Mechanics Spread move reduction in older generations

latios777

latios777

What type of bug are you reporting? Mechanics

What is the bug?
When playing battle doubles and a spread move like Blizzard is used. The fast pokémon always receive the first Blizzard and the slow mon receive the second hit. If blizzard ohkoes first pokémon, the second pokémon takes 100% damage instead of 75%.

Are you able to replicate it? If so, how?
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4doublesou-2212689166-uzvic1fglwg4uxssk99xihckuyb1o4kpw
In battle tower, in turn 2 when aerodactyl faints, heatran should receive:
252 Atk Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 102-120 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- 78.9% chance to 3HKO

In pokémon showdown is doing 75%:

252 Atk Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 76-90 (23.5 - 27.8%) -- 80.1% chance to 4HKO
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Here's cart footage showing both of these bugs (though I'm not sure why you think they shouldn't be implemented?)
(singles calc) 20- SpA Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Carnivine: 290-344 (100.3 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(doubles calc) 20- SpA Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Carnivine: 218-258 (75.4 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
 
Last edited by a moderator:
This mechanic seems unhealthy/unfair for the metagame and I don't like but is how the original game works so is up to you and the showdown comunity if should be implemented or not. Fortunately, in 5 gen this mechanic was solved.

EDIT:
This is theorymon and need test.

Probably this mechanic happen with moves that hit all pokémon (explosion, surf, earthquake) but only if this turn...

a) You don't have a partner (because faints this turn or because you only have one pokémon active) and the faster mon that oponent has in battle dies with that spread move. Then the slower oponent's mon takes 100% damage.
b) because your partner dies with your own spread move and faster's oponent mon dies. Then the slower oponent's mon takes 100% damage (only if is slower that your partner otherwise take normal damage).
c) So...if your partner is the slower mon is taking 100% damage if the other mons die this turn probably.

For clarify better...the mechanic happen if only one pokémon is active and the others die.
 
Last edited:
latios777 said:
For clarify better...the mechanic happen if only one pokémon is active and the others die.
Click to expand...
Forget to say that after testing in original game, can confirm that. If you spam earthquake and you kill the oponent's faster mon and your partner and then you hit the oponent's last mon (who is more slow than the others) you hit that mon with 100% damage.
 
Sorry but if it's on cartridge it's not considered a PS bug, we don't try to make our own games, we aim to simulate the originals' link battles
 
Irpachuza said:
Sorry but if it's on cartridge it's not considered a PS bug, we don't try to make our own games, we aim to simulate the originals' link battles
Click to expand...
The video shows a link battle with blizzard dealing more damage to a foe than would normally be expected for a spread move. If PS doesn't implement that, doesn't that make this a PS bug?
 
  1. Are targets hit in speed order or position order? Currently, on PS, they are hit in position order. If it's by speed, is it modified or unmodified speed (boosts, trick room)?
  2. Do all individual effects apply in order/separately as well?
  3. How does this work with immunities?
 
Last edited:
Hydrametr0nice said:
  1. Are targets hit in speed order or position order? Currently, on PS, they are hit in position order. If it's by speed, is it modified or unmodified speed (boosts, trick room)?
  2. Do all individual effects apply in order/separately as well?
  3. How does this work with immunities?
Click to expand...
I have made longer posts explaining this mechanic (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/past-gens-research-thread.3506992/post-9880360) but to answer your questions:
  1. Targets are hit in speed order on cartridge, taking into account any speed modifiers. On showdown this is not implemented.
  2. I am not entirely sure what you are asking, but abilities like Intimidate, moves like Growl are in speed order as well, Shell Bell will activate at the end of the move and not after each target.
  3. Immunities are targeted as they would be based on speed, and they still count as remaining 'on the field' for the purpose of dealing single target damage.
It is important to note that this mechanic is only applicable in generation 4, because in generation 3 spread move multipliers are different, and even if you do KO the first target (based on position rather than speed in gen 3, which is correctly implemented on PS) you do not deal single target damage to the second.

Also as explained in the above post, there is an additional consideration of Explosion behaving differently* (in the sense that it has a different effect, because it KOs the user and therefore for the purpose of single target attacks, it does not count the user when checking what multiplier it should use) and this is also significant.

I tested the mechanics on cartridge (HeartGold) in the post linked above, but I would be happy to do further tests on cartridge or provide more details if needed.
 
oopsgtg said:
I have made longer posts explaining this mechanic (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/past-gens-research-thread.3506992/post-9880360) but to answer your questions:
  1. Targets are hit in speed order on cartridge, taking into account any speed modifiers. On showdown this is not implemented.
  2. I am not entirely sure what you are asking, but abilities like Intimidate, moves like Growl are in speed order as well, Shell Bell will activate at the end of the move and not after each target.
  3. Immunities are targeted as they would be based on speed, and they still count as remaining 'on the field' for the purpose of dealing single target damage.
It is important to note that this mechanic is only applicable in generation 4, because in generation 3 spread move multipliers are different, and even if you do KO the first target (based on position rather than speed in gen 3, which is correctly implemented on PS) you do not deal single target damage to the second.

Also as explained in the above post, there is an additional consideration of Explosion behaving differently* (in the sense that it has a different effect, because it KOs the user and therefore for the purpose of single target attacks, it does not count the user when checking what multiplier it should use) and this is also significant.

I tested the mechanics on cartridge (HeartGold) in the post linked above, but I would be happy to do further tests on cartridge or provide more details if needed.
Click to expand...
My second question is whether secondary effects occur after each hit or only after all hits. In modern generations, secondary effects activate only after damage is dealt to all opponents. Since in Generation 4, Pokémon take damage one at a time, when do those effects activate? For example, with Muddy Water.

Edit: your research looks great, I can use that to implement tests.
 
Last edited:
Hydrametr0nice said:
My second question is whether secondary effects occur after each hit or only after all hits. In modern generations, secondary effects activate only after damage is dealt to all opponents. Since in Generation 4, Pokémon take damage one at a time, when do those effects activate? For example, with Muddy Water.

Edit: your research looks great, I can use that to implement tests.
Click to expand...
Makes sense, thank you for clarifying. In that case the answer is that the secondary effect will trigger after each hit.
So for example in Gen 3 Icy Wind will hit the right slot then lower speed of that slot, then the left target then lower speed of that target.
In Gen 4 Icy Wind will hit the faster target then lower speed of that target then the slower target then lower speed of that target.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top