Gouging Fire is now banned: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-suspect-process-round-13-voting.3750689/post-10256635
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Well, to anybody who was doom and gloom about things getting banned, uhhh, U wrong now.
Now let's hope the community does it again for kyurem
You say this semi-jokingly, and yet the nature of bans throughout the entirety of SV has been kinda weird in that sense (a mostly good sense, mind you). The first 5 or so suspects ended in only one (Chien-Pao) getting the shaft, with largely every other ban in that timeframe taking QB action (side note: I bust a lung is spasmodic laughter at the idea that the council "hasn't abused their power", as if that isn't one of the only ways they've gotten tiering action done for time immemorial). As a counterbalance, there have been a lot more mentions of moves getting banned over mons getting banned, which I'm actually all for (and why I drew ire at Salt Cure lo these past couple of years). I said something similar to Finch in Discord DMs, which I will illuminate one of the contents of for your viewing convenience:
Needless to say, this is why I'm an advocate of a Tera Blast suspect (iirc 658Greninja put the terms in a post better worded than I could ever hope to construct) - but like I said to Finch in those DMs, the fact that such action has been forced on moves and not mons more frequently this generation speaks to how our... frankly antiquated tiering policy, and the "muh artificial nerfs" argument that forestalled a G6 Kings Shield ban in place of Aegi's banishment from the tier (and blunder admitting in 4k to what might as well be election interference...), with one of the notable arguments against KS Ban (and I promise I'm not joking here...) that 'it'd artificially nerf Smeargle'. Que? A mon that would give naria two shits when it's main sets at the time were Spore and Hazard Spam? And you don't think the loss of Shed Tail isn't similar in a 'I mean it could have ran this given it's weird role' kind of way? Sufficed to say, most if not all of this policy/argument(s) original mandate has been fundamentally expunged, and I don't want to hear any "slippery slope" counterarguments when A) this tier (and most others) has been a revolving door of around 20 or so different subjects, and B) we're talking *primarily* exclusive moves, or those to where the discrepancy between 'our most broken abusers' and mons that don't spare the move a passing glance is at it's most pronounced. Aegi was a 'broken abuser of KS' because it's was the way Stance Change worked. Smeargle... well, isn't.
As a semi-related aside: I draw ire at Salt Cure, because if by some event that Garganacl ends up back under fire for shifting metas and the like (I understand Kyurem's next suspect is all but a foregone conclusion, and I am a patient man, make no mistake), I would absolutely put Salt Cure under the microscope in place of the mon itself. There's two comparisons to be made here, the main one of which being past gen's blanket ban of Arena Trap (...stay with me here) in that it borderline invalidates certain types defensively - even Tera's of any role persuasion (offensive, defensive and the like) - and forces a state that invalidates mons that would generally afford being able to stay on the field, the only real difference is that one invalidates the switch, whereas the other forces it in a meta where hazard stack is so suffocated due to the ubiquity of Gholdengo. Hysterically enough, even Ghold' is a good example of a mon strangled by the lack of decision making that SC can bring to a game, and I've even seen a few instances of said mon running Covert Cloak just so they can do their jobs defensively thanks to it's typing. Now, forcing an item just so singular types and even frail-ish mons can actually do their jobs... sound like a certain Shed Shell y'all know, or Bloodmoon forcing that weird 'Tera Ghost NG Weezing' set way back when? In that same spirit, SC is almost like a mini-Tera in a way, without the trigger discipline of knowing that the rest of your team can't access a defensive Tera type they're likely running as a precaution (and even that is assuming said TT isn't Water or Steel). And to put a final exclamation point on the comparison between SC and Arena Trap - if the tiering action itself was ever aimed at Garg later down the road (itself merely a decent-ish defensive stopgap with an anti-status niche and de-facto resist to one of the modern game's most spammable STAB types in Ghost, if we're talking without SC) - who is to say that Eviolite Naclstack won't just step up to the plate to do something 90% similar? We saw the same thing happen with bloody Diglett of all mons (further limitations in tow), as did we (again) see Orthworm step up to the plate to fill Cyclizar's boots with Shed Tail shenanigans - all without the foresight of knowing Sceptile would have come back and just been Cyclizar 2.0 had we stuck to 'the totality of mons' as an argument (and before you say it: can it really be called Theorymonning when you see Sceptile is only 1 speed slower than Icke Bike over there, when all a lot of teams needed from behind a sub was one turn, and Orth's was that much slower than both of the above?).
I'll admit this post was longer than I thought it'd be... but hey, thoughts be thoughts.
I'm not going to respond to all of this, because frankly a lot of it is just mindless yapping (wtf does this have to do with my post that you responded to at all, I was reffering to individuals who complained that things never got banned, which this suspect shows the community absolutely can ban things if they want to), but no, if garganacl was banned, then naclstack would not replace it. It relies on eviolite to have any sort of bulk (60/100/65 isn't cutting it, the physical defense is only okay and the special defense is bad), which means it cannot actually switch into anything, and is WAY more passive due to having a very low attack stat (60 is not cutting it), which means the curse set which the ban garg people have a problem with wouldn't work at all.
Comparing it to diglett or orthworm is very misleading, diglett at least has 90 speed, which means its decently fast in order to trap things, while orthworm had earth eater to switch in and great physical bulk+typing to get a shed tail off. Naclstack isn't anywhere comparable to those two.
91% supermajority is crazy. We haven't had that since Ursaluna-Bloodmoon's test
I'd say zama is more necessary
I'm in favor of suspecting Tera Blast next, I think now is the right time for it. Tera Blast adds nothing good to the tier except more unnecessary variance, which was a large part of the reasoning behind the 
ban, and why Gen 9 is so disliked overall. It doesn't fix the problem totally but it is a nice compromise. Banning Tera Blast would also make it possible to free both 
and 
, which I think are overall good additions to the tier. Regieleki is another viable spinner in a meta starved for hazard control and Volcarona checks 
quite well.
ban, and why Gen 9 is so disliked overall. It doesn't fix the problem totally but it is a nice compromise. Banning Tera Blast would also make it possible to free both and , which I think are overall good additions to the tier. Regieleki is another viable spinner in a meta starved for hazard control and Volcarona checks quite well.
I mean I won't lie, I did kinda let my thoughts trail off there... although I will say that I don't think the idea of 'we never ban things' needed a rebuttal given prior gens. (P.S: Base Diglett has 95 speed, not 90).
As for Naclstack, remind me: how many people actually had Diglett on the brain between people starting to realise Dugtrio was a problem in prior gens due to AT, and people turning around saying 'now that you mention it, AT itself might be the problem.'? I think it's somewhat of a mistake for either of us to be dismissing Naclstack outright as a matter of fact, if people's response to Diglett happened during the overlapping circumstances concerning Duggy and AT (P.S: I say 'past gens' specifically because I wasn't around during G5 and G6 meta). I also think the speed stat argument is missing the point slightly, because power creep means that such a stat has gone from OK-ish in a meta where base 100 scarfers are considered 'kinda fast', to a meta where Base 110's and 125's are more common than ever, and according to VR Deo-S, the 2nd fastest mon in the entire game is A tier at time of writing, and is somehow not broken (not that I'd want it to be).
As for mentions of the Curse set... eh. Again, I'm still climbing atm, but I'm fairly sure I've seen more Iron Defense sets than Curse ones (not that I dismiss the thought of Curse sets entirely, it's top of the analysis sets for a reason), so I don't think what sets Stack' could actually replicate is completely out of the question.
Last thing for now: I wasn't directly trying to compare Garg/SC to Orthworm, I was only pointing to the valid precedence we've set for ourselves in banning exclusive(-ish) moves in place of whole mons. And yes, Earth Eater is a factor, but that's more just a nice thing it happens to have on the side rather than something that it directly needed for Shed Tail to function. EQ's weren't the only thing that lost to the move, after all.
ngl, im surprised there wasn't much of a pro- sentiment, so either people just really hate it, or people prefer axeing it over inaction, the latter of which was definitely my personal take on the suspect. Interestingly, and perhaps unshocking to many, no one really seems to be satisfied with this ban so far, with many wanting stuff like to go next. (imo is the only mon likely to go next, stuff like a 
or 
ban just don't make sense rn)
On Tera Blast, my thoughts are that it freeing ubers isn't a good enough arguement, (does anyone even like having around?) and that not enough mons abuse tera blast for it to do much, (iirc on most ou mons that use it, its around 12-8%, with only 
, 
, and 
reaching the twenties in usage, and the mon with the highest tblast usage is 
at 69%) and that while it could reduce the general insanity of the tier, all it does is nerf a few good abusers (also known as an nerf), while many a broken continues on without caring about tblast being banned. (tbf, it could be a similar amount of change as banning a broken, its just that i don't think its necessary, at least rn, if there were more abusers of it, id be more for a tblast suspect/ban)
sentiment, so either people just really hate it, or people prefer axeing it over inaction, the latter of which was definitely my personal take on the suspect. Interestingly, and perhaps unshocking to many, no one really seems to be satisfied with this ban so far, with many wanting stuff like to go next. (imo is the only mon likely to go next, stuff like a or ban just don't make sense rn)On Tera Blast, my thoughts are that it freeing ubers isn't a good enough arguement, (does anyone even like having
around?) and that not enough mons abuse tera blast for it to do much, (iirc on most ou mons that use it, its around 12-8%, with only , , and reaching the twenties in usage, and the mon with the highest tblast usage is at 69%) and that while it could reduce the general insanity of the tier, all it does is nerf a few good abusers (also known as an nerf), while many a broken continues on without caring about tblast being banned. (tbf, it could be a similar amount of change as banning a broken, its just that i don't think its necessary, at least rn, if there were more abusers of it, id be more for a tblast suspect/ban)
Honestly, I don't feel Tera Blast would even scratch the problem this format has. Yeah, it allows the odd Pokemon to cheese a win, or reverse some MUs, but it makes the Pokemon incredibly reliant on Tera, and it just hogs the slot.
On the other hand, most of the issues in the format right now get solved with a Tera Ban:
Personally, the original suspect test was called way too early, and the power creep since then, and playing in the format, has turned me against Tera. Strong mons able to reversal checks/counters, and breakers able to overwhelm even the most excessive of defensive checks provides a really unhealthy and chaotic format. I'd prefer to see a full Tera suspect (Hard Ban/DNB) over a tera blast suspect, as I don't think the latter really affects the format all that much. Without blast, there would still be stupidly strong tera mons. Some top tera abusers may gain new checks (Like Heatran to Volcarona) but I don't think it goes far enough to handle the format
On the other hand, most of the issues in the format right now get solved with a Tera Ban:
- Tera blast coverage where there shouldn't be (Tera Blast ban in effect)
- Inconsistent checks for threats (Gouging Fire, Volcarona and Kingambit come to mind)
- Powered up Breaking potential doing damage above the level of standard defensive counterplay (Gouging's banded sun set and Tera dark Gambit come to mind)
- Would unban a couple of spinners (Terapagos and Regieleki, the latter who comes with a tera blast ban anyway)
Personally, the original suspect test was called way too early, and the power creep since then, and playing in the format, has turned me against Tera. Strong mons able to reversal checks/counters, and breakers able to overwhelm even the most excessive of defensive checks provides a really unhealthy and chaotic format. I'd prefer to see a full Tera suspect (Hard Ban/DNB) over a tera blast suspect, as I don't think the latter really affects the format all that much. Without blast, there would still be stupidly strong tera mons. Some top tera abusers may gain new checks (Like Heatran to Volcarona) but I don't think it goes far enough to handle the format
Curse Garganacl is far more common than Iron Defense and this has been the case for a long time now.
And no, Naclstack would not be anywhere close to as good as Garganacl if Garganacl was banned. Comparing this to Dugtrio/Diglett with Arena Trap is very far off base. I implore you to lurk more if this is your take.
I would kindly ask the council to swiftly move on to the next suspect - A 91% super-majority for a ban in a settled meta is more indicative of the state of the tier rather than the actual mon itself.
hard agree, also:
yeah, eviolite is not making up for that 60/100/65 bulk it has. Especially in a world where knock off reigns supreme.
A 91% super-majority on a Pokemon who got well over a 4 on the survey makes sense regardless of the rest of the metagame.
Odds are we will begin discussing and act plenty quickly, but there nowhere near this degree of support on most other Pokemon in talks, with Kyurem, Gliscor, and Tera Blast being the only things that even registered on the survey. There will be another suspect I am sure, but your "indicative of the state of the tier" logic implies most people vote ban just for change, not due to something being broken, when this has been disproven by prior suspects (see: first Kyurem or Kingambit) when metagame conditions where worse than this.
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Finch, with respect, what are you talking about? GF recieved a score of 4.1 in the March survey and comfortably survived the first suspect on it and in the recent survey received a 4.2 and well, you know the rest. Furthermore, as tier leader, i'm sure you're aware that the only other time a mon has received over 4 and been suspect tested was Chien-Pao which received only a 69% ban. There has been no precedence for you to make that statement.
The difference is when Kyurem and Kingambit were suspected, all the DC's hadn't been released and this affected people's voting behavior. Many high level players have stipulated in the ban thread that GF is a symptom of wider issue(s).
Bad comparison. OLT qualifier survey is wayyyy more reliable than general community surveys, which we have stopped doing as frequently.
Also, Gouging Fire's set mix back then was limited and we saw a huge metagame response to it mid-suspect with the rise of Tera Fairy Tusk/Glisc/Pult etc. for Breaking Swipes. This was reflected in the thread, too.
You are comparing apples and oranges trying to liken this survey to that one when the people survey'd are entirely different.
POV in all things, my G. I'm not in a position to dismiss things could change. Neither of us should be.
ngl, im surprised there wasn't much of a pro-
On Tera Blast, my thoughts are that it freeing ubers isn't a good enough arguement, (does anyone even like having
I think it's worth making the distinction between 'this is unhealthy, but not broken' and 'I don't like this mon in general'. Take it from an ex-mini Trump supporter: it's like that meme "show me where in the constitution 'I hate this man' is grounds for impeachment" (yes, I know I said I wouldn't make political analogies given my first ban, but please let me have this one...).
I should add that (and this is why I hold SG in such contempt) there are a good subsect of us that will use a meta being un-fun as an argument for (or sometimes against) a ban... but what constitutes fun? Some derive pleasure from dominion, and I think a good example of this was the recent GFire suspect, where I found myself poking an eyebrow at the idea that Offensive Gouge was never a thing (or at the very least, Off. Gfire was so far in the rear view mirror because it turned out to be the only good Breaking Swipe user in the game). People innovated with offensive sets more after the fact, people got better (within whichever ELO bracket you might be thinking people are moving in and out of), and sure enough here we ended up (again, I neither agree nor disagree with the decision on a count of me only mostly being a lurker). There's a reason I made the comparison to FayaWizard on Discord between this thing and G7 Mosa suspect, where I specifically put a finer point on the timeframe that we didn't need USUM tutors to know that thing was busted like a wasting chattel. That innovation and optimisation was only a matter of time in a similar vein - but the one nagging question I will always have is 'how much of that can be seen as skill expression'? A form of fun? Speaking of which...
I'm going to make a similar distinction here and say that I think defensive Tera's are healthy for this meta (that aforementioned precaution is something that's become quite eye-opening for me in my attempts to ladder), but my problem with Tera Blast is that it ultimately bloats offensive Tera's to the point where teambuilding is simultaneously the laziest and the most obnoxious thing in the world (I feel once again similarly about Salt Cure where I don't feel as though I'm making decisions when I use the move so much as I'm making responses - kinda like how pre-G7 Scald is described). Y'all mention unpredictability, and I'm well aware a lot of this seems rich knowing that I'm sort of a 'when everything in this meta is fucking cracked, nothing is' kind of guy, but again - I don't feel like I'm making meaningful choices when I'm turning around to a mon's lack of coverage and saying 'eh, I'll just slap on a random ass Tera Type and TB - it'll be fine!'. Take, for example, that post of me "getting jumpscared by Tera Fairy Gfire" I mentioned yesterday: I still stand by the fact that not clicking Sub is on me, but in that scenario - Tera Fairy TB is (at least by comparison) such a non-committal option, as opposed to to either Dragon Claw (that without ProtoATK/Sun Boost isn't as strong as it should be), or Outrage that, while making up for the power discrepancy, is a far more exploitable move.
Do you see what I'm getting at? "Decision making" is the word of the day here - and with Defensive Tera's, I actually feel like I'm utilizing some kind of trigger discipline (this is one of the reason I'll defend Z-moves until my dying breath, but this isn't technically the meta/page for that). Just the concept of shifting types is a good form of healthy design philosophy, and a lot of the analysis pages have made that abundantly clear. But Game Freak just had to overextend and effectively circumvent coverage here. Notice how my wording has come from the POV of someone using these options, and not exclusively as as someone on the receiving end of them. See also why I compare TB to SC, and why I mention our outdated tiering policy.
I mean you are entitled to have any opinion you want, but some things are simply incorrect and trying to pass off being wrong as difference of opinion is not how...anything works...considering Iron Defense does not even register (and it is not all of "Other" either as Avalanche, Heavy Slam, etc. see play with Curse). The same goes for your Naclstack take -- it is not even viable in UU and there is no way it would be good in OU if Garganacl got banned.
As I said in last post, I implore you lurk more. You were banned seven years ago for a long series of posting violations that included littering metagame threads with misinformation and you even admitted you just started playing and have only hit 1300. Now is a good time to lurk around, play a bunch, get a feel for things before making assertions that simply do not line-up with reality.
Thank you for pointing out that I was one of the few users on the thread that predicted this and subsequently voted ban on the first pass.
Point out to me an example, this gen, of a mon getting over a 4 on a survey and getting above 70% (let alone 90%) on a suspect and it "making sense". You have no foundation to make the below claim especially when multiple high level players mentioned that they were voting ban not because of GF but because of the state of the meta and banning it was a step in the right direction
Well now that Gouging Fire is gone, what exactly improves here? For one, unfortunately Kyurem definitely improves having more opportunities to set up and more sub protect stuff being thrown around, and is very likely to be even more problematic. What else exactly gets better?
Almost every example of a Pokemon getting a 4 on a survey is right after releases and the Pokemon was quickbanned.
There was a clear focus on Gouging Fire being a broken Pokemon in the metagame. Metagame scores on the survey were not dramatically higher or lower. The numbers do not even support what you are saying, but you conveniently ignored that part of the survey curiously.
The funny thing is I literally agreed that we are likely to act aggressively and yet you still are playing this bizarre spin-zone game for some unknown reason. Give it a break. A ban happened. More tiering action is going to happen. Not everything needs to be an attack.