Serious The Politics Thread

[S.A.C. Martin]

Assuming Kamala wins, Biden will be remembered for selflessly stepping down (even though he was basically shoved) for the next generation, and for arguably being the most progressive president in the modern era. Similar to how Obama has near legendary status in the public eye despite the horrible atrocities he oversaw during his presidency. There are no good presidents when it comes to foreign policy.

41,000 Palestinians dead, that we know of, 2.3 million displaced, over 75,000 tons of American bombs dropped on an almost completely unarmed population, more than was used in the H bombs of Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.

No, he’s going down in history as Genocide Joe, who only pulled out of the race when it became apparent he was going to lose.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but some presidents are indeed worse than others when it comes to foreign policy.

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

This is not an objective take.

No, it is an objective take.

Whether you hate Biden or not, the average American is materially better off in Sept 2024 than Sept 2020.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/ec...years-ago-s-can-murky-picture-many-rcna156611

Wages

Now, consumers are largely left with the same buying power they had four years ago rather than having seen real income gains over that time that would have helped bolster their financial picture.

Jobs

Helping drive those wages up has been a historically strong job market where demand from employers has outstripped the supply of people willing or able to do those jobs. The unemployment ratehas fallen from 6.4% when Biden came into office to 4% in May after dropping to as low as 3.4% last year, the lowest in more than five decades. During Trump’s four years in office, unemployment also steadily declined to 3.5% before surging during the pandemic to nearly 15%.

Housing (buying)

While unemployment is historically low and wages have ticked up over the past year, housing remains one of the biggest economic pain points for consumers renting or trying to buy a home.

The affordability gap — an estimate of the difference between an area’s median household income and how much income is necessary to afford payments on a median-priced home in that area — is near a 10-year high in the U.S., according to an NBC News analysis of housing data.

Housing (renting)

Rents have increased 31% since the start of the pandemic to an average of nearly $2,000 a month, according to Zillow. The median household spent slightly over 29% of their income on rent in April compared to just under 28% before the pandemic.

Food

With the typical household spending about 11% of their disposable income on food, consumers have said that rising grocery prices have taken a particularly painful toll on their budgets. Food prices have risen around 25% over the past four years while Biden was in office. And while prices aren’t increasing as much as they were in 2022, they continue to rise.

Price of Gas (Petrol)

Gas prices are an ever-present metric of the economy for most consumers each time they drive past a gas station or fill up their tanks. Consumers were hit with a surge in gas prices in 2022 after Russia’s invasion of Ukraine roiled energy markets, sending the average price for a gallon of gas up to $4.62. Prices have been coming down over the past two years to an average of $3.42 as of June 17 — 12 cents lower than a year ago and the lowest level since 2021.

But average prices are still above their pre-pandemic levels, when a gallon of gas was around $2.45 in February of 2020.

I could go on. But NBC and a wide range of other sources seems to indicate that no, you as an American are, on balance, not better off on wages, jobs, housing, renting, food or gas prices. Which forms basically everyone’s experience of the country.

Do you lot on the right ever fact check yourselves before making bold statements, or has the last ten years of Donald Trump taught you all to just brazenly lie about easily fact checkable things in the name of trying to win a debate, rather than trying to have a good faith debate?

That is what defines “success.” Our domestic issues run our politics and frankly most people here don’t give a damn about foreign policy unless it’s American soldiers spilling American blood. Self-interest is numero uno in the human brain.

A pity that is not extended to Israeli soldiers spilling American blood.

But you are better off. That’s life. Often the only choices are status quo vs. regression. Not sure where the expectation came from that the opportunity to make major progress is always there. Timing is everything.

There is ALWAYS an opportunity to make major progress and break the cycle of negligence in any country’s politics. The only things which stop meaningful change are self interest, apathy and, in a democratic world spiralling towards the far right, fascism.

 

[juoean]

41,000 Palestinians dead, that we know of, 2.3 million displaced, over 75,000 tons of American bombs dropped on an almost completely unarmed population, more than was used in the H bombs of Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.

No, he’s going down in history as Genocide Joe, who only pulled out of the race when it became apparent he was going to lose.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but some presidents are indeed worse than others when it comes to foreign policy.

well, "how someone is remembered" varies based on who is doing the remembering and what are the conditions at the time of the remembering.

it is horrifying, but not surprising, how many amerikkkan presidents who have committed genocides are ~remembered fondly~ within the "us." of course in countries around the world that have survived us imperial wars interventions coups drone strikes etc etc, the way those amerikan presidents are remembered is very different.

by any reasonable measure, present day white euro-amerikan society is deeply fascist. 'our' local and state governments respond to black and indigenous people being murdered by police with increased police funding and militarization couple with state violence against protesters on a broad scale, and the vast majority of white euro-amerika cheers this response, either directly, or indirectly by victim blaming protesters for being insufficiently 'peaceful', name-calling as "rioters" and "looters" etc. white supremacist organizations like the ADL ("anti-defamation league") and to a lesser extent the HRC ("human rights campaign"), as well as 'similar' organizations globally, are held up as models of progressive humanism while they operate as trojan horses for us imperialist ventures. and of course, positing the us as the greatest country in the world etc when it is the most destructive empire in world history. although hitler himself is villified as part of the post-wwii euroamerikan image as "savior of the jews" etc, he is also severed from the centuries of euroamerikan genocides that led up to nazism, which are at best ignored / minimized / erased; while the core content of nazism pervades euroamerikan politics.

the fact that ronald reagan, bill clinton, george bush, barack obama, harry truman, etc, and even more strikingly when it comes to the "founding fathers", are memorialized in the ways they typically are is not a substantive comment on their qualities as presidents (they are all unambiguously war criminals), it is a reflection of the ideological conditions of this society. (similar applies to other war criminals like henry kissinger who received the nobel peace prize for his genocides.)

i have no interest in comparing genocides or commenting about whether joe bidens genocide against palestinians is "worse" than the many other us imperialist genocides or its 'internal' settler colonial genocides, but that rly is not related to "how genocide joe will be remembered" because the way presidents are remembered has been completely disconnected from reality for 250 years. ofc im not saying that this cant change and i hope that we do bring about a world in which the memory of us presidents will be reality based and not george washington couldnt tell a lie cherry tree nonsense, but if we do not succeed in doing so then genocide joe's "legacy" will be wrapped in glorifying settler mythologies just like all the presidents who came before him.

 

[Celticpride]

41,000 Palestinians dead, that we know of, 2.3 million displaced, over 75,000 tons of American bombs dropped on an almost completely unarmed population, more than was used in the H bombs of Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.

No, he’s going down in history as Genocide Joe, who only pulled out of the race when it became apparent he was going to lose.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but some presidents are indeed worse than others when it comes to foreign policy.

Biden pulled out solely because he was too old. That’s it. Attributing it to anything else is wishcasting at best.

You can keep your personal opinions on a president in whatever regard you want. But 10 years from now, the “Genocide Joe” moniker will be actively remembered as defining Biden by maybe 2% of Americans. This is a conflict on the other side of the world, that US troops are not involved in.

Are you trying to realistically forecast how Biden will be remembered by the population at large, or how you personally think he should be remembered? Those are two very different questions with very different answers.

 

[juoean]

Biden pulled out solely because he was too old. That’s it. Attributing it to anything else is wishcasting at best.

You can keep your personal opinions on a president in whatever regard you want. But 10 years from now, the “Genocide Joe” moniker will be actively remembered as defining Biden by maybe 2% of Americans. This is a conflict on the other side of the world, that US troops are not involved in.

Are you trying to realistically forecast how Biden will be remembered by the population at large, or how you personally think he should be remembered? Those are two very different questions with very different answers.

about 4% of the worlds population lives within us borders. "forecasting" that his war crimes will be whitewashed by futre generations of amerikans as have the war crimes of 40+ prior presidents is [not less reasonable than any other 'forecast'], but that is not the case for how he will be remembered by the 'population at large', most of whom do not live within us borders and have no reason to pay attention to our election cycles the #drama around biden withdrawing etc, what the rest of the world pays attention to is the impacts they feel from us imperialist terror.

idk if this was just poor word choice or the typical amerikan exceptionalism that pretends that the "us" is the entire world, but either way it is useful to emphasize just how wide the gap is between the mythological amerikan self image and how much this empire and its agents are hated around the world.

 

[Celticpride]

about 4% of the worlds population lives within us borders. "forecasting" that his war crimes will be whitewashed by futre generations of amerikans as have the war crimes of 40+ prior presidents is [not less reasonable than any other 'forecast'], but that is not the case for how he will be remembered by the 'population at large', most of whom do not live within us borders and have no reason to pay attention to our election cycles the #drama around biden withdrawing etc, what the rest of the world pays attention to is the impacts they feel from us imperialist terror.

idk if this was just poor word choice or the typical amerikan exceptionalism that pretends that the "us" is the entire world, but either way it is useful to emphasize just how wide the gap is between the mythological amerikan self image and how much this empire and its agents are hated around the world.

The data clearly says otherwise, US approval is positive as of a recent global Gallup poll. Doesn’t seem so hated around the world to me.

 

[Blue glass]

I find these graphs really interesting, Trump was the only one with a negative rating of approval and Biden's approval in Russia increased while in Ukraine it decreased from 2022 to 2023. This survey was conducted two weeks after the Hamas attack so I expect his disapproval to grow because of the ongoing genocide and his debate perfomance, if they repeat this survey for his last year.

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

The data clearly says otherwise, US approval is positive as of a recent global Gallup poll. Doesn’t seem so hated around the world to me.

lol at your selective reporting:

Also imagine having a lower approval rating than Germany…

 

[adjectivenoun]

41,000 Palestinians dead, that we know of, 2.3 million displaced, over 75,000 tons of American bombs dropped on an almost completely unarmed population, more than was used in the H bombs of Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.

No, he’s going down in history as Genocide Joe, who only pulled out of the race when it became apparent he was going to lose.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but some presidents are indeed worse than others when it comes to foreign policy.

The Palestinians who survive this genocide will certainly remember him as an enabler of their suffering, and rightfully so. As for the rest of the world? Only time will tell, but I suspect that the other nations of the world will care more about how the United States interfaced with them during his presidency than his handling of a region that many citizens probably couldn't find on a map before October 7th, callous as that may be.

 

[Celticpride]

lol at your selective reporting:

View attachment 668441

Also imagine having a lower approval rating than Germany…

There was no selective reporting, 40% approve, 36% disapprove, 24% neutral/no opinion, which seems positive to mixed at worst. And nothing to support “wide the gap is between the mythological amerikan self image and how much this empire and its agents are hated around the world.”

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

The Palestinians who survive this genocide will certainly remember him as an enabler of their suffering, and rightfully so. As for the rest of the world? Only time will tell, but I suspect that the other nations of the world will care more about how the United States interfaced with them during his presidency than his handling of a region that many citizens probably couldn't find on a map before October 7th, callous as that may be.

It is a pretty callous take, and I would say another instance of US centric thinking.

I guarantee you that outside of the USA there is much anger at how they are operating, and it’s not just about Gaza.

There was no selective reporting, 40% approve, 36% disapprove, 24% neutral/no opinion, which seems positive to mixed at worst.

You know you were putting forward the view that US approval is positive?

Your link states the data is about USA’s international leadership.

So yes, absolutely selective.

It’s not the same thing at all.

https://www.statista.com/statistics...-states-worldwide-country/#statisticContainer

This is more in line with what you’re actually talking about.

Of the 34 countries in which the survey was conducted, Poland was the country where people had the most favorable view of the United States, with more than 85 percent. Tunisia was the country with the least favorable view.

And nothing to support “wide the gap is between the mythological amerikan self image and how much this empire and its agents are hated around the world.”

I mean I am doing the citations for you at this point:

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/06/11/views-of-the-u-s/

Overall, views of the U.S. are more positive than negative across the 34 countries surveyed. A median of 54% hold a favorable opinion of the U.S., while a median of 31% have an unfavorable opinion.
Poles are most likely to evaluate the U.S. positively: 86% hold a favorable view, though this share has declined 7 percentage points since last year. Half or more express a positive view in Hungary, Italy and the UK. In the other European countries surveyed, views of the U.S. are roughly split.
In the Asia-Pacific region, 70% or more rate the U.S. positively in Japan, the Philippines, South Korea and Thailand. In contrast, half or more see the U.S. unfavorably in Australia, Malaysia and Singapore.
The U.S. receives the lowest ratings of the survey in Tunisia and Turkey, where 80% or more have a negative opinion. Roughly three-quarters of Israelis have a positive view of the U.S.
Publics in the sub-Saharan African and Latin American countries surveyed tend to view the U.S. favorably.

I would note that - maybe unsurprisingly - but those countries with the most influence from the US by way of military or air or both against mutual “enemies” seem to be the most positive and skew the overall media significantly.

Still, you are correct insomuch that it’s more positive from the countries in that list than negative.

I wonder what happens to the score if the other missing 100 or so countries are added…

 

[RaikouLover]

No, it is an objective take.

I could go on. But NBC and a wide range of other sources seems to indicate that no, you as an American are, on balance, not better off on wages, jobs, housing, renting, food or gas prices. Which forms basically everyone’s experience of the country.

Do you lot on the right ever fact check yourselves before making bold statements, or has the last ten years of Donald Trump taught you all to just brazenly lie about easily fact checkable things in the name of trying to win a debate, rather than trying to have a good faith debate?

I am not “on the right.” Is someone projecting with these right wing talking points?

Four years ago, thousands of Americans were dying per week. Businesses were closing everywhere. Unemployment was at 15%. The supply lines were halted, leading to food and fuel shortages. Markets were raided for goddamn toilet paper.

But according to the right wing talking points you are parroting, rent and food were cheaper so let’s elect Trump and do the whole thing again!!

We fired Trump’s ass in 2020 for a reason. We aren’t going back.

A pity that is not extended to Israeli soldiers spilling American blood.

Yes, it is a pity. It is what it is; human nature.

There is ALWAYS an opportunity to make major progress and break the cycle of negligence in any country’s politics. The only things which stop meaningful change are self interest, apathy and, in a democratic world spiralling towards the far right, fascism.

Self interest is inevitably human nature. It ain’t changing anytime soon.

 

[ant4456]

Biden objectively did not do well with COVID.

The deaths the following year were about the same as 2020, with a bit less in the winter time with the Summer season being far, far deadlier than the 2020 one.

Trump did pretty bad with the pandemic, but Biden only got bailed out by the vaccine. He didn't even like, really do a lockdown.

 

[SittinGamer]

rent and food were cheaper so let’s elect Trump and do the whole thing again!!

Ciriticizing the Democratic Party is not the same as an endorsement of Trump, and I don't know how many times you need to be told by almost every single leftist in the thread that they are holding their nose and voting for Dems because the alternative is worse. I yet again stress the word almost, as it has been ignored multiple times, before some gotcha is given about a poster who is too genocide pilled to vote.

 

[Cancel cult]

Biden objectively did not do well with COVID.

The deaths the following year were about the same as 2020, with a bit less in the winter time with the Summer season being far, far deadlier than the 2020 one.

View attachment 668492

Trump did pretty bad with the pandemic, but Biden only got bailed out by the vaccine. He didn't even like, really do a lockdown.

to be fair, if he did call for another lockdown, would people listen? furthermore, a lockdown would worsen the economy.

 

[Divine Retribution]

Ciriticizing the Democratic Party is not the same as an endorsement of Trump, and I don't know how many times you need to be told by almost every single leftist in the thread that they are holding their nose and voting for Dems because the alternative is worse. I yet again stress the word almost, as it has been ignored multiple times, before some gotcha is given about a poster who is too genocide pilled to vote.

This is basically the liberal playbook in this thread, though. Ostensibly, arguing in bad faith is against the rules of the thread, and yet every single liberal I see engage here argues in extremely bad faith and then projects that onto whoever they're arguing with. I guess it's okay as long as you accuse the other guy of also arguing in bad faith?

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

This is basically the liberal playbook in this thread, though. Ostensibly, arguing in bad faith is against the rules of the thread, and yet every single liberal I see engage here argues in extremely bad faith and then projects that onto whoever they're arguing with. I guess it's okay as long as you accuse the other guy of also arguing in bad faith?

Define “liberal”.

I bloody hate it when people put labels on other people. Maybe I am guilty of that line of rhetoric too though:

I am not “on the right.” Is someone projecting with these right wing talking points?

I mean you write like a right winger, you give out right wing talking points, you’re ostensibly not left wing leaning from where I am sitting and typing.

So my apologies if you don’t consider yourself “right wing” but I’m pretty much left of centre (British left - known as the “family socialist” - !) and you are definitely to the right of me! By all means occupy that middle ground if that’s what you want to do.

 

[Divine Retribution]

Define “liberal”.

I bloody hate it when people put labels on other people. Maybe I am guilty of that line of rhetoric too though:

In this context I'm referring to the people arguing that the status quo of American politics, especially foreign policy, is desirable, or at least acceptable, and that major systemic problems either don't exist or are "inevitable parts of human nature" (read a fucking book lol, here's a good one), and any criticism of neoliberal institutions such as the Democratic party is tantamount to supporting conservatism and/or fascism, because those are the only two options. These are hallmarks of neoliberal ideology.

I don't love resorting to labels either but I'm literally not allowed to name the specific people I'm referring to or my post gets deleted, so this will have to do.

 

[SittinGamer]

Define “liberal”.

I bloody hate it when people put labels on other people. Maybe I am guilty of that line of rhetoric too though:



I mean you write like a right winger, you give out right wing talking points, you’re ostensibly not left wing leaning from where I am sitting and typing.

So my apologies if you don’t consider yourself “right wing” but I’m pretty much left of centre (British left - known as the “family socialist” - !) and you are definitely to the right of me! By all means occupy that middle ground if that’s what you want to do.

In an American perspective, RaikouLover is not a right winger. America's left wing party is extremely to the right of most left parties when plotted on political alignment charts, and forgive me for being too lazy to provide evidence. He has consistently supported Democrats throughout his posting history, and solely not being as vehemently against the genocide as you does not make one immediately right wing. For all of the silliness, he is ultimately correct, that the average American citizen either does not care about Gaza or it at the very least will not actually impact their vote when shit hits the fan on election day. We could plausibly argue that upholding the imperialist interests of the US is right winger no matter what, but we're then defining like 95% of the US as right wing and isn't really useful to American left and right in colloquial terms. In the context of modern American politics, though, he is 100% not a right winger.

While I may disagree with him on the effectiveness of the Democrats, what we all acquiesce to for the most part on this thread is that on Election Day there WILL be two choices, and the only power we have that day specifically is to vote ourselves and spread the message to others. Accusing him of being right wing would be saying he wants Trump to win, and I can assure you with confidence this is not the case.

 

[juoean]

lmao i did not intend to start a discussion of int'l polls about us favorability, did not even know these existed. even polls taken within the us are highly questionable as has been discussed repeatedly in this thread and thats in a "rich country" with comparatively very high rates of internet and phone access, cant even imagine what methodology is being used here, but i rly dont have the interest to investigate the details of these poll(s) to be able to get into this.
[my comment was j from the pov of sporadic, not-representative and also somewhat out of date indirect knowledge from platense family, convos w friends or acquaintences migrant families, and im sure also influenced somewhat by media as we all are]

what i will say is that 1 yes propoganda systems are global especially in the 21st century and we see this in the fascist resurgence that extends even to the colonized world, eg bolsonaro milei for electoral examples not that thats the best measure; and 2 even if the 40-45% plurality of us approval were accurate, this would "still" be a very wide gap in comparison to the approval within the "us"

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

In an American perspective, RaikouLover is not a right winger. America's left wing party is extremely to the right of most left parties when plotted on political alignment charts, and forgive me for being too lazy to provide evidence. He has consistently supported Democrats throughout his posting history, and solely not being as vehemently against the genocide as you does not make one immediately right wing. For all of the silliness, he is ultimately correct, that the average American citizen either does not care about Gaza or it at the very least will not actually impact their vote when shit hits the fan on election day. We could plausibly argue that upholding the imperialist interests of the US is right winger no matter what, but we're then defining like 95% of the US as right wing and isn't really useful to American left and right in colloquial terms. In the context of modern American politics, though, he is 100% not a right winger.

While I may disagree with him on the effectiveness of the Democrats, what we all acquiesce to for the most part on this thread is that on Election Day there WILL be two choices, and the only power we have that day specifically is to vote ourselves and spread the message to others. Accusing him of being right wing would be saying he wants Trump to win, and I can assure you with confidence this is not the case.

It seems insane to me that democrats in the US is equated with Labour in Britain then - by that comparison we are occupying the centre line, the Democrats are about a mile away right and Trump/Republicans are somewhere on the right in the hazy distance.

 

[Cancel cult]

Wait. We are thinking about this all wrong. The US is sending lots of weapons to Israel...

Weapons that cost TAXPAYER DOLLARS!

This is how we get people to care about the crisis in Palestine. Not by telling them there is a genocide happening, but by telling them that it is costing them money.




Jesus Christ, we live in a dystopia.

 

[ant4456]

In an American perspective, RaikouLover is not a right winger. America's left wing party is extremely to the right of most left parties when plotted on political alignment charts, and forgive me for being too lazy to provide evidence. He has consistently supported Democrats throughout his posting history, and solely not being as vehemently against the genocide as you does not make one immediately right wing. For all of the silliness, he is ultimately correct, that the average American citizen either does not care about Gaza or it at the very least will not actually impact their vote when shit hits the fan on election day. We could plausibly argue that upholding the imperialist interests of the US is right winger no matter what, but we're then defining like 95% of the US as right wing and isn't really useful to American left and right in colloquial terms. In the context of modern American politics, though, he is 100% not a right winger.

While I may disagree with him on the effectiveness of the Democrats, what we all acquiesce to for the most part on this thread is that on Election Day there WILL be two choices, and the only power we have that day specifically is to vote ourselves and spread the message to others. Accusing him of being right wing would be saying he wants Trump to win, and I can assure you with confidence this is not the case.

You can make the argument that American neoliberals are not Right-Wing, but they certainly aren't Left-Wing.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

You can make the argument that American neoliberals are not Right-Wing, but they certainly aren't Left-Wing.

In the context of America, they are indeed left-wing.

 

[ant4456]

In the context of America, they are indeed left-wing.

That's a pretty silly way of thinking of political terms used in many countries. I don't give America more importance in what these terms mean. America is not special.

This framing is also deliberately a part of why we fall into a two-party system when tons of people not that engaged into politics think that Liberals are left-wing and Republicans are right-wing, and feeling that anything more left-wing is extremist.