The Best and Worst Boss Fights in Pokemon

Sixfortyfive said:
A lot of this discussion pertaining specifically to Misty's difficulty strikes me as theoretical anyway because I can't think of an instance where my 1998 self wouldn't either have had a properly leveled Pikachu on hand or had just dumped all of my EXP into my starter and overpowered every bad match-up.
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This is what I was referring to here

Me said:
Anyway my main point was that one would think she'd be higher up on the list if many more kids had been traumatized by their starter Pikachu being destroyed despite the apparent type advantage—which isn't the case unlike with Whitney's Miltank.
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Misty's Starmie in theory has everything to absolutely wreck you if your only option is Pikachu (either the starter or the Viridian version) due to easily tanking Thundershock and doing a ton with BubbleBeam but due to poor AI there weren't thousands of kids with PTSD after the fight. Like sure, Pika can live a hit and paralyze but it normally shouldn't win one on one unless it's overleveled.

So yea she could've been much harder in RBY than what she realistically ended up being.
 
I know its controversial for some, but Ultra Necrozma is my favorite fight in the series because,.unless you cheese it, the best strat is literally the Power of Friendship. It's so anime.

Having stuff like Affection procs + Rotom Dex friendship procs makes it feel like you really get to hold your own, and keep using Z Moves, living from the power of friendship, etc.

Some may say this is lame, or that it is "cheesing", but I disagree. I think it's cool, and you can still win without that. Besides, if USUM is gonna replace SM's story with basic shonen, I'm gonna lean into the shonen.
 
Hugin said:
My personal choice for worst difficulty spike is still Wattson. Especially in Emerald, where he has 4 mons, 2 of which are fully evolved. Static and TWave can easily burn through berries if you're doing a no-items in combat run, or waste turns if you use items. Electric is easy to counter, except that there's almost no ground-types available now(Geodude, Nincada, and Marshtomp), and Grass mostly sucks(Nuzleaf, Seedot, and Grovyle). So really your only non-starter option is the Gen 1 rock you've used in every single game. His team's movesets are set up to be annoying and painful even if you do resist them, too. I'm not saying he's unbeatable, but when the route immediately after beating him gives Numel and Sandshrew, and you're within sight of Cacnea/Trapinch/Baltoy, having to catch a Geodude to beat him in almost every playthrough just feels bad, and trying to power through him with neutral hits feels worse.
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So I want to add that Grass includes Breloom, who at its Level 23 evolution would have Mach Punch to beat Magneton and have a neutral STAB off its higher stat (alongside the Electric Resistance), so there's at least one other option to cite there (15% encounter in Petalburg Woods that NPC dialogue mentions isn't too outlandish), plus there are other things you can mess with like Yawn/Sludge/Amnesia Gulpin from Route 110, Nincada as a Ground or a potential Shedinja (depending on if the player uses "filler" slots or not by the time it evolves), the latter of which literally can't be hit by anything besides Voltorb's Rollout, or Linoone having Mud Sport to give it a fake Resistance and compatibility with Rock Smash to break Magneton who resists their strong-for-the-moment Headbutt (and you might be carrying as an HM user or Pick Up bot even if not a major battler), and some decently strong neutral Evos around that level range like Vigoroth and Hariyama (especially if it has Guts for the Thunder Waves).

If a grind game is a consideration, there's also stuff like Oddish and Electrike which can resist the enemy to status them and put them on timers or slow down their own attacks, on top of the fact that 2/3 of your Starter options come out on top like Misty, who has 2 options readily available if you didn't take a good Starter or catch Pikachu in Viridian Forest due to the Route 4 Ledge lockout. If anything I call Wattson easier just on the basis none of the Starters are outright useless into him, Combusken having STAB options that are SE into the main wall of Wattson's team for a lot of the previous answers (Magneton) and (along with some of the above) being compatible with the Bulk Up TM you get from Brawly to boost further.

I just think Wattson has significantly more options available than Misty for a Blind player to try against him in Emerald, a large number of which the player is either likely to be using or have fairly ready access to alongside the Daycare and a free Bike Route to level up after fighting the trainers.
 
pika pal said:
none of the Starters are outright useless into him
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pika pal said:
Linoone having Mud Sport to give it a fake Resistance and compatibility with Rock Smash to break Magneton who resists their strong-for-the-moment Headbutt (and you might be carrying as an HM user or Pick Up bot even if not a major battler)
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uhhhh
pika pal said:
Nincada as a Ground or a potential Shedinja (depending on if the player uses "filler" slots or not by the time it evolves), the latter of which literally can't be hit by anything besides Voltorb's Rollout
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uhhhhhhhhh

Okay I guess I wouldn't say it's completely useless, but Grovyle is so ass against Wattson. It might take a few turns to fall thanks to its Electric resistance, but its incredibly weak moves relegate it to Screech support against the major threat in Magneton (assuming you've raised it to Level 23). It can't even reliably beat his Voltorb, particularly in RS where it has Sonicboom.

Linoone gets Mud Sport at Level 23 (or 21 as a Zigzagoon if you delay evolution) so I think we can discount the idea that you'd just incidentally have an HM friend/Pickup pal Linoone with Mud Sport for Wattson. Even setting that aside, though, a same-level Linoone's Rock Smash is, under the best possible circumstances (excellent IV, +Atk nature, Defense drop procs every time, universally high damage rolls, no hax from TWave or Supersonic) a 4HKO on Magneton, whereas Shock Wave, even under Mud Sport against a Linoone with exceptional HP/SpD IVs, is a likely 5HKO. This is a one-in-a-million scenario I've constructed and you still just barely come out on top.

Shedinja fears more than just Voltorb's Rollout, with Magnemite (RS) and Magneton each knowing Supersonic. Both naturally outspeed you and the AI understands Wonder Guard (except when it comes to switch logic), so they'll either use Thunder Wave then Supersonic or immediately go for Supersonic, at which point you'll instantly have a 27.5% chance of self-KOing. Meanwhile, you're poking away with Fury Swipes or Scratch. Sand Attack can maybe buy you a few turns, but unless the rest of your team is also resistant to Shock Wave it doesn't function super well as team support.

I agree that the abundance of optional trainers nearby make Wattson way more manageable, and there are definitely more viable options than it initially appears, but a lot of the quirkier ones either only put in work against the mons that aren't really a threat anyway or rely on specific combinations with other Pokemon that could probably manage fine on their own with a couple of extra levels.
 
Cancel cult said:
honestly, despite it being like objectively terrible, i actually like the ultra necrozma fight. all the criticisms i said are still valid, but there is something just so cool about watching your team get completely destroyed by this badass light dragon to the theme of not voltron
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It does have the best theme of any boss battle since... well, actually since the last games since SM Lusamine's battle theme is fucking incredible. Best legendary Pokemon theme for a good few generations, at least.
 
its been a while since i played usum but i remember ultra necrozma being among my favorite fights in the series. i like that you have to genuinely strategize for it and go out of your way to come up with ways to beat it, as opposed to usual pokemon a spamming. i can get how its a bit cheap and not for everyone but i dunno, i thought it was cool. it's also probably one of the only ways to make a lategame battle against a single mon genuinely challenging tbh
 
QuentinQuonce said:
It does have the best theme of any boss battle since... well, actually since the last games since SM Lusamine's battle theme is fucking incredible. Best legendary Pokemon theme for a good few generations, at least.
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disagree, i think it is the best theme in pokemon. i will say that there is competition, especially from giratina, blue, wally, and groudon/kyogre, but imo, ultra necrozma outshines them all. thats not to say lusamines theme isnt great, but the alola games have great music in general, as do the rest of the games.
(im listening to it right now)
 
Cancel cult said:
disagree, i think it is the best theme in pokemon. i will say that there is competition, especially from giratina, blue, wally, and groudon/kyogre, but imo, ultra necrozma outshines them all. thats not to say lusamines theme isnt great, but the alola games have great music in general, as do the rest of the games.
(im listening to it right now)
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It is definitely in my top ten. I've never made a list but off the top of my head Diantha's theme, Zinnia's theme, Lusamine's mother beast theme, Red and Blue's Battle Tree theme would all rank very highly. I'm also very fond of the Kanto gym leader theme from GSC and DPP's gym leader theme, as well as the legendary beasts' encounter music.
 
Continuing the discussion of 3DS era boss fights, the only one I can really say left a lasting impact on me was the Deoxys fight in the Delta Episode in ORAS. Wally’s “super saiyan” Victory Road moment comes close but falls a part a bit for me since nothing unique happens here should you actually lose to him. Here, though, this is excellent. The buildup to the fight is particularly memorable, especially if you weren’t expecting this going in. That moment Deoxys’s theme kicks in after the meteor shatters is up there with Volo’s reveal in Legends: Arceus as far as “Wait, WHAT?” moments from Pokémon music are concerned. Trying to catch Deoxys here without the Master Ball is genuinely challenging too.
 
Codename C.A.T said:
The Best:
Emerald Tate & Liza. God, this fight is so good. It's one of the few examples of real, bona-fide synergy in Pokemon, and it's especially fun to plan for in Nuzlockes. Claydol is a great choice especially with a team of 4 Ground immunities, plus a Xatu to mitigate the team's Water weakness and set up Calm Minds for a potential sweep make for a great opening turn that incentivizes some really neat strategies like Explosion. Solrock is also great, having a Sunny Day setter in this fight is absolutely brilliant and it really abuses the over reliance on Swampert throughout most playthroughs(unless you just kill it lol). Lunatone is kinda the most whatever Mon on the team, but it's still pretty good with Hypnosis to be really annoying on top of a screen. I just love the fight, idk.
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I've been wanting to make a post about Gen 3 Tate and Liza in general but never got around to it. I very much concur.

The fact that a player is very likely going to rely on Surf when the move is weakened by both early spreads mechs (50% damage unlike later gens) and Sunny Day means the otherwise pedestrian combo of Lunatone and Solrock is more challenging than it lets on at a glance, even in RS. I distinctly remember the twins walling me during my very first playthrough of Sapphire as a kid since you can't just waltz in with a random Water-type and no plan and expect to immediately roll. The space rocks' other weakness also don't have many good options to allow easy exploitation: Grass is in its mostly bad phase (or the Pokémon probably has a secondary type weak to Psychic), Ghosts are limited to two Pokémon that are the opposite extremes of stone wall and glass cannon, and Dark is suffering from "it's not Gen 4 yet so no Physical/Special split" Syndrome.
 
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Best... I'd say... Red in GSC maybe... It was the most memorable boss fight, in my opinion. It was equal parts challenging and fun.
Worst has to be the Team Rocket Intermission in Pokémon Stadium 2. It's not even because the trainers are strong. It's because they use every cheap trick imaginable.

I'm currently replaying Colosseum, so I might update this post later.
 
Dive Missile said:
its been a while since i played usum but i remember ultra necrozma being among my favorite fights in the series. i like that you have to genuinely strategize for it and go out of your way to come up with ways to beat it, as opposed to usual pokemon a spamming. i can get how its a bit cheap and not for everyone but i dunno, i thought it was cool. it's also probably one of the only ways to make a lategame battle against a single mon genuinely challenging tbh
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Ultra Necrozma is basically the Pokemon equivalent of the Finalhazard from SA2: If you pick it apart from a cold, clinical boss design perspective it objectively kind of sucks but the buildup, vibes and feeling of intensity are so immaculate you don't actually care in practice
 
im not a fan of shonen so maybe im biased but i dont think necrozma is a shonen moment. for that you need to feel backed into a corner vs a threat but you take the upperhand and win in bombastic fashion with the help of your allies/a powerup/a grand sequence. necrozma doesnt really give you the chance to take the upperhand in the moment, youre often either winning from cheesing it or grinding the level difference, which makes the fight feel cheaper.

i do agree eternatus is a much better shonen unapologetic boss fight. teaming up with the wolves while facing eternamax and defeating it was a lot more fun, even if it was pretty easy. its giving up agency (you dont need to strategize since the dogs carry you) for grandieur and spectacle, and id rather that than grindy bosse imo
 
Bakugames said:
im not a fan of shonen so maybe im biased but i dont think necrozma is a shonen moment. for that you need to feel backed into a corner vs a threat but you take the upperhand and win in bombastic fashion with the help of your allies/a powerup/a grand sequence. necrozma doesnt really give you the chance to take the upperhand in the moment, youre often either winning from cheesing it or grinding the level difference, which makes the fight feel cheaper.

i do agree eternatus is a much better shonen unapologetic boss fight. teaming up with the wolves while facing eternamax and defeating it was a lot more fun, even if it was pretty easy. its giving up agency (you dont need to strategize since the dogs carry you) for grandieur and spectacle, and id rather that than grindy bosse imo
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Where I lose interest in Eternatus and similar setups is I'm not capable of feeling backed into a corner because of the lack of agency. There's no actual risk of failure, just follow the script.

When I think of potential for a hype anime moment, it actually ends up being Sticky Web, something which only applies against trainer fights. You lead off with your fragile bug-type, quite possibly some route 1 mon that you've had at your side much longer than you're intended to. It barely survives the opponent's first strike, and the only thing it manages before falling to the second is a move that doesn't even deal scratch damage. After a long fight, the enemy brings out their ace, which can threaten to sweep your weakened team. That is, if it actually outsped. But instead you win because of your terribly-statted bug all the way back on turn 1 giving you the support you need.
 
Bakugames said:
im not a fan of shonen so maybe im biased but i dont think necrozma is a shonen moment. for that you need to feel backed into a corner vs a threat but you take the upperhand and win in bombastic fashion with the help of your allies/a powerup/a grand sequence. necrozma doesnt really give you the chance to take the upperhand in the moment, youre often either winning from cheesing it or grinding the level difference, which makes the fight feel cheaper.

i do agree eternatus is a much better shonen unapologetic boss fight. teaming up with the wolves while facing eternamax and defeating it was a lot more fun, even if it was pretty easy. its giving up agency (you dont need to strategize since the dogs carry you) for grandieur and spectacle, and id rather that than grindy bosse imo
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Ultra Necc feels like one of those bosses that's supposed to humble the player by pulling up overleveled and with inflated stats and then putting you on a cutscene after losing.

Mon is pretty much a raid boss that you gotta beat solo.

That battle encapsulates everything I hate about Gen 7 boss design.

The Switch games did a lot better tbh.
 
A lot has been said about SV's boss design being disappointing, but Grusha in particular upsets me in two different levels. First for missing out on the oportunity to make a Slush Rush-based team (considering two of his Pokémon can have this Ability and he's literally a snowboarder); second for failing to show off the new properties of Snow that were introduced in this generation
 
Lontra Assassina said:
A lot has been said about SV's boss design being disappointing, but Grusha in particular upsets me in two different levels. First for missing out on the oportunity to make a Slush Rush-based team (considering two of his Pokémon can have this Ability and he's literally a snowboarder); second for failing to show off the new properties of Snow that were introduced in this generation
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After I effortlessly beat the eighth gym on the first try, Grusha disappointed me for a bit. If the fight itself was really hard, then it would line up perfectly with his narrative, and it would be great. However, at some point I realized something that completely flipped my opinion on it:

You were meant to fight Grusha early.

She is located fairly close to the academy, so many players will probably fight her as the fifth or sixth gym, when she is the eighth level wise. And you will obviously lose, since the level gap is so high. This sudden and complete destruction of your team will be a massive blow to your ego, ending your wining streak cold, putting a direct parallel with you and Grusha. And when you finally beat Grusha at the climactic eighth gym battle, you will have decisively overcome it. This makes Grushas gym by far my favorite, as it is the perfect way to make use of the open world setting.
 
Cancel cult said:
After I effortlessly beat the eighth gym on the first try, Grusha disappointed me for a bit. If the fight itself was really hard, then it would line up perfectly with his narrative, and it would be great. However, at some point I realized something that completely flipped my opinion on it:

You were meant to fight Grusha early.

She is located fairly close to the academy, so many players will probably fight her as the fifth or sixth gym, when she is the eighth level wise. And you will obviously lose, since the level gap is so high. This sudden and complete destruction of your team will be a massive blow to your ego, ending your wining streak cold, putting a direct parallel with you and Grusha. And when you finally beat Grusha at the climactic eighth gym battle, you will have decisively overcome it. This makes Grushas gym by far my favorite, as it is the perfect way to make use of the open world setting.
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I can’t remember off the top of my head if it was here or in another thread where I talked about this, but for what it’s worth, this is part of why I think the Cobalion from Pokémon Rumble Blast is surprisingly memorable even if the game itself doesn’t get nearly enough attention. I’m not about to go on record and say that a (non-Mystery Dungeon) Pokémon spin-off has some of the best writing ever seen in a video game, but for anyone who hasn’t played this game, basically what happens is that Cobalion’s set up to be a super-stereotypical “I wanna take over the world!” antagonist early on- typical Pokémon shenanigans- only to go completely left field immediately after that with a forced loss battle and shorter, gradual depth expansions into Cobalion’s character that helps the player understand Cobalion’s motivations following your second battle that can be won later on.

The comparison I’m trying to make here is that over time, both Grusha and this completely random Cobalion both felt like they lost everything when they were faced with something that changed their lives. The main difference, for me at least, is that this admittedly very sharp approach to Grusha’s character can get lost in translation a bit within Paldea’s poorly-structured “go anywhere” approach to the main story. Which is ironic, given that the big finale of these games in Area Zero is extremely linear by comparison, almost unfittingly so. Rumble Blast’s Cobalion may have the game’s linearity force the narrative a bit, but at least here the point gets across consistently. It’s not about how good the writing is in both cases- it’s about how the game helps the writing’s execution.
 
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