Unpopular opinions

[Yung Dramps]

This post and all of these "long game unfinished" posts are putting the cart before the horse.

90% of the people who got into Pokemon fangames in the last 4ish years don't even know that Rejuvenation exists. Because no one covers it anymore.

90% of people who play romhacks nowadays don't use Smogon Forums. They don't go on pokecommunity, and god no they do not find RebornEvo. They exclusively find new games through Youtube content.

Reborn didn't "work", by the way. Reborn actually is a far worse game than Rejuvenation and that's the reason why people who had interest in Reborn still care about Rejuvenation. Reborn after many of its updates ended up having a great tileset, good unique mechanics, a good artstyle and good taste in music- but its story was bad, and the game's difficulty went off the rails towards being mainly unfun towards the last third of the game. I say this as someone who actually did slog through terrible moments such as listening to an annoying character's dialogue in my head over and over, doing a fetch quest to be able to fight the Fighting gym leader, who's gimmick is practically luck-based and I had to reconstruct my team to do it without IVs.

Reborn is a game that falls off extremely hard as it goes on. I will say the beginning of it is one of the coolest bits of any Pokemon game, with the limitation of options the player gets meaning they actually have to try- Reborn is one of the best Pokemon fangames when it comes to getting the player to remake their team, and rewarding them for doing so. But as the world opens up it's more about convenience and the vibes of the game goes from this cool, atmospheric broken city, to just mainly normal Pokemon.

Rejuvenation in a way is actually fulfilling things that Reborn was supposed to do but with an actually coherent plot and game, while Reborn was always messy as fuck to begin with, and a way better difficulty curve.

Saying that Rejuvenation's plot is inherently not well-written because the game is long is just a bad take. Many of the best stories ever are absolutely long as fuck- is Rejuvenation one of the best stories ever?? No, but it's Pokemon as a series that is one of the few RPG series to have plotlines that aren't over 50 hours minimum. Reborn and Rejuvenation are just the length of normal RPGs.

All of y'all are bringing smoke for a project trying to reverse engineer a justification when the reality is that it's not about your thoughts on the game, it's that people don't make content on these games anymore. Rejuvenation isn't the only story game that isn't talked about much, and while I dislike Unbound there's a reason Radical Red got far more coverage- it has that streamable quality.

The idea of a "Speedrun mode" is literally just anti-games-as-art. Games should not be designed around convenience, they should be designed to elicit the feelings that the developer wants. Story games should be story games, and if the developer wants the game to be about the story, why would they do a "Speedrun mode" so that people will skip most of the work?

Redesigning games to appeal to streamers is such a cringe concept and it's one of the flaws with modern gaming, frankly. I'm not one of those people who thinks modern games are getting worse, I think there is a lot of variety in the genres that weren't there in the early 8th and majority of the 7th gens, where it was mainly just military shooters and other varieties of shooters. A 2023 couldn't happen a decade ago. But honestly, this touches on something that's making the indie game market less appealing to me as a potential maker; games being designed around going viral and being streamable will always win out over the games that are mainly singleplayer and often make people cry.

Lethal Company is a cool game, but compare its success to the likes of Rain World, where it took years and a DLC in order to be a small niche title with any fan community, despite being one of the most immersive games ever- an experience that will stick with players for decades. I think game design is in a war right now between games that try to stick with people forever (good!) and games designed for players to forget the experience the next day, but come back for their next dopamine hit.

Games like Radical Red are cool, but ultimately their main purpose is streamer fodder to be used by streamers so that their thousands of viewers can get their dopamine hit (Where they will forget everything the next day).

IMO this entire discussion is a microcosm of what the scene of developing is becoming. Trying to make a 100 hour campaign game with a story you want people to remember for free? But what if not all of the story is important! How will streamers stream this??

Then onward to do challenge run 42 that will be forgotten the day after completion, or watching Youtube/Streaming in a week for accumulative many hours, or many games where literally all of the time you spent will be forgotten.

We should support games that are actually aiming to be ambitious and try to make an experience that will stick with people, and not reverse engineer a justification for why the games failed to get traction when the actual reason is much more cynical than "Some people didn't wanna replay it", considering the majority of the audience doesn't know the game exists.

I understand if what I'm describing sounds pretty dramatic, but at the minimum I just want people to recognize the amount of effort that goes into this, and how it isn't "the developers fault" that they started making a game close to the end of an era. Rejuvenation is one of the last remnants of that era, and most of the fangames we get nowadays don't bother with a new campaign; people are spending hundreds of hours remaking Kanto. Again. In another engine (Essentials).

If you want one of the other few story games to come out in the last few years, there's a cool fangame I played called "Pokemon: The First Journey"; the premise is that the game is about Professor Oak in Kanto when he was young, and includes a lot of fanon lore about what Pokemon are and how they work. It's a decently lengthed game, about 15ish hours I think, and it has some interesting gameplay since Pokemon Centers don't exist. I don't like all of the lore, but the lore leads to an extremely interesting ending that is supposed to lead to the other game the creator is making. It is as I just said, another person spending hundreds of hours remaking Kanto, but instead of in the way that Pokemon Infinite Fusion just remade Kanto but again to fulfill a gameplay gimmick, the way this game plays through Kanto is mainly in reverse, and it's used for story context- it doesn't end up feeling much like a Kanto game, only maybe the last third can feel like it moreso when the areas open up. IMO it justifies that work.

And the game is done, so if you want a complete Pokemon story experience, there you go. I wish we got more games like these, because this is a game that actually really sticks with me; I'm not gonna act like it's some high-class writing, but what I'm getting at overall is that it doesn't need to be high-class writing to be something to stick with you. I recommend anyone who likes to get an interesting take on Pokemon lore to try it.

View attachment 661131

All these comments you've been making are way, WAY better-articulated versions of what I said in my first post about "bad incentives" in online content creation potentially having a role in why the kinds of Pokemon fangames I want to see aren't being made or getting anywhere, so thanks for that a great deal.

I think you've also touched on why Radical Red bothers me so much. I'm can't say it's totally devoid of merit, boss design at its level is its own form of art, but its view of the Pokemon setting is just too... I guess utilitarian is the right word? It's the same reason why I can't get into most 2d Marios, the world is so bland, extraneous and secondary to the experience that it's practically just pure gameplay, which in a world filled with 2d platformers that excel at both just doesn't cut it anymore. RR could've easily been Extreme Emerald or Bodacious Black and nothing about its design goals would've changed whatsoever. This would be completely fine if it were just treated as a glorified tech demo, a stepping stone for better experiences down the road; instead it's the most popular Pokemon fangame ever which as you said overshadowed the comparatively much more thorough Unbound. There's just something grimy and cynical about the whole affair - I recall a buddy who's a huge Whitney superfan complaining to me about RR making a feet pics joke about her. Bad vibes all around.

 

[Samtendo09]

This post and all of these "long game unfinished" posts are putting the cart before the horse.

90% of the people who got into Pokemon fangames in the last 4ish years don't even know that Rejuvenation exists. Because no one covers it anymore.

90% of people who play romhacks nowadays don't use Smogon Forums. They don't go on pokecommunity, and god no they do not find RebornEvo. They exclusively find new games through Youtube content.

Reborn didn't "work", by the way. Reborn actually is a far worse game than Rejuvenation and that's the reason why people who had interest in Reborn still care about Rejuvenation. Reborn after many of its updates ended up having a great tileset, good unique mechanics, a good artstyle and good taste in music- but its story was bad, and the game's difficulty went off the rails towards being mainly unfun towards the last third of the game. I say this as someone who actually did slog through terrible moments such as listening to an annoying character's dialogue in my head over and over, doing a fetch quest to be able to fight the Fighting gym leader, who's gimmick is practically luck-based and I had to reconstruct my team to do it without IVs.

Reborn is a game that falls off extremely hard as it goes on. I will say the beginning of it is one of the coolest bits of any Pokemon game, with the limitation of options the player gets meaning they actually have to try- Reborn is one of the best Pokemon fangames when it comes to getting the player to remake their team, and rewarding them for doing so. But as the world opens up it's more about convenience and the vibes of the game goes from this cool, atmospheric broken city, to just mainly normal Pokemon.

Rejuvenation in a way is actually fulfilling things that Reborn was supposed to do but with an actually coherent plot and game, while Reborn was always messy as fuck to begin with, and a way better difficulty curve.

Saying that Rejuvenation's plot is inherently not well-written because the game is long is just a bad take. Many of the best stories ever are absolutely long as fuck- is Rejuvenation one of the best stories ever?? No, but it's Pokemon as a series that is one of the few RPG series to have plotlines that aren't over 50 hours minimum. Reborn and Rejuvenation are just the length of normal RPGs.

All of y'all are bringing smoke for a project trying to reverse engineer a justification when the reality is that it's not about your thoughts on the game, it's that people don't make content on these games anymore. Rejuvenation isn't the only story game that isn't talked about much, and while I dislike Unbound there's a reason Radical Red got far more coverage- it has that streamable quality.

The idea of a "Speedrun mode" is literally just anti-games-as-art. Games should not be designed around convenience, they should be designed to elicit the feelings that the developer wants. Story games should be story games, and if the developer wants the game to be about the story, why would they do a "Speedrun mode" so that people will skip most of the work?

Redesigning games to appeal to streamers is such a cringe concept and it's one of the flaws with modern gaming, frankly. I'm not one of those people who thinks modern games are getting worse, I think there is a lot of variety in the genres that weren't there in the early 8th and majority of the 7th gens, where it was mainly just military shooters and other varieties of shooters. A 2023 couldn't happen a decade ago. But honestly, this touches on something that's making the indie game market less appealing to me as a potential maker; games being designed around going viral and being streamable will always win out over the games that are mainly singleplayer and often make people cry.

Lethal Company is a cool game, but compare its success to the likes of Rain World, where it took years and a DLC in order to be a small niche title with any fan community, despite being one of the most immersive games ever- an experience that will stick with players for decades. I think game design is in a war right now between games that try to stick with people forever (good!) and games designed for players to forget the experience the next day, but come back for their next dopamine hit.

Games like Radical Red are cool, but ultimately their main purpose is streamer fodder to be used by streamers so that their thousands of viewers can get their dopamine hit (Where they will forget everything the next day).

IMO this entire discussion is a microcosm of what the scene of developing is becoming. Trying to make a 100 hour campaign game with a story you want people to remember for free? But what if not all of the story is important! How will streamers stream this??

Then onward to do challenge run 42 that will be forgotten the day after completion, or watching Youtube/Streaming in a week for accumulative many hours, or many games where literally all of the time you spent will be forgotten.

We should support games that are actually aiming to be ambitious and try to make an experience that will stick with people, and not reverse engineer a justification for why the games failed to get traction when the actual reason is much more cynical than "Some people didn't wanna replay it", considering the majority of the audience doesn't know the game exists.

I understand if what I'm describing sounds pretty dramatic, but at the minimum I just want people to recognize the amount of effort that goes into this, and how it isn't "the developers fault" that they started making a game close to the end of an era. Rejuvenation is one of the last remnants of that era, and most of the fangames we get nowadays don't bother with a new campaign; people are spending hundreds of hours remaking Kanto. Again. In another engine (Essentials).

If you want one of the other few story games to come out in the last few years, there's a cool fangame I played called "Pokemon: The First Journey"; the premise is that the game is about Professor Oak in Kanto when he was young, and includes a lot of fanon lore about what Pokemon are and how they work. It's a decently lengthed game, about 15ish hours I think, and it has some interesting gameplay since Pokemon Centers don't exist. I don't like all of the lore, but the lore leads to an extremely interesting ending that is supposed to lead to the other game the creator is making. It is as I just said, another person spending hundreds of hours remaking Kanto, but instead of in the way that Pokemon Infinite Fusion just remade Kanto but again to fulfill a gameplay gimmick, the way this game plays through Kanto is mainly in reverse, and it's used for story context- it doesn't end up feeling much like a Kanto game, only maybe the last third can feel like it moreso when the areas open up. IMO it justifies that work.

And the game is done, so if you want a complete Pokemon story experience, there you go. I wish we got more games like these, because this is a game that actually really sticks with me; I'm not gonna act like it's some high-class writing, but what I'm getting at overall is that it doesn't need to be high-class writing to be something to stick with you. I recommend anyone who likes to get an interesting take on Pokemon lore to try it.

View attachment 661131

So basically, appealng to streamers bad, and I can see why. Instant gratification have been overemphasized in the game markerting nowadays to the point of criticism, where even some indie companies fell to this trap. I would not be surprised if “streamer-bait” becomes a term by now or in the future.

I haven’t experienced Rejuvenation myself so I’m not one to speak, so I apologizes for coming off as giving bad faith. Still, I do hope Rejuvenation won’t end up fumbling the bag with the potential ending.

Not the “bad guy wins” scenarios as long as it’s logical and with intent of giving a cautionary tale, which Rejuvenation isn’t necessarily one cautionary tale from what I know. I‘m moreso talking about a weak ending or a horrible one that ends up tainting the story itself or even the game as a whole. An example is Serious Sam: Siberian Mayhem, a standalone DLC of Serious Sam 4 that receive wide acclaim for the first time since The First and Second Encounters, especially regarding the much-wanted boss fight with General Brand. Alas, the postcredit stinger of Siberian Maynem did leave a severely sour note.

A bigger one would be Game of Thrones. It used to be quite a juggernaut in terms of multimedia franchise… that is until Season 8 made the show’s flaws much worse, and the final episode swiflty killed interest of the franchise, at least as of this writing. Not that the franchise is abandoned, such as a rep in WB’s Multiversus crossover game, but definitely not as big as it once was.

I can only hope Rejuvenation keep the hype and story going now that it got a much needed revamp update in Chapter 13.5m and deliver a sastifying ending to an already great story.

On the topic of Radical Red…

All these comments you've been making are way, WAY better-articulated versions of what I said in my first post about "bad incentives" in online content creation potentially having a role in why the kinds of Pokemon fangames I want to see aren't being made or getting anywhere, so thanks for that a great deal.

I think you've also touched on why Radical Red bothers me so much. I'm can't say it's totally devoid of merit, boss design at its level is its own form of art, but its view of the Pokemon setting is just too... I guess utilitarian is the right word? It's the same reason why I can't get into most 2d Marios, the world is so bland, extraneous and secondary to the experience that it's practically just pure gameplay, which in a world filled with 2d platformers that excel at both just doesn't cut it anymore. RR could've easily been Extreme Emerald or Bodacious Black and nothing about its design goals would've changed whatsoever. This would be completely fine if it were just treated as a glorified tech demo, a stepping stone for better experiences down the road; instead it's the most popular Pokemon fangame ever which as you said overshadowed the comparatively much more thorough Unbound. There's just something grimy and cynical about the whole affair - I recall a buddy who's a huge Whitney superfan complaining to me about RR making a feet pics joke about her. Bad vibes all around.

Radical Red is meant for more of a NatDex challenge mode hack, but I can see why it’s so concerning. You could say that people’s nostalgia can also drive them to the wrong direction.

 

[ant4456]

So basically, appealng to streamers bad, and I can see why. Instant gratification have been overemphasized in the game markerting nowadays to the point of criticism, where even some indie companies fell to this trap. I would not be surprised if “streamer-bait” becomes a term by now or in the future.

I haven’t experienced Rejuvenation myself so I’m not one to speak, so I apologizes for coming off as giving bad faith. Still, I do hope Rejuvenation won’t end up fumbling the bag with the potential ending.

Not the “bad guy wins” scenarios as long as it’s logical and with intent of giving a cautionary tale, which Rejuvenation isn’t necessarily one cautionary tale from what I know. I‘m moreso talking about a weak ending or a horrible one that ends up tainting the story itself or even the game as a whole. An example is Serious Sam: Siberian Mayhem, a standalone DLC of Serious Sam 4 that receive wide acclaim for the first time since The First and Second Encounters, especially regarding the much-wanted boss fight with General Brand. Alas, the postcredit stinger of Siberian Maynem did leave a severely sour note.

A bigger one would be Game of Thrones. It used to be quite a juggernaut in terms of multimedia franchise… that is until Season 8 made the show’s flaws much worse, and the final episode swiflty killed interest of the franchise, at least as of this writing. Not that the franchise is abandoned, such as a rep in WB’s Multiversus crossover game, but definitely not as big as it once was.

I can only hope Rejuvenation keep the hype and story going now that it got a much needed revamp update in Chapter 13.5m and deliver a sastifying ending to an already great story.

On the topic of Radical Red…

Radical Red is meant for more of a NatDex challenge mode hack, but I can see why it’s so concerning. You could say that people’s nostalgia can also drive them to the wrong direction.

I want to clarify too that, not every game needs to be some super artistic masterpiece. What worries me is when people who do try to make those kinds of games can't make it work anymore.

I am not trying to say you can't enjoy games that aren't trying to be deep, I'm not a purist in that way- I enjoyed Radical Red (as I've said many times before), and I dabble in difficulty hacks. I play some multiplayer games (albeit I've tried to cut down on it. I played 2,300 hours of Splatoon 2, and years later I'm now thinking- how much of that do I really remember? Extremely little. When I play multiplayer games, I try to usually play them with friends so that it's more of a social thing rather than solitarily grinding against the ELO wall- tangent aside-) and as I said, I do like Lethal Company. It just worries me when both can't coexist. I think it's very valuable to have games that are just comfort food to put on while listening to a podcast, or to wind down from work.

Games don't all gotta be super meaningful, or things you remember your entire life, just as not every movie is made to be remembered, and some people read a hundred YA novels. I just think there's gotta be a balance and I feel that's been lost in the Pokemon fangame scene.

I just wanted to clarify this because I get that in my rant earlier it may have sounded far more judgmental than I am, I don't think playing these games is bad and I myself will play them on occasion. I just think that the way streamers are incentivized to only really play these games changes the reward ratio way too heavily in favor of games that are mainly "Pokemon but X is different", rather than unique campaigns.

 

[WinterArcanine]

Also, even when streamers aren't doing speedrun content, often they'll have a speedrun timer on for some reason nowadays, anyways? I don't actually know the logic for this one, I think it's just part of an "aesthetic".

I watch some of the streamers that do this, it's because twitch chat always complains about there being no timer even if a timer isn't relevant to what they're doing. I think people just like knowing how long someone has been doing something.

 

[Sonikku A]

It's the same reason why I can't get into most 2d Marios, the world is so bland, extraneous and secondary to the experience that it's practically just pure gameplay, which in a world filled with 2d platformers that excel at both just doesn't cut it anymore

Mario Wonder deadass is so devoid of world building and substantial world themes it's funny, especially for lack of bosses. I was the Day 0 "hater" for immediately seeing past the aesthetic upgrade compared to NSMBU (it's still abuses rigid 1x2, 1x1, and 1x3 slope tiles). It's an ok game, but still super barebones in the other aspects you mentioned

Actually I feel that's another issue. A lot of people now are so easily swayed by superficial aesthetic, the lore/worldbuilding/gameplay takes a massive backseat. Nostalgia also clearly skewed; fans hate corporate nostalgia of beginnings, but then aggressively prop up fan nostalgia of another era. I feel like ScaVio would be significantly less exposed for its game design flaws (outside glitches) if the game actually looked pretty. You know, like HGSS

It unironically, completely shits on this

Look at the recent King Kong game, that's beyond trash for art and graphics. No one cares or really likes it. And Pokemon again was the middle finger to this meme

A lot of modern Indie games are extremely obsessed with aesthetic, then...end up spending so much time on it they never finish, as game design and story were again backseat. Or if they do finish, it's a retread of another game for gameplay

It's pretty depressing

 

[ant4456]

Mario Wonder deadass is so devoid of world building and substantial world themes it's funny, especially for lack of bosses. I was the Day 0 "hater" for immediately seeing past the aesthetic upgrade compared to NSMBU (it's still abuses rigid 1x2, 1x1, and 1x3 slope tiles). It's an ok game, but still super barebones in the other aspects you mentioned

Actually I feel that's another issue. A lot of people now are so easily swayed by superficial aesthetic, the lore/worldbuilding/gameplay takes a massive backseat. Nostalgia also clearly skewed; fans hate corporate nostalgia of beginnings, but then aggressively prop up fan nostalgia of another era. I feel like ScaVio would be significantly less exposed for its game design flaws (outside glitches) if the game actually looked pretty. You know, like HGSS

It unironically, completely shits on this
View attachment 661180

Look at the recent King Kong game, that's beyond trash for art and graphics. No one cares or really likes it. And Pokemon again was the middle finger to this meme

A lot of modern Indie games are extremely obsessed with aesthetic, then...end up spending so much time on it they never finish, as game design and story were again backseat. Or if they do finish, it's a retread of another game for gameplay

It's pretty depressing

I'm gonna stick my head out, I think Super Mario Bros. Wonder is a great game.

The game absolutely lacks like, any writing really. And compared to games like Celeste it can leave it being really feel weird not having a theme. The bosses are bad, no defense for them.


But I think it's a great game because I disagree, I think Wonder has a great visual identity where it all feels cohesive despite being all over the place. In dev interviews they talked about how a lot of conventions in the Mario games went from "weird" in the 80s and 90s to mundane, and wanted to create new things that are definitively Weird. And I think it works well.

The 3D Mario-esque setup makes each level feel more interesting IMO, and I think that the movement and mechanics are top notch. If you think they really just said "fuck it make a new mario but this time make it pretty to trick them", please watch their GDC conference. They go through basically their entire process and why, Wonder SPECIFICALLY is not a game that was supposed to be like that- and it really isn't.

Is it my favorite 2D platformer? Nah, but it's probably my favorite 2D Mario, feeling the most fleshed out with stuff I'd want to do. No other 2D Mario made me want to 100% it (unlike the 3D Marios), but Wonder got me to do it.

Plus, I can play as Toadette. EZ Clap W

Ultimately still a game to just play with a podcast on, not that deep, but 2D Marios are supposed to be Premium Junk Food and IMO Wonder is the Premium-est Quality Junk Food

 

[pokemon4eva]

Radical Red is meant for more of a NatDex challenge mode hack, but I can see why it’s so concerning. You could say that people’s nostalgia can also drive them to the wrong direction.

Don't forget that the fanbase was reeling from the Pokemon cut of 2019, so a game which includes the (almost) whole National Dex plus having balance changes to mons and levels of difficulty that would never be seen in mainline games (for better and worse) sounds pretty attractive.

 

[Samtendo09]

Mario Wonder deadass is so devoid of world building and substantial world themes it's funny, especially for lack of bosses. I was the Day 0 "hater" for immediately seeing past the aesthetic upgrade compared to NSMBU (it's still abuses rigid 1x2, 1x1, and 1x3 slope tiles). It's an ok game, but still super barebones in the other aspects you mentioned

Actually I feel that's another issue. A lot of people now are so easily swayed by superficial aesthetic, the lore/worldbuilding/gameplay takes a massive backseat. Nostalgia also clearly skewed; fans hate corporate nostalgia of beginnings, but then aggressively prop up fan nostalgia of another era. I feel like ScaVio would be significantly less exposed for its game design flaws (outside glitches) if the game actually looked pretty. You know, like HGSS

It unironically, completely shits on this
View attachment 661180

Look at the recent King Kong game, that's beyond trash for art and graphics. No one cares or really likes it. And Pokemon again was the middle finger to this meme

A lot of modern Indie games are extremely obsessed with aesthetic, then...end up spending so much time on it they never finish, as game design and story were again backseat. Or if they do finish, it's a retread of another game for gameplay

It's pretty depressing

Given the damage done by the ultra-realistic games, both of the PS3 / Xbox era and late PS4 / Xbone onward, of course people are more attracted to the “superficial” aesthetic, as long as it help it stand out among the crowd.

I do agree that those modern Indie games are obsessed with aesthetic to a fault. When, and not just if, people realizes that the senseless pursuit for aesthetic over a balance between them caused more harm than good, including far too little indie releases down the line, some severe backlash might happen.

Doesn’t help that the aesthetic of some modern games, both corporate and indies, look awful to look at, and not in a good way.

 

[Sonikku A]

Given the damage done by the ultra-realistic games, both of the PS3 / Xbox era and late PS4 / Xbone onward, of course people are more attracted to the “superficial” aesthetic, as long as it help it stand out among the crowd.

I do agree that those modern Indie games are obsessed with aesthetic to a fault. When, and not just if, people realizes that the senseless pursuit for aesthetic over a balance between them caused more harm than good, including far too little indie releases down the line, some severe backlash might happen.

Doesn’t help that the aesthetic of some modern games, both corporate and indies, look awful to look at, and not in a good way.

I feel the idea of "realistic" and "cartoony" is wrong. It should be "simplistic" and "detailed" for design. Technology has mostly plateued for tech, but the effort to make it good and run well is lost for some

A lot of post mid 2010s ultra realistic games are bland ironically due to being unrealistically devoid of life, characters, and piss camera framing. A BBC documentary is far more interesting to me than those games precisely cuz of this. It was honestly worse 2006-2013 when bloom and piss brown filter was thought as "realistic", though current post processing being prioritized over actual good lighting is shitty. Monkey Ball Banana Mania while not trying to be realistic in the slightest is very guilty of this, and looks worse than the OG Gamecube games lighting

Similarly, this ignores that cartoony can be generic. NSMB series very blatantly shows that. It's why the aesthetic upgrade for Wonder was extremely well recieved, it was new for once, and tried

Something I also feel is missed is logo and ui iconography does affect a game's feel as well. Mario Odyssey's ui amongst other early Switch titles are extremely flat, just raw New Rodin mostly with no further tweaking. It's odd given traveling is a theme of the game, with Peach herself going on a tour post credits, so you'd think the entire game would have travel brochures, not unlike what Sunshine did with it's infomercial, pause/map screens, and even made up alphabet for Noki bay. Meanwhile OG Super Monkey Ball...

This isn't even half the list for Monkey Ball-SMB Deluxe
A lotta shit was used, and even outside that, a lot were tweaked depending on context (like replicating family owned restaurants using stock fonts). You see this fade after the mid 2000s later

Now the weird thing is, bombastic iconography is still common in Japan magazines, even TV shows. But I think the reason it faded in games is cuz UI designers stopped being a specialized 2nd role likely due to budget. Programmers wanted more immediate results, and less licenses would be needed to use less fonta, so they just use use around 3 plainly. Which again, weird, cuz for Splatoon Nintendo directly made a new font for the game, with a lot of flashy elements for online events, but...

With all this said, visual noise exists. Getting on an aesthetic high can ruin the experience. Japan game shows and NicoNico vid are awful to see cuz of the sheer text spam eating most of the screen

It's overall a tightrope to balance

 

[Ironmage]

The whole "why wouldn't I just use actual reality" thing is pretty much my reaction to a vast majority of open world games. At some level, it feels like a parallel to the real is brown era: a devtime-intensive buzzword that doesn't actually indicate the quality of the experience. If exploration in and of itself is supposed to be interesting, at least pick a biome I haven't seen a hundred times before. It probably says something where the only game in recent memory I thought about playing primarily to experience the vastness of the world is a creepypasta SM64 romhack.

 

[ant4456]

My response to "artstyle vs realism" (as if most realistic styled games don't have an artstyle):

i feel like where there are people who absolutely are like "games are meant for graphical showcases!!! give me more polygons!!!" there is also the entire opposite side where people say realistic graphics can't be worth it generally, and that games are degressing due to it,

and idk! it depends!

a game like Red Dead Redemption 2 is a game that really uses its artstyle to shine. it's not just a Realism Game, it's also stylized to like. a painting's rendition of America during the time period (factually, they said this in interviews), and it says a lot about the time period the game takes place at. riding with the chief of a native american up a mountain while seeing this vast, beautiful land that we know what happens to (Because real life! we know what happens to the native americans and real life!), it makes it... melancholic, inspiring, beautiful at different points of the story.

the visuals are realistic but that realism adds to the art in a way that a more stylized artstyle couldn't capture. im by no means some patriotic american, but it somehow feels the most American essense game possible, in a good way. it's clear the devs had a lot of love for american history, i mean they basically wrote fake chapters of books based on real writings of philosophy at the time; i'd go as far as to say Red Dead Redemption 2 is the biggest budget "Nerd Game" in history

but then, of course, there are games like spiderman where, frankly, i think an into the spiderverse style game would go nutty mode. at the same time, i do think the visuals add value to that game too, but i admit that sm2 doesn't really need all those polygons

i think people really get caught up on bad examples of games prioritizing realism (which were more common in the 7th gen) while forgetting that the realism style still has value, and that while some may say it ain't so, the fact that movie type stuff crossed with games is popular is so (and isn't necessarily a bad thing)

as with all trends in game creation, its best when there is a balance, and imo we are hitting a balance after over a decade. it feels like there is a healthy amount of both styles

one thing i will also add is the "realism game = cost = shutdown studio" is just not exactly true, in fact if we cut realism games that'd cut tens of thousands of jobs in the industry that are mainly to help make those games possible. a lot of the jobs being cut are studios that banked dosh on trying to become the next fortnite (usually due to investor pressure), or their owner just wanted a tax cut + to look better on the portfolio.

we have not been at a time where singleplayer games of all styles can be this popular since like the 6th gen, baldurs gate 3 sales people!!! that was impossible before

people like to point to sony losing money on ratchet and clank when Rift Apart was mainly a way to sell the Power of the SSD and it was one of the first exclusives on a console nobody had for years, and frankly- it's just more niche. sony's done a bad job of expanding its audiences tastes. if you only feed them uncharted over and over, they will come to expect uncharted- what makes nintendo work is that while most of their games are AA endeavors that aren't award winners, they give a little something to everyone

if sony sucked up the "studio prestige" shit where every game has to be a GOTY nominee and started pumping out a WarioWare here and there, their audience would be more privy to picking up games like Rift Apart

its a pretty uniquely sony thing considering most big developers right now are shipping singleplayer games that sell a kazillion copies

edit: i also wanna add that contrary to popular belief, cartoony style doesn't inherently = less technically complex either, because Fortnite is being passed around as a UE5 showcase to devs

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I don't really know anything about Resurgence or Unbound, but the game design decisions I've heard of regarding Radical Red seem... not good. And the story and flavor stuff I've heard in this thread are not good. And I've heard a lot of the stuff it does is actually just ripped directly from someone else's project.

...why do people like this mod, exactly?

 

[Sonikku A]

I don't really know anything about Resurgence or Unbound, but the game design decisions I've heard of regarding Radical Red seem... not good. And the story and flavor stuff I've heard in this thread are not good. And I've heard a lot of the stuff it does is actually just ripped directly from someone else's project.

...why do people like this mod, exactly?

Cuz Dexit

Having nearly all mons wasn't done before in hacks/fangames. The rebalanced abilities some mons are also cool

No one cared for everything else

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Having nearly all mons wasn't done before in hacks/fangames. The rebalanced abilities some mons are also cool

Nah, everybody was doing it. It was extremely easy to make hacks like these. There was a patch with all mons up to Gen 5 or 6 iirc back when XY was the current game.

Most of them just wound up incomplete or irrelevant.

The stuff I hear about Radical Red sounds positively abysmal. It's like going back in time to those half-baked "betas" but apparently they actually finished one.

I've yet to see a difficulty hack that doesn't immediately sprint into the pitfall of Showdown-style bosses. National Dex hacks are also tear-inducingly boring. You can accurately tell if a hack will be garbage just by reading what it's about. Aimless, boring, uninspired projects can't result in good design.

 

[Yung Dramps]

I've yet to see a difficulty hack that doesn't immediately sprint into the pitfall of Showdown-style bosses. National Dex hacks are also tear-inducingly boring. You can accurately tell if a hack will be garbage just by reading what it's about. Aimless, boring, uninspired projects can't result in good design.

Just once, just freaking once I want to see someone do a series of difficulty hacks that actually stick to the original games' regional dexes and try to stay at least somewhat flavorful instead of bloating all the encounter tables and wheeling out nonsense like Champion Blue with Eternatus and Arceus (THIS IS WHAT RADICAL RED FANS ACTUALLY PLAY).

 

[Sonikku A]

How do you guys feel about having starters catchable in the wild?

Like, most hacks won't have wireless multiplayer/trading, much less a fangame

I feel early route mons need to be buffed to not feel inferior if one were to catch all immediately for early game, or they can be made to be a route's rare superboss

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

How do you guys feel about having starters catchable in the wild?

Like, most hacks won't have wireless multiplayer/trading, much less a fangame

I feel early route mons need to be buffed to not feel inferior if one were to catch all immediately for early game, or they can be made to be a route's rare superboss

I definitely appreciate it when a fangame/hack is truly single-player, even if it has trade functionality. If you're aiming for the classic main series feel, though, making starter Pokemon available early kinda kills that vibe instantly, because in an official-style game your rival's starter is supposed to be one of your most threatening opponents. I think having them available in postgame for the sake of 'dex completion is a good way to balance things.

With a more difficult and/or 'NatDex' game, it's more complicated. In the context of a game that genuinely challenges the player, a lot of starters aren't actually very strong (at least not in the same 'mash A' way that they are in the official games). They should still be treated as special and rare, but I think the ideal way to utilise them is to make them sidequest/exploration rewards, staggered appropriately throughout the game depending on how generically good they are.

 

[TailGlowVM]

Although it's not a full hack, EisenTree is a difficulty hack that tries to be flavorful and keeps reasonably close to the original.

It's a mod of the Battle Tree that tries to make it more like VGC and Doubles OU, with more competitively-minded movesets, worthless abilities eliminated, and some of the more prolific Tree players represented as AI trainers, often using the same species as they did in their real teams.

 

[sg pokemon]

Just once, just freaking once I want to see someone do a series of difficulty hacks that actually stick to the original games' regional dexes and try to stay at least somewhat flavorful instead of bloating all the encounter tables and wheeling out nonsense like Champion Blue with Eternatus and Arceus (THIS IS WHAT RADICAL RED FANS ACTUALLY PLAY).

I believe the series of "Kaizo" hacks made by SinisterHoodedFigure is exactly what you're looking for, then. Now, before people start panicking at the mere sight of the term, I feel like some misconceptions need to be cleared up:

1. Yes, all of the games of the series are very tough and intentionally made to feel unfair, be it through map design, stronger teambuilding for both bosses and even generic trainers alike, and through stricter emphasis of resource management. However, through sufficient game knowledge (and persistence, especially for the nastier map designs....), the games are very much beatable; after all, they're still within the confines of Pokemon when it comes to aspects like the turn based combat, 4-movement grid, etc.
2. The above point is further emphasized by the fact that the games do not add/change ANY of the actual games'/gen's mechanics/mons*; they merely make use of what's available to their fullest extent (including stuff like rby's glitchiness, the way certain turn based interactions work in battle in the earlier gens, etc) (technically speaking, emerald kaizo also adds a few "new" moves from later gens, to diversify the mons' learnsets with the increased dex size).
3. An additional layer of difficulty from them comes from scaling difficulty curve; weaker mons/moves are available as early as it makes sense for them to be, while stronger ones are available later in the game/possibly even postgame. This may seem like basic game design logic, but it really helps put the spotlight on mons you might've not considered using on a playthrough otherwise, especially with their buffs. This goes hand in hand with the steeper level curve of the games encouraging you to switch up members often, adding mons obtained from newer areas to keep pace with the general surroundings (though if you want, nothing's stopping you from sticking with some mons of your choice for longer periods of time, especially if you're willing to invest in them via tms). This also adds an additional layer of nuance to resource management; yes, you could use this tm to help out your current mon, but what if said mon appears in the wild later on already knowing the tm move/possibly an even better alternative? This also makes even wild pokemon a challenge of their own, be it from them being tougher opponents than expected (random ai notwithstanding), or becoming a pain to catch by using recoil/suicide/phasing moves to make catching them a greater chore (on top of whatever catch rate they might have....).
4. No, the games don't change the story at all, however the aforementioned map changes -frustration notwithstanding- can still make going through them like a whole new experience, especially with them utilizing new ways to make use of hms- you need fly to access the pokecenter of certain cities as it's blocked off by ledges otherwise, and jasmine in crystal kaizo's fought 7th due to her lighthouse being blocked off by a whirlpool, which you need to beat pryce to get past (he's also always fought 6th, iirc because of the aforementioned fly thing? Been a while since I last played). You may also need dig/escape ropes to get away from some caves' cut off doors.

Things like this, and many more, are what make the games worth exploring, once the stigma of their shared term is overcome. I definitely recommend them to anyone wanting to even just study some more meticulous game design choices towards a certain goal!

For reference, the games in question are: Blue/Crystal/Emerald/Dark Rising Kaizo, Intense Indigo (there's also an "easy version" of it, Indigo Lite), Magma Ruby 202, Stadium Kaizo, and Kaizo Colosseum. Platinum Kaizo's supposedly also in the works, but nothing's been heard of it in ages.

*However, several pokemon within each of the games themselves DO receive buffs/reworks, be it in terms of stats, movepool additions, or simply better availability/earlier evolution level. Because let's be real, they need it, whether to make them more worth using in general, or to make better additions for opponents' rosters.

and also, because I just know it might get brought up

I'm actively choosing to omit/not bring up the fact that Emerald Kaizo's been all too popularized by the various Nuzlocke challenges of it, creating a...particular viewpoint about how it/games of its ilk are meant to be played. Firstly, no, the above mentioned games were never meant to be nuzlocked; there's nothing to stop you from doing so ofc, but just...know what you're getting into, is all. Secondly, I've got....mixed feelings about the fact that this has since caused a whole genre of "tough games meant to be nuzlocked, inspired by Emerald Kaizo" to emerge now. Most prominently represented by hacks like Vintage White, Run and Bun (though apparently its dev has stated it's not meant to be nuzlocked after all? Idk), and also "trashlocke" games like Garbage Green, Garbage Gold (the latter being the first HGSS hack on the new romhacking engine made for it!!...and it's a trashlocke game with super peculiar design choices), etc.
Perhaps I'm just being too influenced by the opinions of some of my friends here, but it feels like if a game's designed to only be challenging as a nuzlocke, if you then remove said nuzlocke restrictions and play through the game normally, the game might not feel as challenging as normally intended, which might be upsetting to those wanting to play through the game itself, but not with the nuzlocke restrictions (the games themselves might still pose a challenge though). And...this whole genre continues to become more and more popularized to this day, and....yeah.

 

[Ironmage]

I think that Natdex makes sense as the default for a more challenging hack. I know when I'm making teams for characters to use I don't like any regional dex restrictions, so if the idea is for the challenge to be fair the player should also have that breadth of options when facing those teams. The only reason I think my creations could potentially work in a restricted format (built around them) is that they generally aren't optimized so the player shouldn't need to have everything at their disposal. .

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

How do you guys feel about having starters catchable in the wild?

Like, most hacks won't have wireless multiplayer/trading, much less a fangame

I feel early route mons need to be buffed to not feel inferior if one were to catch all immediately for early game, or they can be made to be a route's rare superboss

It's fine for post-game/very late-game

Read: I know Viridian Forest is the best fit for Bulbasaur, but don't make it wild there before Brock dammit!

Just once, just freaking once I want to see someone do a series of difficulty hacks that actually stick to the original games' regional dexes and try to stay at least somewhat flavorful instead of bloating all the encounter tables and wheeling out nonsense like Champion Blue with Eternatus and Arceus (THIS IS WHAT RADICAL RED FANS ACTUALLY PLAY).

I'll let you know if I ever finish a hack lmao

I think that Natdex makes sense as the default for a more challenging hack. I know when I'm making teams for characters to use I don't like any regional dex restrictions, so if the idea is for the challenge to be fair the player should also have that breadth of options when facing those teams. The only reason I think my creations could potentially work in a restricted format (built around them) is that they generally aren't optimized so the player shouldn't need to have everything at their disposal. .

I understand where you're coming from, but to me, that kind of messes with the identity of a region.

 

[ant4456]

Idt y'all GET Radical Red:

Radical Red is a game about exploration and boss fights that just happens to be in Kanto. For most of the game, the player is expected to explore and look for encounters and counters to the next boss fight around the region, and potentially swap out the ones you like the most later to other threats.

Nuzlockes for instance will often use a lot of Kanto's exploration potential before Surge to get a ton of encounters that help a lot. Keep in mind, most play with No Grinding Mode so EVs and IVs don't exist, and rare candy cheats are allowed even on the official Discord server's Hall of Fame.

It's definitely not the deepest experience, but Radical Red is a fun game because it leverages one of the facts of Pokemon: The balance is extremely lopsided in the player's favor. A game with zero mechanical skill to display. A game where the trainer has one team that won't change, and the player has all the options in the world. The only real question is how much the player will explore to curve out that advantage, or how little of a team advantage they can accept.

RadRed basically takes this and because of the difficulty, encourages every player to explore for most of the game. Around the 5th gym, the gyms are less about one type or so, and you start using the pool of Pokemon you caught throughout the game to really have a core team.

It's also more fun to explore to find all the buffed Pokemon and see what they can do!

Here's an interesting example from my times of Nuzlocking 3.2: Early game has a very fun strategy that was satisfying every time. There's two really common encounters before Falkner, Phanpy and Sandshrew (both versions IIRC), and both have the combination of Defense Curl Rollout which should win the fight pretty easily.

This is a strategy I'd literally never use in a main series game because I'd have to be assed to feel the need to have a set strategy to fight Falkner, even if I have Chikorita I will be using Tackle several times thank you very much.

The battle's difficulty is circumvented by having correct strategies. Brock on the other hand is not so easily fucked up by one strategy, but by using good switches and good management of HP, many of my runs had no deaths to Brock.

Similarly, Appletun with Thick Fat is a very good pick for both Misty and Surge and it's usually at a fairly consistent Dynamax raid, so I got it most of the time.

One of my favorite things in difficulty mods is being forced out of my Pokemon comfort zone and having to try stuff I'd never care to before. It's what I like about Reborn's early game where Poochyena and Trubbish are the top tier encounters.

Only towards like the 7th gym do the bosses really start to run stuff like Ultra Beasts and Mythicals. After the 8th gym there are legendaries around the region (beyond the Kanto birds), but you'll never be able to get the cover legends. All in all, RadRed's trainers only start to get balls to the wall crazy with legendaries at the time the player can start to get many legendaries.

But also, in classic Pokemon fashion, that isn't required or even necessarily optimal.

(from the Discord)

Meganium RadRed is awesome, it has Triage and Fairy so it's the best Dracovish counter, and basically checks so much shit. Cool Pokemon

I think RadRed was definitely way worse when it came out. The devs seemed to be up their ass, the game wasn't even that hard or well-balanced, but over the updates and really ever since the 3.0s the game just feels really solidly balanced.

I'm not one to replay a difficulty hack over and over, but I don't think I could really get entirely bored of RadRed if I were in a prison and had to play one fangame over and over. I mean even if I did every challenge run for Normal, there's Hard Mode where the entire game is rebalanced, practically a second difficulty hack in the same game, randomizers, etc.

RadRed is p cool

 

[Lontra Assassina]

Ironically, one of my favorite romhacks is Emerald Rogue, which completely drops the pretense of being an RPG (aside from the mechanics of course) and fully commits to the idea of being a boss rush meants to be played over and over again

 

[pokemon4eva]

I think ppl are exaggerating a bit too much about the difficulty of RR when in reality, the game gives you a lot of tools you'll need. It's not like say, the Dark Rising games, where you're at a constant disadvantage against the CPU in both levels and pokemon available.

Ironically, one of my favorite romhacks is Emerald Rogue, which completely drops the pretense of being an RPG (aside from the mechanics of course) and fully commits to the idea of being a boss rush meants to be played over and over again

Emerald Rogue has been one of my fav romhacks of the last years, and while I couldn't get into the bigger 2.0 update, I'm also enjoying Pokerogue. Wild to see 2 different directions of the rogue sub-genre applied to the Pokemon formula.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

I rarely like fanmade buffs to individual Pokemon. I like being able to rely on the instincts I've developed as a longtime Pokemon player and it's really jarring when a opponent's Pokemon has way more bulk or power than I'm expecting because it got some absurd stat buff. I don't think I should have to study a changelog before playing your fangame/romhack! Plus, a Pokemon's obvious flaws are often part of why I like it in the first place. If it gets a Dragon or Fairy typing slapped onto it with a 50-point stat buff, a crazy ability, and a bunch of new moves that don't really fit its design or flavour, it becomes a fundamentally different Pokemon to me.