I know people think KrazyKoopa95's post is a joke, but am I the only one who thinks he's being completely unironic? I believe that numbered list included his sincere thoughts on the matter... The tell would be "Please upvote to save Gouging Fire from being completely unused in Ubers. "
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
I personally love Gouging Fire & I dont want it banned. I dont think anything I said is justifiable. Also, I stopped playing OU for a long time.
shh, let him cook, i haven't had this much fun reading a forum post since player j
I am not a Gouging person, because from my experience using it, it feels... pretty mid.
Yeah it can run away with games a lot of times, but not after like 2 dances. You also need booster energy for it to be somewhat threatening.
Yeah it can run away with games a lot of times, but not after like 2 dances. You also need booster energy for it to be somewhat threatening.
It kind of seems like the ban team is going for the too many viable sets route. I'm personally undecided but am hoping to get an opinion by getting reqs.
I've played games where GF blows a crazy amount of holes. It's for sure one of the best progress makers if you don't happen to have the counter to the set your opponent loaded.
What is y'all most convincing ban logic/angle for this?
I've played games where GF blows a crazy amount of holes. It's for sure one of the best progress makers if you don't happen to have the counter to the set your opponent loaded.
What is y'all most convincing ban logic/angle for this?
Sorry to break the sarcasm but I'll be that guy. Gouge isn't part of the ban triangle(darks, ghold, zam) where if one gets banned all the others would start to take over. Gouge also doesn't have to run be as it can just run boots and still be good. Also gouge hasn't rose since it's the old vr and gouge doesn't really need priority since ddance and it's bulk is practically enough(still is a shame we don't have dragon priority) also pretty much any fairy or dragon in the tier rn does NOT like +1 stab flare blitz/heat crash
Guys please this time be clear about wanting or not to ban Gouging Fire...Because the Pokémon Cypher should release in October and I don't want it to be delayed again due to CTC staying too much time discussing the mon
As a HO builder & spammer, I've been disgusted of Gouging Fire for at least 2 months. This mon is litteraly an offensive cancer, equivalent of Gliscor in bulky teams. While one has to toxic protect, the other has to dd outrage. Same brainfart between both. I voted ban the 1st time, I was hoping for that pokemon to be ubers and the results weren't good at all unfort.
During olt we saw outrage tera dragon, the most broken set I've ever seen. Able to ohko defensive moltres, gholdengo after a dd, etc... I invite people to check some calcs :
After gouging, we'll have to ban kyurem (that sub tect is horrible) & for balancing out those bans, gliscor will follow them. Darkrai is also a target to ban. But please, if you have the reqs, vote ban for saving that metagame I can qualify as "worst metagame of gen9".
During olt we saw outrage tera dragon, the most broken set I've ever seen. Able to ohko defensive moltres, gholdengo after a dd, etc... I invite people to check some calcs :
+1 252+ Atk Protosynthesis Tera Dragon Gouging Fire Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 267-315 (84.7 - 100%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Protosynthesis Tera Dragon Gouging Fire Outrage vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 420-496 (108.2 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Protosynthesis Tera Dragon Gouging Fire Outrage vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Great Tusk: 312-368 (71.8 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Protosynthesis Tera Fire Gouging Fire Raging Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo in Sun: 252-297 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Protosynthesis Tera Dragon Gouging Fire Outrage vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 420-496 (108.2 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Protosynthesis Tera Dragon Gouging Fire Outrage vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Great Tusk: 312-368 (71.8 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Protosynthesis Tera Fire Gouging Fire Raging Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo in Sun: 252-297 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
After gouging, we'll have to ban kyurem (that sub tect is horrible) & for balancing out those bans, gliscor will follow them. Darkrai is also a target to ban. But please, if you have the reqs, vote ban for saving that metagame I can qualify as "worst metagame of gen9".
nah, the "worst meta of gen 9" award goes to either:
- natdex ag, the meta that combines the easy balanceability of ag, the comfortable power level and straightforward mechanics of natdex, and the accessibility of revivecats
- freedom cup, which wasn't ever a proper meta but managed to split the difference between ou and ag by being a crappier version of both
- pure hackmons, where attacking moves in general are unviable outside of neutralizing gas users because of how ubiquitous tera wonder guard is. seriously, the sample teams look like this
- the loser's game, which has the most fucked-up vr of all time. the watchlist currently includes calyrex-shadow and alolan sandshrew
- gpt ag (coming soon!)
The hate for Loser’s Game is uncalled for…..
FWIW on the topics of solutions, are there any other reasons aside from the "potentially splitting the player base" argument that prevented the implementation of a non-tera ladder? Even if it were not the main supported metagame considered to be Smogon OU it seems like it would at bare minimum appease quite a large portion of the player base that has been more or less ignored since SV's release. We have all these other random metagames, is the pushback really that strong against this idea?
wait hold up but nasty plot ninetales-a has the sauce
also i thought of specs blizzard ninetales-a on a shitty snow team like a year ago so this feels like validation
For a ladder, it was policy reasons, but also nobody was willing to take on the burden of establishing interest. Whether that be a series of tournaments, building up a challenge-only community, an active and growing Discord server, or filling a Brinks truck with candy and bribing site staff, there needs to be someone taking charge and supporting the forming community.
This is possible - Ubers UU exists now as an unofficial tier - but it's a lot of work that never got done.
I'm actually pretty shocked that gouging fire is getting a suspect test over the long list of more destructive candidates. We going from least likely to get banned to most in the tests XD
Gouging Fire had more support than anything else by ~21% in the ongoing tiering survey, which consisted of the players who qualified for the Official Ladder Tournament. Kyurem, which finished second, was well behind it.
If Gouging Fire is still at 4.5 like Finchinator had noted last night, then Kyurem is roughly around 3.6 if the next closest mon had 21% less support, which is a lower score than when Kyurem was last suspected. This shows that Gouging Fire is by far the best suspect target this time around as Kyurem is behind by nearly a full point.
Guess I've been paying less attention than I thought. My apologies
it's no problem, i was pretty sure it was gonna be kyurem right up until the suspect thread went up and so were a decent amount of people. most of the discussion about gouging fire was going on in other places—i saw a lot of complaints about it on discord
So while I know Tera Dragon Outrage is the new outrage, pun intended, I'm curious is there is anything else that has players particularly up in arms on GF lately. I ask because most of the discourse I have seen on these forums seems to emphasize this one set the most, although there are obviously others.
Last time, it was people changing their minds on the Breaking Swipe set which caused a reverse in ban momentum. I'm hoping not to see a repeat of that. I don't think we will again just because the set diversity is recognized as much greater now. But it's not like Gouging Fire never had that capability before. It's just that we as a community had tunnel vision on what was being used at the time. And while I can of get how some of that could have been dismissed as theory mon, it really seems a bit strange that it took this long for us to realize Tera Dragon Outrage was enough of a nuke to not be a just a meme.
It's maybe not impossible that Outrage can be countered, though, particularly because it locks you in and there is an immunity. There are quite a few usable Fairy types in OU (including some from lower tiers) with it also being a very common Tera type. Of course, scouting for this in the first place could be extremely dangerous since you need to worry about both DD and high damaging Fire moves. Heatran also isn't the best option because of the threat of EQ. However, you could take advantage of Outrage locking them into the move. You bring in something to take Fire moves, and assuming it can live one Outrage, you could then simply switch to a Fairy or Tera into a Fairy. The problem is these Outrage nuke sets are typically seen on teams designed to take out the fairies for it. While having a Tera Fairy in reserve seems like a somewhat reasonable thing to me, I also don't like the idea that GF's mere existence seems to force out a Tera.
Then there is Tera Blast, which can be made to directly counter whatever you would normally have for GF. TB sets that seem best to me are Fairy and Grass. Those are good STAB combinations with Fire with good defensive utility. But if it's about KOing fairies directly, you can actually use Iron Head without even needing Tera Blast. That said, the Fire damage could also be enough to KO most of them. So it is probably unnecessary to use TB for fairies specifically. I think it's more likely you would see TB as a tool to create strong general coverages that could also hit big walls like Dozo, Zama, or even the OU Grounds. Such sets would be difficult to build for on top of everything else.
Last time, it was people changing their minds on the Breaking Swipe set which caused a reverse in ban momentum. I'm hoping not to see a repeat of that. I don't think we will again just because the set diversity is recognized as much greater now. But it's not like Gouging Fire never had that capability before. It's just that we as a community had tunnel vision on what was being used at the time. And while I can of get how some of that could have been dismissed as theory mon, it really seems a bit strange that it took this long for us to realize Tera Dragon Outrage was enough of a nuke to not be a just a meme.
It's maybe not impossible that Outrage can be countered, though, particularly because it locks you in and there is an immunity. There are quite a few usable Fairy types in OU (including some from lower tiers) with it also being a very common Tera type. Of course, scouting for this in the first place could be extremely dangerous since you need to worry about both DD and high damaging Fire moves. Heatran also isn't the best option because of the threat of EQ. However, you could take advantage of Outrage locking them into the move. You bring in something to take Fire moves, and assuming it can live one Outrage, you could then simply switch to a Fairy or Tera into a Fairy. The problem is these Outrage nuke sets are typically seen on teams designed to take out the fairies for it. While having a Tera Fairy in reserve seems like a somewhat reasonable thing to me, I also don't like the idea that GF's mere existence seems to force out a Tera.
Then there is Tera Blast, which can be made to directly counter whatever you would normally have for GF. TB sets that seem best to me are Fairy and Grass. Those are good STAB combinations with Fire with good defensive utility. But if it's about KOing fairies directly, you can actually use Iron Head without even needing Tera Blast. That said, the Fire damage could also be enough to KO most of them. So it is probably unnecessary to use TB for fairies specifically. I think it's more likely you would see TB as a tool to create strong general coverages that could also hit big walls like Dozo, Zama, or even the OU Grounds. Such sets would be difficult to build for on top of everything else.
I mean you kind of answered your own question, people are much more annoyed by the sheer set variety and this is just the newest of the silly sets it can pull (and it won't be the last).
It "technically" had set diversity but it wasn't explored back then to the extent it has been now. Beyond that,sets like DD+Dragon Tail (Roar too I believe) are very stupid and kind of just get past a lot of what should be "counterplay".
I've been spamming this for awhile now. it's so hilariously good at dealing with other booster mons/set up mons. Long as it isn't a fairy type there's very little you can do due to how bulky it is.
Ausma said in between 3.5 and 4.0 so probably like moreso in the 3.8-3.9 range if I had to guess, considering that it was stated it had enough support for action as well, just not as much as gouging fire obviously
Either way both are busted and both should go, let's take care of gouging fire first I guess. Both should definitely go and neither would be missed.
Not sure where to post this question as this topic is probably somewhere..
I recall generations ago, for sure at some point, gen 4 or 5 maybe, where suspect requirements involved two ladders one with the suspect and one without? And you had to make req on both to vote
Why was that discontinued as a practice?
I do feel like gouging fire is the most powerful in the game right now. It's ability to melt everything after proto atk +1 dd is sick. Tera ground just to get 1 dd is so easy. But between hazards and the turn to set up it'll gets pretty wore down- occasionally sweeps. Is 1 nearly guarantee kill a game broken? Idk Won't go for reqs it can go either way for me
Really want to see the survey
I recall generations ago, for sure at some point, gen 4 or 5 maybe, where suspect requirements involved two ladders one with the suspect and one without? And you had to make req on both to vote
Why was that discontinued as a practice?
I do feel like gouging fire is the most powerful in the game right now. It's ability to melt everything after proto atk +1 dd is sick. Tera ground just to get 1 dd is so easy. But between hazards and the turn to set up it'll gets pretty wore down- occasionally sweeps. Is 1 nearly guarantee kill a game broken? Idk Won't go for reqs it can go either way for me
Really want to see the survey
Well, yes, but I wanted to know more specifics. If it is just one major set and some less standout variety, I feel like that is more easily dismissed or at least prone to a change in consensus.
That's a great example. I haven't run into it lately or thought about phasing GF, but even hearing it already annoys me. I often use phasing Zama, which is far more balanced, and it does similar things against opposing setup mons and walls without having that same kind of extreme threat level.
Well outside of that fact that Dragon Tail is STAB chip for GF, and maybe you want that for extra chip, Roar is generally the better of the two phasing moves since there is less counterplay in the tier. Soundproof Kommo-o is rare in OU and other mons with that ability such as Electrode are like ZU. Plus, Gouging doesn't need to worry as much about Ghold since it threatens in directly with Fire STAB. It's really just Hatt that is an issue for Roar, but that too is immune to Dragon moves.
I'm not sure if you are answering my question from earlier, but Tera Ground is an interesting one to emphasize. In many ways, it is better since you can just use EQ over TB. You get offense and defense with one Tera.
In general, defensive Tera on speed boosting setup sweepers has been disgusting this gen. You can often get a DD on the forced switch and then defensive Tera further to get to +2, so long as they don't switch in an Encore mon like Valiant that turn. You are basically guaranteed a +1 and can often get a +2 pretty easily. BE makes the problem worse. You often wind up in one turn almost as if you had two setup moves. The snowballing gets accelerated.