Serious The Politics Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
Disgusting statement by Phil. I do agree that the time to pressure Harris hard is now.

But I think you can’t be effective just going ballistic. You look better if you can show a good faith effort was made to demand promises.

As soon as Biden dropped out, Rashida Tlaib demanded an audience with Kamala and assurances. It would be great if she could come forth asap on whether she could get that or anything productive from it. If not I’d fully support protests going nutz

So apparently this is already in the works— both Harris and Walz having met prior to the rally and agreeing to continue meetings with Uncommitted leaders to discuss concrete policy change.

In Mike’s vid you can see testimony from one of the movement leaders there

It’s not what we want until real arm-twisting on Israel is publicly announced policy PRE-election—

but the left’s got to be ready with stick AND carrot to secure meaningful concessions and commitment to moving the ball forward.

Because as we’ve seen with Israel, it really doesn’t matter what the rest of the world thinks; China, Russia, and India, Japan, Korea, Canada and Europe— all of the world’s other powers and allies could line up on the right side and nothing will change if the U.S. doesn’t deal with this.

For anything to change, it HAS to be a Democratic win in November AND there HAS to be commitment to consequences for Israel.
 
There’s that word - “consequences”.

For undertaking a genocide, Germany was literally partitioned, military disbanded, and controlled by two groups of ruling other countries at the end of the second world war. Reparations were not as heavy as after world war one.

Israel has been undertaking apartheid policies including displacement, and moving into the genocidal side of things for decades. There’s been no economic sanctions, there’s been no reduction in military assistance until recently when the voices of the individual peoples across the world grew louder. Some Western countries have sanctioned settlers for settler violence, but with the crimes being uncovered almost daily by the IDF, you question whether this is enough (short answer: no, it’s not).

Meanwhile, in what can only be described as the sequel to their 1933 interview with Adolf Hitler on the front cover, Time magazine interviewed Netanyahu. No, again, I’m not making this up. This man - with an ICC arrest warrant for crimes against humanity in the works - is on the front cover of Time magazine:

https://time.com/7008717/benjamin-netanyahu-interview/

The only good thing about the article is that it showcases the divergence between the reality of the rest of the world, and that of Netanayhu‘s beliefs.

Giving such a platform to the man is an example of the USAs astonishing hubris at the minute. You simply cannot work with and support a man who is about to stand trial for crimes against humanity. Doing so makes the USA complicit. Which I think will lead to repercussions for the USA in years to come: their global standing was already not good, now the entire UN is united in one belief.

The USA are the bad faith actors in this whole sorry humanitarian catastrophe. You cannot claim to want a ceasefire and want aid to get into Gaza whilst also providing nearly all of the weaponry being used on Gaza. That‘s obviously putting on two faces and two hats and trying to eat the cake whilst stealing the cake and blowing up the table it was sitting on.
 
I legit hate how people are like "oh look at how El Salvador fought crime, we can be like them"

Bro El Salvador is tiny :pikuh: Crime fighting in a tiny, high density country is a completely different task than crime fighting everywhere else
 
The argument of “the other guy would be worse, vote for us” is one of those intellectually bankrupt arguments that needs ending.

No, it is the strongest factual argument. It is not intellectually bankrupt. The next President will either be Kamala Harris or convicted felon Donald Trump whether you like them or hate them both. A vote is not some endorsement of everything either one of them has ever done. It’s a choice of which direction the country should go in. The moral posturing over what is a binary choice is what got convicted felon Trump elected in the first place.
 
No, it is the strongest factual argument. It is not intellectually bankrupt. The next President will either be Kamala Harris or convicted felon Donald Trump whether you like them or hate them both. A vote is not some endorsement of everything either one of them has ever done. It’s a simple choice of which direction the country should go in.
I'm not saying your wrong. I'm just saying that "a vote not being an endorsement" is peak America.
 
You people do understand that voting for Harris/Walz doesn't mean not participating in education/organization/agitation right, and also isn't a ringing endorsement of everything they've ever done and supported, right? Do you think it's easier to operate as a leftist in America under a progressive-leaning regime or under a Republican regime?

Also not gonna lie, having a total lack of empathy for marginalized groups in America because marginalized groups in the global south have it worse is a bit fucking gross and makes me question whether you actually believe in intersectionalism at all if it doesn't directly benefit you. Interesting that transphobic concern trolling is fine as long as it's an ostensible leftist doing it.
Voting for someone is finding their policy acceptable.

Not committing your vote as a group is the only power the constituency has in America when it comes to the federal election. Here is a thought: If Kamala wants leftist votes, has she considered, I dunno...

Doing what they asked?

For people who people on Twitter are screaming have "no political instincts", despite being right on everything in the past month of American politics, Kamala sure did try to talk to the uncommitted in Michigan.

But what happened is she basically said nothing. You want a ceasefire, really? That's what Joe Biden also has said like five billion times. Everyone "wants" a ceasefire, but where is the actual commitment to policy such as: Ending aid to Israel. Letting the ICC court artest Netanyahu. Tarrifs on Israel. Or more.

Instead she is paying lip service to both sides with no actual policy. She's committed to defending Israel, wanting a ceasefire, two state solution, and while none of these seem contradictory on the surface they literally 100% are. A ceasefire will not happen when we give them the bombs and at most say "Do not enter a war with like 4 nations" to Israel. A two state solution is basically impossible.

If she wants the uncommitted voters she'd better cough up an actual commitment to something good. That is the point of uncommitted voters and protesting.

I think I've seen this around lately where people think protesting = just talking loudly at people so they see that you disagree- fuck no! It's about communicating leverage. And that's why no matter how many times Liberals see the left as "annoying" or "childish", "they're Russian ops!" even; we are still relevant because we actually showed our leverage and continue to do so despite the lipservice that Twitter insists should be enough.
 
Voting for someone is finding their policy acceptable.

Not committing your vote as a group is the only power the constituency has in America when it comes to the federal election. Here is a thought: If Kamala wants leftist votes, has she considered, I dunno...

Doing what they asked?

For people who people on Twitter are screaming have "no political instincts", despite being right on everything in the past month of American politics, Kamala sure did try to talk to the uncommitted in Michigan.

But what happened is she basically said nothing. You want a ceasefire, really? That's what Joe Biden also has said like five billion times. Everyone "wants" a ceasefire, but where is the actual commitment to policy such as: Ending aid to Israel. Letting the ICC court artest Netanyahu. Tarrifs on Israel. Or more.

Instead she is paying lip service to both sides with no actual policy. She's committed to defending Israel, wanting a ceasefire, two state solution, and while none of these seem contradictory on the surface they literally 100% are. A ceasefire will not happen when we give them the bombs and at most say "Do not enter a war with like 4 nations" to Israel. A two state solution is basically impossible.

If she wants the uncommitted voters she'd better cough up an actual commitment to something good. That is the point of uncommitted voters and protesting.

I think I've seen this around lately where people think protesting = just talking loudly at people so they see that you disagree- fuck no! It's about communicating leverage. And that's why no matter how many times Liberals see the left as "annoying" or "childish", "they're Russian ops!" even; we are still relevant because we actually showed our leverage and continue to do so despite the lipservice that Twitter insists should be enough.

I 100% agree with you, but what makes this tough is when you consider what is being leveraged. As others have said, a vote not for Kamala is effectively a vote for Trump- a candidate basically promising to take away civil liberties especially from POC and LGBTQ communities.

So what you are leveraging here by threatening to not vote Dems is the safety and wellbeing of those communities.

I agree this is representative of why American politics are so vitriolic; the two party system is just vile. I am not sure how to balance these two opposing forces.
 
No, it is the strongest factual argument. It is not intellectually bankrupt. The next President will either be Kamala Harris or convicted felon Donald Trump whether you like them or hate them both. A vote is not some endorsement of everything either one of them has ever done. It’s a choice of which direction the country should go in. The moral posturing over what is a binary choice is what got convicted felon Trump elected in the first place.

And that’s why binary politics doesn’t work, people.

It is going to the extreme end of binary politics that has landed the USA in the moral quagmire it is facing, I’m afraid.

Now, if there was a third choice…wait, there is?

There’s active efforts to stop her getting on the ballot in some states?

Oh dear.
 
Voting for someone is finding their policy acceptable.

I don't agree with this. Sometimes voting for someone is simply finding them preferable to the alternative. As I've said in other posts, harm reduction won't fix society's problems, but choosing not to participate in it can absolutely make things worse. In order to keep pushing forwards you've got to stop yourself from being dragged backwards.

And that’s why binary politics doesn’t work, people.

It is going to the extreme end of binary politics that has landed the USA in the moral quagmire it is facing, I’m afraid.

Now, if there was a third choice…wait, there is?

There’s active efforts to stop her getting on the ballot in some states?

Oh dear.

The reality at the moment (the material conditions, if you will) is that the U.S. IS a two-party state. I'd even agree with you to a large extent if you described it as a one-party state masquerading as a two-party state. I agree it sucks and I agree it would be nice if third parties were actually viable in any way, but they aren't. We play the hand we're dealt, not the one we want to have.
 
I'm not saying your wrong. I'm just saying that "a vote not being an endorsement" is peak America.
And that’s why binary politics doesn’t work, people.

It is going to the extreme end of binary politics that has landed the USA in the moral quagmire it is facing, I’m afraid.

Oh but it does work. Abraham Lincoln and Lyndon Baines Johnson were two of the USA’s most consequential presidents. They were both ardent White Supremacists, yet got overwhelming support from the black community. Why do you think that is?

(… and it worked. The rest is history)
 
I generally agree with Raikoulover on the simple game theory mechanics of it... but I do think we have to consider nuance, background, and that it does matter HOW protest is done, HOW pressure from the left is applied. Again, personalities.

We've already touched on it, but I do think comparing the situation Bill Clinton found himself in to what Kamala Harris finds herself in is the most illustrative of how the same lesser evil mechanics might not always play out the same way.

For Bill Clinton, you had opposition that was nearly identical to what he wanted to become politically (Reagan's dems also being neoliberals), and a set of mega donors that would be essentially identical with either party. You had traditional populism already waning compared to hot middle class interests, and a voter base that agreed with Reagan's party's economic project and wanted to see American enterprise run hot. If he lost, the consequence to him and the Democrats would be comparatively much less, letting the Republicans win again far more problematic for the unions/left than for the party.

In terms of ability to negotiate a dominant position against the left, Clinton had the strongest hand. "Where elst are y'all gonna go?"

For Kamala, the other side are literally perceived as a fascist end to Democracy. There are definitely those in the party and donors who have shown there ass, that they don't believe it or were too complacent to care enough to fight over Biden about it. But without question even the change in the ticket was forced through in part because significant faction of the Party Leadership AND it's wealthiest donors AND its media/upper class voter blocks genuinely, genuinely believe that the Republicans are fascists and a Republican win is unacceptable. Furthermore, she is coming in with a huge upsurge of enthusiasm, but also on the back of the frailest posture in tems of democratic legitimacy and party legitimacy. She is not given a mandate, she's forming it-- but a critical part of that mandate is that she's useless to EVERYONE (donors, party leadership, voters, her own legacy and career) if she loses. For everything she truly cares about, She MUST win.

Therefore, when it comes to negotiating with the left/the base/the protestors, Kamala's position is far, far weaker.

And the donors have a weaker oppositional position to the left as well, because a major set of them want to win EXCLUSIVELY WITH THE DEMOCRATS. Because they also have division amongst themselves, because despite being massively pro-Israel, many of them are also humanitarian filanthropists, and shit like what happened to the World Central Kitchen workers and similar orgs that ultimately work for them was unacceptable. And on top of all that, you have America's global allies, who all side with urgency towards resolution in the eyes of international law. The Democrats still do desperately want to be the party that lives up to legitimacy in leading a global order for and with its allies.

And finally, yes it does matter how protests happen. The left has been training, and grinding, and improving itself, and also inbedding itself. The Uncommitted Movement is not a Ralf Nader style outsider play, it is a very disciplined Bernie Sanders style insider play. You run INSIDE the party, you maintain discipline as a strong critique that's not disloyal to the Democrats, but applying immense framework within the party's framework. Ie. you go on MSNBC and to the ballot box with disciplined, strong, clear, and good faith demands. This DOES make those demands that much more potent, and that much more difficult for Kamala/Democrats to ignore at a human level. (which again, matters)

All of this is to say, that lesser of 2 evils voting is a disgustingly critical framework baked into our first-pass-the-post system, but that the context definitely matters, and will shape how that dynamic plays out.

The left should recognize that Kamala CANNOT run the Bill Clinton playbook, she IS too weak to do that, and protesters ARE RIGHT to push through demands now and continue to pressure Kamala/Walz in the future. That said, don't step on the neck, don't burn down the house-- we need to win together, so we need her to have an avenue to save face.

We know we're in a much stronger negotiating position; it's time for the wider movement to maintain disciplined resistance while we let good leaders make the case to the ticket behind the scenes, which will likely fall on far more empathetic ears that other recent Democratic leaders'.
 
Last edited:
The reality at the moment (the material conditions, if you will) is that the U.S. IS a two-party state. I'd even agree with you to a large extent if you described it as a one-party state masquerading as a two-party state. I agree it sucks and I agree it would be nice if third parties were actually viable in any way, but they aren't. We play the hand we're dealt, not the one we want to have.

The answer is obvious. Change the status quo. If everyone voted for a third party because they’re unhappy with the status quo, the status quo wouldn’t get in. Political pressure works - uncommitted is working, that’s why the Democrats are having to change their tone, if not their stance, on Gaza.

Oh but it does work. Abraham Lincoln and Lyndon Baines Johnson were two of the USA’s most consequential presidents. They were both ardent White Supremacists, yet got overwhelming support from the black community. Why do you think that is?
(… and it worked. The rest is history)

…But what was true then, in world without the internet and a basic understanding of human rights and a need to educate, isn’t compatible as an example with today’s issues.
 
Oh but it does work. Abraham Lincoln and Lyndon Baines Johnson were two of the USA’s most consequential presidents. They were both ardent White Supremacists, yet got overwhelming support from the black community. Why do you think that is?

(… and it worked. The rest is history)
...

Assuming the information is true (I've heard a lot about Lincoln, including that he only tried to free the slaves because it would get Britain to stay out of the war, but I haven't heard someone say he was a flat out white supremacist), this means that binary voting systems work because instead of giving power to a third party who isn't evil, it gives power to whichever of the two main party's twirls their mustache the least. Do you think that someone who supported the liberation of slaves would be less likely to do it then someone who didn't?
 
…But what was true then, in world without the internet and a basic understanding of human rights and a need to educate, isn’t compatible as an example with today’s issues.

No, it is still relevant. The choices are Kamala Harris may have some suboptimal policy positions or convicted felon Trump who has abhorrent policy positions (“wipe them out”) and is also promising the end of democracy and fascism.

In this exercise, abstaining on the basis of moral purity = fascism.

Assuming the information is true (I've heard a lot about Lincoln, including that he only tried to free the slaves because it would get Britain to stay out of the war, but I haven't heard someone say he was a flat out white supremacist), this means that binary voting systems work because instead of giving power to a third party who isn't evil, it gives power to whichever of the two main party's twirls their mustache the least. Do you think that someone who supported the liberation of slaves would be less likely to do it than someone who didn't?

I encourage you to read up on Lincoln. He was not fond of black people and did not give a damn about slavery.
 
The answer is obvious. Change the status quo. If everyone voted for a third party because they’re unhappy with the status quo, the status quo wouldn’t get in. Political pressure works - uncommitted is working, that’s why the Democrats are having to change their tone, if not their stance, on Gaza.

Ah yes, why didn't I think of that? Again, we play the cards we're dealt, not the ones we'd like to have.

Also for the record, everyone voting for a third party is still participating in electoralism and still a poor substitute for building mutual aid cooperatives and class solidarity, educating, and organizing.
 
Ah yes, why didn't I think of that? Again, we play the cards we're dealt, not the ones we'd like to have.

You say this…

Also for the record, everyone voting for a third party is still participating in electoralism and still a poor substitute for building mutual aid cooperatives and class solidarity, educating, and organizing.

…and then say this, which is basically arguing against your original point.

The cards you’re dealt are a two party system which does actually have room for a third party, or more, to take big chunks of the electorate out of those two parties. The more that happens, the better it is for overall representation.

You can have elections and also have mutual aid societies, class solidarity and better education. Nothing is stopping you except, apparently, the will to do so.
 
No, it is still relevant. The choices are Kamala Harris may have some suboptimal policy positions or convicted felon Trump who has abhorrent policy positions (“wipe them out”) and is also promising the end of democracy and fascism.

In this exercise, abstaining on the basis of moral purity = fascism.

My dude, voting for either party right now is supporting fascism, just not directly in America. You are literally funding the fascism of Israel’s latest military jolly which is also aiding and abetting a genocide.

I get the “least worst option” is Harris but that does not mean you can’t apply pressure on the democrats to do better if they retain the oval office.

At least stop funding fascism abroad?
 
You say this…



…and then say this, which is basically arguing against your original point.

The cards you’re dealt are a two party system which does actually have room for a third party, or more, to take big chunks of the electorate out of those two parties. The more that happens, the better it is for overall representation.

You can have elections and also have mutual aid societies, class solidarity and better education. Nothing is stopping you except, apparently, the will to do so.

I'm curious what alternative reality version of America you live in where progressives and leftists have enough political clout to mass vote for a 3rd party and swing an election, but I don't live there unfortunately. The only direction that would conceivably swing any election is straight into the maw of the Republican party.
 
instead of giving power to a third party who isn't evil
This is a bold assumption. As posters in this thread periodically allude to, a lot of the evil of power isn't down to specific people or entities being uniquely evil, but due to the systemic realities that transcend them. If a third party wins the U.S. election, it still has to confront the structure that gives the U.S. its power. A third party doesn't change American reliance on individually and nationally exploitative labor for raw materials for its power, American reliance on awful allies/co-operators like Israel and Saudi Arabia for indirect territorial control and influence, or American reliance on particularly-exploitative-by-the-West's-standards capitalism for its productivity and economic power. If a third party worked seriously to end all these things, it would seriously weaken the U.S.'s power and tank its own political popularity and survivability. The third party will probably not work seriously to end these things. It is easy for them to look less evil before they take the reins of power and have to grapple with these choices, but if that point comes and they gain that responsibility, they will quickly become easier to impeach.

Another obstacle to third parties is just the generally conservative nature of the American population, at least compared to the West. (DR beat me to the punch here, but I may as well keep this up.) A good many people, including a good many Democrats, find the Democratic party too far to the left for their tastes, as difficult as this idea is to perceive for myself and others. This of course doesn't mean that progressive policies cannot succeed, I don't mean to spread doom and gloom. But I struggle to imagine a third party farther left than the Democrats winning the U.S. election outright. In general, my default expectation is that a given third party will end up in between the two major parties, especially as the two major parties continue to polarize. There's various reasons; I already noted one, the general unpopularity of "extreme by U.S. political norm standards" parties making the "center by U.S. standards" more fertile ground, and I'll note another, the ability of less-controversial (even less-substantive) platforms to remove obstacles in the way of two common third party types, those based on one charismatic person or one specific issue. (The above analysis doesn't dismiss the idea that farther left third parties may be valuable for pressuring the Democrats. I hold no opinion on that. I'm just staying within the context of the original post, winning elections.)
 
Last edited:
I'm curious what alternative reality version of America you live in where progressives and leftists have enough political clout to mass vote for a 3rd party and swing an election, but I don't live there unfortunately. The only direction that would conceivably swing any election is straight into the maw of the Republican party.

I’m a Brit (as I’ve said often enough) and I am looking from the outside in and basing my views on the news I’ve read, trends abroad, etc.

Happily take your word for it, but god that is just thoroughly depressing.
 
No one votes for a third party because

1) You're throwing your vote away instead of voting for a party that at least shares some of your views.

2) Third parties in the US are kind of shit. Lol Libertarians.

If you convince a substantial percentage of the population to vote for a third party you'll just split the vote and lead to an unpopular candidate winning.

In 2010 in Maine the left leaning Independents and Democrats lost to the unpopular Republican candidate. The reason the Republican won is because left leaning voters split candidates and despite both Democrats and Independents preferring each other's candidate, the cartoonishly awful LePage won.

But there is a solution! Ranked Choice voting gives people the option to vote third party, and allows third parties to become viable without kneecapping their allies. Maine switched to Ranked Choice voting because the 2010 election pissed off a lot of people lol, but it's a wonderful band aid to the two party issue.

Maine also divides their electoral votes up instead of "winner take all". So despite being a solid blue state if you are a Republican you actually have a reason to go to the polls.

Fixing US politics will happen at the state level, not Federal. The states will have to make changes first before there is enough political willpower in Washington to break away from 2 parties. But as long as people look at the solutions realistically it is possible.
 
Last edited:
I get the “least worst option” is Harris but that does not mean you can’t apply pressure on the democrats to do better if they retain the oval office.

Yes, you are supposed to apply pressure to politicians. I think you are overlooking that everyone sees the double standard for what it is. If protesting a campaign rally 90 some odd days before the election is truly about electoral posturing, why do the protests only happen to Democrats and never happen to Republicans? Why aren’t they protesting a Trump rally?
 
my assumption is that there is at least one person running that is not evil.

If you read the paragraph after that single line you cherrypicked you'd see the point they're trying to make is that there are systemic problems that go much, much deeper than just the person running. Even if a genuinely "good" politician (ignoring the fact that everyone's got a different idea of what they would even be like) got into office, it's almost impossible for them to make actual progress without torpedoing their re-election chances and ensuring that whoever replaces them will undo everything they accomplished. There's extremely powerful perverse incentives there.

Like MrHands (fuck you for picking that name honestly) said, meaningful change won't come at a federal level.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top