OU ADV OU Metagame Discussion

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gard cant really get subs up because you know them down in 2-3 hits with struggle
Struggle can miss I believe. But yes obviously this setup doesn't even always win if it goes off because garde is slow and doesn't even ohko everything at +6. If you sub down to salac range congrats you lose to sand now.

Either way, I don't think the point is to win, more just to be annoying and force your opponent to play a "scripted" sequence. But given that no sane person would bring this to a game they were trying to win and it should be incapable of making it out of 1200s on ladder, I just don't think there's any reason to take tiering action. There are a million ways to be annoying in this game that will have a better winrate than this too.
 
It's been a while since I've been active on the forum so this is probably going to be a longer post because I want to get some of my thoughts on the metagame out of my head. So if you read through this entire post, thank you. If you don't want to read through my longwinded analysis of the competitive meta of a 20-year-old children's game. The tdlr is that I think Skarmory is slightly overrated and its position as the undisputed 2nd best (or best depending on who you ask) Pokemom in ADV OU should instead go to Swampert.

As I'm sure all of us in this thread are aware Skarmory is a fantastic Pokemon in ADV OU. Spikes is a metagame warping move, it's one-half of the tiers defining defensive core, and it's the best counter to ladder cheese strats such as the much reviled by this thread, JaskPass.

But Skarmory is not peerless in possessing these traits. Many players in recent years have been opting for the role compression offered by Forretress on big 5-style teams. Trading Skarmory's spikes immunity and access to Roar for the flexibility in the team builder offered by combining a team's spiker and rapid spinner into the same team slot. Which if tournament results are any indication has been working quite well for these players. As throughout the first 9 rounds of this year's Jimvitational Tournament, featuring many of the tier's preeminent players, Forretress has earned itself a 59% win rate compared to Skarmory's 47%. https://pokepast.es/bf67a05f8e2029df

Many offensive teams have also been choosing to drop Skarmory in recent times. Reaching down to the depths of UUBL and NU for Smeargle and Glaile respectively. To act as spikes leads that don't falter in the presence of the ever-threatening lead Zapdos or immediately go down a mon on turn 2 when faced with a Magneton.

Now all of this isn't to say that Skarmory has been completely replaced in its role as the tier's premier spikes setter. Or that Skarmory is a bad option to put on a team nowadays. But I think the times when people used to unequivocally proclaim that Skarmory was the best Pokemon in the tier are behind us. Skarmory is undeniably a potent force in the tier that every team needs to be prepared for, but it is not an automatic slot-in to make 90% of teams better in the same way that Tyranitar is. Or as unique in its role as Metagross often feels on offensive teams. Or as dominant in performing its main function as Swampert is as a rock resist. With the proliferation of Magneton throughout the meta from physical offense teams to bulkier Mag Dol teams; to recent innovations such as HP fire Celebi and Metagross that allow Pokemon that Skarmory traditionally checks to muscle through it. Skarmory has been facing more pressure from all corners of the meta than ever before. Speaking from my own experience I rarely build teams that don't have at least 2-3 electric or fire-type attackers that can hit Skarmory for Super Effective damage.

In my view, these factors have compounded to the point where I often find myself cutting Skarmory from all but the bulkiest of teams. In favor of the role compression offered by Forretress and Cloyster or Smeargle's better match-ups into most of the tier's common leads.

But unlike Skarmory, one Pokemon that I've increasingly found it hard to replace on almost any team I build is Swampert. Its function as the tier's premier rock resist is hard to replicate with any other Pokemon. Its closest competition comes from Flygon and Claydol who both have considerable flaws in my eyes compared to Swampert. In Flygon's case, its 4x weaknesses to ice and 2x weakness to dragon are far more exploitable than Swampert's own 4x weakness to grass. Its move pool is much shallower, lacking Ice Beam, Focus Punch, Roar, and Refresh in comparison to Swampert. Making Flygon a worse potential answer to Salamence, Blissey, Milotic, Skarmory, etc than Swampert.

While for Claydol its main utility comes from its ability to rapid spin. Meaning that it often has to trade hp in the mid-game to muscle its way through Gengar or spin away a layer of spikes. This makes it an inconsistent answer to Tyranitar or Aerodactyl as it often cannot preserve its hp into the late game like Swampert can. Especially as both Tyranitar and Aerodactyl often run hp bug and can force their way through a chipped Claydol.

Swampert on the other hand is a fantastic 1-team slot answer to all of the tiers most threatening offensive Pokemon. The standard defensive Swanpert set can survive multiple boosted stab hits from dd Tyranitar and Salamence while threatening a 2hko on bulky Tyranitar and a 1hko on Salamence with EQ and Ice Beam respectively. It also threatens a 1hko on Aerodactyl with Hydro Pump while taking less than 40% from all of its Choice Band boosted moves. It even checks Metagross and Mixed Salamence as it resists Metagross's Meteor Mash while threatening a 2hko and can cleanly survive a Salamence hp grass from full. All of this is further compounded by Swamperts ability to chip health in sand with protect, meaning that Swampert can often check more than 1 of these threats in a single game even with a layer of spikes on its own side of the field while being able to scout for Metagross's explosion and surprise hp grasses on Tyranitar.

Swamperts utility isn't even limited to checking offensive threats. With mono-surf sets acting as an effective status absorber and phaser, while still fulfilling Swampert's main role as a rock resist.

For these reasons, I've been finding it harder and harder to justify building a team without Swampert. It feels like what it brings to the table in terms of checking the tier's primer offensive threats while having access to a wide depth of utility moves is unique in the tier and desirable on the majority of teams. That's why I think that Swampert is well deserving of the title of 2nd best Pokemon in ADV OU, right behind Tyranitar, which many people until now have defaulted to giving to Skarmory.
 
Tbh, the fact that everything carries fire or electric coverage says a lot about Skarm defining the ADV meta.

But yeah, you can say the same thing about Pert and that precious grass coverage everything also wants to run.

Hard to tell...
 
Tbh, the fact that everything carries fire or electric coverage says a lot about Skarm defining the ADV meta.

But yeah, you can say the same thing about Pert and that precious grass coverage everything also wants to run.

Hard to tell...
People may run hp grass for coverage because of Pert... many team builds will dedicate an entire team slot to eliminating skarm lol. Mag is friggin B rank in the meta pretty much solely on it's ability to smoke Skarm. Though I also feel like Mag has pretty solid damage output with a magnet and max spatk so it's really not usually complete deadweight.

Granted if there were a trapper that could reliably do to Swampert what Mag does to Skarm I bet you'd see it ranked similarly.

In any case spikes are just far too important to this metagame and even if you get trapped with Skarm you're usually at least getting 1 layer up and that can be the difference in a lot of matchups. If you're using a Skarm and you don't have a contingency for getting trapped that's on you. Swampert is a good progress maker but spikes are the ultimate progress maker
 
Tbh, the fact that everything carries fire or electric coverage says a lot about Skarm defining the ADV meta.

But yeah, you can say the same thing about Pert and that precious grass coverage everything also wants to run.

Hard to tell...
I think the difference is that in a Skarm-less ADV we'd still see a lot of mons running electric and fire coverage. But in a Pert-less ADV HP grass would plummet in usage. For example Gengar runs T-bolt because it's it's strongest, reliable special move and fire punch because it hits Forre/Meta. But Gengar runs HP grass because it is SE on Pert (Giga Drain is an anti-pursuit tar tech but that's more of a feature rather than the reason to run it). Similarly Zap/Kingdra/Suicune all run HP grass to hit Pert. But in a Pert-less ADV, Zap would prefer HP Ice and Kingdra/Suicune would prefer HP Electric 90% of the time. In general Grass is a lackluster offensive typing while Electric and Fire are two of the best.

People may run hp grass for coverage because of Pert... many team builds will dedicate an entire team slot to eliminating skarm lol. Mag is friggin B rank in the meta pretty much solely on it's ability to smoke Skarm. Though I also feel like Mag has pretty solid damage output with a magnet and max spatk so it's really not usually complete deadweight.

Granted if there were a trapper that could reliably do to Swampert what Mag does to Skarm I bet you'd see it ranked similarly.

In any case spikes are just far too important to this metagame and even if you get trapped with Skarm you're usually at least getting 1 layer up and that can be the difference in a lot of matchups. If you're using a Skarm and you don't have a contingency for getting trapped that's on you. Swampert is a good progress maker but spikes are the ultimate progress maker
If we had a reliable Pert trapper, I think it would see a lot of usage. Pert beatdown is already a common team structure, so I'd imagine that Tar/Meta/Aero + a Pert Trapper would be a very powerful team.

Everything you said about spikes being metagame warping is true, but spikes are not unique to Skarm. It's the most reliable spikes setter, but it's not the only 1. Mag being common honestly detracts from Skarms utility in my eyes. It can be nice to run a Cloyster on an offensive team and not immediately go 5-6 for a single layer of spikes. But on most defensive teams Skarm is still the gold standard. Although I think the gap between Skarm and Forre's viability isn't as big as people think. Forre having spin and not being as easily trapped by Mag are big points on its favor.
 
I'm really, REALLY new to this Metagame
But for whatever reason, I'm having a lot of success with LUNATONE of all things
I don't know its just the "catching off guard" thing, but I've had people EQ into Lunatone, not knowing it has Levitate. For some reason.
And I also like it since it has Ice Beam, meaning you can run HP Fire for Steel's
Granted, you cant touch Blissey, Starmie, or TTar, but thats solvable by other mons in your team
My current Lunatone is;
Lunatone @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Ice Beam
This, and its just been really fun and not a hindrance at all
It always feels like it gets value
 
As you get to higher ELO, I expect people will stop clicking ground moves into lunatone. However, it's not the worst pokemon to use. It's one of the best counters to dragon dance salamence, as it isn't 2hko'd by rock slide even from a +1 mence and it can ohko back with ice beam. Another upside to lunatone is it can use explosion to target an opponent's blissey. Having calm mind and explosion is pretty unique and not a bad niche. It also has access to baton pass and hypnosis, which can make it a decent way to pass calm mind boosts to other pokemon on your team.

The set you're using seems to be a worse version of jirachi in most ways. Of course it is ground immune, but physical attackers carrying earthquake frequently also have hidden power bug. It's a lot better against dugtrio, I suppose, but it seems like a waste of lunatone's exceptional and unique movepool.
 
As you get to higher ELO, I expect people will stop clicking ground moves into lunatone. However, it's not the worst pokemon to use. It's one of the best counters to dragon dance salamence, as it isn't 2hko'd by rock slide even from a +1 mence and it can ohko back with ice beam. Another upside to lunatone is it can use explosion to target an opponent's blissey. Having calm mind and explosion is pretty unique and not a bad niche. It also has access to baton pass and hypnosis, which can make it a decent way to pass calm mind boosts to other pokemon on your team.

The set you're using seems to be a worse version of jirachi in most ways. Of course it is ground immune, but physical attackers carrying earthquake frequently also have hidden power bug. It's a lot better against dugtrio, I suppose, but it seems like a waste of lunatone's exceptional and unique movepool.
I appreciate the feedback, I'll tinker with the set a bit and try it out :0
On a side note
Sky Attack Banded Aerodactyl does so much damage like holy
Like I did 50-60% to a Zapdos
OHKO'd a Snorlax with a Crit
30-40% to Jirachi, Metagross, and TTar
 
Granted if there were a trapper that could reliably do to Swampert what Mag does to Skarm I bet you'd see it ranked similarly.
Petaya Berry HP Grass Dug :worrycargo: (very real set)

+1 252+ SpA 30 IVs Dugtrio Hidden Power Grass vs. 248 HP / 44 SpD Swampert: 292-344 (72.4 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA 30 IVs Dugtrio Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Swampert: 340-400 (99.7 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ SpA 30 IVs Dugtrio Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 306-360 (89.7 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
 
Before I get started this was originally its own thread but it got deleted because I didn't ask for permission to make it (sorry mods). Below is everything from the original post plus a few other new things.

Disclaimer: I am not a very good pokemon player and I probably don't understand the adv metagame completely so take everything I say with a grain of salt and correct me if I am wrong about anything here. That being said this is my opinion so please respect that this is just how I feel.

Ah yes dugtrio. Personally I feel like it should be banned but that is mostly because if dugtrio is banned it would more than likely open the floodgates for many...MANY UUBL pokemon to become viable. I wish to discuss a few other specific pokemon another time (especially blaziken) but the one I wish to talk about today is raikou. The best and worst part of raikou is it's speed (which is the same as starmie's). It outruns most of the metagame which is super important in a world where choice scarf doesn't exist yet. However (though I am sure there are some other reasons) the main reason raikou is still not in ou is because of dugtrio. It is faster than raikou and unless raikou completely invests in bulk (which isn't ideal and I am pretty sure still doesn't help that much) it gets one shot by the usually choice band boosted earthquake. Obviously this is a problem for many pokemon (and one of the reasons uubl is so large) but this really hurts raikou the most because in my opinion if dugtrio is banned not only could it be a top tier threat...but it may also be ban-worthy itself.

"But why is raikou ban worthy," you may ask. To put it simply it has access to calm mind substitute and out speeds everything in ou except starmie (which speed ties it and also doesn't matter that much) aerodactyl and jolteon. To say that raikou could probably beat most of the metagame with just lum berry as the item calm mind substitute thunderbolt and hp ice isn't exactly a lie. The only 3 pokemon (in ou) that don't get completely destroyed by this set specifically are blissey swampert and aerodactyl. However even these 3 may have trouble. Even blissey is screwed if raikou boosts itself enough (and it doesn't have calm mind itself) swampert is especially screwed if it is hp grass (but hp ice is neutral so this might not even be necessary) and aerodactyl not only cannot switch into a substitute but since earthquake isn't stab raikou could possibly tank it if it wants to do hp or defense investment.

"But what about other ground types," you may ask. To put it simply hp ice destroys each and every one. Neither flygon or claydol are safe to switch in on raikou because (especially when boosted) hp ice beats both of them. Neutral targets don't fare much better as not even fortress is safe from a thunderbolt coming off from a plus 2 special attacking raikou and nothing in ou can resist both thunderbolt and hp ice.

Now I did fail to mention snorlax which has high special defense rest and access to earthquake. However it is not safe from raikou either as if it is forced to use rest it is leaving raikou to spam calm mind freely and even if it has sleep talk it is pure rng whether snorlax uses the right move and snorlax probably doesn't like to run sleep talk anyway because then it needs to get rid of curse which is a big problem. And that is only for curse sets as if snorlax runs an all out attacking set raikou can just substitute if it knows snorlax with self destruct.

Of course raikou can't beat everything by itself as some things come down to chance and it doesn't exactly have high defense. However it can be easily helped by its teammates (immediately gengar comes to mind) so that can be easily offset. The best thing you can do against raikou is use roar if you live an attack which comes with its own problems.

All in all raikou would probably be top tier at the very least in adv ou if dugtrio is banned. We need to watch out for raikou if dugtrio is ever banned as it really could destroy ou with a combination of everything mentioned above. Please don't let this post make you afraid to ban dugtrio if the time ever comes because banning raikou or any other huge threat is always possible.

To add to the original post I did forget to mention magneton. Technically magneton does resist both thunderbolt and hp ice. However this still isn't a valid answer imo because the 2 offensive moves it runs (thunderbolt and hp fire) do not do enough damage to justify being used as an answer. Raikou could just calm mind and then wreak havoc when it is ready.
 
ADV bros just be posting anything these days

Ultimately, if Dugtrio was really *that* problematic he'd probably have been dealt with by now. We can't just ban dudes on the premise of "x UUBL pokemon would be so fire" because chances are they'd just lose to a different top tier instead. I promise most UUBL pokemon aren't only there because of dugtrio.
As for Raikou, dugtrio is far from the only thing holding it back. It has to deal with being less immediately threatening than zapdos, spikes (kinda gets worn down a lot from not being as bulky as suicune), swampert if it doesn't have hp grass, etc etc. Raikou is pretty hard to fit in teams and is overall a high maintenence pokemon (not a bad one by any means but not banworthy in a world without dugtrio. Besides, he would simply be dispatched by the formidable traphinch)

If your distain for dugtrio is so great you could always use the funniest looking pokemon in adv, porygon 2
 
ADV bros just be posting anything these days

Ultimately, if Dugtrio was really *that* problematic he'd probably have been dealt with by now. We can't just ban dudes on the premise of "x UUBL pokemon would be so fire" because chances are they'd just lose to a different top tier instead. I promise most UUBL pokemon aren't only there because of dugtrio.
As for Raikou, dugtrio is far from the only thing holding it back. It has to deal with being less immediately threatening than zapdos, spikes (kinda gets worn down a lot from not being as bulky as suicune), swampert if it doesn't have hp grass, etc etc. Raikou is pretty hard to fit in teams and is overall a high maintenence pokemon (not a bad one by any means but not banworthy in a world without dugtrio. Besides, he would simply be dispatched by the formidable traphinch)

If your distain for dugtrio is so great you could always use the funniest looking pokemon in adv, porygon 2
I personally disagree with the stuff about Raikou but I do understand what you say about dugtrio. I do think it should be banned as in my opinion trapping is fundamentally broken (besides magnet pull) but I don't care that much.
 
ADV bros just be posting anything these days

Ultimately, if Dugtrio was really *that* problematic he'd probably have been dealt with by now. We can't just ban dudes on the premise of "x UUBL pokemon would be so fire" because chances are they'd just lose to a different top tier instead. I promise most UUBL pokemon aren't only there because of dugtrio.
As for Raikou, dugtrio is far from the only thing holding it back. It has to deal with being less immediately threatening than zapdos, spikes (kinda gets worn down a lot from not being as bulky as suicune), swampert if it doesn't have hp grass, etc etc. Raikou is pretty hard to fit in teams and is overall a high maintenence pokemon (not a bad one by any means but not banworthy in a world without dugtrio. Besides, he would simply be dispatched by the formidable traphinch)

If your distain for dugtrio is so great you could always use the funniest looking pokemon in adv, porygon 2
There is a decent argument for a dug ban IMO. Defensive teams are already so powerful and dug not only helps them out a lot, but it does so in a very hard to deal with way. The main good things dug does for the tier is help specific offense teams deal with blissey, threaten celebi, and stop DD Tars, but it is extremely restrictive in the teambuilder.

Off the top of my head, here are a few offensive mons that are made significantly less reliable by dug.

CB and DD tar, heracross, CB Metagross, Blaziken, Jirachi, Raikou, Breloom, and Medicham.

If dug wasn’t around offense would be much better, which while I personally like defense being strong in gen 3, even without dug it would likely still be the most reliable style.
 
There is a decent argument for a dug ban IMO. Defensive teams are already so powerful and dug not only helps them out a lot, but it does so in a very hard to deal with way. The main good things dug does for the tier is help specific offense teams deal with blissey, threaten celebi, and stop DD Tars, but it is extremely restrictive in the teambuilder.

Off the top of my head, here are a few offensive mons that are made significantly less reliable by dug.

CB and DD tar, heracross, CB Metagross, Blaziken, Jirachi, Raikou, Breloom, and Medicham.

If dug wasn’t around offense would be much better, which while I personally like defense being strong in gen 3, even without dug it would likely still be the most reliable style.
Do you think a dugtrio ban would make adv ou more fresh and exciting or do you believe it will become more chaotic
 
There is a decent argument for a dug ban IMO. Defensive teams are already so powerful and dug not only helps them out a lot, but it does so in a very hard to deal with way. The main good things dug does for the tier is help specific offense teams deal with blissey, threaten celebi, and stop DD Tars, but it is extremely restrictive in the teambuilder.

Off the top of my head, here are a few offensive mons that are made significantly less reliable by dug.

CB and DD tar, heracross, CB Metagross, Blaziken, Jirachi, Raikou, Breloom, and Medicham.

If dug wasn’t around offense would be much better, which while I personally like defense being strong in gen 3, even without dug it would likely still be the most reliable style.
??? Dugtrio enables so many offensive builds that would otherwise be completely unviable lol. Also TSS is still king which does not utilize Dug or any trapper for that matter.

Both Tyranitar and Metagross are generally EVd so they live an EQ from full and OHKO back. Most of the other offensive mons you mentioned need to be revenge killed by Dug since if you get a sub on the switch for any of them the Dug loses that matchup.

Not to mention the fact that Dugtrio absolutely has to be banded and is so easily taken advantage of if you are too reckless with it. Skarm gets free spikes, DD Mence gets a free boost, DD Gyara gets a free boost, I mean honestly there are so many ways to take advantage of Dug even if it gets the trap off.

The metagame would be far worse off without Dugtrio in a similar way that the metagame would be far worse off if permanent sand were banned.
 
??? Dugtrio enables so many offensive builds that would otherwise be completely unviable lol. Also TSS is still king which does not utilize Dug or any trapper for that matter.

Both Tyranitar and Metagross are generally EVd so they live an EQ from full and OHKO back. Most of the other offensive mons you mentioned need to be revenge killed by Dug since if you get a sub on the switch for any of them the Dug loses that matchup.

Not to mention the fact that Dugtrio absolutely has to be banded and is so easily taken advantage of if you are too reckless with it. Skarm gets free spikes, DD Mence gets a free boost, DD Gyara gets a free boost, I mean honestly there are so many ways to take advantage of Dug even if it gets the trap off.

The metagame would be far worse off without Dugtrio in a similar way that the metagame would be far worse off if permanent sand were banned.
I mean dugtrio and permanent sand are 2 completely different problems and permanent sand isn't even that big of a problem. It is just a part of adv ou's identity
 
Ok so can you prove that dugtrio improves the metagame? I am not trying to put you on the spot I just want to know how exactly dugtrio make adv better
Dugtrio empowers stall and offense equally. I think thats a sign its + for the metagame. There are also a lot of anti-dug tools available, so it's not like it's unchecked. Dugtrio is a powerful presence in the meta. Just have to accept that and build around it.
 
Dugtrio empowers stall and offense equally. I think thats a sign its + for the metagame. There are also a lot of anti-dug tools available, so it's not like it's unchecked. Dugtrio is a powerful presence in the meta. Just have to accept that and build around it.
There's a huge anti dugtrio tech for celebi, jirachi, ttar, and metagross called investment in bulk which causes the dug user to need chip and to then find a safe entry to trap those Pokémon
 
Dugtrio empowers stall and offense equally. I think thats a sign its + for the metagame. There are also a lot of anti-dug tools available, so it's not like it's unchecked. Dugtrio is a powerful presence in the meta. Just have to accept that and build around it.
Ok well like I said I do not care that much about dugtrio getting banned I just want to know what will happen if it does. That being said I do wish to make my own case. I think it should be banned for the same reason it has been (technically) banned in every generation after.

Unless it is something where only one specific type of pokemon being trapped (aka magnet pull trapping only steel types) trapping is fundamentally broken. You are being prevented from switching out which means that if a pokemon is unable to kill dugtrio (which is most pokemon it switches in on) it is basically a guaranteed ko from earthquake.

What makes this even worse is that flying types aren't even real counters to dugtrio as most flying types (in adv ou at least) are ohkoed by rock slide and the only exception to that is skarmory. The only levitate user who is safe is flygon as claydol and gengar are beaten by hp bug and rock slide respectively. Breloom and heracross (both of whom resist earthquake) are ohkoed by aerial ace. Dugtrio does have counters but the only 2 pokemon that I am certain dugtrio can't beat (that are ranked in ou) without switching its moveset around is flygon and forretress.

And that is why I think dugtrio should be banned. I am admittedly not that good at adv ou and I don't know everything about it but I hope I proved my points well and you can understand why I think dugtrio should be banned.
 
Ok well like I said I do not care that much about dugtrio getting banned I just want to know what will happen if it does. That being said I do wish to make my own case. I think it should be banned for the same reason it has been (technically) banned in every generation after.

Unless it is something where only one specific type of pokemon being trapped (aka magnet pull trapping only steel types) trapping is fundamentally broken. You are being prevented from switching out which means that if a pokemon is unable to kill dugtrio (which is most pokemon it switches in on) it is basically a guaranteed ko from earthquake.

What makes this even worse is that flying types aren't even real counters to dugtrio as most flying types (in adv ou at least) are ohkoed by rock slide and the only exception to that is skarmory. The only levitate user who is safe is flygon as claydol and gengar are beaten by hp bug and rock slide respectively. Breloom and heracross (both of whom resist earthquake) are ohkoed by aerial ace. Dugtrio does have counters but the only 2 pokemon that I am certain dugtrio can't beat (that are ranked in ou) without switching its moveset around is flygon and forretress.

And that is why I think dugtrio should be banned. I am admittedly not that good at adv ou and I don't know everything about it but I hope I proved my points well and you can understand why I think dugtrio should be banned.
So here's the thing... a lot of what you're saying is just straight up wrong here. I think you should actually try playing the meta a bit more and you'll see that in practice almost none of what you're saying here is true.

Dugtrio is pretty much the most frail mon in the meta, almost everything can OHKO it one way or another if they can live the EQ hit (or whatever other move you lock into). Mons like Metagross and Tyranitar, for example, are guys that are generally EVd specifically to survive a Dugtrio choice banded EQ and they absolutely will kill it back with just about any move of their choosing. Not to mention the fact that you also have to get Dugtrio in for free on one of those mons... which you won't because it dies to almost any neutral hit.

I don't really even know where to begin on that third paragraph because it's just all completely inaccurate. I don't mean this to be rude but like... if you try to 1 v 1 claydol or gengar with Dug, both of them live the banded hit and then OHKO back with ice punch or earthquake. Offensive Zapdos lives a banded rock slide and ohkos back with HP Grass/Ice. Salamence lives a banded rock slide and OHKOs back with literally pretty much anything it uses. None of these are even really realistic scenarios anyway because you're definitely not going to be winning many games trying to use Dug to beat any of those guys.

That's not to mention the fact that Dugtrio absolutely has to use choice band, so even if you do get the trap off and eliminate a threat, you're giving your opponent a free turn on the switch in to do whatever they want and if you're reckless with your Dug usage you can lose on the spot if you're not careful.

Ultimately I'd encourage you to try playing the metagame and learning how some of these interactions work before declaring a mon like Dug to be broken.
 
So here's the thing... a lot of what you're saying is just straight up wrong here. I think you should actually try playing the meta a bit more and you'll see that in practice almost none of what you're saying here is true.

Dugtrio is pretty much the most frail mon in the meta, almost everything can OHKO it one way or another if they can live the EQ hit (or whatever other move you lock into). Mons like Metagross and Tyranitar, for example, are guys that are generally EVd specifically to survive a Dugtrio choice banded EQ and they absolutely will kill it back with just about any move of their choosing. Not to mention the fact that you also have to get Dugtrio in for free on one of those mons... which you won't because it dies to almost any neutral hit.

I don't really even know where to begin on that third paragraph because it's just all completely inaccurate. I don't mean this to be rude but like... if you try to 1 v 1 claydol or gengar with Dug, both of them live the banded hit and then OHKO back with ice punch or earthquake. Offensive Zapdos lives a banded rock slide and ohkos back with HP Grass/Ice. Salamence lives a banded rock slide and OHKOs back with literally pretty much anything it uses. None of these are even really realistic scenarios anyway because you're definitely not going to be winning many games trying to use Dug to beat any of those guys.

That's not to mention the fact that Dugtrio absolutely has to use choice band, so even if you do get the trap off and eliminate a threat, you're giving your opponent a free turn on the switch in to do whatever they want and if you're reckless with your Dug usage you can lose on the spot if you're not careful.

Ultimately I'd encourage you to try playing the metagame and learning how some of these interactions work before declaring a mon like Dug to be broken.
Ok I can admit that I was wrong about how well certain pokemon survive (though imo the fact that pokemon such as swampert and tyranitar have to adjust specifically for dugtrio sounds like centralizing) but I didn't deny that it has other counters besides flygon and forretress nor did I deny that it was frail. Also I do agree that pokemon like zapdos or salamence can beat dugtrio but they can only beat it with specific sets and on other sets they can lose. This is why I said specifically said that dugtrio can't beat flygon and forretress no matter what moveset or ev spreads they have. Dugtrio can be beaten and not be able to beat other pokemon but the only way dugtrio can beat flygon and forretress is if dugtrio changes its MOVES. I said nothing about using a different item as I acknowledge that choice band is dugtrio's only good item. I think that covers everything you mentioned and though I may not be as experienced as many others on this forum I hope you still take my response somewhat seriously and I do acknowledge that I did make some mistakes.
 
Ok so can you prove that dugtrio improves the metagame? I am not trying to put you on the spot I just want to know how exactly dugtrio make adv better
I think the onus in this situation should be to prove that Dugtrio actively makes the metagame worse, rather than if it's banning might make for a theoretically "better" metagame. The question of whether a certain pokemon's presence in a metagame makes it better is subjective and not exactly a reliable test to prove that that pokemon should be banned.
 
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