connected to them. Of course this discourse falls apart as soon as the question "then where did all the other members of their species come from". Because while an "original" Sinistea is via a ghost and the "original" Poltchageist is from festering regret, all others are created from one other Sinistea/Poltchageist, so there must be some kind of other spirits impersonating the originals.
Also: These are likely folktales so how true they are is up in the air.
It's all very arbitrary & combined with the Paradoxes happening the same generation, feels like they just kind of got bored with regional variants and wanted to do something "different".
like, even with Wiglett. They didn't have to make it an eel. "Diglett of the Paldean region adapted to take to the water, becoming slimey and developing gills. how mysterious, it became very eel like!" would be about in line with the several "to adapt to this climate they Died" regional variants or "grew actual legs" like Lilligant or "Why did it get Psychic powers? Who knows. Maybe it was Pancakes : )" or whatever is going on with the Galarian birds.
like, even with Wiglett. They didn't have to make it an eel. "Diglett of the Paldean region adapted to take to the water, becoming slimey and developing gills. how mysterious, it became very eel like!" would be about in line with the several "to adapt to this climate they Died" regional variants or "grew actual legs" like Lilligant or "Why did it get Psychic powers? Who knows. Maybe it was Pancakes : )" or whatever is going on with the Galarian birds.
explain, please
Hisuian Voltorb has existed for over 10,000 years, regular Voltorb only started being seen after Pokeballs started being manufactured in factories and the Crystal entry implies it's technological in nature while Hisuian is explicitly a plant with seeds.
See, to me it doesn’t seem unclear at all — Sword’s Pokédex entry for Galarian Yamask states that a cursed clay slab took possession of a Yamask. Shield’s entry is a little more vague, saying that the slab was drawn to a “vengeful spirit,” which I suppose could be any old unattached spirit, but given the context of the Sword entry, as well as the larger context of how regional forms have been defined, I think it is reasonable to take that entry as simply referring to an existing Yamask.
So when I see something like Poltchageist, the distinction between phenomena is reasonably apparent: a regional variant is an existing species that adapted to a new environment (or was changed by something unique to that environment), while a convergent species is a creature that coincidentally took on a form similar to that of another unrelated creature.
Why not? Voltorb’s own origins have always been kept nebulous; I think there’s ample room for a connection with Hisuian Voltorb to be made.
> “It was discovered when Poké Balls were introduced. It is said that there is some connection.”
> “During the study of this Pokémon, it was discovered that its components are not found in nature.”
> “Voltorb was first sighted at a company that manufactures Poké Balls. The link between that sighting and the fact that this Pokémon looks very similar to a Poké Ball remains a mystery.”
> “Voltorb is extremely sensitive - it explodes at the slightest of shocks. It is rumored that it was first created when a Poké Ball was exposed to a powerful pulse of energy.”
With a little creativity, there’s a lot of room for association here. Maybe a Hisuian Voltorb found its way into one of those Poké Ball companies, wound up inside a Poké Ball, and then that Poké Ball was “exposed to a powerful pulse of energy,” causing the Hisuian Voltorb to mutate. Or maybe it was just some of that Hisuian Voltorb’s seeds that got inside some of the Poké Ball supply and were exposed to the energy. Or maybe that rumor is just a rumor, and Hisuian Voltorb mysteriously transformed itself to better match the new kinds of Poké Balls. Maybe Voltorb is some kind of Absorbing Man-type that can take on the properties of whatever it comes into contact with. I mean, we’re in the series with a sludge creature formed by x-rays from the moon!
In the sense that there’s only one extant specimen, sure. But if you were to bring more Ursaluna into the Timeless Woods, what would happen? The precise factors needed to cause regional variants to develop are already about as vague as what happened to that one Ursaluna, so the distinction is murky at best.
In fact, the phenomenon behind Bloodmoon Ursaluna seems only a short distance away from the phenomenon that produced Hisuian Decidueye, Typhlosion, and Samurott — all of whom were the result of singular specimens being brought to the Hisui region. Presumably, they were not genetically any different from other Rowlet, Cyndaquil, or Oshawott, and yet, simply by evolving within Hisui, they matured into entirely new forms adapted to the environment.
I’m not trying to push for a formal reclassification or anything, of course. My point is mainly just that, in the same way it was proposed by Pikachu315111 that Poltchageist and Sinistcha may have been designed as convergent species in order to circumvent the terminology of a “Kitakamian Form,” Bloodmoon Ursaluna may have been designed under a similar logic — something that is thematically not that different from a regional form, but is just different enough to where the established regional form terminology can be eschewed.
When i see "components" being used in context of "not found in nature" I am not assuming "regular biological being", especially with the extra context of "modern day pokeball facilities"
That is Electrode's dex entry. I am looking at, and quoting directly, Voltorb's
Well, this brings up a huge question. If humans were studying it, but it is artificial, then that begs the question of "who built it?" I think there are two routes of thought. The first is that it was built in secret, whether by a government, evil team, or just some guy who was good with technology. The second line of thinking:
Aliens
Getting back on topic, first of all, I don't think we have any proof that Hisuian Voltorb are not artificial. Second of all, it could just be a body part exclusive to it. However, there is a third possibility. It could be like a hermit crab, in that it uses things it finds to use in its body. All of these are terrible explanations I came up with, and I believe exactly none of them.
Here is something to consider. This pokemon is extinct in modern times, and was only labeled by those who lived in the past. If they are different species, that just means that the scientists who named it heard about Hisuian Voltorb and assumed they were similar. This does not set a precedent for any regional variant that is not Hisuian.
I figured the same thing, probably referring to a normal Yamask that got possessed (wonder what happened to the masks of these initial cursed ones?), though the Shield entry is odd in that case because why not also mention Yamask instead of "vengeful spirit".
But this is ignoring that apparently no one has seen a Voltorb until modern Poke Balls starting being produced. All entries treat it like a new creature that sprung from the ether and not a pre-existing similar Poke Ball-looking creature.
For your explanation we'd have to assume a VERY secluded group of Hisuian Voltorb survived to the present without ever being noticed, which is a very precarious position to be in because as soon as they no doubt introduce a region with still living Hisuian Voltorb that everyone knows about this theory falls apart.
Though I guess there COULD be another theory if you don't mind a big ball of wibbly wobbly, timey wimey stuff. Considering the Space-Time Distortions were flinging things like Porygon, Upgrades, Dubious Discs, and the Rotom Appliances back in time; could be maybe there was a Space-Time Distortion that threw a Voltorb or few further back in time and THEY adapted into Hisuian Voltorbs. Like, that wouldn't explain why no one knew of Voltorbs if they ever have Hisuian Voltorbs in the wild in a future game... unless in the Pokemon World changing the past doesn't completely change the present unless it was something drastic. Would explain why old Pokemon get new Types out of no where.
Goldenrod Gym Trainer: Hey Whitney, why is the Gym in a shape of a Clefairy?
Whitney: Well, it's cute, I have one on my team, and we're a Normal-type Gym!
Trainer: Well that last part is what I mean. We're a Normal-type Gym. Clefairy is a Fairy-type.
Whitney: Oh, right. I forgot.
Trainer: Forgot? How? You have one. And I can't be the first one to have brought this up when constructing the Gym.
Whitney: It... just seemed like... a Normal-type at the time...
Trainer: Um, Whitney, why is your nose bleeding?
(I will redact this joke if the next Johto games "fixes" this; probably replace it with a Jigglypuff)
Whitney: Well, it's cute, I have one on my team, and we're a Normal-type Gym!
Trainer: Well that last part is what I mean. We're a Normal-type Gym. Clefairy is a Fairy-type.
Whitney: Oh, right. I forgot.
Trainer: Forgot? How? You have one. And I can't be the first one to have brought this up when constructing the Gym.
Whitney: It... just seemed like... a Normal-type at the time...
Trainer: Um, Whitney, why is your nose bleeding?
(I will redact this joke if the next Johto games "fixes" this; probably replace it with a Jigglypuff)
Right, thank you for reminding me.
I'm not saying that the current way they wrote it that it doesn't make sense (well, sorta, though going back to my main point). My point is it feels like it was originally meant be a Regional Variant, realized they'd have to go through the trouble of trademarking the term "Kitakamian", and so wrote it that it would be an Ecologically Similar Pokemon.
Not really? Instead of looking like Poke Balls they would just look like the fruit which is used to make Poke Balls (which vaguely look like Poke Balls), and that's it. All the questions and discussion we've had would still apply.
Yes, but it makes the whole relationship between them make sense. Hisuian Voltorb evolves to mimic a local fruit, humans start using an altered form of the fruit in their society, Kantonian Voltorb evolves to resemble the altered form of that fruit. The whole "we've never seen this mon before" is because it is a sudden jump from H-Voltorb to K-Voltorb. Especially if the H-Voltorbs were going/went extinct due to Humans overharvesting their camouflage and accidentally throwing H-Voltorbs into their ball manufacturing machines. Scientists are expecting to never see an H-Voltorb again, and then a mon whose looks/type/abilities are similar but not the same shows up in a different environment. Presumably, whether the two of them are related or not is an ongoing taxonomic argument with no clear answer. After all, it COULD be spontaneous generation of life, or a different mon evolving to mimic Pokeballs, there's no reason to assume that it's related any more than Foongus and H-Voltorb are related. That would lead to the very confused Dex entries trying to figure out where it came from.
Did you really get "someone deliberately built it" from these dex entries?
Isn't the implication here very plainly that Voltorb's creation was most likely not intended, and was instead an accident?
How would that even happen? I'd say that there is probably plenty of uses for an electronic storage unit, and a sentient bomb is a pretty useful bioweapon.
...how does any accident happen? As the dex says, it's theorised that a Pokeball was subjected to a pulse of electrical energy. How that came about is left unsaid.
I'm not saying it couldn't have been intentionally created, just that literally nothing in the series to my knowledge implies that it was. If it had been, surely more would be known about it instead of its origins being unknown - pretty much all other manmade Pokemon in Gen I, like Mewtwo and Porygon, are called out as such explicitly, i.e. "it was created by scientists", "it is a man-made Pokemon". But Voltorb's dex entries repeatedly describe it as being "discovered" rather than created, indicating that no credit was taken by anyone for it.