Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

I'll be brief, Kyurem Do Not Ban vote has given us 1 option in terms of possible short term action.
- Tera: too contentious definitely can't ban it
- Kyurem: lol
- Gliscor: too contentious, esp with Kyurem staying (even tho SD glisc is def broken imo but that's for another day)
- Kingambit: not enough support, people believe it's necessary in the tier (I disagree but that doesn't matter, what matters is what people think)
- Tera Blast: not enough support
- do nothing

If we are looking for tiering action in the near future, it'd have to be Tera Blast ban, and while I don't think it moves the needle enough it's better than nothing, which is the only alternative given based on the Kyurem vote. I am not gonna lie, I've kinda lost most morale for this tier atp personally but I think it's still possible to make productive change via action on Tera Blast. The issue is however, the lack of support or 'complaints' about Tera Blast bar a select few. I'm gonna be blunt here, and this is not fear mongering, regardless of how much you care about Tera Blast (personally I dont care much either but I am trying to be self aware) we NEED to be vocal on Tera Blast Ban if we want this tier to have the CHANCE of a long lasting future. There is no 'can' or 'should', need is imperative. The only other alternative is doing nothing and leaving SV in this state, which is honestly a large part of why I was worried about this Kyurem outcome in the first place. The entire tier is hinging on this, please keep my words in mind.
well, there is one other option: we realize sv ou as a tier is effectively lost and will have a player count of basically zero the second it stops being cg (we all know this), so we throw out the idea of a long-lasting future entirely and start dropping as many ubers as we can to at least give the youtubers some content for the rest of the gen. free palafin, free lugia, free solgaleo, free zama-c, free terapagos, free hearthflame, free bax, free espathra, free arch, free volc, and while we're at it free shed tail because we never got to see whether or not it was broken on sceptile
 
Last edited:
We should free Shaymin-Sky. Let's go gambling together as one.
this seems like an absolutely terrible idea, keep that fucker banned

hmm yes i enjoy having to face off against a 60% flinch chance and an 80% chance for a -2 spdef drop against an already fast mon, very cool thanks (ignore the 250 other threats + tera that plague this meta already, the fact that shit gimmick is still here is... wow, i have zero words left)

hopefully you get this and are just shitposting, but if you don't... well, here this be

anyways to whoever decided to lobby against kyurem then vote to keep it in this tier, you deserve a special place in hell (saying this very nicely)
 
well, there is one other option: we realize sv ou as a tier is effectively lost and will have a player count of basically zero the second it stops being cg, so we throw out the idea of a long-lasting future entirely and start dropping as many ubers as we can to at least give the youtubers some content for the rest of the gen
genius take, 12/10. Unban Flutter Mane and change SV OU to Brainrot Used. Fluttuah, Mane on that thang.

edit: im sorry
 
This sort of post makes me wish the Smogon forums had an equivalent to the skull emoji, which, btw, should exist
Personally, I'd be an advocate for a Disappointment react. But that's beside the point.
Sorry, I'm not trying to minimod, but it's difficult to read the metagame thread if you keep posting one liners and account for half the posts in the last 3 pages. Could you try to condense all your thoughts in one post instead?
Also, this. Please. It's honestly getting a tad annoying having to go through so many small one-liners just to read the thread. I'm being a bit of a hypocrite right now, seeing as this is a rather short post, but most if not all of my posts in this thread (discounting this one) have had at least some degree of substance and effort put into them. I hope this doesn't come off as rude, by the way - that's not my intention at all.

Edit: Great tip by Rekka's Backend above! You can also click reply on one post and then do the same on another - that'll let you reply to multiple things at once, too. It's how I do it.
 
Given the nature of the situation I fully understand why Kyurem was unbanned at this point, however, I do hope we can revisit it somehow? I feel the meta was headed in a genuinely good direction and the two weeks of playing the kyuremless tier I personally enjoyed the different developments that were popping up and the diversity within different structures with various different mons stepping up offensively and defensively. I havent been the biggest gen9 fan and the kyuremless meta actually interested me. I feel we were seeing the most diversity across all archetypes we have had most of dlc2.

Hopefully we can find a way to sort this out and reach some kind of compromise? I feel waiting another handful of months for kyurem suspect part 3 would just suck in so many ways and if the community feels strongly a certain way like i do we forego certain formalities. Like the cheating is one thing but the mon wouldve still been banned but the vote went bunk because of the obvious factors. On the other hand, if nothing is done soon about kyurem and the plan is to keep it around for a longer period of time, I'd like to see a Tera Blast test. In short, removing some variance aspects and reintroducing a hopefully less obnoxious volcarona theoretically helps particularly issues I think we are experiencing. Just my opinion and I dont want to write a paper on a subject that I'm kind of exhausted of cuz its not appealing so just infer my reasonings on the tera blast topic.

Edit; I don’t understand this let the meta settle stuff, yeah for formality sake a week or two is justified but there is no settling to be done. Experienced players are just gonna revert back to the process that worked for them before the ban, it was literally two weeks ago lol.
 
Last edited:
Finchinator said next suspect test was going to be Gliscor on Monday, assuming Kyurem vote was real but it wasn't so council is gonna wait a bit for Kyurem to re-enter the meta, and observe what happens / observe community input in order to figure out next best course of action
I don't envy their position at all. Considering multiple tournament players wanted it gone, as well as the vote being decided by one stupid joke, there seem to be two main courses of action.

- Keep it gone. People fucked up during voting and there is the argument that what is done is done. That would however go against the actual wish of the qualified base it seems, right? Well, the fact of the matter is the cheaters didn't fucking vote. The purpose of the suspect is to filter and listen to highly-skilled players, and some of the cheaters are for sure within that category, enough to swing the votes.

- Open a recount. There is the argument that that is an opportunity to rectify the dumbass joke and get the suspect back on track with the wishes of the qualified hypermajority since the result of the recount won't be affected by the absence of high-level tournament cheaters. That said, reopening a count to keep voting consistency in large part because of one dumb joke is a hard sell.


Should they keep it unbanned and let a Ubers-level pokémon roaming on a technicality, and then take months more to decide on a course of action? That may mean SV OU tiering takes a hit that won't be recoverable until the next game is out. 2025 is around the corner.

Should they re-ban it and maybe undermine the severity of the suspect process?

Whatever happens, they're fucked.

The suspectening has happened
 
Last edited:
Personally I think it should Stay Unbanned and Stay that way since this was what, the second test, and It came out Somewhat Scathed? Let's let the meta Settle and move on to other prospects.

Like Volcarona?
It's unfortunate that it lost by one vote and if bea just used their own vote instead of mailing in votes through other users, kyurem would be banned. But obviously the council calculated and came to this decision with that in mind.

I don't expect an expedited process over Kyurem at this point. Especially being its second suspect.

Time is ripe to entertain tera blast ban. Otherwise it will be do nothing for a while.

I've been playing with a team using assault vest careful ttar and assault vest zamazenta that has worked out pretty well. Good checks to near everything but don't last long. I gave up on passing wishes to them, rarely worked. The rest of the team is offensive wincons. 23% from moonblasts is fun and ttar can pick what special mon you need it to check with it's coverage options. Kinda weak outside of stabs though
 
Somewhat Scathed?
I think the main thing is that the suspect has beens insanely close every single time. It isn't as though it's been a huge margin vs ban and unban here, so I think assuming it as somewhat unscathed ignores that a lot of ppl do find it contentious. I feel the same way about Volc, as a lot of people find it absolutely nasty to deal with and hence why it had such a large ban %.

I'm not going to blame any singular person for this, this suspect has been a shitshow from start to finish and restart again. So I find the Kyu question to be deeply problematic. Especially since I found the Kyu-less meta to be deeply more interesting--A lot of developments were occurring, and even if Zapdos was seeing much use we were seeing counteracts to it that was keeping it in check along with not nearly as much Tinglu as I was hearing would come out. Gking is always going to exist, but Tinglu wasn't impressing me as much as i was hearing the doomsaying around it. At all.

Idk, I find the current standing to be very hard to contend with. The best answer feels like a TB ban to blanket check some threats I guess? The POS just feels constricting to deal with, and yes while you can guess sets based on team comp it still makes it immediately frustrating to deal with due to the unique defensive prosperities it brings itself.
 
TPP (and other mods): hey let's try to cut down on the one liners

The sea of one-liners that RainebowValiant and other dunderheads:

Shame that this happened, but my regards to Finch and the rest of the council for how they've handled it. Not really sure there was a better way to do so from what I've observed. Not an easy situation but they've done a good job.

Since Kyurem is going to be staying now for the foreseeable future (I could see a third suspect far down the line if it continues to be a problem), and there are no other Pokemon immediately on the radar as ban- or even suspect-worthy, I second the opinions that this is a good time to discuss Tera Blast. I do tend to lean towards banning it, but I'm not sold in this opinion. Looking at Pikalytics OU usage rates at the 1500+ ELO bracket, here's a list of Pokemon that use Tera Blast in the OU metagame, along with their overall usage rates and usage of Tera Blast per set, and usage of Tera Blast per team:
PokemonUsageTera Blast Usage (per use)Tera Blast Usage (total)
:landorus-therian:15.82%12.206%1.931%
:dragapult:17.24%14.147%2.439%
:raging-bolt:15.18%7.219%1.096%
:dragonite:12.84%3.713%0.477%
:iron-moth:12.39%36.739%4.552%
:kyurem:12.37%20.437%2.528%
:enamorus:6.26%34.593%2.166%
:heatran:6.18%7.352%0.454%
:serperior:3.17%74.239%2.353%
:sandy-shocks:0.91%76.767%0.699%
:thundurus-therian:0.90%59.681%0.537%
:polteageist:0.70%80.400%0.563%

I included all Pokemon who hit Tera Blast Dragonite (a known strong option in tours) levels of usage or higher (and Heatran because I felt like its stats were high enough to warrant as well). Obviously, usage isn't everything, but I found it interesting and a useful thing to look at if these talks are to happen. I see a couple different categories here: dedicated Tera Blast abusers, who you have to assume have some sort of Tera Blast shenanigans going on, and Pokemon who use it as a tech option. Volcarona and Regieleki, our banned friends, would fall firmly in the former camp as well.
 
Last edited:
TPP (and other mods): hey let's try to cut down on the one liners

The sea of one-liners that RainebowValiant and other dunderheads:

Shame that this happened, but my regards to Finch and the rest of the council for how they've handled it. Not really sure there was a better way to do so from what I've observed. Not an easy situation but they've done a good job.

Since Kyurem is going to be staying now for the foreseeable future (I could see a third suspect far down the line if it continues to be a problem), and there are no other Pokemon immediately on the radar as ban- or even suspect-worthy, I second the opinions that this is a good time to discuss Tera Blast. I do tend to lean towards banning it, but I'm not sold in this opinion. Looking at Pikalytics OU usage rates, here's a list of Pokemon that use Tera Blast in the OU metagame, along with their overall usage rates and usage of Tera Blast per set, and usage of Tera Blast per team:
PokemonUsageTera Blast Usage (per use)Tera Blast Usage (total)
:landorus-therian:15.82%12.206%1.931%
:dragapult:17.24%14.147%2.439%
:raging-bolt:15.18%7.219%1.096%
:dragonite:12.84%3.713%0.477%
:iron-moth:12.39%36.739%4.552%
:kyurem:12.37%20.437%2.528%
:enamorus:6.26%34.593%2.166%
:heatran:6.18%7.352%0.454%
:serperior:3.17%74.239%2.353%
:sandy-shocks:0.91%76.767%0.699%
:thundurus-therian:0.90%59.681%0.537%
:polteageist:0.70%80.400%0.563%

I included all Pokemon who hit Tera Blast Dragonite (a known strong option in tours) levels of usage or higher (and Heatran because I felt like its stats were high enough to warrant as well). Obviously, usage isn't everything, but I found it interesting and a useful thing to look at if these talks are to happen. I see a couple different categories here: dedicated Tera Blast abusers, who you have to assume have some sort of Tera Blast shenanigans going on, and Pokemon who use it as a tech option. Volcarona and Regieleki, our banned friends, would fall firmly in the former camp as well.
:pleadingemoji: i'm innocent (lie) but in all seriousness please ban tblast it's so toxic for the metagame. i love when my toxapex no longer counters iron moth because tera ground blast yay so fun
 
:pleadingemoji: i'm innocent (lie) but in all seriousness please ban tblast it's so toxic for the metagame. i love when my toxapex no longer counters iron moth because tera ground blast yay so fun
Ok ok, but hear me out; Tera Blast is actually great for skill expression because insert lower tier pokemon does this and that in the FuckYou tier, therefore, Tera Blast is completely fine, and even if it isn't, the positives can and will always outweight the negatives...

clueless
 
I personally didnt get reqs for the :kyurem: Suspect test, but I wasnt completely sure about what we should do with it either.

In one hand, keeping :kyurem: would make balance become awful to play on the metagame, since :kyurem: can either overwhelm it, or get past throught its checks by fishing for freezes, if you have ever run into :kyurem: while having :slowking-galar: as your switch in, you probably have at least once got frozen at any point.

On the other hand, banning :kyurem: would make balance a better playstile, yes, but would very likely turn the meta into an avalanche of bans, starting with :kyurem:, then following up with :gliscor:, and who knows maybe also :darkrai: and :ogerpon-wellspring: added to the mix, completely killing the offensive threats that we have as options, and turn the meta into that boring :zapdos: and :ting-lu: fest that we had some months ago.

I was aware that the :kyurem: vote was very close due to a lot of people talking about that, and I wasnt still completely sure about what the correct route should have been in order to save the metagame, and then right when the votes were revealed, I made my mind, and when it was announced yesterday that :kyurem: got unbanned due to the voting manipulation scandal, at first I felt annoyed but then realised that maybe this is an opportunity to take steps into a diferent direction to make the metagame better.

As you know, :volcarona: got banned months ago, I personally got reqs for this suspect and voted to Ban, and I dont believe neither I or the rest of people that voted ban on that moment made a mistake, as :volcarona: was clearly a broken set up sweeper with so much versatility, but now this thought came back to me and realised, maybe :volcarona: wasnt the problem as a whole, but maybe is Tera Blast.

At first I was hesitate with the idea of banning Tera Blast, since this paired with the Tera mechanic opens the door for a lot of creativity and diversity on the teambuilder, and we should only get rid of the abusers, but since a couple weeks ago I have started to see this argument as pointless, and I will explain why.

Why is Tera Blast the problem and not the abusers?
Technically speaking, every pokemon can abuse of Tera Blast, but what is the point of that, if people is playing to win and will use only the already good pokemon that the metagame offers to abuse Tera Blast instead of more niche options that are less consistent. If we ban the abusers, the metagame will evolve and try to find another abuser that tries to replicate what the previus abuser used to do (unless there is no other pokemon that can come close to do the same), because that is how metagames work, they adapt every moment. Let me put it this way.

Why would you use any offensive fire type with Tera Blast, if you have a better abuser in :volcarona: and :gouging-fire: who are more consistent.

Why would you use any offensive electric type with Blast Ice, if you have a better abuser in :regieleki: who is more consistent.

Why would you use any niche Dragon Dance user with Tera Blast, if you have better abusers in :kyurem: :dragonite: :roaring-moon:

Why would you use any other Sword Dance user with Tera Blast when you have :kingambit: :scizor: and :rillaboom: as options.

If you go and ban every abuser, another one will likely come to replace that role, the easiest example is how :iron-moth: turned from a UU pokemon by usage, to an actual OU threat once :volcarona: got banned, because guess what, it tries to replicate what :volcarona: did.

By removing Tera Blast, we remove the tool that actually turns any potential offensive threat into an autowin button into the correct match up.

This of course does not apply to any pokemon, for example :espathra: imo with or without Tera Blast is a stupid cheesy mon that should never be allowed again in the meta. And also a Tera Blast ban wouldnt kill the versatility and creativity on the teambuilder, since pokemon like :kyurem: and :volcarona: would still be excelent Tera users, but without the extra coverage move tool.

What pokemon could we unban with a Tera Blast ban?
I believe only 2 Uber pokemon would be candidates to be released back into OU with Tera Blast being removed, those being :volcarona: and :regieleki:.
As I mentioned before, I believe :espathra: would still be an absurd and cheesy pokemon, that would force you to bring :kingambit: or :scizor: into every game in order to not lose.
:gouging-fire: despite being an excellent abuser of Blast Fairy, has other sets and options that would just do the exact same it did before, and besides, it just got banned a like a month ago lol.


Would a Tera Blast ban solve the metagame?
Nobody can assure that, but I believe this would be the correct direction in order to get a better metagame while avoiding an avalanche of bans. Having :volcarona: back in the metagame would give balance teams an actual wincon vs offense teams that heavily rely on special set up sweepers like :darkrai: and :raging-bolt:, and also have an actual good check for :kyurem:. We would still need to see if :volcarona: without Tera Blast keeps being a broken threat, but I dont think it would be the case, as it would limit it to only run defensive Teras, and having only Bug, Fire and Grass as offensive options, it would also become stone walled by Dragon types, Unaware users :skeledirge: and :clodsire:, and :garganacl: if it lacks Giga Drain.

This is my first time posting in this thread, and I rarely come to see it, I dont expect to make more posts in the future but I hope the idea of getting rid of Tera Blast is on the table and more people discuss about it.
 
Last edited:
Case closed.
now that we have cut off the cancer of the radical pro-ban fraud we can go on to revisiting Tera blast over Volcarona, electro shot over arch, palafin and bundle with freed Eleki and rain, stored power over Magearna, and other pieces of the past we can fix.
...??? I sincerely hope you're purely referring to the cheating voters as "fraud" and not the pro ban Kyurem side as a whole, otherwise that comment is just pointlessly toxic for no reason.

That aside, Tera Blast is one thing and I fully agree with looking into it for the health of the tier but the rest is wild and ridiculous. Electro Shot over Arch? Go and sell me how the move is broken when it only functions as well as it does because Arch has the bulk, typing and ability to let it stay in and rack up boosts repeatedly. Bundle? There's zero universe where this mon is freed and I don't know why you included it. Unless you ban TB, Eleki is not suited for this tier either.

I'm not even sure what "pieces of the past we can fix" is supposed to mean. Implying that banning Bundle, Eleki and Magearna were mistakes?
 
If you had seen Finchinator's post, you'd know that even if there had not been cheating that the result would have been Do Not Ban. If you wanted Kyurem banned, maybe you and your friends should have gotten reqs themselves since if they had, the result would likely have been a ban. 2 more ban votes would have changed the verdict to a ban.
Ah yeah just checked that out, and I did try getting reqs myself but didn’t have the time. Life happens and I’m not gonna dwell on that, I still find it unfortunate that there weren’t gonna be enough votes anyways :/
 
There is no "get the suspect back on track" it's on track. The people voted and the result of all the legitimate votes is Kyurem remains. Case closed.
now that we have cut off the cancer of the radical pro-ban fraud
??? What are you talking about? Please elaborate.
we can go on to revisiting Tera blast over Volcarona, electro shot over arch, palafin and bundle with freed Eleki and rain, stored power over Magearna, and other pieces of the past we can fix. This is a rebirth for the tier and we should treat it as such
None of this, except maybe tera blast due to being a special case, is going to happen because tiering policy favors banning mons over moves. This isn't going to change in the middle of a generation, and may only change for gen10. Palafin and Bundle should never be touching OU regardless.
 
:pleadingemoji: i'm innocent (lie) but in all seriousness please ban tblast it's so toxic for the metagame. i love when my toxapex no longer counters iron moth because tera ground blast yay so fun
This is another one-liner btw, I don't want to minimod but over a quarter of your Smogon posts have come from this thread, tonight, about 2 of which have had any amount of substance to them.
Ok ok, but hear me out; Tera Blast is actually great for skill expression because insert lower tier pokemon does this and that in the FuckYou tier, therefore, Tera Blast is completely fine, and even if it isn't, the positives can and will always outweight the negatives...

clueless
It does suck that the possible Tera Blast ban would effect lower tiers where it might be better off (its probably healthy in like PU or something idk), but unfortunately that is just the way tiering policy goes. OU tiering is for OU first and only.


Looking at the chart I posted a few minutes ago, after looking at it more, I think my biggest takeaway is... how low usage rates are across the board? If Tera Blast usage rates were separated out from non-Tera Blast usage rates, the only Tera Blast Pokemon to be OU would be Iron Moth. No others are really even close. I do think that the bans of the better Tera Blast users plays into this, but I really thought there would be more.
 
WHAT that's not a oneliner i brought up multiple things including a legit opinion there bruh :sob: does everything i say need to be a paragraph or something /genq (INSERT FILLER TEXT BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING ELSE TO SAY INSERT FILLER TEXT BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING ELSE TO SAY INSERT FILLER TEXT BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING ELSE TO SAY INSERT FILLER TEXT BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING ELSE TO SAY)
If there is not enough to say, just don't say it. It's rare when a community with a good percentile of shitposters unites to say "please stop talking". Apologies for being rude.

Being excited is all good and fun but please understand that when you're not saying anything of substance repeatedly the thread gets clogged and very difficult to read.

Resonating what others have said: I'm not trying to minimod but please do take a break and for the love of god don't respond to this message
 
So, here's why we should suspect Tera Blast, in a more informal and descriptive way:


1) It's the worst kind of unpredictable: there's no telegraph that a mon is carrying it.

The closest comparison, Hidden Power, was usually fairly predictable; you wouldn't know whether RSE Gyarados was packing Flying or Rock, but you could be confident it had one of the two, and even a surprise tech was only truly punishing if your mon was 4x weak or very fragile. As movepools improved (and as Hidden Power was nerfed from 70 BP to 60 BP) the move largely vanished except to aim for those 4x weaknesses, like bringing HP Fire to remove Ferrothorn. It could still be used as part of a lure, but for the most part it was just a routine part of a mon's movepool.

Tera Blast isn't like that. Move pools have increased to the point that mons aren't forced into using Tera Blast for coverage (except for Regieleki), and because nothing* "needs" to run Tera Blast, you can't effectively predict when it's present. Virtually every offensive mon can swap out a coverage move for Tera Blast, and most can viably run several different types without committing to being a lure, which magnifies the surprise factor.

* - See below for the one exception.

The biggest problem, though, is the lack of tells. Until the move is revealed, the only hint would be the lack of the coverage move it replaces, and asking players to pick up on a move being missing is a bit much. When an element is both punishing and unpredictable, that element is likely to cause problems.

To be clear: the above is why I support the suspect, and is the actual "Why is this a problem that needs to be removed?" answer. Points below are supplementary benefits, not reasons to ban the move.

2) By limiting offensive coverage, a ban would slightly dial back the offensive power of the tier.

It would do this in a way that doesn't nerf any specific team styles, the way a Booster Energy ban would, nor does it weaken offense's matchup into the already-solid defensive cores. In other words, it doesn't noticeably alter the tier's overall balance, which reduces the chance of ensuing problems.

3) It immediately brings back Volcarona and Regieleki, while not automatically bringing back Espathra.

Espathra is a cancerous bird, but since it can still use Tera Fairy + Dazzling Gleam to break past Dark types, it's not an automatic return to OU. Regieleki adds another Rapid Spinner and Volcarona's bulky sets defensively check a wide range of mons, while its offensive sets lose their best matchup fishing tool.

4) No mons* would be so damaged by this change that they'd lose all viability.

Serperior might, as its special coverage consists of Dragon Pulse and literally nothing else, but it does have decent enough utility moves to experiment with, so it's not guaranteed. Other than Serp, though, no OU-legal mon is reliant on Tera Blast for viability, and so nothing gets banished to the lower tiers, even though a handful of mons do get nerfed.

5) Checks and counters become more reliable.

This is fairly straightforward, but the ability to make a plan is pretty important for a skilled tier. Pokemon naturally has a lot of RNG to keep things surprising, and terastalizing in general allows the user to disrupt their opponents plans (while at the same time enacting their own - it's not randomness) in a way that can be planned for. Were Tera Blast more common, it'd be easier to plan around, but that rarity makes it perversely difficult to predict.
 
Back
Top