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Im personally just getting real tired of Zama more than anything. Lose if you don’t have a ghost type is a really boring thing to play around and Zama going might finally let us kick out gambit
This doesn't come from of a place of anything negative towards, but why do people think zama is broken? Now is it great? OFC IT IS. Boosting both defense and offense simultaneously will always be a busted idea, but even with this it's not really broken to me. Here are some common counters and how Zama beats some before anyone says it to me Switch into body press easily and threatens status and stab moves ---> tera steel and sub to beat it consistently 1v1 burns and can flamethrower to death ---> needs tera fire status once again --> tera steel does almost lose the 1v1 but should beat it assuming max hp with helmet quad resist body press and gains hp with draining kiss ---> tera steel heavy slam can tank three crunches if defensive and threaten with status ---> tera dark or defensive crunch drop can live one crunch and threatens once again status even with sub thanks to infiltrator--- > OHKO with tera dark crunch and attack investment should be self-explanatory just stalemate each other, which is perfectly fine for the stall/ bulky offense that Clodisre finds itself in often
Offensively: are all Pokemon that although can't switch in 100% provide a consistent way to deal with offensively, with all these Pokemon using there typing, stats, abilities, and moves to threaten the big dog out
With all of this, I just can't see how it's broken. Now the most common argument I've found opposed to this is that it can stop some of its counter or just use them as pure setup fodder, as shown, but in my opinion, dam everything can do this. Kambit can become a flying type to stop tusk attempts of headlong, raging bolt becomes a fairy to stop kyruem ice beam ko. In a meta where everything can tera to win against its check, I don't know if this is enough to call for an outright ban. I'm open and to want to hear people's thoughts of how and why it's broken and counter my arugument.
Lets quickly go over the moves on the most Common Zamazenta Set
Zamazenta @ Leftovers
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 Spe
Tera Type: Steel
Jolly Nature
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Flex Slot
- Flex Slot
The most common moves run in the flex slotsare: Sub, Stone Edge, Crunch, Heavy Slam, Roar, Ice Fang
Tera can also be extremely flexible, with options like Tera Steel, Poison, Ghost, Fairy, Fire and more (For reference im not making this a ban/dnb zama argument, i just think this is an extremely dumb point to make)
Many, and i mean many, of these supposed counters you just listed are extremely weak to many of the common coverage moves that people run. Running Moltres to counter by burning it? Oops, it just got dropped to Stone Edge. Running Hatterene or Scarf Enam? Raw Heavy Slam for Hat and Tera + Slam for enam drops both. This is the point of coverage moves.
Some of the more popular mons, like toxic gliscor, also can just get beaten by zama since with tera it can become immune to toxic and set up in its face, and just beat it down 1v1 since gliscor lost roost, and things like gking can be crunched down (although it doesnt particularly like being twaved, if it has twave)
Also not to mention, some of these mons you listed are extremely niche. Fezandipiti is non-existant, Comfey is a niche HO mon at best, Ribombee is a webs exclusive mon, and often has to die/brought down to sash to get webs up, Pex is not really used outside of stall, geezing usage is extremely low.
While zama cant beat every single pokemon that resists, you cannot just go around spouting "But Type Chart!!!!" as if that dispels the fact it can still beat most of its checks depending on how the zama player tinkered with it
First of all, the comment I replied to was specifically claiming you were dead if you didn't have a Ghost on your team. So I pointed out this wasn't true and why. What I did was primarily to give a range of usable options for team building, which could cover a wide range of different team styles. That was the point of my comment. You seemed to miss that point.
Second, you are essentially assuming the best case scenario for Zama all at the same time with the coverage moves. This is an unrealistic ideal. Zama's coverage moves are limited by its 4 move slots and aren't STAB. With a bit of scouting, you should be able to determine what it can hit and which answer to put on your team. And with good teambuilding, you should be able to make a team that isn't weak to Fighting while being able to switch around potential coverage moves. There are two main Zama set archetypes, being ID/BP with less coverage and all out attacking with CC. I have made comments before on how to deal with this, but that wasn't my intention now. Your emphases on the ID set in a coverage move post is a bit funny to me because, in addition to more limited slot for coverage, it is also significantly weaker to Encore and phasing.
Another issue with hyperfocusing on potential coverage moves is Crunch exists. The Ghost types mentioned in the original comment was clearly stated to counter Fighting STAB. So that is what I addressed. But if we are assuming the best coverage, then that part isn't even true because every Zama would carry Crunch. But again, it can't actually carry all of Crunch, Stone Edge, Heavy Slam, Ice Fang, etc. Let alone utility moves like Roar and Sub, which are each great on it.
Then there is your complaint about niche mons. So what? Even niche mons I mentioned can be used in OU. There were still a wide variety of mons for different teams styles, including HO which would look for a more offensive solution and bulkier teams which would want defense. This was intentionally done by me. It wasn't a flaw in my argument. Furthermore, Fezendipiti and Comfey in particular are actually good and have a lot of anti-meta possibilities. They are probably underutilized. I don't agree at all with your assessment on either mon.
As for Rimbombee, it has ok special attacking stats, great speed, and access to the broken move Quiver Dance. While it is often mindlessly used for a suicide lead for Webs teams, that isn't all it can potentially do. And even as a lead on Webs teams, mindlessly leading it every game isn't necesarrily the only way to use it. You can switch things up and use a different lead before getting up Webs in a few turns. I won't get too much into it here because this isn't a Ribombee post, but I do think people haven't utilized the full potential this mon could have with QD and maybe TB Ground or something. Anyways... My initial reasoning for including it was that, if it has HP, it could switch into Fighting STAB since it double resists it and threatens Zama with like a Moonblast or something. Yes, it dies to a coverage like Heavy Slam or Stone Miss. But that's not really the point when you are switching in an offensive mon to scare it out. The opposing player would need to not only have that coverage on Zama, but also predict your switch in.
This doesn't come from of a place of anything negative towards, but why do people think zama is broken? Now is it great? OFC IT IS. Boosting both defense and offense simultaneously will always be a busted idea, but even with this it's not really broken to me. Here are some common counters and how Zama beats some before anyone says it to me Switch into body press easily and threatens status and stab moves ---> tera steel and sub to beat it consistently 1v1 burns and can flamethrower to death ---> needs tera fire status once again --> tera steel does almost lose the 1v1 but should beat it assuming max hp with helmet quad resist body press and gains hp with draining kiss ---> tera steel heavy slam can tank three crunches if defensive and threaten with status ---> tera dark or defensive crunch drop can live one crunch and threatens once again status even with sub thanks to infiltrator--- > OHKO with tera dark crunch and attack investment should be self-explanatory just stalemate each other, which is perfectly fine for the stall/ bulky offense that Clodisre finds itself in often
Offensively: are all Pokemon that although can't switch in 100% provide a consistent way to deal with offensively, with all these Pokemon using there typing, stats, abilities, and moves to threaten the big dog out
With all of this, I just can't see how it's broken. Now the most common argument I've found opposed to this is that it can stop some of its counter or just use them as pure setup fodder, as shown, but in my opinion, dam everything can do this. Kambit can become a flying type to stop tusk attempts of headlong, raging bolt becomes a fairy to stop kyruem ice beam ko. In a meta where everything can tera to win against its check, I don't know if this is enough to call for an outright ban. I'm open and to want to hear people's thoughts of how and why it's broken and counter my arugument.
here are my guesses as to why people think zama is broken:
most of its defensive answers are passive or don't slot in well on offense, so very little recourse against it exists on more offensive teams outside of "just outspeed lmao"
its stat spread screams "oh fuck off how is this even legal". it's just way too fat to be that fast and hit that hard at the same time, especially given that it can boost its main damage-dealing move by boosting its defense
box legendary
its ability to trash offense teams simply by existing makes offense mains think it's broken the same way stall mains think primarina and stored power are broken
it beats gambit and people have a genuine fetish for that mon. you know who you are. get help
This summer has been proving to us that Iron Moth is a dangerous mfer. Moth provides needed role compression for teams as a Fairy resist, Tspike absorber, and speed control. Its been popping up on many offenses used in OLT such as this one with Tera Dragon G-Fire by oldspicemike
Unless you have a specific check, players must be wary of Iron Moth because it will snowball out of control. With Tran usage being low, Iron Moth has been running non-Tera Blast options more frequently, opening the door for Gleam to hit Dragons, Psychic to smack Glimm and opposing Poison types, or E-Ball to snipe Garg/Ting team comps. A particular favorite set of mine is AoA Moth due to how expected Substitute is. You could get surprise kills or even sweep the entire team like in this replay.
I’ve spectated a bunch of OLT games where Moth cheats through half the team or wins off the spot. I expect a high rate of Moth checks like Ting-Lu or AV King to rise in usage. We may even see niche checks like Ceruledge.
No. 4 Lokix
Lokix @ Choice Band
Ability: Tinted Lens
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 132 HP / 252 Atk / 124 Spe
Adamant Nature
- First Impression
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Leech Life
Lokix has only been trending upwards in Cycle 2. CB Tinted Lens First Impression is one of the best tools for rkilling the numerous offensive juggernauts like Roaring Moon, Darkrai, Raging Bolt, Gouging Fire, Deo-S, and more. You might’ve seen Lokix on a core of Mola/Crown/Tusk, which was spammed by OLT and non-OLT players alike. Besides Lokix’s valuable priority, its typing is also surprisingly decent, letting it come in on Darkrai, Ting-Lu, Shadow Balls, and Deoxys-Speed. The spread above gives it a bit of bulk while outpacing standard Gliscors. Tera Bug Leech Life is surprisingly strong, doing big chunks to even the physically bulky threats in Gliscor, Mola, and Zama. Lokix still has issues like fraility and a SR weakness, but it is doing better than it was initially the last few months.
Next in line of Dark types spammed this OLT is Samurott-Hisui. Samu has become the go-to Spiker on teams as it can force progress without sacrificing offensive pressure. Outside of that, its access to Encore has only gotten better in the following months as stuff gets optimized and is bolstered by Samu’s Gambit defying Water/Dark typing. Samu boasts multiple sets, the most common being the standard Boots variant and the Sash lead. Spike Stacking HOs have resurfaced and Samu is the MVP of these builds. The only thing stopping Samu from getting up a spike or two a game is the 90% accuracy of Ceaseless. Assault Vest reworks Samu’s role into a bulky offensive spiker. Scarf provides a bit of speed control, and this set alone makes mons like Pult and Cinder hesitant to stay in to click U-Turn because of that being a possibility, letting you get up spikes anyways, but the scariest set imo is SD. After a single boost, it suddenly 2-shots targets like Corv, Skarm, Mola, and can OHKO Zapdos with Tera Dark/Water Ceaseless or Razor Shell. All this while remaining dangerous to faster pokes thanks to priority in the form of Sucker or Aqua Jet. One set I’m interested in trying is this.
Surf with Mystic Water lets you 2HKO Skarm and with Tera, 2HKO physdef Corv after rocks. It also cleanly OHKOs Tusk. You could also drop Encore for Knot to be an immediate asshole to Dozo.
Overall Samu has been consistent even in the face of its competition in Wogre.
Roaring Moon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Outrage
- Iron Head
- U-turn
Cycle 2 has been an experimental period for Roaring Moon, and it might be time to stop calling it Roaring Mid. The most notable innovation being Tera Ground. Ground has the benefit of boosting Earthquake to obscene levels, bypassing checks like Fairy Bolt, Barb Clef, T-Wave Zapdos, and Garg. Other options such a different Tera types or Roost and Sub have been utilized in OLT. bbeeaa made top cut last cycle with Choice Scarf Roaring Moon on this sick team https://pokepast.es/f7d0a349ddc3ee43.
Scarf Moon a cool speed control option that can clean with strong Outrages and spam Knock/U-Turn. Might be weak to Balance, but it can surprise some people, not on this team cause it’s very much public but maybe we’ll see more of it on other builds. Moon’s meta developments have been positive, making it more conspicuous and therefore, avoiding being one-dimensional.
No. 1 TheseFourMonsHere
This core right here has become the posterchild of slow bootless Balance teams during OLT. Often times it’s these four + a breaker + another wall. The idea is straight forward. Cover as many matchups as possible while having a response to everything and pivoting into the breaker of choice. Here’s a rundown.
Ace is the offensive pivot and hazard control option. Its often seen with Wisp, Sucker, or coverage.
Instead of the typical hazard stacking sets, Ting-Lu on this core runs Resttalk with Payback + EQ, acting as a Dondozo for special attackers while maintaining its health. Its synergy with Cinderace works really well because of its ability to Court Change Spikes off.
Slowking-Galar is a secondary special wall on the team, pivot, anti-weather control, and a progress maker with Future Sight. Due to the hazard removal from Cinder and Corv, Glowking can sometimes run other items like Black Sludge, Lagging Tail, or the OLT favorite, Assault Vest.
As a check to Tusk, Rilla, and Gambit, Corviknight is the final glue to this defensive core. Corviknight is also a pivot and Defogger. Despite being blanked by Ghold, Corv’s synergy with Ting-Lu and Cinder is perfect as they both pressure Ghold, plus the latter can force hazards onto the other side. One set I find cool is a mixed def Corv which with 140 spd EVs + SpD nature, 1v1s the infamous Sub-Tect Kyurem.
204 SpA Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 140+ SpD Corviknight: 99-117 (24.8 - 29.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
As a way to break teams, one of these two are the most common picks. Both of these have the added bonus of punishing the three best Spikers in the tier, Gliscor, Ting-Lu, and Samurott. Hydrapple has become a favorite of mine as a breaker that can switch into Ting-Lu/Garg and non-Play Rough Ogre. Sub-Tect Kyurem is another popular choice on these builds.
Aiding the defensive core is often one of these walls. Garg can set rocks or cheat games with its Curse set, while Dondozo is a mid ass mon, it helps check G-Fire, KG, and Moon. Thanks to Lefties, it doesn’t have to click Rest every second, so it gets to do its job. Mola can pass wishes and check physical threats as well.
While playtesting these teams, I found them to be very consistent with a strong defensive core and good horsepower accompanying them. Is this the new ZapLuKing? No, but OLT showed the new possible routes Balance can go in the future. I’ll be looking forward to Cycle 3.
The problem with Zama is the fact that it can run so many things, and you have to tip toe a lot around it to find out what it has.
Do you switch in Moltres and find out the bad way that it has Stone Edge?
Do you switch in Fairies and eat a Heavy Slam?
Do you think TWave Ghold is enough only to find that it runs Sub?
Do you set up Body Press Skarm with tera or it will just Roar it away?
Same with Darkrai. The problem isn't just their raw power. It's the fact that they both have extremely good stats and extremely good moves to break apart balance, and your only choice to response to them is to out offense them.
This is why I think both of them are terrible for the metagame.
Tier is generally ok. There is room for improvement, but I find the more skilled and prepared player wins far more often than not (and more than they did some months ago, too).
Ogerpon-W is no longer a top suspect candidate. Entry is limited, soft checks to it have risen, and it forces the issue in a lot of games to an alarming, but not entirely broken, degree
Darkrai is still suspect worthy, but I don’t think it’s breaking the game wide open or mandating immediate action. I think it fits on fewer teams now than before and I think the recent emphasis on speed or more extreme bulky structures on the other side of the spectrum have contained it a little bit. I don’t think a ban would be bad, but maybe not necessary now
Gouging Fire is kind of dumb. Like think about facing it later in games when item and Tera aren’t disclosed. Coming up with safe and optimal lines aren’t easy. I view it as a little cheesy and undesirable. I would support an eventual re-suspect. I think it’s set mix rebounded to a scary degree
Zamazenta shouldn’t go anywhere right now. By definition, I find it close to suspect worthy, but I do think it’s able to be checked by multiple things on teams. And it doesn’t always punish things enough with the right item/Tera/coverage to the point that games are broken open. It does so much as it’s such a presence while being defensive glue and speed — it feels like it’s too good almost, but I honestly don’t chalk it up to being broken at the moment
Kyurem remains a nuisance. Some people called it mid, but I disagree. I wanted it banned earlier this year and ever since Volc went, I wanted to discuss it again. It thankfully didn’t take off a ton in WCOP, but OLT shows how nasty it can be. This and gouging are atop my list currently. Very hard to counter.
So the tricky thing about Zamazenta, that inclines me to say it should be a much later suspect if given one at all, is the fact that it's a very effective blanket check and source of role compression in current OU. This is not me arguing "Broken should check broken" necessarily, but that there's a lot more pros and cons to using Zamazenta compared to tailoring a mon like Kyurem or Gouging Fire to just crack whatever your team needs kicked in the shins the most even if it's very good in its own right.
I can't quite judge if Zamazenta itself is properly busted or if the issue is threat saturation that it helps with but becomes extremely common in turn as a result. Like, if teams didn't have to run answers to Gouging Fire, Kyurem, Raging Bolt, Darkrai, Iron Moth, Roaring Moon, etc (not all of these are suspect worthy, but are relevant enough to contribute to a count), would Zamazenta be more powerful due to easier teambuilding for the coverage it declines/no longer needs, or would it be more manageable since teams could run better/less-overloaded checks to it? Zama in this respect almost feels to me like a less severe inversion of GSC Snorlax: Where Snorlax is an absurdly centralizing Top-Dog that is kept because it checks other mons that would be unhealthy without its influence, Zamazenta is a Top-Dog that is easing teambuilding in a meta with an extremely large threat list that it mitigates but doesn't wholly keep in check.
With stuff like Kyurem, Gouging, and Moon, they feel like they have limited defensive contribution to the tier that goes deeper than "they're hard to kill before they kill/sweep you," and the Suspect debate primarily revolves around if they overdo it to an extent the voter base deems banworthy. Zamazenta brings actual defensive utility beyond "hard to kill Wallbreaker" given its decent-but-not-spectacular breaking power outside of Boosted IronPress.
tl;dr Zama should be later because even if it's overtuned, it's not the culprit for the CURRENT meta being insufferable and thus not the first nail to hammer down.
The most consistent anti Zama tech I've seen is bulky Ghold with Covert Cloak, which also helps due to the uptick of Nuzzle and Salt Cure. The dog can feel extremely overwhelming at times, but Ghold, Pult, and IVal feel like there's just enough for me to not call it broken in the context of the rest of the tier.
Kyu and Goug are the highest on my 1450-1550 radar. Kyu has maintained strength consistently and Gouging I feel was so hurt by its DNB that people put it on fraudwatch too early and stopped exploring. I dunno if I specifically want anything removed though.
great post and analysis, i just want to give credit where due because this 4 mon core is first successfully used by Blimax the goat View attachment 657787 View attachment 657788
but guess whos the earliest adopter of this god combo when it had just dropped? circa mid spl xv
none other... they call me smogon Gregg Popovich
Kyurem remains a nuisance. Some people called it mid, but I disagree. I wanted it banned earlier this year and ever since Volc went, I wanted to discuss it again. It thankfully didn’t take off a ton in WCOP, but OLT shows how nasty it can be. This and gouging are atop my list currently. Very hard to counter.
I’m not sold on gouging being broken, since while I never thought it was fraudulent I do think it struggles into offensive pressure from mons like lando-t enough to where it could be fine ish, but I think gouging needs time because a lot of the mons that can semi consistently beat it lose to kyurem. But kyurem has been here long enough and has definitely been the most obnoxious mon in the tier as of late. Time we give the bittercold dragon itself the boot I think because it is really starting to warp the meta around it to an unhealthy degree with all these new innovations. Definitely the most broken thing in the tier right now.
I tried Cycle 2 of OLT (and failed miserably, worst decision I have taken this month, fuck that untour) and changed my views on Kyurem after the Sub Protect set successfully frozen my Tera Steel Latios and later Sdef Corviknight almost every time I faced it. Now I would vote Ban if it was suspected. Its still not on my priority list, Waterpon, Darkrai and Gouging Fire are all way above it, but if Kyurem suspect happens, it no longer counts with my Do Not Ban vote.
Meanwhile, Zamazenta is one of the most healthy and best for the meta Mons out there, not broken at all and checks many broken things while failing hard vs bulkier playstyles.
I tried Cycle 2 of OLT (and failed miserably, worst decision I have taken this month, fuck that untour) and changed my views on Kyurem after the Sub Protect set successfully frozen my Tera Steel Latios and later Sdef Corviknight almost every time I faced it. Now I would vote Ban if it was suspected. Its still not on my priority list, Waterpon, Darkrai and Gouging Fire are all way above it, but if Kyurem suspect happens, it no longer counts with my Do Not Ban vote.
Meanwhile, Zamazenta is one of the most healthy and best for the meta Mons out there, not broken at all and checks many broken things while failing hard vs bulkier playstyles.
This really needs to be discussed more, specifically the Freeze part. To my knowledge council doesn't like the "Kyurem freeze is broken" because its 10%, but like thats just not how it pans out. Kyurem is a freeze spam wallbreaker. Thats it. It pressures defensive cores to a degree where 1 freeze usually puts you in a game winning position. "But its 10%" this is bullshit everybody knows 10% is non negligable I mean look at ogerpon ivy cudgel shit crits so often, draco and leaf storm miss all the time too. Over the course of many games kyurem feeze IS inevitable and its not like a 10% chance that adds a little value like raging bolt thunderbolt para. Kyurem is a very difficult mon to defensively answer, taking up multiple pokemon to do so. A freeze can ruin that entire defensively core meant to deal with kyuren, unless your offense or HO u can literally and very realistifally auto lose to a freeze on Glowking for example and this shit happens all the fucking time. Please stop saying 10% is too low, the value you get off that 10% winning the game is TOO GOOD. We all know 10% is non negligable too any argument saying otherwise is just incorrect.
This really needs to be discussed more, specifically the Freeze part. To my knowledge council doesn't like the "Kyurem freeze is broken" because its 10%, but like thats just not how it pans out. Kyurem is a freeze spam wallbreaker. Thats it. It pressures defensive cores to a degree where 1 freeze usually puts you in a game winning position. "But its 10%" this is bullshit everybody knows 10% is non negligable I mean look at ogerpon ivy cudgel shit crits so often, draco and leaf storm miss all the time too. Over the course of many games kyurem feeze IS inevitable and its not like a 10% chance that adds a little value like raging bolt thunderbolt para. Kyurem is a very difficult mon to defensively answer, taking up multiple pokemon to do so. A freeze can ruin that entire defensively core meant to deal with kyuren, unless your offense or HO u can literally and very realistifally auto lose to a freeze on Glowking for example and this shit happens all the fucking time. Please stop saying 10% is too low, the value you get off that 10% winning the game is TOO GOOD. We all know 10% is non negligable too any argument saying otherwise is just incorrect.
This 100%. Subtect Kyu is literally just an excuse to fish for freezes with kyu using its perfect coverage, and I think its telling its as powerful a set as it is. I've beaten every variant of this I've come across this OLT but whenever I see it (or even any regular Kyu set) I clench because I know if it gets a freeze my chance of winning becomes way less. Literally such a cancer set and this alone should get it suspected; or honestly at this point just qb it given how controversial it has been the last 4-5 months. Want to note as well that it takes advantage of you not knowing which Kyurem set its going to be, and so you can prep for specs only for the kyurem to throw out a sub or dd. The worst part is it does nothing for the tier, which isn't an argument I take much stock in as even if it provided a lot like Volc it would still be broken, but at least Volc could fit on defensive cores.
Gouging Fire I'm not sold on at all but I'm down for a suspect (AFTER KYU; please god doing it before kyurem is literally just throwing looking at the previous suspect results for this). This feels like the same thing happening before the previous suspect for it, where people get suddenly worked up except its revealed its actually not broken, and this has honestly happened for a lot of mons, like even Darkrai, where its the FotM mon thats controversial and that dies down. It's a good mon and I think defensive sets are cool and underexplored but the problem is that the best defensive mons in the tier are very strong into it (scor, mola, garg, ting lu, zama, even molt) and on balance you often stack these. It technically can beat one of these mons with the right set but there's no way it covers all of them and that's ignoring the fact that its really hazard weak and either needs to relies on boots/lefties to take advantage of its bulk or go booster for power. Its an obviously good mon but I'm not sold on it and would prob not vote ban (at least rn) and I don't think its Kyu level at all.
Waterpon is still a cracked broken mon and actively shapes any balance team you create. There are so many balance teams I see and I instantly know a very common Waterpon set that 6-0s it. I think Waterpon is still the second most broken mon in the tier but tbh this thing is likely not going away or being looked at anytime soon and I've accepted that, especially because people hate Mola and it really annoys it (even if Mola actively helps structures vs Waterpon)
This. I can't count how many times I have been freeze-fished by Kyurem. It has both Ice Beam and Freeze Dry, so it isn't uncommon for it to get a freeze in several games.
Zamazenta shouldn’t go anywhere right now. By definition, I find it close to suspect worthy, but I do think it’s able to be checked by multiple things on teams. And it doesn’t always punish things enough with the right item/Tera/coverage to the point that games are broken open. It does so much as it’s such a presence while being defensive glue and speed — it feels like it’s too good almost, but I honestly don’t chalk it up to being broken at the moment
Somehow, I don't quite agree with this. This is the kind of mon that I always find to require at min 2 checks to scout out what it actually wants to do (often even 3, especially against offense teams that can put a lot of pressure onto BO).
I guess in a sense, I'm really adamant about tiering action needed for the big three Uber drop-offs: Kyurem, Zamazenta and Darkrai.
Zamn and Krai are the prime examples of speed theorem. They have a good movepool plus a good speed to achieve whatever they want to do, and they can shift a lot to adapt to the metagame.
Kyurem is in some way, the same. Its 317 max speed isn't too overwhelming, but it is fast enough to overwhelm a lot of common balance mons (Tusk, Ghold, etc) while having a devastating coverage against most targets in OU.
Gouging Fire, however, doesn't feel banworthy for me IMO. Its speed tier isn't really great unless it runs Jolly, but then it will miss out on some good damage. The only time I have ever found Gouging hard to deal is in Sun, but I don't think a Sun sweeper is that bad to guarantee its position in Uber.
This really needs to be discussed more, specifically the Freeze part. To my knowledge council doesn't like the "Kyurem freeze is broken" because its 10%, but like thats just not how it pans out. Kyurem is a freeze spam wallbreaker. Thats it. It pressures defensive cores to a degree where 1 freeze usually puts you in a game winning position. "But its 10%" this is bullshit everybody knows 10% is non negligable I mean look at ogerpon ivy cudgel shit crits so often, draco and leaf storm miss all the time too. Over the course of many games kyurem feeze IS inevitable and its not like a 10% chance that adds a little value like raging bolt thunderbolt para. Kyurem is a very difficult mon to defensively answer, taking up multiple pokemon to do so. A freeze can ruin that entire defensively core meant to deal with kyuren, unless your offense or HO u can literally and very realistifally auto lose to a freeze on Glowking for example and this shit happens all the fucking time. Please stop saying 10% is too low, the value you get off that 10% winning the game is TOO GOOD. We all know 10% is non negligable too any argument saying otherwise is just incorrect.
i think the main factor here is that it isn't 10% because kyurem gets way more opportunities per game to freeze than just one. if it gets to attack with freeze moves twice, it's a combined chance of 19%. three times, it's 27%, four times is 34%, and so on. this type of thing usually isn't a problem because of the nature of freeze moves—the mons that run them are more often than not running them for offensive ice coverage purposes and therefore don't spam them due to opportunity-cost reasons that i'm too lazy to explain, and those that do have them as stab are mostly not good because ice is a shit defensive typing. there are a few exceptions who can afford to spam non-stab ice moves and have the longevity to freeze-fish, but these are usually outweighed by better and more consistent options. for example, you could freeze-fish with glowking or serene grace blissey, but they have so many more useful things they can do that are more consistent so they're really not a problem. these mons also have some trouble immediately taking advantage of the freeze turns they gain—the way they make progress isn't massively bolstered by a single free turn like a wallbreaker or fast setup sweeper would be, and swapping out to a teammate who can take advantage of said turns more easily is kind of a crapshoot because you've already sacrificed one turn's momentum getting them out there.
kyurem, though, is different. it can freely spam its freeze moves with little opportunity cost damage-output-wise because they're stab and it's got the longevity to fish for freeze while being a genuinely good mon outside of that. and since the freeze moves just so happen to be its main damage-dealing tools you'll see at least one of them on damn near every kyurem set. unlike almost every other viable mon, kyurem tends to use at least three freeze moves in a given game, so it has a very outsized overall freeze chance compared to everything else. i do think freeze is the real bump in the bowling alley when it comes to kyurem—the mon itself is broken outside of that, but freeze just adds another layer of bullshit that pushes it over the edge of tolerability. the status condition itself is fine.
This really needs to be discussed more, specifically the Freeze part. To my knowledge council doesn't like the "Kyurem freeze is broken" because its 10%, but like thats just not how it pans out. Kyurem is a freeze spam wallbreaker.
Kyurem is notable for this in particular because of its ability to click freeze-dry so many times in a game when running the subtect set. In some sense, this makes the freeze aspect suck less, because you kinda have to expect it to happen and unlike your run-of-the-mill fast frail offensive mon clicking ice beam once and getting a freeze, a kyurem freeze really should be something you’re making an effort to account for.
The problem with this logic is, of course, that even without this threat, kyurem is already insanely hard to account for. If getting several attempts to fish for a freeze were something that you had to let Kyurem do, that’d be one thing. But it’s something Kyurem gets to do against everything except HO and offense teams, and sometimes gets a few attempts even against those. Little to nothing absolutely demands that you provide offensive counterplay to it like Kyurem does, while still providing significant constraint even to that offensive counterplay.
oh, sorry if that was the impression my post gave. i tried to make it clear that the status itself isn't a problem, it's just the thing that makes kyurem the biggest problem in the tier instead of just a regular everyday problem
everyone, please make sure to not treat any future kyurem suspect as a referendum on freeze as a status condition. keep in mind kyurem's capability of winning games via freezing, but don't make your decision based on whether or not you think the status condition is a problem
yes, however we should ban mons that spam freeze chances constantly WHILE wallbreaking / netting big progress, this makes an already insanely strong mon have an RNG element that genuinely doesn't have counterplay, and as above post say, you can spam freeze dry over and over and the likelihood of 1 freeze is not unlikely, its literally the equivalent of using scald once and getting a burn. This wouldnt be such an issue if kyurems value of freezing a defensive mon wasnt so high, the value is insanely high off 1 freeze because it takes soo many pokemon to defensively and sometimes even to offensively handle kyurem, 1 freeze typically just ends games and its happened in many MANY olt games I've been watching.
Edit: idk why i quote replied to buzzwhole to just say "yeah", im on 4 hours of sleep some1 help me
Kyurem is notable for this in particular because of its ability to click freeze-dry so many times in a game when running the subtect set. In some sense, this makes the freeze aspect suck less, because you kinda have to expect it to happen and unlike your run-of-the-mill fast frail offensive mon clicking ice beam once and getting a freeze, a kyurem freeze really should be something you’re making an effort to account for.
The problem with this logic is, of course, that even without this threat, kyurem is already insanely hard to account for. If getting several attempts to fish for a freeze were something that you had to let Kyurem do, that’d be one thing. But it’s something Kyurem gets to do against everything except HO and offense teams, and sometimes gets a few attempts even against those. Little to nothing absolutely demands that you provide offensive counterplay to it like Kyurem does, while still providing significant constraint even to that offensive counterplay.
Yeah the problem isn't that 'freeze' in a vacuum is broken, because it kinda is but whatever, the problem is that Kyurem literally gets away with spamming moves with freeze chances thanks to its insane power, solid bulk, and getting freeze dry so it doesnt even need to worry about waters. It's only 10% in theory bc especially w sets like subtect its clicking freeze dry A LOT and it adds up very quickly. Something like Darkrai CAN proc freeze but isnt clicking ice coverage nearly as much because it frankly doesn't have perfect coverage in two moves like Kyurem. I don't need to worry about freeze with Darkrai, and if it gets it, then I got lucked and whatever, but Kyurem is always stacking the odds against you with how often it freezes things, and freeze IS broken and uncompetitive. I don't care to see it banned (although realistically there is literally no downside in removing it from showdown) but the thing that abuses the broken status mechanic is 100% going to be broken.
however we should ban mons that spam freeze chances constantly WHILE wallbreaking / netting big progress, this makes an already insanely strong mon have an RNG element that genuinely doesn't have counterplay, and as above post say, you can spam freeze dry over and over and the likelihood of 1 freeze is not unlikely, its literally the equivalent of using scald once and getting a burn. This wouldnt be such an issue if kyurems value of freezing a defensive mon wasnt so high, the value is insanely high off 1 freeze because it takes soo many pokemon to defensively and sometimes even to offensively handle kyurem, 1 freeze typically just ends games and its happened in many MANY olt games I've been watching.
Edit: idk why i quote replied to buzzwhole to just say "yeah", im on 4 hours of sleep some1 help me
Yeah considering 1 freeze can sometimes mean the Kyurem players just win its 100% a problem, especially bc what is getting frozen is likely your Kyurem counterplay.
My opinion on Kyurem is that it has crossed my line due to the increased use of set diversity. DD on it was whatever to me because modern teams tend to have physical answers anyway. Sub/Protect doesn't even bother me as much as DD sets because you can just ruin it with Encore or Phasing. But all the stuff Kyurem can do in totality makes it kinda obnoxious to account for every last thing when it already had borderline broken wallbreaking ability in the first place. Some of the mixed sets disgust me. I think it is rapidly becoming too much of a strain on the builder. Kyurem definitely moved to top 3 for me at minimum. Maybe 600+ stat Ice Dragons are just dumb?
As an aside, I also don't like how its Freeze dry spam invalidated a lot of bulky waters that would otherwise have been good answers to these Ice moves. This wasn't anything close to ban worthy by itself, and neither is the Freeze Dry move, but I do think it would be healthier seeing the single biggest spammer of it gone. Everything else that could spam this move would come with way more downsides. This would make it much easier to build around different bulky waters besides Prim and Fat Luvdisc.
One thing I don't agree with, though, is that Freeze breaks this mon. Yes, Freeze fishing on Kyurem is obnoxious. Yes, Freeze as a mechanic is objectively broken. Run a Covert Cloak. Every week I see people complaining about hax from mons like Darkrai or whoever. Cloak counters the hax issue, counters Garg, and does a bunch of other things. It's a great item that is much more versatile and useful than many realize.
is too good. There's specs, 4a boots, subtect and dd loaded dice. All of which are overwhelming and specifically subtect is stupid since you get to fish for freezes while with sub you get a free turn to attack
is ok. Sure dd+booster/boots with prob morning sun is overwhelming at times but imo it's quite manageable.
is imo what is holding this meta from becoming entirely offense related due to its bulk and speed and may not always have the tera needed for the battle
same thing as but it's more of making stall niche as fuck(nothing likes stab dark pulse)
I was also wrong about cos hazards in this economy are heavily inflated so yea. Also imo sd sets have fallen significantly due to and other soft checks and u turn seems to be rising as a offensive pivot
Anyways, here are a bit of my thoughts. (I am an AG/ Ubers main)
This thing can run a billion gajillion sets, from iron defense body press, choice band and boots, not even accounting the many variations it can have in the sets on iron defense such as sub, ice fang or other moves over crunch, and on band zama we also can use stone edge and more. Yes, this thing can easily stop many physical setup sweepers with a single iron defense and its high speed + bulk, and yes, it does force many teams to use stuff like moltres and ghosts, but at the same time, zama keeps many other threats such as gambit and darkrai in check. So if we ban zama, darkrai and gambit might just be next…
110 speed isn’t that fast by modern standards, but this thing does get that 1.2 attack boost from the wellspring mask and can run coverage to deal with the usual checks. This thing also got the tendency to shit on fatter teams that lack Amoonguss or some other check and just outputs massive damage with Tera Ivy cudgel, but imo it’s manageable on many teams with faster mons like moon and rilla being able to check it.
nasty plot 3 attacks, expert belt 4 attacks, they are all viable sets. This thing is incredibly fast with 125 speed being able to outpace ribombee and has tons of set variety with its moves too, however, this thing is still manageable offensively with zama and val or defensively with gambit if it’s not running focus miss, and without sludge bomb primarina. It’s not too high bulk also leaves it vulnerable to revenge killing attempts from espeed and thunderclap, or sucker gambit at lower health ranges. If zama leaves, this thing will definitely become broken imo.
mixed sets decimate my favorite playstyle in OU, dragon dance can end games and specs is really hard to switch into, especially with glowking support and blizzard.
It’s mid speed tier still allows for offensive counterplay with stuff like zamazenta and val and stuff, while defensively gambit can also deal with it somewhat along with primarina and balloon tran.
so far oger is a bit broke but that’s just my bias as a stall enjoyer.
My opinion on Kyurem is that it has crossed my line due to the increased use of set diversity. DD on it was whatever to me because modern teams tend to have physical answers anyway. Sub/Protect doesn't even bother me as much as DD sets because you can just ruin it with Encore or Phasing. But all the stuff Kyurem can do in totality makes it kinda obnoxious to account for every last thing when it already had borderline broken wallbreaking ability in the first place. Some of the mixed sets disgust me. I think it is rapidly becoming too much of a strain on the builder. Kyurem definitely moved to top 3 for me at minimum. Maybe 600+ stat Ice Dragons are just dumb?
As an aside, I also don't like how its Freeze dry spam invalidated a lot of bulky waters that would otherwise have been good answers to these Ice moves. This wasn't anything close to ban worthy by itself, and neither is the Freeze Dry move, but I do think it would be healthier seeing the single biggest spammer of it gone. Everything else that could spam this move would come with way more downsides. This would make it much easier to build around different bulky waters besides Prim and Fat Luvdisc.
One thing I don't agree with, though, is that Freeze breaks this mon. Yes, Freeze fishing on Kyurem is obnoxious. Yes, Freeze as a mechanic is objectively broken. Run a Covert Cloak. Every week I see people complaining about hax from mons like Darkrai or whoever. Cloak counters the hax issue, counters Garg, and does a bunch of other things. It's a great item that is much more versatile and useful than many realize.
Cloak is harder to fit on teams then ever, considering that Tusk and removal in general is increasingly relegated to offense moreso then balance or bulkier styles. Especially considering the ease with which mons like Hamurott set up spikes, as well, giving up boots in this scenario to counter Kyurem's rng hax bullshit is a super hard ask, especially considering that my Tinkaton has to choose between not getting frozen by Kyurem or being forced to eat maybe 25% of spikes damage that Hamurott clicked while its checking Kyu, making it much worse.
Switch into body press easily and threatens status and stab moves ---> tera steel and sub to beat it consistently 1v1
burns and can flamethrower to death ---> needs tera fire
status once again --> tera steel
does almost lose the 1v1 but should beat it assuming max hp with helmet
quad resist body press and gains hp with draining kiss ---> tera steel heavy slam
can tank three crunches if defensive and threaten with status ---> tera dark or defensive crunch drop
can live one crunch and threatens once again status even with sub thanks to infiltrator--- > OHKO with tera dark crunch and attack investment
should be self-explanatory
just stalemate each other, which is perfectly fine for the stall/ bulky offense that Clodisre finds itself in often
are all Pokemon that although can't switch in 100% provide a consistent way to deal with offensively, with all these Pokemon using there typing, stats, abilities, and moves to threaten the big dog out
is ok. Sure dd+booster/boots with prob morning sun is overwhelming at times but imo it's quite manageable.
is imo what is holding this meta from becoming entirely offense related due to its bulk and speed and may not always have the tera needed for the battle
same thing as 
cos hazards in this economy are heavily inflated so yea. Also imo sd sets have fallen significantly due to 