Serious The Politics Thread

[Cancel cult]

yeah most people who mindlessly echo this shit don't know what they're talking about that doesn't absolve you. but sure, I'll bite.

Fascism as an ideology thrives on arguing the the exact way you do: Saying something blatantly incorrect, drawing a false equivalence to justify this incorrect (usually hateful) point, then adopting either deflection or this holier-than-thou type, condescending "agree to disagree because I can't change your mind" that fascists love to use to make their arguments seem like the righteous, legitimate ones and to make anyone else arguing against them seem foolish or beneath you.

Does this make you a fascist? Not necessarily. But it speaks a lot that when told you're using the same arguments as fascists and that actually that's really bad, your immediate response was defensiveness and trying to make her look foolish for even conceiving such an idea.

Let me give an example of this, just for clarity.



When presented with a pretty well-researched argument about how most of the harmful ideas spread in this thread, instead of actually trying to counter it, you simply drew a false equivalence between the Palestinian fight for freedom against colonizers to pointless revenge, in a pretty clear attempt to delegitimize the movement as a whole.

You never elaborated on this, you never provided a shred of legitimacy to the claim that the Palestinian fight against an active genocide is no better than revenge.

When actually provided with another well written argument about how spreading disinfo is actively worse than saying nothing, instead of an actual counterargument, you just attempted to deflect by hiding behind "not being an expert" and tried to insinuate that actually she, an actual Palestinian woman, was the one being misled and falling into propaganda's hands.

Refusal to admit your own faults except when to use them as a shield and deflecting and maliciously delegitimizing others arguments are traits deep in the core of fascism/fascist talking points. Do better than that, or do nothing.

You have misunderstood me on multiple levels.

First of all, I have been incredibly transparent with my faults. Like, I used to start every post with "I know nothing about this, so take this with a grain of salt." I diliberately tried to avoid spreading misinformation by just discussing the logic of the posts. The worst thing I could have possibly done is echo misinformation already in this thread, but I don't think I actually started that information outside of replying to the person who said it. (if I did, please remind me of it)
Second of all, that bit about revenge wasn't even about Palestine.
Also, nothing I did was malisious, and I am not trying to delegitamize any arguments. I dont know whether Hamas is or is not a terrorist organization. All I was doing was calling into question Sabels certainty, as I believe absolute certainty is very dangerous. Also, I don't think there were any sources given by Sabel, so I don't know what you mean by well researched.

 

[Wigglytuff]

I will not say much regarding this as I don't see much of a point. That said I will say that I do not believe that my view is objectively correct and important, or that you need to comport with it in any way. I am expressing my views and are free to agree, disagree, respond, react, not respond, not react to them. I am not saying that I think those posts hold no value or any such thing. I just don't want to continue them. You can see it as me not being able to refute any of those claims and that's fine. I simply do not wish to start such discussions where I don't see myself enjoying them or having much meaningful things to say. Our views are just too different and I believe if I were to express them fully, most people will react similarly to the way you did when responding to me which is not something I strive for.

What you should be getting out of these posts is that we (or at least me, guess I can't speak for everyone else) think that at best, you are applying a well intentioned but naive and misguided notion of bias towards fairness when the facts on the ground are clearly anything but fair. At worst, you do not actually think that what Israel's doing is bad, but you recognize that you can't actually come out and say that, and you're using this framing of "both sides" and "mutual understanding" as a way of getting your foot in the door to then start peddling propaganda.

To be perfectly honest, I think you are closer to the latter than the former. No real reason I can give you, but that's just what my gut says. But to offer you charitability and give you the benefit of the doubt that you are actually being honest and are just new to the thread, you are just another poster in a long line to dishonestly use the framing of civility/"both sides" to demand dialogue that isn't actually deserved by the strength of their arguments:

Person 1

Started posting in the thread in similar fashion to you by calling the discussion in the thread unproductive due to a lack of civility (1, 2). Then came back as someone purportedly looking for rational dialogue before going on to deny the theory of evolution (lol?) and the merits of modern biology and then claiming that God exists, for real, as a real argument (lol?)

Creationism does not need to be confirmed by science, although science does support it such as the amount of salt within the oceans. Why? Because it’s not about science. Either an all-powerful intelligent being created everything intelligently, or He didn’t. All other questions are answered by His mere existence. Hope this helped!

before saying that we're all toxic and leaving.

I actually don't think this person was maliciously using the framing of civility given their (purported) age but considering what came after, it was clearly dishonest.

Person 2

Started out by literally saying both sides framing is not good before then advocating for us to look at both sides a little more (lol?). A couple of paragraphs of pointless meta commentary on the state of political discussion nowadays, before they get to what they're actually here for: a politics thread minus the politics! Instead, we'd be "tackling political topics at a philosophical level"!

Fails to respond to posts pointing out why this is stupid to the point of being harmful to productive political discussion, including a very good one that actually does respond to it "philosophically".

Person 3

The post was deleted, but you can look at the surrounding posts to see what it argued (another both sides framing of the very same issue you're talking about), and the person continued to make these same arguments including this banger line:

I don't know how the Gazans (not even all Palestinians) are all that different from the WW2 Germans, TheMantyke.

There are plenty of more examples from the old Politics thread but I figure 3 in the past 4 months should illustrate the point. Which circles back to you. While I was typing this, you've actually completed the cycle by making your "I'm leaving and won't post here again" post! I'll give you credit in that you're at least more apologetic about it than the people above, but you're still placing at least part of the blame on us:

I have tried my best to keep responses as civil as possible but it seems I have made some statements I shouldn't have, and unfortunately that seems to discredit most of my beliefs in the majority of the people's eyes in this thread it seems, which is unfortunate to me.

instead of just owning up to making bad, intellectually lazy, and misinformed posts.

From my reading, a substantial portion of your posts related to this issue (around 40%) are comprised of both sides framing with no further political/historical analysis, complaints about the lack of civility, or the appeal to bias towards fairness ("mutual understanding"). The other 60%, when you are actually doing political analysis, you've been repeatedly demonstrated to be flatly incorrect, as you yourself admit.

So why exactly shouldn't most of your beliefs be discredited when they have, in fact, been discredited?

 

[Blue glass]

But when she said "Hamas is just a group of people defending Palestine, and any evidence to the contrary must be immediately discarded because it is automatically propaganda", It makes it much harder to do so.

Where she said that? She mentioned Hamas only once in her post, I think you are equating all Palestinians with Hamas.

 

[Cancel cult]

Where she said that? She mentioned Hamas only once in her post, I think you are equating all Palestinians with Hamas.

"The only people who want to commit genocide are the colonizers, not the colonized, no matter what your bullshit propaganda outlets tell you."
I assume she was referring to Hamas here.

 

[Chou Toshio]

This is how fascist apologia operates, say something blatantly incorrect but reasonable-sounding, duck out when challenged on your completely incorrect framing of history that justifies genocide, maybe throw in a “actually you are the one who is doing the thing you called me out for,” move on with your life continuing to be a neolib with fascist sympathies without even realizing where you stand

What Sabelette's saying here is exactly it, and more detailed version of the point I was making. Pretending there's validity to both sides when there's no reason to. Avoiding digging into history, material circumstance, data (qualitative AND quantitative posted in this thread). Over-zealous appeal to decorum and shallow indignity at political violence when violence underlies ALL politics and in this case is happening so viscously in real time--

Discourse of the style above is repeated again and again, and it's always just disingenuous cover for fascist apologia. It's completely undeserving of respect or taking seriously-- there's never reason to believe this kind of argument is made in good faith. My prognosis on how things move forward would probably be despised by most others on the left in this thread (cause you know it's gonna start with campaigning actively for Kamala Harris...), but I can recognize those on the left demanding greater urgency are contending with the real history/moral questions-- and we can all share the same ability to see through the same vapid patterns of fascist-cover through centrist facade we've been peddled again and again.

 

[Cancel cult]

This is exactly it, and more detailed version of the point I was making. Pretending there's validity to both sides when there's no reason to. Avoiding digging into history and material circumstance. Over-zealous appeal to decorum and shallow indignity at political violence when violence always is below the surface of politics and in this case happening so viscous in real time--

Discourse of the style above is repeated again and again, and it's always just disingenuous cover for fascist apologia. It's completely undeserving of respect or taking seriously-- there's never reason to believe this kind of argument is made in good faith. My prognosis on how things move forward would probably be despised by most other leftists in this thread, but I can recognize they're grappling with the real history/moral questions-- and we can all share the same ability to see through the same vapid patterns of fascist-cover through centrist facade.

Ok, I am only advocating for THE ARGUMENT OF "both sides" when it comes to faults. I really shouldnt have to say this, but Israel is in no way justified in genocide.

 

[Eroil]

What you should be getting out of these posts is that we (or at least me, guess I can't speak for everyone else) think that at best, you are applying a well intentioned but naive and misguided notion of bias towards fairness when the facts on the ground are clearly anything but fair. At worst, you do not actually think that what Israel's doing is bad, but you recognize that you can't actually come out and say that, and you're using this framing of "both sides" and "mutual understanding" as a way of getting your foot in the door to then start peddling propaganda.

To be perfectly honest, I think you are closer to the latter than the former. No real reason I can give you, but that's just what my gut says. But to offer you charitability and give you the benefit of the doubt that you are actually being honest and are just new to the thread, you are just another poster in a long line to dishonestly use the framing of civility/"both sides" to demand dialogue that isn't actually deserved by the strength of their arguments:

Person 1

Started posting in the thread in similar fashion to you by calling the discussion in the thread unproductive due to a lack of civility (1, 2). Then came back as someone purportedly looking for rational dialogue before going on to deny the theory of evolution (lol?) and the merits of modern biology and then claiming that God exists, for real, as a real argument (lol?)

before saying that we're all toxic and leaving.

I actually don't think this person was maliciously using the framing of civility given their (purported) age but considering what came after, it was clearly dishonest.

Person 2

Started out by literally saying both sides framing is not good before then advocating for us to look at both sides a little more (lol?). A couple of paragraphs of pointless meta commentary on the state of political discussion nowadays, before they get to what they're actually here for: a politics thread minus the politics! Instead, we'd be "tackling political topics at a philosophical level"!

Fails to respond to posts pointing out why this is stupid to the point of being harmful to productive political discussion, including a very good one that actually does respond to it "philosophically".

Person 3

The post was deleted, but you can look at the surrounding posts to see what it argued (another both sides framing of the very same issue you're talking about), and the person continued to make these same arguments including this banger line:

There are plenty of more examples from the old Politics thread but I figure 3 in the past 4 months should illustrate the point. Which circles back to you. While I was typing this, you've actually completed the cycle by making your "I'm leaving and won't post here again" post! I'll give you credit in that you're at least more apologetic about it than the people above, but you're still placing at least part of the blame on us:

instead of just owning up to making bad, intellectually lazy, and misinformed posts.

From my reading, a substantial portion of your posts related to this issue (around 40%) are comprised of both sides framing with no further political/historical analysis, complaints about the lack of civility, or the appeal to bias towards fairness ("mutual understanding"). The other 60%, when you are actually doing political analysis, you've been repeatedly demonstrated to be flatly incorrect, as you yourself admit.

So why exactly shouldn't most of your beliefs be discredited when they have, in fact, been discredited?

I will make a likely last response here, as I have explained early on and on my previous post, I look for things in life that make me happy, and I don't predict continuing to post here will do so. I am not going to comment on previous people that have opposed the mainstream view on this thread, as those cases don't bare much relevance to me and I have read none of them. I can see why you would bring them up, but I just don't see the need to comment on it.

I do not put the blame on anyone, not myself or others in this thread as I do not believe in the concept of guilt. I do hold responsible for my actions however, and so do others to their own actions.

I have apologized for making claims that aren't very relevant or are unhelpful for the discussion. I do not believe I have made any factually wrong comments, but that does not make them good.

You can take my statements however way you want. I do want to comment on the fact that while I was making quite the effort to make the discussion as peaceful as possible, it seems the culture on this thread isn't especially welcoming to opposing views, however well intentioned those people are. This is a very, very, very heated topic and gets to that point very often, but it's still disappointing to me. I started replying after seeing the post from Finch starting with the comment that "this thread is gross", he may have said that for a completely different reasoning but that should've probably been a warning for me. Political discussions very often get to this and I do not believe that this is an especially bad case of it, quite the opposite. For a bit people were willing to listen to some of the things I said even when it opposed their views. That said even though it might possibly be in the 1% of most civil places to discuss politics out there, it is not enough for me, which may be naive.

"instead of just owning up to making bad, intellectually lazy, and misinformed posts"

I don't believe that is true. I won't ask for you to provide evidence for it but I remain overall happy with the way in which I conducted myself. Even if I change my mind on the topic completely, I do not think I will change my mind regarding the way in which I conducted myself here.

"So why exactly shouldn't most of your beliefs be discredited when they have, in fact, been discredited?"

I do not believe they have been, but that's up for the person reading to decide. Regardless, even if you believe some, or even most of my statements are incorrect, does that mean you should discredit every statement made by me? I'll let you decide that.

 

[Cancel cult]

It is apparent to me that many people here have pegged me as a fascist, and it doesn't feel good to be called one. I have sat here for a while thinking of ways to defend myself, but I have decided that I will stop. At this point, any attempts by me to defend myself will be for the sole purpose of convincing people I am not a fascist, and as such are simply hollow words. So, I will state my opinion in one paragraph once more, and those who may believe me will know where I stand, and those who dont I will be unable to convince.

I am totally opposed to the genocide being committed by Israel.
Being the victims of genocide do not make you unable to be in the wrong.
I do not believe that Hamas is a terrorist organization.
I do not believe that Hamas is not a terrorist organization.
I am very uninformed on this issue, and as such, I have no opinion of my own outside of genocide bad, though I have opinions on others opinions.
I am likely wrong about a lot.
Everything I say should be taken with a grain of salt.
I believe that everyone should consider the possibility that they are wrong.

Things I forgot to put in that I am putting in after the editing:
Palestine has a right to defend itself. The methods they are justified in using I am not in a position to say.

 

[SittinGamer]

I am of the opinion that cancel cult is not actually a fascist based on his posting history here in my entirely vibes based assessment. Some posts haven't always been fully on the mark but I think there's a clear difference between going on gut feelings of like, violence against oppressors and a lack of clarity on what entails "innocence" versus like, the well written post from Wigglytuff showcasing actual examples of people pretty clearly stirring the pot and being cheeky about their intentions throughout this thread's history.

 

[Oglemi]

It is apparent to me that many people here have pegged me as a fascist, and it doesn't feel good to be called one. I have sat here for a while thinking of ways to defend myself, but I have decided that I will stop. At this point, any attempts by me to defend myself will be for the sole purpose of convincing people I am not a fascist, and as such are simply hollow words. So, I will state my opinion in one paragraph once more, and those who may believe me will know where I stand, and those who dont I will be unable to convince.

I am totally opposed to the genocide being committed by Israel.
Being the victims of genocide do not make you unable to be in the wrong.
I do not believe that Hamas is a terrorist organization.
I do not believe that Hamas is not a terrorist organization.
I am very uninformed on this issue, and as such, I have no opinion of my own outside of genocide bad, though I have opinions on others opinions.
I am likely wrong about a lot.
Everything I say should be taken with a grain of salt.
I believe that everyone should consider the possibility that they are wrong.

While I think it is admirable to admit ignorance and to not feign knowledgability on subjects, it's also unneeded for someone ignorant on a subject to interject with an armchair / devil's advocate 2cents, especially on subjects so nuanced and poignant to others. I think that is the core issue others have; especially when those arguments resemble so closely those of the "Modern Day Fascist" (feigning ignorance, appeals to humanity, etc as explained in Gimmicky's post).

Hopefully you can understand these points and return at a time more well-equipped to partake in the discussion as a knowledgable participant rather than in ignorance.

 

[Myzozoa]

Ok, I am only advocating for THE ARGUMENT OF "both sides" when it comes to faults. I really shouldnt have to say this, but Israel is in no way justified in genocide.

This "both sides" talk is an irrelevant caricature of the situation in Gaza, such as are oft repeated precisely for the purposes that make everyone uneasy w your postings. Hamas is not a terrorist organization, it was the government of a territory for over a decade and came to power by the intervention of Israel itself. Gaza is a prison where the state of Israel exercises near complete control and for which the Zionist entity bears ultimate responsible for all activities, excesses, and misadventures that occur or develop within, this is critical to understand fully. In the eyes of Israel's armies any Palestinian nurse, doctor, postal worker, milkman is an enemy 'Hamas' target to be destroyed. Hamas and Palestinians have expressed neither the intent nor possess the capability of carrying out a genocide against Jews anywhere in the world. The Zionist entity is a settler colony that is perpetuating a genocide on Palestinians, a project that depends on an information warfare to hide the fact that they are carrying on with the wholesale murder of an innocent population, a population which the Zionist entity has exercised total dominion over for decades. It is imperative to the Zionist project to muddy the waters on things like 'flaws' 'guilt' ultimately to obfuscate who was a victim and who was a perpetrator. That's why people are reacting to your posts with such skepticism and disgust, it comes off as yet another search for a reason for holding your nose and look away from the uncomfortable reality unfolding. Gonna stop there cause I get the sense that you, like so many people who post in these threads, are taking pleasure in building your own self-concept up ('the calm rational and civil doubter') through engagement more than you're really concerned with anything at stake here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_formation

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

I will make a likely last response here, as I have explained early on and on my previous post, I look for things in life that make me happy, and I don't predict continuing to post here will do so. I am not going to comment on previous people that have opposed the mainstream view on this thread, as those cases don't bare much relevance to me and I have read none of them. I can see why you would bring them up, but I just don't see the need to comment on it.

I do not put the blame on anyone, not myself or others in this thread as I do not believe in the concept of guilt. I do hold responsible for my actions however, and so do others to their own actions.

I have apologized for making claims that aren't very relevant or are unhelpful for the discussion. I do not believe I have made any factually wrong comments, but that does not make them good.

You can take my statements however way you want. I do want to comment on the fact that while I was making quite the effort to make the discussion as peaceful as possible, it seems the culture on this thread isn't especially welcoming to opposing views, however well intentioned those people are. This is a very, very, very heated topic and gets to that point very often, but it's still disappointing to me. I started replying after seeing the post from Finch starting with the comment that "this thread is gross", he may have said that for a completely different reasoning but that should've probably been a warning for me. Political discussions very often get to this and I do not believe that this is an especially bad case of it, quite the opposite. For a bit people were willing to listen to some of the things I said even when it opposed their views. That said even though it might possibly be in the 1% of most civil places to discuss politics out there, it is not enough for me, which may be naive.

"instead of just owning up to making bad, intellectually lazy, and misinformed posts"

I don't believe that is true. I won't ask for you to provide evidence for it but I remain overall happy with the way in which I conducted myself. Even if I change my mind on the topic completely, I do not think I will change my mind regarding the way in which I conducted myself here.

"So why exactly shouldn't most of your beliefs be discredited when they have, in fact, been discredited?"

I do not believe they have been, but that's up for the person reading to decide. Regardless, even if you believe some, or even most of my statements are incorrect, does that mean you should discredit every statement made by me? I'll let you decide that.

You might as well just admit you’re a Zionist and be done with it, to be honest.

Bad faith debating when you’re advocating positions that are:

1. Easily disproved
2. Morally reprehensible
3. Indistinguishable from Zionist talking points

…is obviously going to result with the vast majority of us turning to you and calling you out for what you are, and what you are peddling.

Obvious Zionist is Zionist.

I swear, so much of the pro Israel positions taken up on the internet that are pervaded with “both sides” arguments are no such thing: the both sides argument is there to mask the true intent, which is for Israel to “win” over Palestine and eradicate the Palestinian cause.

We see you, and others like you, for what you are. Cheerio.

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

It is apparent to me that many people here have pegged me as a fascist, and it doesn't feel good to be called one. I have sat here for a while thinking of ways to defend myself, but I have decided that I will stop. At this point, any attempts by me to defend myself will be for the sole purpose of convincing people I am not a fascist, and as such are simply hollow words. So, I will state my opinion in one paragraph once more, and those who may believe me will know where I stand, and those who dont I will be unable to convince.

I don’t believe you’re a fascist. I think more likely is you’re uninformed and making half formed opinions based on little information, which to be frank isn’t a particularly good look either. Educate yourself and you will do better.

I am totally opposed to the genocide being committed by Israel.

Good, so should we all.

Being the victims of genocide do not make you unable to be in the wrong.

Yes, but arguing about the moral right of the Palestinians right to self defence and resistance, when it is literally enshrined in international law, is a nonsense. Example:

“Excuse me, you there? The Palestinians? Yes, please can you resist your oppressor who kill about thirty to forty of you daily a bit less violently please. Thank you very much”.

It is just nonsensical. No, no one here agrees with the principle of terrorist activities, nobody here is calling for violence (if anything, we want it to stop, right now!) but an oppressed people/state/country has the right to resistance under international law, and proportionality actually only works when you are doing the oppressing, under international law, actually.

Its a bit like saying the French resistance shouldn’t have blown up all of the German’s trains, and killed their soldiers and railway staff, when trying to stop Germany from moving tanks, weapons and even on a few occasions, people headed for the gas chambers: because to be violent in resistance is morally wrong. That is a very warped view of the world.

I do not believe that Hamas is a terrorist organization.
I do not believe that Hamas is not a terrorist organization.
I am very uninformed on this issue, and as such, I have no opinion of my own outside of genocide bad, though I have opinions on others opinions.

I really can’t be bothered to unpack all of this, but it is, I agree, possible for a resistance movement to enact terrorist acts as part of their resistance. You can look at resistance movements such as the IRA and see that quite obviously. Oppression leads to violence, violent oppression leads to violent resistance. There’s no two ways about this.

Also: having opinions on others opinions without having any idea about the background information and knowledge on their opinions is, with respect, stupid (sorry).

Educate yourself and you will find you may form informed opinions that will give you a better steer on discussion points in this thread and in your life.

I am likely wrong about a lot.

We have all been there. It happens. That’s why you educate yourself and go do some reading, cross reference sources, study what‘s being said across the globe and come to your own conclusions. As a historian and researcher, it has taken me thirty years to build these skills since childhood, start now and you will be able to debate well in future.

Everything I say should be taken with a grain of salt.

Yes, until such time that you come back with evidence and citations. That would help your cause, frankly.

I believe that everyone should consider the possibility that they are wrong.

Buddy, I will consider the possibility I am wrong on genocide when I am dead in the ground and six feet under. Stuff that. I am not wrong on this. I have done enough reading on genocide throughout my life (reading on the Holocaust, Srebrenica, and a whole host of recent conflicts including Gaza and Sudan - which numerically is absolutely the worst of the modern day atrocities).

The bottom line here for people coming into a political debate: cite sources, be informed, be honest, and be prepared to be wrong if the evidence finds you wrong.

 

[Eroil]

You might as well just admit you’re a Zionist and be done with it, to be honest.

Bad faith debating when you’re advocating positions that are:

1. Easily disproved
2. Morally reprehensible
3. Indistinguishable from Zionist talking points

…is obviously going to result with the vast majority of us turning to you and calling you out for what you are, and what you are peddling.

Obvious Zionist is Zionist.

I swear, so much of the pro Israel positions taken up on the internet that are pervaded with “both sides” arguments are no such thing: the both sides argument is there to mask the true intent, which is for Israel to “win” over Palestine and eradicate the Palestinian cause.

We see you, and others like you, for what you are. Cheerio.

Well I thought I was already blocked by you, anyways if I were to be a Zionist with Zionist beliefs would that immidiately make my arguments invalid?

 

[Chou Toshio]

Well I thought I was already blocked by you, anyways if I were to be a Zionist with Zionist beliefs would that immidiately make my arguments invalid?

Yes. There’s no sense in trying to deprogram fascists. Only sensible aim is to defeat them.

edit: If you were a Zionist. Theoretically

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

Well I thought I was already blocked by you, anyways if I were to be a Zionist with Zionist beliefs would that immidiately make my arguments invalid?

Yes.

Being Zionist is supporting the forced displacement and genocide of an indigenous population. I am against colonialism, which is what Zionism actually is, so yes, in my view, being Zionist and making Zionist arguments renders your views invalid.

And yes, you are on ignore, but it was worth now making it clear to you that I find your viewpoints repulsive, and whether you think you’re a Zionist or not, you are literally repeating Zionism’s biggest (morally bankrupt) arguments which I again find repulsive, and deplorable.

The door’s over there, as I said earlier. There is definitely not room in the fandom for genocide apologists.

 

[Divine Retribution]

Well I thought I was already blocked by you, anyways if I were to be a Zionist with Zionist beliefs would that immidiately make my arguments invalid?

Zionism is a worldview built on invalid beliefs, so yes. It wouldn't be that your beliefs are invalid because you're a Zionist, it would be that you would have to believe invalid things to be a Zionist in the first place.

 

[Eroil]

Yes.

Being Zionist is supporting the forced displacement and genocide of an indigenous population. I am against colonialism, which is what Zionism actually is, so yes, in my view, being Zionist and making Zionist arguments renders your views invalid.

And yes, you are on ignore, but it was worth now making it clear to you that I find your viewpoints repulsive, and whether you think you’re a Zionist or not, you are literally repeating Zionism’s biggest (morally bankrupt) arguments which I again find repulsive, and deplorable.

The door’s over there, as I said earlier. There is definitely not room in the fandom for genocide apologists.

That is unfortunate. Not seeing other people as people, is where violence becomes legitimized and we get to these places at the first place.
You believe yourself to be valid in your beliefs that delegitimizing others for the way they think makes them less than human and worth no sympathy. Which very quickly spirals into deserving of suffering. Which very quickly spirals into deserving of death. I am not saying that you or anyone else here would kill a person, but it is the same ideology that would bring someone to kill.

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

That is unfortunate. Not seeing other people as people, is where violence becomes legitimized and we get to these places at the first place.
You believe yourself to be valid in your beliefs that delegitimizing others for the way they think makes them less than human and worth no sympathy. Which very quickly spirals into deserving of suffering. Which very quickly spirals into deserving of death. I am not saying that you or anyone else here would kill a person, but it is the same ideology that would bring someone to kill.

My dear chap, you are trying to legitimise a movement that in eleven months has displaced 2.3 million people, dropped more bombs on a virtually unarmed population than Britain dropped on Germany between 1942 and 1944 in WW2 and has killed at least 41,000 people, of which 17,000 are children.

Who’s killing who here?

I’m not delegitimising the people who are zionists. I am saying I am not going to discuss this matter with someone who very likely is one, because I deplore the views they are defending.

What a pity that the logic you’ve outlined above isn’t applied to the Palestinians by the Israelis.

Ashamed of nothing, offended by everything.

Zionism and its supporters in a nutshell.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

I agree with most of what Myzozoa said in their post, yet there's one thing that I don't understand. I'd be glad to have it explained.

Hamas is not a terrorist organization, it was the government of a territory for over a decade and came to power by the intervention of Israel itself.

Just because Hamas was the government of Gaza doesn't mean it's automatically not a terrorist group. Look at Israel's government. Just because it's the government of Israel, does that mean it's not a terrorist group? No.

I also don't get why the second part of your argument holds any water. Simply saying "Israel put Hamas in power" is true, yet does not mean that what Hamas did to Israeli civilians is excusable in my eyes. I just want some clarification. Thanks.

I'd like to stress that I am not saying both sides are equally at fault with this, nor am I trying to justify Israeli genocide in Gaza. The IDF's actions have been horrendous and the US should cut support and place sanctions on Israel as soon as humanly possible, as well as aid in humanitarian efforts in the whole of Gaza. That doesn't mean that Hamas has free rein to kill civilians.

 

[MrHands]

That is unfortunate. Not seeing other people as people, is where violence becomes legitimized and we get to these places at the first place.
You believe yourself to be valid in your beliefs that delegitimizing others for the way they think makes them less than human and worth no sympathy. Which very quickly spirals into deserving of suffering. Which very quickly spirals into deserving of death. I am not saying that you or anyone else here would kill a person, but it is the same ideology that would bring someone to kill.

Hey so if you were to ask a person on this forum how they feel about competitive Pokémon the responses would pretty much exclusively be positive right? Maybe you'll have some old timers who retired a while ago talk shit but every single person on this forum will have at least some level of fondness or nostalgia for comp Pokes. If you were to start a topic here saying competitive Pokémon is bad, everyone should play Overwatch instead well... you might get some sympathetic responses but overwhelmingly your points, regardless of valid or not, would be in such an extreme minority that people wouldn't even pay attention. It would be a waste of your time to argue that people here should play Overwatch over Pokémon. Probably close to 100% of the people here reading this have already decided Pokémon > Overwatch.

Now what if you were to poll random people in the US. Statistically speaking Overwatch has similar eSport attention and more prize money than what VGC gets (and Smogon seems to get even less). Overwatch is, to the average person, just a more appealing game for pvp. However whatever perks and benefits there is to playing Overwatch competitively, no matter how long you write paragraphs, no matter how valid you consider your points, you will never convince anyone here that Overwatch is better than Smogon. This is just not a reasonable place to make those kinds of arguments, even though globally Overwatch pvp is just as popular as Pokémon.

What does this have to do with anything? This forum is made up of mostly Gen Z with a handful of bitter old Millennials scattered in. People in this demographic are left leaning, and the particular bunch here are the tech-savvy anime watching art making nerds who somehow decided that min-maxing a Pikachu's EVs is actually a valid use of their time. This group is almost universally far left leaning, evidence being the literal zero Republicans or even moderates who post here.

So I'll address the elephant in the room. If your views on Palestine / Israel is anything other than "Israel = nazi genocide bad and Palestine = innocent of everything" it is an absolute waste of time to post here. You will be outnumbered ten to one and really you'll just get locked in endless wall of text battles with people who have zero intention of good faith discussion. If you want to have serious debates about the Israel Palestine issue, there are infinitely better places to do so. Save yourself the energy here and relax. This is a tiny forum and this topic is made up of like 15 people, probably 3-4 of them are 90% of the posts. None of this matters. You'll never "post hard enough" to convince people here your posts are valid so imo you're better off not wasting the time.

 

[Sabelette]

That is unfortunate. Not seeing other people as people, is where violence becomes legitimized and we get to these places at the first place.
You believe yourself to be valid in your beliefs that delegitimizing others for the way they think makes them less than human and worth no sympathy. Which very quickly spirals into deserving of suffering. Which very quickly spirals into deserving of death. I am not saying that you or anyone else here would kill a person, but it is the same ideology that would bring someone to kill.

Ironic because zionists literally do not believe palestinians are people but go off i guess
https://mondoweiss.net/2023/03/pale...-many-jewish-israelis-approve-settler-pogrom/

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

Hey so if you were to ask a person on this forum how they feel about competitive Pokémon the responses would pretty much exclusively be positive right? Maybe you'll have some old timers who retired a while ago talk shit but every single person on this forum will have at least some level of fondness or nostalgia for comp Pokes. If you were to start a topic here saying competitive Pokémon is bad, everyone should play Overwatch instead well... you might get some sympathetic responses but overwhelmingly your points, regardless of valid or not, would be in such an extreme minority that people wouldn't even pay attention. It would be a waste of your time to argue that people here should play Overwatch over Pokémon. Probably close to 100% of the people here reading this have already decided Pokémon > Overwatch.

Now what if you were to poll random people in the US. Statistically speaking Overwatch has similar eSport attention and more prize money than what VGC gets (and Smogon seems to get even less). Overwatch is, to the average person, just a more appealing game for pvp. However whatever perks and benefits there is to playing Overwatch competitively, no matter how long you write paragraphs, no matter how valid you consider your points, you will never convince anyone here that Overwatch is better than Smogon. This is just not a reasonable place to make those kinds of arguments, even though globally Overwatch pvp is just as popular as Pokémon.

What does this have to do with anything? This forum is made up of mostly Gen Z with a handful of bitter old Millennials scattered in. People in this demographic are left leaning, and the particular bunch here are the tech-savvy anime watching art making nerds who somehow decided that min-maxing a Pikachu's EVs is actually a valid use of their time. This group is almost universally far left leaning, evidence being the literal zero Republicans or even moderates who post here.

So I'll address the elephant in the room. If your views on Palestine / Israel is anything other than "Israel = nazi genocide bad and Palestine = innocent of everything" it is an absolute waste of time to post here. You will be outnumbered ten to one and really you'll just get locked in endless wall of text battles with people who have zero intention of good faith discussion. If you want to have serious debates about the Israel Palestine issue, there are infinitely better places to do so. Save yourself the energy here and relax. This is a tiny forum and this topic is made up of like 15 people, probably 3-4 of them are 90% of the posts. None of this matters. You'll never "post hard enough" to convince people here your posts are valid so imo you're better off not wasting the time.

So equating the discussion of competitive gameplay online with the literal genocide and displacement of human beings is a new one on me. Wow. You could not come across worse in that post. Inhuman even.

Staggeringly tone deaf, utterly indulgent, monstrous to ignore obvious facts. Your family must be so proud.

 

[MrHands]

So equating the discussion of competitive gameplay online with the literal genocide and displacement of human beings is a new one on me. Wow. You could not come across worse in that post. Inhuman even.

Staggeringly tone deaf, utterly indulgent, monstrous to ignore obvious facts. Your family must be so proud.

Oh gosh you're so angry.

I am 100% sure having a conversation with you on Palestine has absolutely zero merit. You, yourself, must be well aware that anything a person posts besides "Israel genocidal and bad" is just an excuse for you to wall-of-text why they're wrong right? Like you exist here merely to tell others to think like you, not to actually trade facts and evidence and have a political discussion. Here on Smogon it's almost universally pro-Palestine, to the point where people will defend slaughter of civilians, so you can say anything and people will clap as long as you post a picture of a watermelon or whatever. But in the real world it is actually possible to have constructive conversations where you discuss the failure of both sides to reach an agreement, where you can condemn the genocidal actions of Israel while condemning the civilian atrocities committed by Hamas. You can even talk about a realistic path to peace.

But here on this forum? There is no room for that kind of talk. Even just sheepishly saying "Hamas attacking a music festival isn't okay" has to be toned down with "but I'm not supporting Israel!!" because this topic is such an absurd hot button that people will jump at the throats of anyone who tries to constructively criticize literal terrorism.

 

[Divine Retribution]

Here on Smogon it's almost universally pro-Palestine, to the point where people will defend slaughter of civilians,

Can you go ahead and link to some of these posts defending the slaughter of civilians?