Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

About Kingambit, the issue is that people who are good at mindgames will find it not too bad to deal with, and people who are bad at mindgames will find it broken, at least in my eyes.

About Clefable, calling it a B- pokemon really shows the playstyles you use. Bulky Hazard Stack LOVES a Rocker that's immune to hazards and therefore can take Knock Offs from Pokémon such as Tusk, and those sets can fit Ice Beam easily.

It's also crucial for stall, as it's a fantastic role compression utility Pokémon, cramming Rocks, Wish, and a Knock absorber in one slot.

For Gliscor... idk about yall, but Gliscor being banned won't make Stall good, I'm sorry. It simply will not. Stall is so bad into so many things this gen and one problem Pokémon (THAT STALL USES TO GREAT EFFECT) won't change fucking shit. Stall will always be mediocre at best in SV OU and pretending otherwise is a lie.
 
Magcargo said:
Despite :Iron Jugulis: getting a lot of hate in the overused tier, I must admit that this mon always does decently whenever I whip it out. Strangely has never felt outclassed by Darkrai when I use it due to Booster Energy + access to coverage that Darkrai wishes it had like Hurricane, Hydro Pump, and Earth Power. I just wish it's speed tier was a little better - getting outpaced by Ogerpon-W after a Booster Energy proc is lame + Bolt MU is annoying, but for a supposedly bad Pokémon,I feel like Juggy winds up fitting onto lot of random team comps quite snugly, whether it be E-Terrain, Rain, or Darkspam. The typing is just so nice into Gambit, Tusk, and Gholdengo.
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Been testing it on A Welcome Guest ‘s rmt. Its a decent HO lead that messes with fatter teams thanks to fast Taunt, Ground Immunity, and Hurricane + EP. Also gets access to Knock to support typical hazard stacking HOs. However its reliant on landing Hurricanes, so its not something that consistently performs on a game-to-game basis. I also theorycrafted Specs or Booster on Rain since it has one of the strongest Hurricanes in the game and a natural Sucker resistance Pre-Tera.

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Flying Iron Jugulis Hurricane vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 197-232 (50 - 58.8%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Flying Iron Jugulis Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 214-254 (41.6 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Flying Iron Jugulis Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 187-221 (48.8 - 57.7%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
 
Conflux123 said:
Doesn't it have to fish for crits to break through Skarm and Corv?
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no? if they are foolish enough to Iron defense they'll learn that sacred sword ignores stat changes. sure corv Brave bird but Skarm? barely even a Gallade counter
Mimikyu Stardust said:
okay on paper, good in theory, perfect with agility/webs/trick room, then you test it and:

-Max speed SD Gliscor (most common set at the moment)
-Samurott boots spam
-Moltres brave bird
-bulky twave dengo
-just ting lu in general not caring it got hit by a super effective sacred sword and one shot you back
-fast offensive lando
-fast defensive lando
-great tusk killing you after hazards with 0 attack
-ghost spam
-iron valiant with 10000 hazards
-sucker punch
-cinderace one shotting you
-every single ogerpon, especially grass


and many.... many more okay and good pokemon that just destroys gallade. and gallade cant just be gallade on its own u need set up and so much support at that point just use band zamazenta, keldeo or..... :iron-valiant:
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this is very right, and I shouldn't argue with it but

Tinglu?
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 507-595 (98.6 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
That Tinglu?

but indeed Gallade cannot slot in 9 moves to counter all that.
 
UltraSword said:
I wouldn't be surprised if it is the former but I think a dark type on rain could be helpful
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Hi, my name is Samurott-H and I am impossible to wall in the rain. Oh, Overqwil is kind of fun too.

Speaking of rain, I’ve done a lot of experimenting. Still fun af rn despite all the Uberpon and Long Neck. Just a list of not-so-common on rain but great rain choices:

Samurott-H
Zapdos (why am I never seeing it this Gen?)
Dragonite
Manaphy
Keldeo
Basculegion (both)
Golduck
Thundurus-Therian (walls Long Neck)
Scizor
 
You guys should try Gallade on rain, it gets teleport and can set rain! It's a great idea for any team! /s

Also if yall have any way to make Toxapex GOOD on a balance PLEASE tell me. I've been trying to get this passive ass idiot to work on a balance for so long. Every time I try it just becomes a shitty tspikes hazard stack or a semistall. How do I cook this it's so against my building style
 
RainebowValiant said:
Rock Paper Scissors is a game that you can win over 33% of the time despite it being a 33% win 33% draw 33% loss game on paper.
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Doesn’t answer the question… what techniques is someone who is “good” at sucker punch mind games using? If such a person actually exists?

I’d recommend reading the linked post as it’s the gold standard for this topic.

RaikouLover said:
That’s what my hunch was. Thank you for confirming this. So by the same token, does this mean switching out is always best play for the target when it is not 1v1 end game?
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No problem, though the true thanks should go to u/bbg and those who coded the simulation!

The article assumes switching isn’t an option (endgame scenario). But if you can switch I would do so.
 
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RS25802580 said:
Doesn’t answer the question… what techniques is someone who is “good” at sucker punch mind games using? If such a person actually exists?

I’d recommend reading the linked post as it’s the gold standard for this topic.
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Unfortunately, humans are not random number generators, and will tend to click the same amount of times consistently. Most players will not click setup moves into a gambit 8 times in a row, like EVER. I'd like to see a game where that happens. The odds are therefore not 1/9 VS 8/9.

I don't really know how to word this so sorry if it's unclear. But the individual players' mindgames, especially in tournament games where you may know the opponent, definitely come into play.
 
Magcargo said:
My faith in the suspect process was shaken as well. Seeing OU's top talent trying to cheat in order to rid the tier of a fair and balanced Pokemon like Kyurem has left my heart torn and my faith weakened. Can we ever trust the suspect process the same way again? What else will players cheat on and rig to get their preferred outcome on? We have already seen botting occur on surveys at an alarming rate, with thousands of botted votes on an ealier survey this generation where other honest Pokemon like Kingambit and Gholdengo were targeted with 5s despite that not reflecting the playerbase's true beliefs and values. Thankfully that incident was easily caught, but who's to say a more skilled or clever cheater couldn't manipulate things to match their desired preference? The thought it deeply troubling - and it should be to all of us.

I must once again thank Finchinator and Ausma for being true beacons in this communitiy, dedicating much of their own time and effort to rooting out these instances of fraud, as well as other talented contibutors such as the showdown staff. Above all, what should be prioritized in this tier is fairness and security in order to best reflect what the playerbase wants. The system should not bend its will to fraudsters and cheaters.
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"Fair and balanced" sorry but Kyurem wasn't fair and balanced or else he wouldn't have two suspect test and if the troll hasn't voted no ban he wouldn't even be here but I am agree that I also cannot trust the suspect no more after this.
 
RS25802580 said:
Doesn’t answer the question… what techniques is someone who is “good” at sucker punch mind games using? If such a person actually exists?

I’d recommend reading the linked post as it’s the gold standard for this topic.


No problem, though the true thanks should go to u/bbg and those who coded the simulation!

The article assumes switching isn’t an option (endgame scenario). But if you can switch I would do so.
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"good at mind games" here. There isn't really much of a science to the stuff. You're spending the first 10-20 turns determining how willing your opponent is to take risks and how impatient they are when it comes to clicking attacks, and after that it's really just intuition. Generally that information is enough to have a decent success rate (at least much more than 50/50).

Worth noting there is a LOT more information to be gathered than just which moves they click. How long they take to choose a turn, what exactly they're predicting you'll do, and even really minor things like when they turn on battle timer (if at all) can help you break down your opponent's decision making.
 
Maxicheese said:
"Fair and balanced" sorry but Kyurem wasn't fair and balanced or else he wouldn't have two suspect test and if the troll hasn't voted no ban he wouldn't even be here but I am agree that I also cannot trust the suspect no more after this.
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Unfortunately, Kyurem exists. And that's alright-ish. While counterplay is limited and building IS restricted, the playerbase will survive and it's not the end of the world. I'm kinda tired of the constant complaining over this tier and while I dislike the suspect process I'm also tired of how much people talk about it instead of having actual insightful conversations about OU Pokémon in the OU discussion thread.
 
RainebowValiant said:
Unfortunately, humans are not random number generators, and will tend to click the same amount of times consistently. Most players will not click setup moves into a gambit 8 times in a row, like EVER. I'd like to see a game where that happens. The odds are therefore not 1/9 VS 8/9.

I don't really know how to word this so sorry if it's unclear. But the individual players' mindgames, especially in tournament games where you may know the opponent, definitely come into play.
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This assumes you know something about the opponent. Such as a tournament scenario where you have seen the opponent play before, or encountering a second set of mindgames after learning from the first one in a single game. This doesn’t apply to the vast majority of ladder games where you haven’t seen your opponent before and learned nothing about them.

Perhaps there is some ways to glean a player’s tendencies from their general gameplay, such as an aggressive player being less likely to use up all their sucker punch PPs, but these connections are tenuous at best.

And people do click setup 8 times in a row, I have encountered this on several occasions.

RainWaiv said:
"good at mind games" here. There isn't really much of a science to the stuff. You're spending the first 10-20 turns determining how willing your opponent is to take risks and how impatient they are when it comes to clicking attacks, and after that it's really just intuition. Generally that information is enough to have a decent success rate (at least much more than 50/50).

Worth noting there is a LOT more information to be gathered than just which moves they click. How long they take to choose a turn, what exactly they're predicting you'll do, and even really minor things like when they turn on battle timer (if at all) can help you break down your opponent's decision making.
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Good point. Given that the simulated game gives a 1/9 odds of the defending player winning, and most of us are winning more than .11 of the time when we face off against sucker punch, it’s hard to deny that intuition must play a role. How much it does is hard to say. I still find it difficult to believe that someone can consistently win >50% of the time when defending vs sucker punch. But I’m happy to shown wrong if, say, someone who’s watched blunder vids wants to count the wins and losses.
 
Achohermano said:
I'm gonna take it a step further and say that tbh Clefable is at most a B- Pokémon in the tier and I'm being really nice to it. I honestly don't know how it's still OU and I think it is clearly the most used mon in the ladder that's actually bad.

It can do some stuff (set up rocks. knock off spam, bring wishes to other mons and use sticky barb aganist Roaring Moon. And I guess cheese sweeps) and I gotta say wow, excepting the barb strat (which is not necessary, you can actually deal with Roaring Moon while adding a Pokémon to your team that's better) all the stuff this Pokémon do are completly outclassed by Gliscor XD or like, most defensive Pokémon in the tier.
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clefable is one of the only good defensive fairies in the tier, and unlike tinkaton it isn't weak to ground and has much more longevity thanks to magic guard + reliable recovery. all these traits are entirely unique to clef and can't really be replicated by any other pokemon in the game, let alone by a pokemon that occupies a completely different niche, i think it's more than enough to justify its B+ ranking on the VR.

Achohermano said:
Clefable's Moonblast can't OHKO Tusk (which is honestly pathetic) and due to a low BST you will fall quickly to the defensive side you don't invest EVs into. Moonlight is indeed extremely bad and inconsistent due to Chilly Reception being spammed all over the place, and unlike Alomomola, you don't have regenerator alongside Wish and a pivot move (rip Teleport) to bring safely the Wishes.
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if you stay in on clef with your great tusk and click headlong rush then you will in fact die to moonblast. it's not exactly reliable as a standalone check to great tusk but unless it's running tera ground and kills you with headlong rush then clef is usually gonna get the job done. it also checks zamazenta, iron valiant, samurott-H, and roaring moon quite handily (the latter especially gets fucked over by sticky barb sets) so it's not like you're only using as a buffer to offensive tusk.

i do agree that having to rely on moonlight sucks but that's mostly because i think clefable suffered the most from having less PP on recovery moves, not really because of moonlight as a move. not like slowking wants to risk coming in on knock off anyway

Achohermano said:
Clefable also loses to a lot of Tera's of Pokémon that it should win on paper (Steel Zama, Electric Valiant, Fire Tusk) so it's not even consistent on those MUs.
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zamazenta only wins this 1v1 if it's running heavy slam or sub, otherwise sticky barb clef handily checks it.

if iron valiant is at +1 by the time you come in then this one's actually reasonable, but even then you mostly want to use clefable to check physical or mixed valiant; typically you'd want to have a gking or clodsire in the back on clef balance structures if you need a more reliable counter to CM valiant.

same thing with great tusk assuming it's bulk up, if you have a skarmory in the back then using clef to check tusk isn't necessary. if it's not running bulk up then this isn't really much of an issue to begin with

Achohermano said:
And like, really, Gliscor does everything and even more since Gliscor can also run: Spikes, Toxic Spikes, U-turn, healing at least 25% every time you pivot for free, being one of the most consistent wincons in the tier with SD and finally being inmmune to status for the price of...Clicking Protect once, or pivot, or just not getting knocked turn 1.
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this part just doesn't make any sense to me, clefable and gliscor were never in direct competition with one another at any point in time. they are completely different in how they are used and which pokemon they are able to check, for instance would you be using scor to check taunt moon? or SD valiant?

(edit: started writing this post an hour ago and didn't notice you had already addressed a lot of these points, my mistake)
 
viivian said:
this part just doesn't make any sense to me, clefable and gliscor were never in direct competition with one another at any point in time. they are completely different in how they are used and which pokemon they are able to check, for instance would you be using scor to check taunt moon? or SD valiant?

(edit: started writing this post an hour ago and didn't notice you had already addressed a lot of these points, my mistake)
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I think they could be competing for the role of knock off switch in (gliscor doesn't care about losing the orb after its activated and clefable obviously has magic guard)
 
JackRG said:
I think they could be competing for the role of knock off switch in (gliscor doesn't care about losing the orb after its activated and clefable obviously has magic guard)
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Pairing two absorbers >>>>>>> having just one lmao

A stall/BHS/bulky balance should (usually) NEVER have just one for fear of auto-losing to Weavile or Iron Valiant.

Clef and Scor pair fantastically for this role, and are best supported by corv.
 
Cyber-DJ said:
Me asf taking notes on what not to do when people discuss common mistakes
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uwu mrrp :3c owo

anyways on a completely unrelated note people should use scizor more. it's not the best kyurem answer but it forces kyu out while keeping up pressure

scizor also basically turns every mon that's 30% in the endgame into a dead mon allowing you to obtain checkmate scenarios and it can even become even higher with the standard CB Tera Steel set. try it! it's good!
 
RainebowValiant said:
uwu mrrp :3c owo
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RainebowValiant said:
anyways on a completely unrelated note people should use scizor more. it's not the best kyurem answer but it forces kyu out while keeping up pressure

scizor also basically turns every mon that's 30% in the endgame into a dead mon allowing you to obtain checkmate scenarios and it can even become even higher with the standard CB Tera Steel set. try it! it's good!
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What kind of team does Scizor even fit on? It's been on the back of my mind for months
 
Cyber-DJ said:
...

What kind of team does Scizor even fit on? It's been on the back of my mind for months
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Offense, where it can keep up pressure and priority and being a frailish Steel is a pretty rare role!

Also, Scizor had the rare slow + strong U-Turn, which is great for offense

It competes with Iron Crown the most but Scizor has priority.

Uwu mrrp :3c
 
Cyber-DJ said:
...

What kind of team does Scizor even fit on? It's been on the back of my mind for months
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It fits decent on balance as a wallbreaker but its super matchup fishy (only really wins against kyu/clef/ting-lu) with a choice band. Probably not worth using unless you're super weak to all of those three
 
RainWaiv said:
It fits decent on balance as a wallbreaker but its super matchup fishy (only really wins against kyu/clef/ting-lu) with a choice band. Probably not worth using unless you're super weak to all of those three
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Choice Band Scizor is by far the best set in OU and fits best on offense, as I said earlier. Those teams like a slow pivot with a 60 BP STAB priority move on a Steel-type mon.
 
RainebowValiant said:
Choice Band Scizor is by far the best set in OU and fits best on offense, as I said earlier. Those teams like a slow pivot with a 60 BP STAB priority move on a Steel-type mon.
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Tera Steel Bullet Punch is kind of crazy into offense. It damn near OHKOs Moon, Dragonite (with Scale broken), Pult, Meow, Darkrai. Only minimal chip needed.

Obviously good vs Ival & Kyurem.
 
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