OU ADV OU Metagame Discussion

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H!kari said:
I think the onus in this situation should be to prove that Dugtrio actively makes the metagame worse, rather than if it's banning might make for a theoretically "better" metagame. The question of whether a certain pokemon's presence in a metagame makes it better is subjective and not exactly a reliable test to prove that that pokemon should be banned.
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That is fair so what do you think?
 
What is everyone's opinion on Medicham as a proper OU mon? The two most recent 2024 VR submissions ranked Medicham as an OU mon.

I think Medicham gets slightly more consistent value than Gyarados. But it can be hard to fit on teams because it struggles to switch in on a majority of the tier. If Medicham can get in and start throwing out focus punchs, it can overwhelm Skarmory and Swampert. Although getting it in when spikes are down can be difficult. It also commonly let's Salamence and Gengar switch in unless you make a prediction. So it can struggle to make good midgrounds plays into certain teams.

I also think that Bulk Up is underexplored as a set. It gives Medicham the power of CB without having to be choice locked. But you have to give up Focus Punch/Baton Pass.
 
UltraSword said:
Before I get started this was originally its own thread but it got deleted because I didn't ask for permission to make it (sorry mods). Below is everything from the original post plus a few other new things.

Disclaimer: I am not a very good pokemon player and I probably don't understand the adv metagame completely so take everything I say with a grain of salt and correct me if I am wrong about anything here. That being said this is my opinion so please respect that this is just how I feel.

Ah yes dugtrio. Personally I feel like it should be banned but that is mostly because if dugtrio is banned it would more than likely open the floodgates for many...MANY UUBL pokemon to become viable. I wish to discuss a few other specific pokemon another time (especially blaziken) but the one I wish to talk about today is raikou. The best and worst part of raikou is it's speed (which is the same as starmie's). It outruns most of the metagame which is super important in a world where choice scarf doesn't exist yet. However (though I am sure there are some other reasons) the main reason raikou is still not in ou is because of dugtrio. It is faster than raikou and unless raikou completely invests in bulk (which isn't ideal and I am pretty sure still doesn't help that much) it gets one shot by the usually choice band boosted earthquake. Obviously this is a problem for many pokemon (and one of the reasons uubl is so large) but this really hurts raikou the most because in my opinion if dugtrio is banned not only could it be a top tier threat...but it may also be ban-worthy itself.

"But why is raikou ban worthy," you may ask. To put it simply it has access to calm mind substitute and out speeds everything in ou except starmie (which speed ties it and also doesn't matter that much) aerodactyl and jolteon. To say that raikou could probably beat most of the metagame with just lum berry as the item calm mind substitute thunderbolt and hp ice isn't exactly a lie. The only 3 pokemon (in ou) that don't get completely destroyed by this set specifically are blissey swampert and aerodactyl. However even these 3 may have trouble. Even blissey is screwed if raikou boosts itself enough (and it doesn't have calm mind itself) swampert is especially screwed if it is hp grass (but hp ice is neutral so this might not even be necessary) and aerodactyl not only cannot switch into a substitute but since earthquake isn't stab raikou could possibly tank it if it wants to do hp or defense investment.

"But what about other ground types," you may ask. To put it simply hp ice destroys each and every one. Neither flygon or claydol are safe to switch in on raikou because (especially when boosted) hp ice beats both of them. Neutral targets don't fare much better as not even fortress is safe from a thunderbolt coming off from a plus 2 special attacking raikou and nothing in ou can resist both thunderbolt and hp ice.

Now I did fail to mention snorlax which has high special defense rest and access to earthquake. However it is not safe from raikou either as if it is forced to use rest it is leaving raikou to spam calm mind freely and even if it has sleep talk it is pure rng whether snorlax uses the right move and snorlax probably doesn't like to run sleep talk anyway because then it needs to get rid of curse which is a big problem. And that is only for curse sets as if snorlax runs an all out attacking set raikou can just substitute if it knows snorlax with self destruct.

Of course raikou can't beat everything by itself as some things come down to chance and it doesn't exactly have high defense. However it can be easily helped by its teammates (immediately gengar comes to mind) so that can be easily offset. The best thing you can do against raikou is use roar if you live an attack which comes with its own problems.

All in all raikou would probably be top tier at the very least in adv ou if dugtrio is banned. We need to watch out for raikou if dugtrio is ever banned as it really could destroy ou with a combination of everything mentioned above. Please don't let this post make you afraid to ban dugtrio if the time ever comes because banning raikou or any other huge threat is always possible.

To add to the original post I did forget to mention magneton. Technically magneton does resist both thunderbolt and hp ice. However this still isn't a valid answer imo because the 2 offensive moves it runs (thunderbolt and hp fire) do not do enough damage to justify being used as an answer. Raikou could just calm mind and then wreak havoc when it is ready.
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ADV is not DPP, BW or any future gen after the GBA era. And because something is banned in modern gens should not be retroactively banned. Period.

Arena Trap is perfectly balanced in Gen 3, this is because there aren't pivot moves, and the threats / sweepers you have at your disposal are quite weaker than what you will have in the modern gens. U-turn doesn't exist, Volt Switch doesn't either. So you have to rely on Baton Pass so Dugtrio can pivot in. If you don't have a pivot move, you have to actually double switch a 35/50/50 bulk Pokémon into the field.

The three Pokémon in OU that learn and use BP are Celebi, Zapdos, Umbreon and Jolteon. Umbreon is not used alongside Dug usually, the other three can and when they BP they have to be careful since if they go first and opponent attacks, your Dug won't do jackshit.

Special and Physical boosting is limited to +1 per turn in most of the viable mons (the only exceptions being SD pass Celebi, Heracross and Marowak. Stuff like Blaziken never uses it and tbh out of the 3 Pokémon I mentioned Celebi most of the time does not use it since it can pass other stats too). So, to sums up, both ofensive and defensive options are weaker, therefore removing a piece from a team with Dugtrio does not just ruins the metagame!

And as for Dug itself dueling with its target, you have to first chip it down. EVs placed in specific ways so you live another hit from a mon in the tier is something that happens in EVERY generation, in both OU and VGC. From this meta in gen III, up to gen IV OU where each mon that can will run 219 speed to be faster than Kingambit.

But how well does dug into these targets by itself? Is it that broken so it can idk, delete swampert and allow Metagross (?) to win the game by itself?

Bulky Dug (because, spoilers, you need to tank a Blissey Ice Beam in order to beat it since it doesn't OHKO) vs Swampert
252 Atk 30 IVs Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Swampert: 141-166 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- 68.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Swampert Surf vs. 136 HP / 24 SpD 30 IVs Dugtrio: 234-276 (95.5 - 112.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO


Bulky Dug vs Special Lead TTar
252 Atk 30 IVs Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 16 Def Tyranitar: 323-380 (79.9 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

240+ SpA Tyranitar Ice Beam vs. 136 HP / 24 SpD 30 IVs Dugtrio: 238-280 (97.1 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO


Bulky Dug vs Zapdos
252 Atk 30 IVs Choice Band Dugtrio Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 204-240 (63.3 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA 30 IVs Zapdos Hidden Power Grass vs. 136 HP / 24 SpD 30 IVs Dugtrio: 195-230 (79.5 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Dead after one Spike

Bulky Dug vs Blissey
252+ SpA Blissey Ice Beam vs. 136 HP / 24 SpD 30 IVs Dugtrio: 207-244 (84.4 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Dead after one Spike

252 Atk 30 IVs Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 350-412 (53.7 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I could go on and on with Jirachi, Snorlax, Suicune... And not make me start with stuff like Gengar, Flygon Claydol, or the fact that after locking on Earthquake DD Mence, CB Aero, DD Gyara, Sub Zard, Sub Petaya Hera etcetera.

Let's also use WRs. Using Jimvitational usage stats from rounds 1-9, Dug has a 20% usage (healthy in a gen with much less Pokémon than a modern one) and only 47~% winrate. Why wouldn't a broken mon be used in every single team or have an insane WR if played "only" 62 times out of 310 games? Simple, it's not broken, it has never been. Dug is a base 80 attack mon, which using it at high level requires a lot of skill actually.
 
H!kari said:
I think the onus in this situation should be to prove that Dugtrio actively makes the metagame worse, rather than if it's banning might make for a theoretically "better" metagame. The question of whether a certain pokemon's presence in a metagame makes it better is subjective and not exactly a reliable test to prove that that pokemon should be banned.
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Dugtrio not being there would make the tier unbalanced due to salac berry + reversal users (who are not immune to sand).
 
Why do some feel the need to so quickly shut down any ban discussions in this thread? Whether the discussion is warranted or not, should we discourage players at any level to discuss the game? The more day to day things like EV spreads, move sets and what not are already discussed constantly in other places. Dugtrio to me adds a very strong element to this tier that I enjoy alongside other trappers like Magnemite which can enable some fun team compositions. While a Dug ban is completely unwarranted to me, I still see some value in others discussing it.

This is mainly for the old heads who have more knowledge on what makes a Pokemon broken or balanced. Newer players are still learning and hopefully can be encouraged to partake in conversation as long as they provide reasonably constructive points in their argument.
 
Tyranitar is extremely scary and overcentralizing. Sandstorm makes it impossible to run bulk in a valid way and its rock slides forces you to run more than 1 pokemon that resist rock so you dont get flinched down.
 
Funkybeangamer said:
Tyranitar is extremely scary and overcentralizing. Sandstorm makes it impossible to run bulk in a valid way and its rock slides forces you to run more than 1 pokemon that resist rock so you dont get flinched down.
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While Tyranitar is an extremely powerful mon in the meta, it is not really over centralising I would say, and helps a lot in the meta. Bulk can definitely be run viably, as mons such as milotic still work well even with sand chip and mons such as Suicune are kept in check a lot easier by sand, which would otherwise be difficult. Resisting rock is something that teams should have not just because of t-tar, but because of aero too, who is a very scary mon if you don't have any rock resists. Dd sets can struggle due to not being able to 1 shot everything and still being outspeed by mons such as dugtrio, jolteon and aerodactyl even after a boost. Dd is the only set that would be close to broken, and it still isn't. Pursuit t-tar is also probably the best pursuiter in the game, which how good Gengar is, is a good thing.

Yes, tyranitar does centralise the meta a lot, but I would not say it is a net negative to the tier and provides a lot to the meta.
 
kokeri said:
Why do some feel the need to so quickly shut down any ban discussions in this thread? Whether the discussion is warranted or not, should we discourage players at any level to discuss the game? The more day to day things like EV spreads, move sets and what not are already discussed constantly in other places. Dugtrio to me adds a very strong element to this tier that I enjoy alongside other trappers like Magnemite which can enable some fun team compositions. While a Dug ban is completely unwarranted to me, I still see some value in others discussing it.

This is mainly for the old heads who have more knowledge on what makes a Pokemon broken or balanced. Newer players are still learning and hopefully can be encouraged to partake in conversation as long as they provide reasonably constructive points in their argument.
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On the nature of this recent thread:
1. Someone who barely knows anything about the metagame comes in and makes a bold claim about (a) how broken Dugtrio is when said user also thinks the only Pokemon safe from Dugtrio are Flygon and Forretress while ignoring the threat that 20 Pokemon ranked higher in the VR can pose to Dugtrio teams, and (b) how trapping is "fundamentally broken". Is this truly "discussing the game"?
2. I believe that if one does not understand the metagame well enough before making such statements, then the sensible response is to ask questions (in this case, about the influence of Dugtrio) instead of providing uninformed opinions.
3. If the question is conceivably beginner-level, it belongs in the beginner's lounge thread. In the recent thread it appears that said user is unfamiliar with even typical Dugtrio-top20ADVmons interactions - beginner level stuff.

On general thoughts of moderating ban discussions:
1. There are multiple factors that affect our (moderators) decisions on allowing/guiding/disallowing ban discussions. Roughly speaking, the litmus test is "is this discussion going in a direction that a significant fraction of the reasonably experienced player base would be interested in, and/or can lead to an actionable result?"

Of course, newer players are encouraged to learn and partake in conversation. In my opinion, the proper way, if one is a newer player, is to be engaged in conversation in a manner that involves asking questions alongside providing opinions and responding critically to responses. Too many times, these threads devolve into multiple people talking over each other without finding common ground or identifying root causes of disagreement, where participants appear to show more interest in making their opinions heard than contributing to a common body of knowledge where everyone (including people who are reading but not responding to the thread!) can learn from. This is helpful to nobody.

I don't think we (moderators) are asking for much. We've frankly let a lot of borderline unhelpful comments slide to wait and see if the conversations can move to more productive directions. Sometimes they do, but when the lifetime is up we end it.

We (moderators) are not policing because we're sticklers for rules. We're policing because a significant majority of players is not interested in clicking a notification on a stickied metagame thread only to find a scatter of ill-informed opinions or arguments that have been rehashed 100x.
 
Is Dugtrio overpowered? Probably. Would the metagame improve if Dugtrio left? Absolutely not. Yes it traps most of the metagame, but it's also forced to use choice band (unless you are using it wrong) so it's not difficult to exploit on the crackback. Dugtrio's coverage moves aren't the strongest, notably requiring bulky Celebi to take ~45% to ohko it 100% of the time (yes I'm aware that sand makes this range a little more forgiving but that's not the point I'm trying to make). I don't know how to continue my point so I'm just gonna say that Dugtrio makes the metagame better one more time and leave.
 
Hey I’m new to the metagame, and as I was building a team around Aero I started to really want a Mixed Tar last slot for sand, (yeah I said last slot) and wanted the bulk of BKC Tar while also hitting/crippling Aero’s checks as well as being threatening. Are there any optimisations or suggestions to be made?
Tyranitar @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Quiet Nature
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Toxic
- Focus Punch
Here it is. Fire Blast hits Skarm and Meta, Hidden Power Bug hits Celebi and Claydol, Toxic cripples Pert lacking Refresh (and forces Pert to click it eventually, giving a free turn) and Milotic as well as Mence and non Rest Zapdos. Rest Zap shouldn’t be a weakness however since I have a Rock Slide Meta to lure Rest Zapdos along with a Blissey. This is basically my secondary plan against Pert since I have a Meta to blow up on that, as well as ruining Pert lacking Refresh. Focus Punch is to prevent being walled by Blissey. Again any thoughts and how can this be improved?
 
I don't know if this is the right place to ask. But with Medicham ranking above 3 OU pokemon in this years viability rankings, does the council have any intention of moving it up from UUBL?
 
Conflux123 said:
Hey I’m new to the metagame, and as I was building a team around Aero I started to really want a Mixed Tar last slot for sand, (yeah I said last slot) and wanted the bulk of BKC Tar while also hitting/crippling Aero’s checks as well as being threatening. Are there any optimisations or suggestions to be made?
Tyranitar @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Quiet Nature
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Toxic
- Focus Punch
Here it is. Fire Blast hits Skarm and Meta, Hidden Power Bug hits Celebi and Claydol, Toxic cripples Pert lacking Refresh (and forces Pert to click it eventually, giving a free turn) and Milotic as well as Mence and non Rest Zapdos. Rest Zap shouldn’t be a weakness however since I have a Rock Slide Meta to lure Rest Zapdos along with a Blissey. This is basically my secondary plan against Pert since I have a Meta to blow up on that, as well as ruining Pert lacking Refresh. Focus Punch is to prevent being walled by Blissey. Again any thoughts and how can this be improved?
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it feels like a worse version of mix ttar, there are a few reasons i feel like

1. hp bug is smth hp grass can accomplish while using hp grass to slam pert
2. luring in zap with boom is smth meta alr does and rock slide is alr smth zap tries to scout. You are utterally owned by rest zap and refresh pert
3. you can use ice beam and also hit mence who you kinda get owned by, and focus punch vs blissey while smth you are just asking to eat a toxic and be potentially stalled out as 0 atk focus punch isnt doing as much as you like
 
I'm trying to build with a unique Mon like some legends I've met, like Celdanami running around the ladder with Minun. I've tried and failed with Slowbro. Just a real cool dude, shame he's just a worse Suicune. Any ideas on unexplored UU Pokemon with potential?
 
Koby23 said:
I'm trying to build with a unique Mon like some legends I've met, like Celdanami running around the ladder with Minun. I've tried and failed with Slowbro. Just a real cool dude, shame he's just a worse Suicune. Any ideas on unexplored UU Pokemon with potential?
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Lanturn

Muk if you like jimothy cool

Rain + Omastar

Cosmic Power + BP Solrock or just CB Solrock
 
HydreigonTheChild said:
Lanturn

Muk if you like jimothy cool

Rain + Omastar

Cosmic Power + BP Solrock or just CB Solrock
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My friend. All of this has been done. I want something truly unique. Themes are Redemption, Weirdness, and somewhat Special. I was thinking Hypno, but that somehow has been done. Feels like I may be wrong to think that there is a Mon that has not been touched yet in this Meta's 20+ Year History.
 
Koby23 said:
My friend. All of this has been done. I want something truly unique. Themes are Redemption, Weirdness, and somewhat Special. I was thinking Hypno, but that somehow has been done. Feels like I may be wrong to think that there is a Mon that has not been touched yet in this Meta's 20+ Year History.
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idk, time travel to the 2000's and tell pokemon online how everyone should invest into cacturne
 
Hi everyone, I apologize in advance if this is not the place to discuss something like this
I just had an idea for a metagame based on gen III that could be fun to play: TRADEBACK GEN III
It is obviously inspired by GEN I tradeback, and it is based on 2 simple concepts:
-1: if a pokemon available in Gen III learns a move or has an ability in a later generation, these moves and abilities can be used in this metagame
-2: this only applies to moves and abilities that are already coded in Gen III
For example: Chlorophyll Venusaur is legal because it is an hidden ability he gets in later generations, but Charizard with Solar Power is not since it is not coded in Gen III.
The meta would obviously be characterized by weather wars (Politoed, Pelipper, Torkoal and Ninetales would all be available), but it would have some key differences: the absence of scald, stealth rock, and the physical/special split would all be incredibly important.
Just a couple of considerations about some mons:
- Pelipper would be the best weather setter, the only one that cannot be trapped by Dugtrio
- Torkoal would probably be a better sun setter than Ninetales, with great defense that make him capable to surbvive a Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake and OHKO back with Solar Beam
- Zapdos would be incredibly dominant in my opinion, with Thunderbold/Thunder as stab, Heat Wave and Weather Ball as coverage, Static as an ability arguably better than Pressure
- Sharpedo and Blaziken with Speed Boost could become a thread thought since we are before the phys/spec split they'd both be less threatening
- Sand would reasonably be sidelined as the only ability that synergizes with the condition, Sand Veil, is banned, and Sand Rush is not available
- Rain would probably be the best weather like in Gen V, with lots of Swift Swim (and even rain dish) new pokemon available.
Tell me what you think (a tournament with this format could be lots of fun in my opinion)
 
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itsmyfirstday said:
I apologize in advance if this is not the place to discuss something like this
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I'm not certain there is a place to discuss old-generation OMs (Other Metagames are modded formats). Regardless, this thread is for OU discussion only. Good luck finding the right spot for that - I tried looking around to help you out and didn't find anything in either the ADV or OM subforums.
 
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