Hell, if people were begging for Gliscor's removal mid-Kyurem test, and wanted it banned immediately afterwards, then the way I see it, Daddy Freeze Dry and Big Meaty Claws are both the problem.
Better to deal with one of them than none of them
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Better to deal with one of them than none of them
(Note: Most of the following is a perspective moreso than a counter argument on my part.)
Kyurem really wasn't Gliscor's main counter all things considered if you get past the "Ice into 4x Weak Ice target" idea.
Kyurem has very few safe entries into Gliscor without a Pivot (several of which can't do much against Gliscor either) considering how much it hates the mon's typical Progress Making tools (Knock Off, Toxic, Spikes stacking) or just stray attacks (30% from EQ or Poisoned Facade isn't negligible on a mon that needs Leftovers for recovery), it's only a dangerous or winning interaction once it's on the field, but getting there isn't really free. Even with as busted as Kyurem is, a team using it as their primary Gliscor contingency wasn't well constructed. At the same time, Gliscor doesn't answer Kyurem directly either so it's not like people are compelled to keep it in the tier to answer that in turn.
I'd go as far as to argue that Kyurem being around makes Gliscor even harder to deal with. When your team has to account for a powerful mixed attacker with several Balance breaker options, it's tricky to also account for the free-progress Scorpion that can runaway with momentum off even a hint of passivity and recovering 25% health just for existing for 2 turns. Both mons in different ways absolutely choke your space for teambuilding to a very cramped design space if you want to fully account for them, so it's entirely possible that us being stuck with Kyurem for the time being will make people MORE inclined to remove Gliscor as an extreme constraint on team structures.
Uberpon needs to go. I agree that her and Kyurem check Gliscor, which could hinder a potential suspect ban. Broken v broken v broken; this trio is like rock paper scissors.
Uberpon doesn’t have any consistent answers. Save some unviable BS like Intimidate max defense Salamence or something. All the other dragons get cracked by Play Rough. She completely massacres fat. Then when you think you have her beat she Encores you and nukes the switch in. Can’t even hax her with FatDos or FatTres because Ivy Cudgel is non-contact. This gal is busted.
Uberpon doesn’t have any consistent answers. Save some unviable BS like Intimidate max defense Salamence or something. All the other dragons get cracked by Play Rough. She completely massacres fat. Then when you think you have her beat she Encores you and nukes the switch in. Can’t even hax her with FatDos or FatTres because Ivy Cudgel is non-contact. This gal is busted.
Wellspring I can see as very demanding but I wouldn't really call it an RPS broken relationship with Kyurem and Gliscor. Kyurem's no safer for Oger to switch into than vice versa (assuming Play Rough to 2HKO since it doesn't have any other move to touch it with) but Oger also really hates Spikes given the mask lock so it doesn't really work as a repeated threat to Gliscor by the same token.
And I'm gonna be honest, at this point, massacring Fat teams for Gen 9 OU just feels like a trait of half our Attackers. Whether or not you think that's balanced, it's not particular enough to Ogerpon without additional elaboration.
And I'm gonna be honest, at this point, massacring Fat teams for Gen 9 OU just feels like a trait of half our Attackers. Whether or not you think that's balanced, it's not particular enough to Ogerpon without additional elaboration.
Ogerbroad is a good breaker but it’s not difficult to check, Booster Energy users or really just anything that’s faster can force it out, KO, or force a Tera, fast pivots can heavily chip it with U-Turn, Dragapult in particular can status it and is commonly seen on both fat and balance teams. As with most breakers in the tier, priority completely shits all over it, First Impression in particular. Encore is an issue on more than just Ogerbroad, Dragonite and H*wlucha are also staple abusers of Encore, I’d genuinely say Encore is more banworthy than any of those.
Ogerbroad also lacks two notable features that make a Pokemon broken: Tera abuse and item variability. Ogerbroad’s SpDef boost is not really hard to manage and it’s actually a pretty predictable Tera, Tera Grass Imoth and Heatran completely shits all over Ogerbroad in particular. Its lack of an item also makes it a lot easier to deal with because it makes it harder for Ogerbroad to come in, if you get up T-Spikes before it comes in then it is simply not going to sweep.
I see, an interesting answer.
Does anyone know what the council’s plans are for the meta? I don’t see a Gliscor ban being particularly helpful. Although since the voters love offense, it could happen. The meta all just offensive spam now with any sort of bulky playstyle at a huge disadvantage. I don’t see anyway out of the current meta except waiting for people to get bored.
It's been confirmed Gliscor will be suspect tested sometime in the near future. A community survey may also happen, but this one comes from Ausma's word only, so I wouldn't put much stock in it at the moment. At least not until we get more information
Yeah idt a Glisc ban is meaningful or helpful to the issues but I know top players hate it so maybe it will go and make the meta even more offensive.
The metagame is very far from all offense spam right now. And gliscor restricts balance builds far more as they lack varied options to stifle Gliscor. And we don’t need a way “out of the current meta” when it is mostly good.
People in this discussion thread often mistake "I don't like this Pokémon/metagame" with "this Pokémon is broken/this metagame is bad"
No, Garg isn't broken. Is it fun? No. But I've heard the take that Garg is broken an unfortunate amount of times.
Is Gen 9 OU filled to the brim with mons that NEED to be banned? I wouldn't say so. There are only 2 or 3 major issues right now. But people often mistake the idea of "I don't like Gen 9 OU" with "Gen 9 OU NEEDS to change" and it bothers me. It doesn't need to change. It doesn't matter whether you like the meta or not, others do. And that doesn't mean any Pokémon are or aren't broken.
I can see banning Gliscor helping balance, but you should check out mid ladder if you think the meta isn’t extremely offense heavy. Even a lot of top players are saying balance is bad right now, Pinkacross posted a video this week about all of the HO on the ladder.
Lmao
1) Pinkacross also made a video saying he believes Bulky Hazard Stack is the #1 playstyle
2) Mid ladder is not representative of the metagame
3) All playstyles are viable, it's just that HO is easiest to play at mid ladder
Conclusion: this point is stupid
Thanks for the reply!
1) bulky h-stack is good right now, doesn’t change that offense is the predominant/best playstyle.
2) you’re 100% right. theres still a significant uptick of offense around 1600-1700 where a lot of top players test.
3) viable does not equal balanced. Most balance type playstyles are at a significant disadvantage right now.
4) Chill calling me stupid :)
I ladder up a new alt every single week; last week I played 137 games on ladder. There is definitely a lot of offense, but only some of it is HO and there’s still plenty of balance and stall. Anyone saying the metagame is strictly HO is simply lying or exaggerating to a great degree.
That shit is flat out not true I'm sorry. Balance isn't at a significant disadvantage right now. Balanced-based playstyles such as the aforementioned Bulky Hazard Stack are still extremely solid rn. Also, again, HO is common not because it's the #1 playstyle, though it can be argued as #1, because it's the easiest to play and ladder with.
As President of the Garganacl-hater delegation, I must respond to this allegation. Garg is an uncompetitive, cheesey, annoying POS. That is not synonymous with “broken.”
Making the metagame unhealthy, undesirable, excessively matchupy, or “less fun” are all fair critiques in evaluating pokemon. I’ve reiterated on several occasions that the standard for “get Pokémon X” out of the tier should not limited to the sole interpretation of “Pokemon X is solo destroying the tier.” Only the most egregious suspects will live up to that narrow definition.
tbf once gliscor gets banned and offense mons can run around unchecked it'll dawn on people that there's something that needs to be done. if only we had a way to get rid of mons that are harmful to the metagame that was based on community support...
All Gliscor has to do is tera into not-water and it becomes the perfect Kyurem counter.
It's immune to freeze, it's bulky on both sides with some EV's so it shrugs off mixed threats, it out-heals subtect and doesn't care about pressure. Its threatening enough to prevent multiple dragon dances.
Or it can lay hazards and force a long, switching heavy endurance/chip game, Kyurem's other big weakness.
Gliscor is unironically one of the best Kyurem checks in the tier but hey, 4x weak to ice so obviously Kyurem deletes it from the tier apparently.
It's immune to freeze, it's bulky on both sides with some EV's so it shrugs off mixed threats, it out-heals subtect and doesn't care about pressure. Its threatening enough to prevent multiple dragon dances.
Or it can lay hazards and force a long, switching heavy endurance/chip game, Kyurem's other big weakness.
Gliscor is unironically one of the best Kyurem checks in the tier but hey, 4x weak to ice so obviously Kyurem deletes it from the tier apparently.
Yeah, that always rubbed me the wrong way. Kyurem's good into Gliscor, but it's not like it's as simple as "Put Kyurem on team = Gliscor isn't a problem" like some players have made it sound
Gliscor is widely known as a double agent for being both a stallmon AND a stallbreaker in fatter structures. The only thing that can break through is upfront damage because it is immune to Spikes, shrugs off SR and general chip damage, it is a Knock Off absorber, immune to status and does well vs any slower-paced strategy really. Not to mention the SD vs utility rabbit hole.
If all of the above is true AND it is also consistently checking offensive strategies (its supposed bane) then it has no actual weak match-ups.
I mean, even Kyurem struggles against offensive pressure.
Gliscor is arguably one of the mons keeping Balance down. It's essentially immune to passive damage and exploits a lot of the common Balance mons that can't do anything back to it and/or can't check it over the span of an entire match. Offense does better into it because they can do enough damage to pressure it significantly. Although it's a tough situation because Gliscor is also one of the best bulky mons to check offensive threats with. But it's definitely not a clear cut "oh voters love offense spam so they're banning stuff to make it better"
That's not entirely true. First of all, forcing out a Tera is generally a win in of itself. Second, Tera Water wouldn't work on Freeze Dry. So it isn't any Tera that can handle Kyurem. Third, the natural speed tie of both having base 95 speed favors Kyurem because Gliscor cannot run all the bulk it needs for both sides and max speed on the same sets. Furthermore, Gliscor isn't speed boosting. But Kyurem can be DD. So more often than not, Kyurem would go first or at least speed tie and hit a less bulky set very hard. Finally, Gliscor does care about Pressure because moves like Protect, EQ, and Toxic being gone can make counterplay drastically easier. (Although Pressure doesn't impact Protect)
What is true is that Kyurem isn't the thing holding Gliscor down. Neither one really wants to switch into the other one. There are other mons in the tier with Ice moves or other things they can do against Gliscor. There has been plenty of talks of various form of counterplay in this thread. Kyurem being gone wouldn't change most of that.
Breloom redeeming times bros.