Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Avira said:
You forgot the hidden 5th option, suspect Kingambit, which even players such as Storm Zone might vote ban on unlike with Kyurem. Kingambit is more toxic in design than Kyurem is 'cause of Supreme Overlord packed with ridiculous priority for a mon with that much natural bulk, and while there are players who want Kingambit to stay no matter what, I believe there's a chance offense players who repeatedly save Kyurem time after time again might be willing to punt Kingambit out of the tier.
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It's not any specific playstyle demographic that's keeping Kyurem, for example SupaGmoney arguably the best stall main was very adamantly pro Kyurem. The reason why a Kingambit suspect is not worth the effort to push / won't work is because majority of the playerbase believes it's necessary at this point. Whether that's true or not can be debated, but a very large amount of players of all levels of skill are afraid of the possible consequences of a Kingambit ban as well as how that'd effect teambuilding. Again whether this is warranted or even true, does not matter, in the nature of a suspect test it all depends on what's most likely the community is able to agree upon. Kingambit and Gliscor (with Kyurem) I just can't see ever crossing 60%+ ban rate in my opinion.

Meanwhile Tera Blast maybe if we as a community advocate hard for it knowing that there's no other option. Part of why I am more confident on Tera Blast being potentially bannable via a suspect test, is because it's a blank slate. There's no die hard Tera Blast defenders so to speak, no one besides a few even have strong feelings torwards it. If we as a community can advocate for it and have people listen, people who are largely unbiased torwards the moves as of right now, we have a chance to make positive change.
 
RainebowValiant said:
Honestly the kyurem suspect left me so disheartened. Did the SV OU playerbase not see the absolute travesty of BW's community and decide to take major action on the numerous broken threats? Did they not see how NatDex, for all the bullshit in that tier, got rid of million other brokens? What were the SV OU playerbase thinking? I'm still so baffled
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This implies things are broken here. Shit's fine at the moment imo, and now I can post this:
 

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In lieu of the Kyurem unban I just wanted to summarize SupaGmoney’s post from the Kyurem suspect text, which helped me personally a ton with Kyurem. I am summarizing their words because I am not good at the game, but they are. My summary will be lacking complexity in nuance for the sake of brevity. If anybody wants to read their well worded post in full it is post #198 in the second Kyurem suspect discussion thread.

Set Diversity: predicting the set.
-DD on hyper offense
-Sub/Tect (usually) double hazard removeable
Examples:
-https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-790953
Double removal fat (Storm Zone team)
-https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-788546
Double removal vs a Veil HO
-https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-788591
-https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-788690
Hyper Offense
-https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-789028
SubTect or Specs. “Even if you were unsure of if Kyurem was specs or sub and swapped in your Reuniclus just to scout, you would have been totally fine. Even if you do guess wrong, which is rare, the common counterplay is extremely splashable, and primary counterplay options overlap in the sets they are able to check as discussed in the next section.”

Notable Switch ins:
“Specs: Glowking (Gking), Balloon Gholdengo, Iron Crown, Kingambit, Moltres, Balloon Tinkaton, Clefable, Scizor, both Ninetales, Blissey, Tyranitar, AV Hoopa, and more.

Sub Protect: Gking, Moltres, Iron Crown, AV Primarina, Corviknight, your own Kyurem, Garganacl, Tinkaton, Clefable, Scizor, both Ninetales, Blissey, Skeledirge, Tyranitar, whirlwind Ting Lu, Weavile, AV Hoopa and more.

DD/Mixed: Gargnacl, Tinkaton, Scizor, Iron Crown, AV Primarina, Corviknight, Moltres, Alolan Ninetales, Kingambit, Iron Treads, Clefable, Dondozo if not mixed, Rotom, Toxapex, Phys Def AV Gking, Pecharunt, and more.”
“This does not mention any answers that use tera, such as Tera Steel Hydreigon and Latios which are phenomenal counters to Kyurem and actually devastate most teams that feature Sub/Tect Kyurem. And to those saying that mons like this are too niche, here’s myself winning with a Hydreigon team in OLT playoffs, using Hydreigon as a valuable trader into Samurott and Landorus in the absence of Kyurem.”
-https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-790941
-https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-790934

Two balance teams with multi Counters
-https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-791378?p2
Tace team has several counters
-https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-790953
“The Storm Zone team that I edited and showed earlier also has multiple checks to Kyurem, namely AV Gking, Zamazenta to Revenge, my own Kyurem, G-Weezing and Corviknight if DD, and Whirlwind Ting Lu.”

This is highly edited and to get much more information you can go read their post. For those of you like me who are not great at the game or building, SupaGmoney also offered their support in the Stall Discord https://discord.gg/5kesazdPxF

All credits of the above ideas go to SupaGmoney and if they wish for me to delete this post of course I will. I just know it was very helpful to me and I figured some lower ladder players (like myself) might be dismayed and the overturned vote and might find this information helpful.
 
Dragonair Bot said:
In lieu of the Kyurem unban I just wanted to summarize SupaGmoney’s post from the Kyurem suspect text, which helped me personally a ton with Kyurem. I am summarizing their words because I am not good at the game, but they are. My summary will be lacking complexity in nuance for the sake of brevity. If anybody wants to read their well worded post in full it is post #198 in the second Kyurem suspect discussion thread.

Set Diversity: predicting the set.
-DD on hyper offense
-Sub/Tect (usually) double hazard removeable
Examples:
-https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-790953
Double removal fat (Storm Zone team)
-https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-788546
Double removal vs a Veil HO
-https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-788591
-https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-788690
Hyper Offense
-https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-789028
SubTect or Specs. “Even if you were unsure of if Kyurem was specs or sub and swapped in your Reuniclus just to scout, you would have been totally fine. Even if you do guess wrong, which is rare, the common counterplay is extremely splashable, and primary counterplay options overlap in the sets they are able to check as discussed in the next section.”

Notable Switch ins:
“Specs: Glowking (Gking), Balloon Gholdengo, Iron Crown, Kingambit, Moltres, Balloon Tinkaton, Clefable, Scizor, both Ninetales, Blissey, Tyranitar, AV Hoopa, and more.

Sub Protect: Gking, Moltres, Iron Crown, AV Primarina, Corviknight, your own Kyurem, Garganacl, Tinkaton, Clefable, Scizor, both Ninetales, Blissey, Skeledirge, Tyranitar, whirlwind Ting Lu, Weavile, AV Hoopa and more.

DD/Mixed: Gargnacl, Tinkaton, Scizor, Iron Crown, AV Primarina, Corviknight, Moltres, Alolan Ninetales, Kingambit, Iron Treads, Clefable, Dondozo if not mixed, Rotom, Toxapex, Phys Def AV Gking, Pecharunt, and more.”
“This does not mention any answers that use tera, such as Tera Steel Hydreigon and Latios which are phenomenal counters to Kyurem and actually devastate most teams that feature Sub/Tect Kyurem. And to those saying that mons like this are too niche, here’s myself winning with a Hydreigon team in OLT playoffs, using Hydreigon as a valuable trader into Samurott and Landorus in the absence of Kyurem.”
-https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-790941
-https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-790934

Two balance teams with multi Counters
-https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-791378?p2
Tace team has several counters
-https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-790953
“The Storm Zone team that I edited and showed earlier also has multiple checks to Kyurem, namely AV Gking, Zamazenta to Revenge, my own Kyurem, G-Weezing and Corviknight if DD, and Whirlwind Ting Lu.”

This is highly edited and to get much more information you can go read their post. For those of you like me who are not great at the game or building, SupaGmoney also offered their support in the Stall Discord https://discord.gg/5kesazdPxF

All credits of the above ideas go to SupaGmoney and if they wish for me to delete this post of course I will. I just know it was very helpful to me and I figured some lower ladder players (like myself) might be dismayed and the overturned vote and might find this information helpful.
Click to expand...
SupaG is a great player, but he's also heavily biased due to being a stall player. I think this is interesting and should be considered, but don't pretend his vote was for many reasons other than Kyurem ban being bad for stall. Not a bad reason to vote, but something to consider.
 
I was enjoying building some new teams to explore certain cores and heat mons for the 5 seconds Kyurem was banned, but eh, stuff happens.

Not intending to make this a one-liner though and I want to actually talk about a core I’ve been liking over the past few days though. I’ve experimented a bit with Never-Melt Ice Mamoswine since it has the niche over Kyurem in neutrality to Stealth Rock and STAB Earthquake + Ice Shard (and even Knock Off) and paired it with HDB Volt Switch Raging Bolt to cover the bulky Water-types of the tier. I’ve been pretty happy with the team I made around the core so far since Ice + Ground + Electric all on STAB puts a ton of pressure on everything in the tier.

Sad part of all that is how Kyurem dogwalks the core by itself, but the pair of SpD Corviknight + IronPress Roar Zamazenta help check it a little bit (unless both get Frozen twice in a row by Freeze-Dry. Which just happened to me today. Why did those illegitimate voters have to ruin a good thing? Apparently Kyurem would have stayed anyways, but still getting Frozen by this thing is painful).
 
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Finchinator said:
If you go out of your way to legitimately get voting requirements and then vote the opposite of what you want to happen, you need to take a long look in the mirror. You may end up turning to stone if you make eye contact with yourself, but otherwise some reflection is a good first step.
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Understandable. At the time it was funny, but only because I thought Kyu was an obvious ban. My vote didn't feel like it mattered lol..
The result should not have been that close to begin with. This is on those 10 lazy mfs who could have easily gotten reqs but didn't. This is on all those sycophants who don't think for themselves. The list goes on, and all the way to the top. I didn't want to be put in this position. Some casual ladder player shouldn't singlehandedly decide the fate of things of this magnitude. Idk I'm honestly sorry, no response needed.
 
LoseToRU? said:
Understandable. At the time it was funny, but only because I thought Kyu was an obvious ban. My vote didn't feel like it mattered lol..
The result should not have been that close to begin with. This is on those 10 lazy mfs who could have easily gotten reqs but didn't. This is on all those sycophants who don't think for themselves. The list goes on, and all the way to the top. I didn't want to be put in this position. Some casual ladder player shouldn't singlehandedly decide the fate of things of this magnitude. Idk I'm honestly sorry, no response needed.
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Did you read the damn suspect thread? That was not gonna be close.

But honestly, I understand. We all make mistakes. I'm not going to be hard on you.
 
SDK03 said:
Why did those illegitimate voters have to ruin a good thing?).
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If you had seen Finchinator's post, you'd know that even if there had not been cheating that the result would have been Do Not Ban. If you wanted Kyurem banned, maybe you and your friends should have gotten reqs themselves since if they had, the result would likely have been a ban. 2 more ban votes would have changed the verdict to a ban.
 
So let me get this straight:

Multiple skilled, often tournament players got themselves banned because they did not wish to actually do the suspect (while, at the same time, there being a consensus that the suspect test must be a little harder so it would be indeed easy for them)

LoseToRU? memed a little too hard and, in a way, broke the camel's back

-

If any of the above were untrue, Kyurem would be banned. Which means, there was in fact a hypermajority consensus among skilled players that Kyurem should be gone. It survived on a sequence of very unfortunate events.

That being the second suspect, unless the council agrees that LoseToRU? fucked up royally and allowed either a recount or something of the sort, Kyurem will likely be cursing our shadow for the rest of this generation.


oh.
my.
god.
 
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Avira said:
If you had seen Finchinator's post, you'd know that even if there had not been cheating that the result would have been Do Not Ban. If you wanted Kyurem banned, maybe you and your friends should have gotten reqs themselves since if they had, the result would likely have been a ban. 2 more ban votes would have changed the verdict to a ban.
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Except the result without cheating being discovered yet was a ban??
 
Roshino said:
So let me get this straight:

Multiple skilled, often tournament players got themselves banned because they did not wish to actually do the suspect (while, at the same time, there being a consensus that the suspect test must be a little harder so it would be indeed easy for them)

LoseToRU? memed a little too hard and, in a way, broke the camel's back

-

If any of the above were untrue, Kyurem would be banned. Which means, there was in fact a consensus among skilled players that Kyurem should be gone. It survived on a sequence of very unfortunate events.

That being the second suspect, unless the council agrees that LoseToRU? fucked up royally and allowed either a recount or something of the sort, Kyurem will likely be cursing our shadow for the rest of this generation.


oh.
my.
god.
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Kyurem's survival is a tale for the ages. It's not Bronzover
 
I know banning Tera Blast seems to be a popular option among high ranking players, but I don't personally see how it helps. We get yet another influx of powerful borderline problematic Pokemon that may still be entirely busted thanks to Tera undoing like half a year's worth of progress to Maybe have a positive effect. Idk, I feel like we're better off attacking Kingambit, a well known problem, than getting rid of a move in hopes that Volcarona fixes everything.
 
RainebowValiant said:
SupaG is a great player, but he's also heavily biased due to being a stall player. I think this is interesting and should be considered, but don't pretend his vote was for many reasons other than Kyurem ban being bad for stall. Not a bad reason to vote, but something to consider.
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My post was purely informational and not about ban/DNB. I just learned a lot from it so I wanted to post in an off chance it might help someone else. This post was the main reason why I support a two separate threads for suspect discussion because I read them for educational reasons, not ban reasons. To me, the two separate threads are less to reduce toxicity and more for informative discussion/research.
 
Dragonair Bot said:
My post was purely informational and not about ban/DNB. I just learned a lot from it so I wanted to post in an off chance it might help someone else. This post was the main reason why I support a two separate threads for suspect discussion because I read them for educational reasons, not ban reasons. To me, the two separate threads are less to reduce toxicity and more for informative discussion/research.
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Dw, I understand
 
Am I the only one who's not being a doomer right now? This was a stolen election where the wrong result was chosen due to interference from a radical pro-ban user, and now the result has been corrected to reflect the playerbase's actual voted preference. We can and should give thanks to the hero that brought this information to light and we can be glad that no other suspects were determined through illegitimate means. This was a fraud on the beautiful people and leadership of the great site of Smogon and it's a great thing that it's been found out, and props to the council for relaying the information towards us in a prompt and level headed manner. And it's a great thing the head of this operation will no longer be able to continue his crimes, though I have to give him props, he was pretty good player. Here's to a future of honest voting and our beloved ice dragon, along with by extension our beloved scorpion friend remaining in the tier. Glad this was all sorted out and thanks once again to the heroic whistleblower!
 
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