Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

I legit had no clue. I saw the mountain of likes on stupid posts but figured that was the usual flock and 95% of them weren't going to get reqs anyway. Every player I respect on the ladder and in the OU room was saying ban. All the ppl I played on my reqs run said pls vote ban.
I tried harder than a lot of people, most people, to get that mon deleted, and after writing lord knows how many paragraphs I wanted to have a little fun with the whole thing. Writing multiple serious persuasive essays on the subject wasn't fun. It felt unnecessary sometimes- redundant. idk. Why are these mons surviving? I plead insanity bro y'all got me twisted lol. I sorta see why the dude cheated lowkey. He was trying to put this meta on his back. Totally misguided but damn at least I know I'm not the only one confused about why players are voting DNB on unhealthy pieces in our game.
 
RainebowValiant said:
It's cheese that adds nothing to the tier is the main issue
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It literally adds an incredible amount to the tier what are you on about it creates so many opportunities for problematic mons to be checked and gives any pokemon coverage of its choice, it debatably I would say adds way too much to the tier. "Adds nothing to the tier" has always been code for "I don't like what it adds to the tier" and this is example #1000
 
Unstoppable1 said:
What are the arguments for Tera Blast ban? Tera Fairy Gouging is gone, Dragonite/Kingambit much rare TB users, tho they are a problem ngl
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That there's no other alternatives, Gliscor suspect -> ban I personally don't think is feasible rn. I don't think Tera Blast ban will move the needle nearly enough either but at this point I just dunno what else we can do
 
Honestly a tera blast suspect should default have regileki included and not even bother turning those two steps into a month or more. Leki is MID without tera blast. It COULD be fine with tb considering its ability was wrongly programmed when banned. Start up tera blast suspect this week with eleki and if it's voted to stay I for one guarantee I'll never mention it again.

How will cheating by the ban party be prevented in the future though? If it's been addressed i missed it.

I know that I don't need to say this but above people are missing the point of tera blast. The often stated problem of the gen is the matchup fishing. Tera blast is a factor that makes this worse. The point isn't for it to be used regularly on one abuser but when it lines up as a suprise KO Punching a hole in your team. It's hard enough to attempt to prepare for everything without your would be check or counter catching a random tera blast
 
LoseToRU? said:
I legit had no clue. I saw the mountain of likes on stupid posts but figured that was the usual flock and 95% of them weren't going to get reqs anyway. Every player I respect on the ladder and in the OU room was saying ban. All the ppl I played on my reqs run said pls vote ban.
I tried harder than a lot of people, most people, to get that mon deleted, and after writing lord knows how many paragraphs I wanted to have a little fun with the whole thing. Writing multiple serious persuasive essays on the subject wasn't fun. It felt unnecessary sometimes- redundant. idk. Why are these mons surviving? I plead insanity bro y'all got me twisted lol. I sorta see why the dude cheated lowkey. He was trying to put this meta on his back. Totally misguided but damn at least I know I'm not the only one confused about why players are voting DNB on unhealthy pieces in our game.
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For many reasons. Most people knew Kyurem was broken, but many voted DNB for personal reasons, for example the stall players voted DNB to save stall.
 
Mega64 said:
This has traumatized me. I've been crying all day and I'm still feeling sick.

Please think of the poor Pokemon that have been harmed by this. They are the biggest victims of all.
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I enjoyed this team untill yesterday, kinda sad
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RainebowValiant said:
SupaG is a great player, but he's also heavily biased due to being a stall player. I think this is interesting and should be considered, but don't pretend his vote was for many reasons other than Kyurem ban being bad for stall. Not a bad reason to vote, but something to consider.
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I think that this is a somewhat unfair evaluation of character. Obviously, the playstyle you play most often on ladder can skew your evaluation of certain topics, but it doesn't directly diminish the validity of the points he makes within the post. Furthermore, it feels a bit odd to point this out considering he hasn't brought that playstyle once throughout the entirety of OLT. Everyone can be biased due to liking to play a style, whether it be Offense, BO, HO, Balance, Stall, or even some niche things like TR/Weather/Terrain. That doesn't make their reasoning less correct implicitly.
Dead by Daylight said:
Except the result without cheating being discovered yet was a ban??
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They said without the cheaters' votes, it would be a DNB vote. While it's true that if the cheaters votes' stood, Kyurem would be banned, that obviously cannot happen without setting an atrocious precedent.
June Heat said:
I know banning Tera Blast seems to be a popular option among high ranking players, but I don't personally see how it helps. We get yet another influx of powerful borderline problematic Pokemon that may still be entirely busted thanks to Tera undoing like half a year's worth of progress to Maybe have a positive effect. Idk, I feel like we're better off attacking Kingambit, a well known problem, than getting rid of a move in hopes that Volcarona fixes everything.
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Both issues are problematic (and "influx" is insane considering volcarona would be heavily nerfed, Eleki would straight up suck, and nothing else would be freed with any level of haste compared to those two), but aside from top players, many simply "good" players, i.e. enough to get reqs, believe that Kingambit is a necessary evil (it's not), and at this point it will likely not get the support we need for it to leave unless there is a major change in playerabase perception. Tera Blast, on the other hand, has a much lower impact on the tier compared to removing Kingambit, and generally adds zero positive traits to the tier, unlike Kingambit, who's unhealthiness is somewhat justified by its utility in answering threats in OU.
 
ianlazerbeem said:
It literally adds an incredible amount to the tier what are you on about it creates so many opportunities for problematic mons to be checked and gives any pokemon coverage of its choice, it debatably I would say adds way too much to the tier. "Adds nothing to the tier" has always been code for "I don't like what it adds to the tier" and this is example #1000
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What Pokémon runs Tera Blast specifically to check something else and not to cheese 6-0s
 
Call me a doomer but with this happening, Gen 9 OU is never seeing another ban as long as it stays the current gen. Any suspect involving Tera/Tera Blast will get a drove of staunch anti-Tera ban voters seemingly out of nowhere because they don't want the generational mechanic to be touched (hopefully they don't cheat! hahaha...) and now that Kyurem is here seemingly to stay Gliscor will become much more contentious amongst the playerbase even though SD Tera Normal is literally Jesus on roids. Kingambit... cmon I know we all hate it but do we really think a Kingambit re-suspect is ever going to work? It's over.
 
Carl The Turtle said:
I think that this is a somewhat unfair evaluation of character. Obviously, the playstyle you play most often on ladder can skew your evaluation of certain topics, but it doesn't directly diminish the validity of the points he makes within the post. Furthermore, it feels a bit odd to point this out considering he hasn't brought that playstyle once throughout the entirety of OLT. Everyone can be biased due to liking to play a style, whether it be Offense, BO, HO, Balance, Stall, or even some niche things like TR/Weather/Terrain. That doesn't make their reasoning less correct implicitly.

They said without the cheaters' votes, it would be a DNB vote. While it's true that if the cheaters votes' stood, Kyurem would be banned, that obviously cannot happen without setting an atrocious precedent.

Both issues are problematic (and "influx" is insane considering volcarona would be heavily nerfed, Eleki would straight up suck, and nothing else would be freed with any level of haste compared to those two), but aside from top players, many simply "good" players, i.e. enough to get reqs, believe that Kingambit is a necessary evil (it's not), and at this point it will likely not get the support we need for it to leave unless there is a major change in playerabase perception. Tera Blast, on the other hand, has a much lower impact on the tier compared to removing Kingambit, and generally adds zero positive traits to the tier, unlike Kingambit, who's unhealthiness is somewhat justified by its utility in answering threats in OU.
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Not saying his reasoning is incorrect, I understand it completely and I said so in my post. It is important, however, to take note of other's biases when reading arguments.
 
RainebowValiant said:
What Pokémon runs Tera Blast specifically to check something else and not to cheese 6-0s
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You're going to have to be a little more specific about the interactions you're describing. Slotting ice for gliscor is common, literally every coverage is "specifically to check something else" because that is what coverage does, this is not a real question

I also don't like Tera blast your reasoning is just nonsense
 
ianlazerbeem said:
You're going to have to be a little more specific about the interactions you're describing. Slotting ice for gliscor is common, literally every coverage is "specifically to check something else" because that is what coverage does, this is not a real question

I also don't like Tera blast your reasoning is just nonsense
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Most tera blast users are sweepers looking to remove checks to cheese 6-0s. I'm looking for common counterexamples.
 
Roshino said:
We had a very... particular opportunity to experience the game with a "test-ban" of sorts.

Did anyone actually miss Kyurem at all? This was probably the change that made the game feel the smoothest to me afterward (excepting psychotic stuff like Terapagos).
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Kyurem made building so much freer. One less broken to worry about its 5 sets.
 
peepeepoopoo722 said:
It COULD be fine with tb considering its ability was wrongly programmed when banned.
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It would never be fine with TB because even with the nerfed Transistor, it's still the world's most obnoxious pivot that just volt switches on everything until it cleans late game because all the grounds not named Ting-Lu can't block it.
ianlazerbeem said:
It literally adds an incredible amount to the tier what are you on about it creates so many opportunities for problematic mons to be checked and gives any pokemon coverage of its choice, it debatably adds way too much to the tier. "Adds nothing to the tier" has always been code for "I don't like what it adds to the tier" and this is example #1000
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This is not what Tera Blast is used for most of the time. Almost always, it just adds some annoying match up fishy element to the tier that just enables already dangerous pokemon to bypass would be counterplay. Just because a couple pokemon slot TB Ice for Gliscor doesn't mean it's a healthy or desirable element of the tier.
 
Moyashi said:
It would never be fine with TB because even with the nerfed Transistor, it's still the world's most obnoxious pivot that just volt switches on everything until it cleans late game because all the grounds not named Ting-Lu can't block it.

This is not what Tera Blast is used for most of the time. Almost always, it just adds some annoying match up fishy element to the tier that just enables already dangerous pokemon to bypass would be counterplay. Just because a couple pokemon slot TB Ice for Gliscor doesn't mean it's a healthy or desirable element of the tier.
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Exactly. 9/10 Tera blast users are cheesemons like Iron Moth or Serperior looking to MU fish otherwise counters.
 
I missed Kyurem, they are my friend and we've been through a lot together. Kyurem was there when my partner dumped me and my dog ran away to join another family. Kyurem is the main reason I have Pokemon, which is the last thing I have left in my life. When Kyurem was banned from OU I lost my final reason to live.

I'm glad justice was served yesterday. A huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders.
 
Unstoppable1 said:
What are the arguments for Tera Blast ban? Tera Fairy Gouging is gone, Dragonite/Kingambit much rare TB users, tho they are a problem ngl
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Not to be a content creator trying to plug their content, but I'm gonna be a content creator trying to plug their content.


This video I made a couple months ago puts most of the arguments into perspective, as well as clearing up a few misconceptions around why people want it removed.
 
Mega64 said:
I missed Kyurem, they are my friend and we've been through a lot together. Kyurem was there when my partner dumped me and my dog ran away to join another family. Kyurem is the main reason I have Pokemon, which is the last thing I have left in my life. When Kyurem was banned from OU I lost my final reason to live.

I'm glad justice was served yesterday. A huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders.
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This is insane folks. Is this the work of Iron Mugulis and his goons? Only time will tell.
 
ausma said:
Not to be a content creator trying to plug their content, but I'm gonna be a content creator trying to plug their content.


This video I made a couple months ago puts most of the arguments into perspective, as well as clearing up a few misconceptions around why people want it removed.
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Girliepop we get it you want tblast banned :sob:
 
LoseToRU? said:
If I didn't meme too hard and vote DNB as a joke Kyurem would be banned...
The vote was 74-51. If I voted Ban it would be 75-50 which is 60%.
I'm sure it's too late to request my vote be changed, and even if my vote is disqualified Kyurem still remains unbanned.

These unique circumstance let us see what the meta is like without the broken mon. I've seen in OU chat some players saying they were DNB but after playing without it they realize their error.
Could we possibly have a quick revote with everyone who qualified last time? No new suspect, just the same ppl with legit reqs voting again. Even as I type this though it sounds weird. But also we can't suspect the same mon 3 times in one gen; it reflects so poorly on the community- it's terrible optics and sets a horrible precedent for future tiering decisions. We could still technically just have two suspects; the timeframe isn't bad and we do have a scandal. Just call it Kyurem suspect version 2.1.
I feel bad for trolling. I can live w Kyu in the tier but knowing so many ppl wanted it banned and it's not slightly because of me feels wild lol. Thousands of games will be affected because I wanted to be funny. Not sure how to process that.
Please have a quick emergency revote, and then move onto Gliscor as planned. Just moving on when a mon is so contentious it survives with a single vote is insane. Perhaps something like this can be factored into future suspect tests: If the vote is a razor thing margin then the mon is retested, or banned for a week then retested. Ignoring the fact that these mons are barely surviving isn't working- it's not properly listening to the community when they speak with their votes.
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(lightheartedly but also this is the worst butterfly effect in the history of SVOU)
 
I always thought that Tera was the problem with SV Ou but I was completely wrong. Tera is actually healthy but Tera Blast on the other hand, the more I look at it; I realized that it's really broken. It really flips the match and gives you a 80p stab which is stronger than hidden power was. I know people don't like Volc but I feel like Volc is a needed mon in Ou in my opinion. Volc is always going to be a very good powerful mon but never borderline broken until this Gen because of stab Tera Blast coverage like Espathra and Regieleki. I will love to see these 3 mons again in Ou if Tera Blast is banned. Having another Rapid Spin user, another Speed Boost mon which can help beat other booster energy paradox mons when it gets the chance to set up and Volc keeps the tier from going heckt. That's how I see things but that's just me. Just keep Tera and ban Tera Blast will be better. Other people may not see it that way and I fine with it. I understand.
 
Gonna be blunt here, Kyurem's survival has shot the metagame in the foot. There is so many potential teambuilding avenues that were effectively shot down because The ELO Lottery that is the Boundary Pokemon stayed. Instead of just cleanly transitioning into a Gliscor suspect and then seeing what happens, we now have to wait in this to let Kyurem re-settle into the gen and do the same things it was doing before, and then sew where we can go from there.

There's talk of a lot of issues, and what to suspect next, so im'a just quickly rapid fire my stance on it because I finally have some time for myself:

Tera and/or Tera Blast: Yeah, nice stretch, Elastigirl. The Ban Tera ship sailed the second the playerbase voted no on it's first test, and now, 2 years after the fact, when everyone now thinks it's necessary to keep because the whole tier's identity is built around it, you want it gone? Interesting priorities you got there, my friend. Good luck actually getting Pro-Tera players on your side, cuz it's gonna take more than a Christmas miracle to get Tera gone by now.

Kingambit: Oh cool, a small minority of top players are saying that a literal pillar of the tier shouls go. Let's take that risk, shall we? Consider this the second most unlikely ban of the gen. As much as i'd love to see Gambit axed, it's never going to get enough support, and i'd be surprised if we can agree to suspect it, let alone ban it.

Gliscor: The only thing amongst the sea of suspectees that can actually be reasonably argued, and it's still looking bleak. Have fun trying to convice people to ban Gliscor when they'll just point to Kyurem and go "See? We have a good Gliscor answer.".

I've seen a few other talking points, but i'd rather not bring it up, since i'm way less familiar on that. I'm still twiddling my thumbs trying to confirm my stance on Darkrai. Palafin would probably be too much with Kyurem, let alone without it.

I'm sure SV OU will eventually get to a point where we can say "Yeah, this is pretty problem free", but I don't see that happening unless the comunnity pushes for some big tiering action. Maybe the first place to start is waitinf for a few days or weeks, and then have a community survey on the tier to start with? I'm not completely sure
 
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