Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

So where do you realistically see Orthworm carving a niche for itself exactly? I'm gonna be honest, this thing hasn't been on my radar at all, but it's got that "Hey. I do one or two things pretty decently with so and so advantages" thing nailed down, so it has to count for something.

I was thinking some kind of balance or bulky hazard stack?
Maybe something like this:

Orthworm @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Earth Eater
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Body Press
- Iron Defense
- Heavy Slam
- Spikes / Stealth Rocks

Niche being a "good" Kyurem check with access to both Spikes and Stealth Rocks, and can be a ok ID + BP user in the late game?
 
Has anyone else noticed the ladder is almost entirely HO now? I know the great prognosticator CTC said Kyu was needed to keep the meta from falling into balanace spam but it seems to have gone the other way. And there’s nothing else to ban except maybe Tera blast? so it seems like we’re sort of fucked for the rest of the gen.
 
Has anyone else noticed the ladder is almost entirely HO now? I know the great prognosticator CTC said Kyu was needed to keep the meta from falling into balanace spam but it seems to have gone the other way. And there’s nothing else to ban except maybe Tera blast? so it seems like we’re sort of fucked for the rest of the gen.
People are clamoring for a Tera Blast ban, and we'll probably get it next year. Finch said that he wants to put it off because it's "polarizing". Nothing we can do except just wait it out.
 
Has anyone else noticed the ladder is almost entirely HO now? I know the great prognosticator CTC said Kyu was needed to keep the meta from falling into balanace spam but it seems to have gone the other way. And there’s nothing else to ban except maybe Tera blast? so it seems like we’re sort of fucked for the rest of the gen.
Well, if one Dragon / Ice type isn't enough to fix the meta, let's do two! Bring back Baxcallibur for our basedlord RAAAAAAAGH
 
Honestly, I wonder if a Gliscor suspect is still usefull after the Kyurem deban, since the Gliscor suspect was heavily discussed before the cheatery I wonder why it's still usefull to do this.
 
Took me a second because life is, you know, busy, but allow me to pull a Morkal


SYLVEON
1729370578474.png


Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Ice/Poison
EVs: 212 HP / 228 Def / 68 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Calm Mind/Tera Blast/Roar/Hyper Beam
- Wish
- Protect​

Now that Kyurem is back in the tier on a technicality, we have to think of ways of dealing with it without crippling other matchups. Going HO and stacking hazards and phasing until it dies kinda works (until it doesn't but I digress), and outstalling it can work as well but having to go either full HO or full stall is boring as fuck, which is why I thought of the newest degenerate eeveelution to stop it on its tracks.

The set above is made in such a way that it can hold down anything from modest Specs to Adamant loaded dice and anything in between. I'm not one for shiny Pokémon but this guy HAS to be shiny. Gotta keep the theme clear when fucking up the ice dragon.

First, the main reason why Sylveon is chosen over other options: Pixilate Hyper Voice is the only voice-based Fairy-Type move in the game that can uninvested threaten an OHKO on Kyurem after rocks. It being voice-based, SubTect also gets OHKO'd like the Ubers bitch they are. And also because it's cute.

212 HP for bulk and the magic 7% lefties healing, 68 SpA to deal 75.1% to offensive sets (OHKO after rocks), rest in defense/bold to round the rest of the matchups.

Tera Ice is a strong defensive type here, similar logic to that one Tera Ice Hydrapple set I saw some time ago. Though outside of Kyurem it only sheds Poison weakness, it can be used in a pinch when you get chipped over the course of a game for a surprise KO, and you can also use Tera Blast Ice if you're feeling spicy because you know fuck Gliscor. You can also go Tera Poison instead for the classic weaknesses inversion approach, and it comes with the advantage of being immune to Toxic which is a god-send if you're running CM to threaten game over. Roar for phasing. Hyper Beam for the Youtube clip

Wish+Tect is required not only for recovery, but also because wishpassing is still strong regardless of match-up and you could go for other shenanigans to fuck Kyurem and ONLY Kyurem but then you're useless if the enemy doesn't have one.

The rationale behind how it beats all of its sets. All of the sets below are assuming Modest/Adamant for maximum damage. Jolly/Timid sets get rolled outside of crits and freezes. Without palpable prior chip, Sylveon avoids *all* 2HKOs, so unless game conditions are outside the norm and you play your hand right and safe, you shouldn't lose to the common Tera Ground/Electric, and Tera Ice can only break through in very specific circumstances.

SPECS

Sylveon takes 59% on an Ice Beam max roll. Counting Leftovers, on a switch-in and on a following protect you can take a second Ice Beam and wish, recovering some health in the process (with Lefties, a Wish+Protect cycle heals 62% instead of 50%). That is not advisable however because the opposing Kyurem player is on an advantageous field because of Freeze fishing, so the game plan here is to get SR up ASAP and KEEP IT UP. On a first SR switch Sylveon just kills in a single Hyper Voice. No Draco Meteor. No questions asked.

BOOTS ATTACKER

The same as above, but with the difference that Sylveon just wins harder because it doesn't hit nearly as hard. Very safe, save for an Earth Power SpD drop on a switch-in, Sylveon's natural Fairy typing evades all SE hits and Meteor, so you can play for a CM or a regular 2HKO more easily.

LOADED DICE

Similar interaction to Specs, but with the difference that Kyurem cannot boost speed with Scale Shot. Even if the enemy Kyurem gets a read and DDs on you, you can take the +1 and kill after rocks similar to Specs. If you switch in on an attack you can just Wish before attacking for insurance. If you're chipped you can Tera to take one more hit before taking it out. Leftovers ensures no Icicle Spear 2HKO from a 54% damage high roll.

MIXED NMI DD

Again, similar to Loaded Dice but with the difference that it's very flowchart-y and you can only lose in a unlucky Freeze-Dry, crit or on a double max hit Icicle Spear at +1, or with enemy Tera Ice spent with a double max hit Icicle Spear.

SUBTECT

Just scream at the motherfucker until it stops moving. Max 27% damage dealt, gets immediately OHKOd by Hyper Voice if it attempts setting up a Substitute, can only win on freeze hax.

----------------------

When in doubt, scream at it. Real loud.
 
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Took me a second because life is, you know, busy, but allow me to pull a Morkal


SYLVEON
View attachment 679813

Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Ice/Poison
EVs: 212 HP / 228 Def / 68 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Calm Mind/Tera Blast/Roar/Hyper Beam
- Wish
- Protect​

Now that Kyurem is back in the tier on technicality, we have to think of ways of dealing with it without crippling other matchups. Going HO and stacking hazards and phasing until it dies kinda works (until it doesn't but I digress), and outstalling it can work as well but having to go either full HO or full stall is boring as fuck, which is why I thought of the newest degenerate eeveelution to stop it on its tracks.

The set above is made in such a way that it can hold down anything from modest Specs to Adamant loaded dice and anything in between. I'm not one for shiny Pokémon but this guy HAS to be shiny. Gotta keep the theme clear when fucking up the ice dragon.

First, the main reason why Sylveon is chosen over other options: Pixilate Hyper Voice is the only voice-based Fairy-Type move in the game that can uninvested threaten an OHKO on Kyurem after rocks. It being voice-based, SubTect also gets OHKO'd like the Ubers bitch they are. And also because it's cute.

212 HP for bulk and the magic 7% lefties healing, 68 SpA to deal 75.1% to offensive sets (OHKO after rocks), rest in defense/bold to round the rest of the matchups.

Tera Ice is a strong defensive type here, similar logic to that one Tera Ice Hydrapple set I saw some time ago. Though outside of Kyurem it only sheds Poison weakness, it can be used in a pinch when you get chipped over the course of a game for a surprise KO, and you can also use Tera Blast Ice if you're feeling spicy because you know fuck Gliscor. You can also go Tera Poison instead for the classic weaknesses inversion approach, and it comes with the advantage of being immune to Toxic which is a god-send if you're running CM to threaten game over. Roar for phasing. Hyper Beam for the Youtube clip

Wish+Tect is required not only for recovery, but also because wishpassing is still strong regardless of match-up and you could go for other shenanigans to fuck Kyurem and ONLY Kyurem but then you're useless if the enemy doesn't have one.

The rationale behind how it beats all of its sets. All of the sets below are assuming Modest/Adamant for maximum damage. Jolly/Timid sets get rolled outside of crits and freezes. Without palpable prior chip, Sylveon avoids *all* 2HKOs, so unless game conditions are outside the norm and you play your hand right and safe, you shouldn't lose to the common Tera Ground/Electric, and Tera Ice can only break through in very specific circumstances.

SPECS

Sylveon takes 59% on an Ice Beam max roll. Counting Leftovers, on a switch-in and on a following protect you can take a second Ice Beam and wish, recovering some health in the process (with Lefties, a Wish+Protect cycle heals 62% instead of 50%). That is not advisable however because the opposing Kyurem player is on an advantageous field because of Freeze fishing, so the game plan here is to get SR up ASAP and KEEP IT UP. On a first SR switch Sylveon just kills in a single Hyper Voice. No Draco Meteor. No questions asked.

BOOTS ATTACKER

The same as above, but with the difference that Sylveon just wins harder because it doesn't hit nearly as hard. Very safe, save for an Earth Power SpD drop on a switch-in, Sylveon's natural Fairy typing evades all SE hits and Meteor, so you can play for a CM or a regular 2HKO more easily.

LOADED DICE

Similar interaction to Specs, but with the difference that Kyurem cannot boost speed with Scale Shot. Even if the enemy Kyurem gets a read and DDs on you, you can take the +1 and kill after rocks similar to Specs. If you switch in on an attack you can just Wish before attacking for insurance. If you're chipped you can Tera to take one more hit before taking it out. Leftovers ensures no Icicle Spear 2HKO from a 54% damage high roll.

MIXED NMI DD

Again, similar to Loaded Dice but with the difference that it's very flowchart-y and you can only lose in a unlucky Freeze-Dry, crit or on a double max hit Icicle Spear at +1, or with enemy Tera Ice spent with a double max hit Icicle Spear.

SUBTECT

Just scream at the motherfucker until it stops moving. Max 27% damage dealt, gets immediately OHKOd by Hyper Voice if it attempts setting up a Substitute, can only win on freeze hax.

----------------------

When in doubt, scream at it. Real loud.
This feels like such a s***post because sylveon kind of sucks otherwise but it would be REALLY funny if this is actually a thing that can be used against other pokemon in ou lol. Sylveon is such an interesting choice for a kyurem counter that I have to be impressed
 
Tera Ice is a strong defensive type here, similar logic to that one Tera Ice Hydrapple set I saw some time ago. Though outside of Kyurem it only sheds Poison weakness, it can be used in a pinch when you get chipped over the course of a game for a surprise KO, and you can also use Tera Blast Ice if you're feeling spicy because you know fuck Gliscor. You can also go Tera Poison instead for the classic weaknesses inversion approach, and it comes with the advantage of being immune to Toxic which is a god-send if you're running CM to threaten game over. Roar for phasing. Hyper Beam for the Youtube clip
You had me in the first half you didn't have to make it increasingly more entrancing. And then you had to say it could be a Youtube clip. This is brilliant and looks hilarious as fuck. May test this out and build around it in a few months.
 
My "random kyu check" shitmon of choice is obviously Frosmoth. Really specially bulky, resists Ice/Ground, freeze immune, and has Quiver Dance to boost against Kyurem.
 
My "random kyu check" shitmon of choice is obviously Frosmoth. Really specially bulky, resists Ice/Ground, freeze immune, and has Quiver Dance to boost against Kyurem.
Unfortunately Frosmoth gets ruined by Scale Shot variants, and it really struggles outside of SpA Kyurem matchups. Its typing is simply atrocious. If it takes a single Knock Off and loses HDB it ceases being a real mon. You could make it the designated Tera hog in a team. There was this one high-rated RMT with it but I can't remember who

You had me in the first half you didn't have to make it increasingly more entrancing. And then you had to say it could be a Youtube clip. This is brilliant and looks hilarious as fuck. May test this out and build around it in a few months.

lmao yeah, I could up the ante a bit more but decided against it to avoid bloating the post:

It ruins Valiant, Darkrai, Zamazenta, and Dragapult, as well as any Dragon/Dark/Fighting asshole running around the tier I can think of. Even would-be thuds like Glowking and Crown struggle to make progress because of Wishpassing. You could go Pixie plate or Modest for more aggression with Draining Kiss but by then you're a souped up revenge killer and you can't really switch-in (you hit real fuckin hard though)
 
Unfortunately Frosmoth gets ruined by Scale Shot variants, and it really struggles outside of SpA Kyurem matchups. Its typing is simply atrocious. If it takes a single Knock Off and loses HDB it ceases being a real mon. You could make it the designated Tera hog in a team. There was this one high-rated RMT with it but I can't remember who



lmao yeah, I could up the ante a bit more but decided against it to avoid bloating the post:

It ruins Valiant, Darkrai, Zamazenta, and Dragapult, as well as any Dragon/Dark/Fighting asshole running around the tier I can think of. Even would-be thuds like Glowking and Crown struggle to make progress because of Wishpassing. You could go Pixie plate or Modest for more aggression with Draining Kiss but by then you're a souped up revenge killer and you can't really switch-in (you hit real fuckin hard though)
Sylveon sounds like it has some merit this gen because of how many targets it hits. I should try it. What are its best partners?
 
Sylveon sounds like it has some merit this gen because of how many targets it hits. I should try it. What are its best partners?

Classic Fairy-Type stuff.

Make sure you have something to absorb Scizor and Crown's steel shenanigans. Also Wish and no pivoting moves (Baton Pass my beloved) means you need recipients that can take the first hit to then benefit from the Wish. Alomomola looks good here because this Sylveon set fucks with Kyurem so you don't have to worry much about Freeze-Dry. Since Sylveon is running Wish, you can go AV or just go all-in and run double Wish with some hard-hitting BO teammates.

A couple hard checks to Kingambit because it's SV OU. This specific set was meant for and probably works best on balance, so make sure you have some threatening mons to receive wishes in regular matches. You also need consistent SR on the field for the game plan to work best. This set doesn't run HDB (you could but you're threading the needle against Specs and Leftovers + WishTect is really good synergy), which means good, consistent spinning is a must. BU Tusk looks good for the above.

-

TL;DR: Bulk-Up Tusk and Alomomola

From then you build normally I guess. Make sure you're not murdered by Wellspring and things should start falling in place.
 
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Iron Valiant @ Expert Belt
Ability: Quark Drive
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Stellar
EVs: 76 Atk / 224 SpA / 208 Spe
Naive Nature
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt
- Knock Off
- Close Combat

Definitely need more experimenting with but this is a fun set I've been liking based on a couple days of testing (though the team I am using it on could be better).

IDK how other players feel, but I've been finding the Booster Speed Val that you see on most sample teams to be very underwhelming as of late. Sure, its ability to serve as a one-time form of speed control is nice, but 90% of the teams you see on ladder will be packing one of Ghold, Gking, Moltres, Tinkaton, or Primarina that will force Iron Valiant out and make the item feel useless. For an unskilled player such as myself, I find this extremely annoying and it makes Valiant feel a bit underwhelming whenever I use it. This set doesn't entirely fix the issues, as Ghold is still a massive problem with Air Balloon, as does Colbur Gking, but the combination of Expert Belt + Tera Stellar gives Valiant a massive damage boost that lets it eliminate a lot of its usual checks from higher ranges, which is nice you don't like predicting like me. I've found it to be nice vs some of the bulky offense / balance teams with a bit of clever play, though Gliscor is obviously extremely annoying.

224 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 82-97 (21.4 - 25.3%) -- 0.2% chance to 4HKO
224 SpA Expert Belt Tera Stellar Iron Valiant Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 300-355 (78.3 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

224 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 82-97 (21.4 - 25.3%) -- 0.2% chance to 4HKO
224 SpA Expert Belt Tera Stellar Iron Valiant Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 298-350 (74.6 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

224 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Tinkaton: 67-80 (17.9 - 21.3%) -- 4.3% chance to 4HKO
76 Atk Tera Stellar Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tinkaton: 286-338 (76.4 - 90.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (after 18% chip from Moonblast)

76 Atk Tera Stellar Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 266-314 (88.3 - 104.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

224 SpA Tera Stellar Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Iron Crown: 60-71 (18.6 - 22.1%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
76 Atk Expert Belt Tera Stellar Iron Valiant Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Crown: 269-317 (83.8 - 98.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

224 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 174-205 (45.5 - 53.6%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO
224 SpA Tera Stellar Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 232-274 (60.7 - 71.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

224 SpA Tera Stellar Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 66-78 (16.7 - 19.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
76 Atk Expert Belt Tera Stellar Iron Valiant Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 16 Def Slowking-Galar: 317-374 (80.4 - 94.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (after taking 16% chip from Moonblast)

76 Atk Expert Belt Tera Stellar Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 456-538 (88.7 - 104.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

224 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 157-186 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO
224 SpA Tera Stellar Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 210-248 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO Iafter taking 41% chip from Moonblast)

224 SpA Expert Belt Iron Valiant Thunderbolt vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Primarina: 130-154 (40.4 - 47.9%) -- 57% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
224 SpA Expert Belt Tera Stellar Iron Valiant Thunderbolt vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Primarina: 156-185 (48.5 - 57.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

224 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 77-91 (24.4 - 28.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO
76 Atk Expert Belt Tera Stellar Iron Valiant Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 190-226 (60.3 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Good pivoting does make this set struggle a bit, but this can easily be circumvented by strong partners like Samurott-H, which can punish pivoting attempts with spikes while checking the likes of Ghold and Darkrai with AV. I think this set could be potentially very strong if paired up with something like Zamazenta, or Kyurem, though I haven't tried out those combos yet.
 
That's an interesting set, Magcargo, which seems to improve Iron Valiant's match-ups into a lot of fatter mons. I can see it being a viable option rather than some meme set that is too niche to have any real practical use. Booster Speed Iron Valiant does have a tendency to be forced out easily as you say.
 
Since the SD Gliscor discussion went nowhere again, I thought I might bring up another talking point. What do people think about Treads here? Though weak to EQ, it is pretty decent into Facade/Knock Off variants of SD Gliscor. It is also faster and gets Ice Spinner.

If only Gengar still had Levitate, it would be a really good mon for Gliscor. Just don't switch in on the Knock Off. There is technically Haunter, but it isn't good enough. Gengar would already be niche by gen 9 OU standards.
 
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